Andy Marte Needs to Become the Next Cliff Lee
February 27, 2009Cavs Take Care of Depleted Spurs
February 28, 2009Instead of having one of our esteemed (ha ha) writers pen a piece with his own initial thoughts on the big news of the day: the Kellen Winslow trade to Tampa Bay for undisclosed draft picks. So without further ado….
Rock – First and foremost, without even knowing the picks, I hate this move. I don’t understand the merit of losing a special player who has arguably been the best player the Browns have had since their return in 1999. I don’t like getting rid of the player with the most heart and desire on the entire team. Any of our long time readers knows how I feel about Winslow. He’s one of my absolute favorite players in the entire NFL. But as a writer, I am capable of separating my feelings out from reality, and I can say that on face value and the merits of this trade alone, I still hate this move by the Browns.
I know the issues with K2. He’s never been healthy. He hired Drew Rosenhaus. He has hinted (though never publicly) that he would like a new contract at some point. I also know the positives the Browns are getting out of this move. They are saving no less than $4 million in cap space by making this move. They are giving themselves a chance to rebuild through the draft to build a more solid foundation for the future. They are picking up anywhere from a 2nd and a 5th to a 2nd and a 3rd. I know all that, and those are all valid points. The reason I hate this, though, is because of what it symbolizes. It raises a surrender flag that says the Browns have no interest in winning in the next couple years.
Say what you will about Steve Heiden or Martin Rucker. I know Browns fans love Heiden, but the guy is a dime-a-dozen player. K2 was a special and unique player and one of the 3 or 4 best tight ends in the NFL. You’re not getting equal talent in Heiden or Rucker, and you’re unlikely to get equal talent with any of these draft picks. The Browns are immediately a worse team for having lost Kellen Winslow. Only time will tell what the Browns end up getting in return and who they use those draft picks are, but it’s clear the Browns are building for 3 or 4 years down the road, and after 10 years of losing, I’m just running out of patience for waiting for this team to be rebuilt. I will give the new regime the benefit of the doubt and I will reserve final judgment until I see how this plays out. But on this day, today, my immediate visceral reaction to this was one of anger and frustration.
Craig – I have mixed feelings. I think this team needed an attitude adjustment and I am extremely concerned about Winslow’s health history and future. Winslow is a fiery competitor who leaves it all out on the field, but I would be remiss if I didn’t remember the distractions he provided on and off the field. Whether it was his personal rivalry with Joey Porter, or yelling at his QB and showing him up when he didn’t get the ball and thought he was open, Winslow wasn’t always team-first.
At the same time, I can’t help but think that the Browns just got worse from a pure talent standpoint. In the Madden universe where teams are ranked on the personnel makeup of the team and not on chemistry, the Browns are clearly worse today than they were yesterday. The only way to make up for this loss is with team chemistry improvements and attitude. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. Anyone want to buy my Winslow jersey? Name your price.
The other missing link will be what contract changes Rosenhaus gets out of TB. It is COMPLETELY possible that their contract demands forced Mangini and Kokinis to work a deal for him. If he ends up getting paid more than Gates and Dallas Clark, we will have our answer.
TD – Immediately what comes to mind is “great, now we officially have nobody who can catch the ball.” I’ll say this for George Kokinis and Eric Mangini, it looks as though they have identified people who will be good soldiers, non-malcontents, and program-followers. If you aren’t on that list (i.e. K2 and Shaun Rogers), you better watch out, because you could either be on your way.
From a pure Football standpoint, you don’t trade a player of Kellen’s vast abilities. The guy has glue-fingers and has played hurt virtually his entire career. That said, he also was a horrific blocker and was good for at least one mental error per game. Like many in his profession, when things are going good, he is a great teammate. But when things are going poorly, he can quickly go the other way. He was a huge distraction in 2008 off the field. Yes, he wasn’t at fault with the staph infection situation, but nevertheless, it was another issue with him that had nothing to do with his production on the field. Then there was his contract situation that has constantly been on his mind. He wants a big extension and with his medical history, how could the Browns possibly give it to him and strap themselves further with the cap?
Are the Browns a better team today without Winslow? Of course not. Can Martin Rucker can step in and fill K2’s big shoes? Who knows. Obviously ManKok has a plan for the future. Lets hope they are right about it.
Scott – My big issue is with the complete flip on the original thoughts that were given to the fans. When Eric Mangini/George Kokinis came to Cleveland, they said that the team was “closer to the 10-6” version than the one that went 4-12.
They liked what we have/had at the skill positions, and thought that we would compete for the division in 2009.
This is obviously no longer the case as they traded away the one player that the fans were able to get behind through all of the drama. He gave it his all every down. He was the surest hands on the field at all times.
And now he’s gone for draft picks, signaling the rebuilding process. The second rebuild in five years.
Wonderful.
DP – The who catches the ball issue. I echo everyone’s sentiments there.
More importantly to me, I hate the notion of trading the known for the unknown of draft picks, ESPECIALLY when we don’t really have a track record of drafting for these guys, and have no real clue how prepared they are to run this year’s draft, given their previous positions. For example, Savage struggled moreso in his first draft here than in others, I think, primarily because of the fact that he arrived to the Browns late and didn’t have as much prep time to get things up and running. To give up a player like Winslow for a couple of picks when we might have that same situation is risky at best, to me.
Further, if you want “team first” guys, I’ve always felt like for all of his foibles Winslow was that. Dude played hurt every single game, and was Pro-Bowl caliber any time he was on the field. That’s called giving it up for the team.
72 Comments
Wow, you guys have a pretty pessimistic view of this deal. I think there are a few factors that must be considered.
1)That knee was not ever going to be 100%. Who knows how many years he even had left at 90%, which Winslow himself admitted was the healthiest he would ever be.
2)Winslow was gearing up or a holdout. You know Rosehaus was salivating at the thought of going after a rookie GM. Its better to lose him now for picks then later for nothing.
Look, Winslow had alot of heart and talent. But the fact remains that he was damaged goods. Its all about selling high, and who knows what a money hungry Winslow in the last year of his deal would have brought in return next year.
Sorry guys but I 100% love this move. Even last year he was going through major knee pain. You simply do not have the kind of physical problems he has had and last for much longer in the NFL. Sure he has heart but he also has a big freaking mouth and please name me one team who is always solid carrying players with big mouths? If they got a 2nd this year and 5th next year for him that is great. I look for Rucker to seemlessly fall right into his spot. How many me first TE’s has NE have? Pittspuke? A myriad of other good teams? One last thing I thing everyone over looks is his presence in the huddle. It was not positive. How many time’s was he pulling a TO when he thought he should have thrown the ball. Too many. He won’t me missed.
@ BrianRut
I think you nailed it… The only way to look at this is Winslow was “damaged goods.” Not only did K2 want to get paid, but I don’t think he was worth the money. I loved his heart and soul he gave when he was on the field, but collecting draft picks is the smarter decision.
Sorry for all the typo’s.
I don’t mind the trade as much as what it signals. I was told there’d be punch and pie, and now all I think we’re getting is another two years (at the minimum) of top-ten draft picks.
Steve Heiden is a “dime a dozen player”? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There goes Rock’s credibility out the window.
Heiden is a WAY better blocker (a skill that can’t be emphasized enough at tight end), arguably has better hands (KWII seemed to be taking after Braylon in drops lately), and doesn’t get flagged for pushing off pratically once or twice a game- usually at the worst time. I’ll take a solid TE over a guy who’s pedigree won him the job but has been a letdown ever since his motorcycle accident.
I have no problem with this trade at all.
Waiting for next year
… where we are waiting for next year
… where we are discussing the new regimen and how the Browns are getting blown up yet again.
@Brad: Pretty sure Arizona had 2 guys in Edge and Boldin who have very big mouths and made it to the SB, only to be robbed.
Brad,
You’re comparing apples to oranges with the NE/PITT “me first” TE comparison. Fact still remains: me first or not, Heath Miller and Ben Watson are BOTH light-years better than any TE the Browns have on their roster. Sorry, that doesn’t fly with me.
Plus, I for one have never really thought of Winslow as a completely “me first” player. A “me first” player wouldn’t go out every week and do what he does.
Sure he has heart but he also has a big freaking mouth and please name me one team who is always solid carrying players with big mouths?
Baltimore.
I think the new management has every right to get rid of the players they deem problematic. If K2 was one of those, then fine. I just hope they get SOME sort of benefit from it via the draft picks. Are they in this year’s draft? Otherwise we won’t see any benefit for a long time.
Let’s all think: what would danny ferry do?
Viva la Bombay and tonic.
@ Scott – Viva La Resitance
My favorite player gone and our best set of hands in the division. First day at practice as a rookie he is blowing people up saying he only knows how to practice and play hard. Yes his frustration showed – he was open and not dropping passes and DA was forcing the ball to edward scissorhands. I was pissed,too!! We didnt want Pioli because he said we needed to blow up the organization and start over. Isnt that what Mangini is doing? Man, just tell the paying customers anything!
DP, I think Winslow is me first the same way Keyshawn was. He plays his butt off, but he is arrogant in thinking that he always needs the ball more than he is getting it. I also agree wholeheartedly with the idea that Winslow was sometimes a distraction on the field by being a distraction in the huddle and sometimes on the sidelines. His goals were right, but he didn’t always help the team with his methods.
I dont know scott. I share your concerns about trading K2, and I was a huge supporter, but without him they had a few solid wins (NYG and JAC). I was freaking out when I first heard this, and still think they should have traded Braylon instead, but this may not be that bad of a move for the future. I think that this team still has a few pieces to gear up and make another run in 2 years.
i think im gonna cry
Can anyone, off the top of their heads, name the tight end for the Patriots? What about the Giants (Boss?)? Or the Cardinals? I actually think it’s an overrated position in some respects.
A tight end is, ultimately, an offensive lineman that can catch. It’s nice to have a great tight end, and the Browns’ lack of playmakers certainly made Winslow seem awfully important, but you can win with a tight end that’s a good blocker and an above average receiver. In fact, of the elite tight ends, only Antonio Gates is on a consistent winner.
I’ll miss Winslow. I loved the guy. But tight end is not a position a team should invest large chunks of cap space in.
@IRB?: Sweet, sweet saphire…
@bobby: Exactly. Two years. When the opening interviews said that this team could contend now.
Sean in DC:
who’s pedigree won him the job but has been a letdown ever since his motorcycle accident.
Speaking of saying so long to credibility…
This might be the most assinine thing I’ve ever read, and deep down I think you know it. A letdown? The only letdown he ever created in my brain was, “If he’s this good now, imagine how good he would have been.”
It’s tough to grade the trade without knowing the draft capabilities of our management but as of now I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say I like the move. As already mentioned, Winslow definately will be missed but he couldn’t block, wants to get paid big, and his [insert any body part here] is about to fall off. I commend his heart but it’s only a positive that somebody plays through injuries if he isn’t ALWAYS injured.
Quinn did seem to lean on K2 though so lets hope he learns how to throw to WRs.
The Browns stink with him, and they will stink without him.
Has K2 ever been on a Browns team that beat the Steelers? (Just wondering not trying to make a point).
Um, have you guys heard Winslow’s comments (interviews) today? You’re not giving enough weight to the fact that he wanted the hell out of here.
While you recognize that he hired Drew Rosenhaus, you’re also not giving due credit here. He may not have “publicly” demanded a new contract, but there are a few things we know:
1. An agent doesn’t get paid until he negotiates a new contract.
2. Drew Rosenhaus gets his players moved, and gets them new contracts.
I understand the outcry about who’s going to catch the ball, and that you can’t get a K2-equivalent talent in the 2nd round… but I think Mankok looked at this and decided the options were to move him now and strike while the iron is hot…
Or wait until Winslow is doing sit-ups in his front yard with Drew yelling “next question!” at the reporters.
And aside from that, if he gets that Dallas Clark contract that he wanted… is he worth clearing other players to fit under the cap? Is it worth paying a possession/slot receiver (which is what K2 has evolved into, albeit a very good one) Dallas Clark money? When he could completely break down at any time? Dude’s body is 25 going on 40.
The more this deal sinks in, the more I’m liking it. We got a 2nd and 5th for a guy that wanted nothing to do with playing in Cleveland anymore. Good for Mankok getting what they did.
Sorry if I repeated other comments, there was only one on the page when it loaded…
#16,
Re: the Cardinals, they also have two Pro-Bowl WRs.
I would say this: over the last five years, can you name me a solid WR on the Chargers? The Chiefs? The Falcons when they had Crumpler (So, Roddy White’s one good year doesn’t count)?
If it’s a second rounder I’m good.
Scott, I share your frustration about yet another rebuild, but if the last three regimes were inexperienced and/or incompetent, do you want Kokinis listening to us? Not me. I want him to be right but also be confident to set the roster and the attitude, as he sees fit. Lerner tossed these guys the keys and paddled back across the pond, and I don’t want them licking their fingers and feeling which way the fan wind is blowing. I’d rather they boldly do what they feel they should and let’s get it over with. Of course, a press conference explaining would be nice.
And BTW, what is a fifth rounder? A guy who might survive the last cut and play special teams? Why are we even talking about the lower pick? (Please don’t mention Tom Brady – we don’t get those in Cleveland, we get Andrew Hoffman or whatever his name was).
and anyone who thinks the Browns are rebuilding because they are trading their Tight End, well that just makes me laugh.
Good takes guys…….thanks.
Except for one thing……Mankok doesn’t have 3/4 years, they better start winning immediately with this weak schedule along the lines of many other NFL team that turn the ship around quickly with proper leadership. Mankok are both here under three year contracts-they better show something in years one and two. Plain and simple.
Rock……you are dead on with Heiden being a “dime a dozen player”…..particularly since he’s now a ten year vet with knee and back problems-don’t even tell me any team would count on that as a starting tight end. He is what he is……..a decent backup TE/H back who can catch a ball in the flats. Nothing more, nothing less. Rucker is anybody’s guess.
What if it’s a third and sixth rounder, as has been reported out of Tampa??
K2=T.O. simple as that. No one can question how hard either guy plays on the field or through injury (T.O. in the super bowl) but their teams are always worse for the headaches and cancer they cause in the locker room.
@RandyOSU – “Mankok are both here under three year contracts”
Is that true? Every report I saw was that they were 4-yr deals. And that’s not counting the customary extension Lerner will give them before they’re fired…
It really sounds like K2 was going to hold out and force a contract that he wasn’t worth. I love that the Browns were able to move him. Even if it is for a 3rd round pick
Please…….K2 is no TO. K2 is a warrior-lays it all out on the field. TO is all about his own stats………and nothing more. He gator arms many a pass over the middle. You can like or not like this trade…..but please don’t start disparaging K2-he played his arse off for this city in less than desired conditions.
mj-you could be right…….perhaps it is 4 years (thought it was three). Same point holds in either case…….they need to show spark in years one and two………I don’t like hearing fans express any less expectations.
Maybe K2 isn’t as bad as T.O. but they have a lot of the same situations and off the field drama. AND the same agent…. When K2 was crying that Phil Savage didn’t come see him at the hospital I almost threw up!!
From the Tampa Tribune:
The Buccaneers acquired Winslow, 25, a Pro Bowl tight end with Cleveland, after trading what is believed to be this year’s second-round pick plus other undisclosed picks to the Browns.
TO also gutted out the playoff game in philly with a bum ankle I believe. One thing that TO and K2 have in common today is their agent. I am betting this move has everything to do with K2’s health history and contract demands through Drew Rosenhaus.
If they could have just kept K2 on his current contract, I am guessing he would still be here.
What is K2 worth? Is he worth Dallas Clark money? 6 years and $36-$41 million depending on where you read.
@ MacNip – “It really sounds like K2 was going to hold out and force a contract that he wasn’t worth.”
I agree. That’s a given when Rosenhaus is hired.
That is also the problem with the site editors’ collective comments. Rock, Scott, DP, TD, Craig… all seem to assume that K2 wanted to be here and would continue to perform per his contract, when it is more likely that Kokinis’ only option was to move the player, in which case it was a wise decision to act now (Craig notes that the jury is out until we see what K2’s reworked contract value will be, but even that may not have been necessary if Rosenhaus was going to force K2 out of town.)
Well, I just looked up Tampa’s cap space… is it any wonder that K2 was traded to TB? They have the most in the league at an estimated $61 million under the cap.
When a team gets a new coach and a new GM in the same year, it’s going to be rebuilt. I’m not sure how many years K2 had on his current contract, but I ‘m thinking that it would take longer than that number of years for the Browns to be seriously competitive, and so K2 wouldn’t be part of it anyhow when it finally happens. So although I hate to see him go, I think on balance it’s a smart move.
Now if we can only con someon into a #1 for Shaun Rogers…..’cause we KNOW he’s got one, maybe two more years left max at his current ability level…
Even if only Rick Grayshock himself can read this comment, I have no problem with the move. When new managment takes over, nobody is untouchable. They are clearly trying to leverage picks and it was clear a year ago that the offense (what little offense there was) did not lose a step with Winslow out of the fold.
Yea, K2 will likely get a pretty big deal with the Bucs. No doubting that.
This is definitely not going to be the last trade that we’re going to be hearing about.
At least we can now add another $5 million(approx) to our cap for this year.
Does anyone think they will try to move up into the 1st with one of their 2nd rd picks?
who knows?
Never thought we would get a 2 and a 5 for him. Great trade! He was slow, did not block, and could not run after the catch. All hype. I hope he passes his physical. He’s not an every down player and will probably be injured again this season.
@ Scott – I plan on drinking enough Mumbai Sapphire tonight that I wake up a slumdog millionaire.
If it’s this years second rounder plus undisclosed pickS then it might be a solid trade, even if it’s two late rounders.
Hey, editors of WFNY: 43 comments in about 90 minutes — is this a record?
Terry Pluto has a short blurb with pros/cons for K2:
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2009/02/terry_plutos_blog_trading_kell.html
@Randy: Most everything I’ve seen in the last 30 minutes says 2nd rounder this year, 5th next year. All I know from living down here is the Trib is not always the hardiest source, for what it’s worth, but that 2nd rounder seems like a definite.
I understand the arguments people are making about the contract and the injuries and tying up money and such, and they make sense. I just hate to see a guy who showed more heart than just about anyone else over the past few years, a genuine talent, sent packing. Probably for the best, but I hate that the white flag is going up so soon: rebuilding is getting old, even when it’s expected.
@IRB?: just picked up some Jameson Gold Reserve here: slainte!