LeBron and Shaq – A Match Made In Purgatory

Shaquille O'Neal and LeBron James

I was tired last night, and I went to bed at 10:45 pm. I had no clue a Cavaliers trade was imminent. So when I woke up this morning, I looked at my phone and was surprised to see a bunch of texts and emails waiting for me. I knew something had happened. Before I could even check the first text message, I heard the news on ESPN. The Cavaliers made waves overnight as they traded Sasha Pavlovic, Ben Wallace, a 2nd round pick, and some benjamins to the Suns for Shaquille O’Neal.

It’s hard to even know where to begin when thinking about this deal. I mean, on face value Danny Ferry just shipped off 2 players who offered nothing to the Cavs and who were barely even part of the rotation by the end of the season, for a player Slam Magazine just last month named as the 4th best player of all time. Nobody would have you believe the version of Shaq the Cavaliers are getting is the same player as the guy listed as #4 on that list, but this is still a player who just last season averaged 17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, shot 60.9% from the field, and had a PER of 22.3. So yeah, the Cavaliers just got a little bit better. You could add Pavlovic and Wallace’s production together, double it (maybe even triple it), and still not get the numbers Shaq put up last year as a 36 year old veteran. But what will the Cavs be getting in this 37 year old version of Shaq, and how will he fit on this team? Is this really the missing piece of the puzzle? Was this really the best Danny Ferry could get for Wallace’s expiring contract and for Pavlovic’s super-savings contract? There are really 2 sides of this to look at….on court issues and off court issues.   

We’ll start with the on court issues. It’s pretty hard to argue with the production the Cavaliers are getting in this trade. If anyone is concerned about the Cavaliers losing Ben Wallace or Sasha Pavlovic, then they probably didn’t watch the Cavaliers play too much last year. Ben Wallace looked rejuvenated for, oh, about the first month of the season. After that, he had little left to give the Cavaliers. He gambled too much on defense and overestimated his own limited athleticism. His rebounding was a bad joke, and his offense was even less funny to Cavs fans. I always liked Ben Wallace as a person and I loved having his quiet leadership on the team. I’ll miss that about him. But strictly sticking to on the court issues, Ben Wallace is far past his prime. As for Sasha Pavlovic, well, he’s good for one good game every 4 or 5 times out there. He has never been consistent enough of a player to make a strong positive impact on the Cavaliers, and even his status as a “big defender” on the Cavs last year was really more a function of his status as the only guard with size, rather than about him actually being a good defender.

Shaq may be slow these days, but whereas that was a big hindrance on what Phoenix was trying to do offensively, it will actually fit in with Cleveland’s offensive identity. The Cavaliers have sorely, and I mean sorely, lacked an inside scoring presence the last couple years. Joe Smith and Anderson Varejao have pretty much by default been the Cavaliers best inside options the past couple years, but neither one can give the Cavaliers the kind of offensive post presence that Shaq will give. How many times the past couple years have we seen LeBron use his ability to draw defenders to feed the ball inside the post to someone only to see them either mishandle the pass or miss the resulting shot? Well, that’s not going to happen with Shaq there. If LeBron can get the ball to Shaq in position to score (and lets face it, we know he will), Shaq is going to finish the play. With Shaq’s inside scoring, LeBron’s ability to drive, distribute, and score, and Mo Williams’ ability to knock down outside shots, the Cavaliers now have a 3 pronged offensive attack. Bringing Zydrunas Ilgauskas off the bench will be an adjustment for sure, but it’s hard to not feel good about Z and Shaq’s ability to cut into each other’s minutes and keep each other fresh. We’ve seen Z’s skills decline sharply the last 2 seasons, but his production and efficiency levels have not been that far behind Shaq’s the last couple years. When Shaq goes to the bench now, there won’t be that sharp of a drop in production with Z coming in. There will be a difference stylistically of course, but not in terms of pure output.

There will be plenty of adjustments that will need to be made, and there will definitely be a rough period of adaptation as the Cavaliers get used to playing with Shaq. He’s going to demand the ball at times, he’s going to slow down the offense at times, he’s going to use up some of LeBron and Delonte’s driving lanes. All those concerns are real concerns. But they’ve been issues with Shaquille his whole career and teams have always found ways to use him to their advantage and to win championships. The onus will now fall on Mike Brown to make sure the Cavaliers find a way to best use Shaq on offense.

Defensively is where the biggest question marks come into play for me. Are the Cavaliers really any more suited for defending the Orlando Magic’s pick and roll attack today than they were a few weeks ago? Absolutely not. What Shaq can do that the Cavaliers couldn’t do last year, though, is defend Dwight Howard (somewhat) one on one. Not having to double Howard constantly will definitely help the Cavaliers not have to chase Orlando’s shooters around the perimeter, which is a good thing.

Shaq and Howard have faced each other 7 times in the past, and for the most part Shaq has had the upper hand statistically. Overall, Shaq averages 19.1 pts, 8.3 rebounds, 1.6 blocks and shoots 62.1% from the field against Howard. For his part, Dwight averages 15.3 points, 10.4 rebounds, 0.7 blocks, and shoots 55.6% from the field against Shaq’s teams. If you just look from 2007 through 2009, they have played each other 3 times. Shaq averaged 19.67 points, 7.0 rebounds and 0.67 blocks, while Howard has averaged 18.33 points, 10.67 rebounds, and 1.0 blocks. So the margin is closing. Overall, Shaq is 3-4 against Howard’s teams and is 0-3 in the last 3 matchups. You have to go back to April 9, 2006 to find the last time Shaq’s team beat Howard’s team.

And lets not forget the 2008 NBA Champions, either. It would be a mistake to overlook Boston’s role in the Eastern Conference. Over the last few years, Kevin Garnett has simply abused Shaq’s teams head to head. In the 5 games head to head since Garnett joined Boston, Shaq has average just 13.2 points per game to KG’s 22.8 ppg. Shaq’s teams are 1-4 in those games. You have to be a little concerned about those numbers, but at the same time, it’s important to remember that for most of these games Shaq was playing on mediocre teams. Now that he will be paired with LeBron James and playing on a real contender for the first time since he won the title with Wade in Miami, the Cavaliers are obviously hoping the results will even out.

There are definitely going to be some question marks on the court with adding Shaq, but overall the Cavaliers are better team today for having him. I don’t think there’s any way to doubt that. And when a team that won 66 games last year finds a way to improve itself, you should feel good about that. The bigger issue with bringing in Shaq is off the court, and that’s where the real circus will play itself out.

The Cavaliers now have 2 of the largest personalities in the NBA in LeBron and Shaq on the same team. It raises all kinds of questions. Who is the leader of this team? Will Shaq really defer to a 24 year old LeBron James? Will LeBron really be able to give orders to Shaq? The media scrutiny and intensity was going to be overwhelming this year as it was with LeBron possibly becoming a free agent in the off season, but now it is going to be off the charts. It’s hard to even describe how mammoth this is in scope, bringing in someone like Shaq to play with LeBron.

All last season we praised the Cavaliers for their uncanny chemistry together. Now that Shaq is added to the equation, will that chemistry be disrupted? There’s no question that Shaq has been a distraction everywhere he’s been. It hasn’t always been his fault, as at times he is a distraction just because of his stature as one of the 5 greatest NBA players of all time, but often times it is his fault. Shaq loves to dish out quotes to the media. He loves to put his name in stories by making controversial tweets through his Twitter account. He likes to be the center of attention and he craves the spotlight. How will that style mesh with LeBron in Cleveland? Only time will tell.

At the end of the day, though, we can talk about all these issues and what Shaq gives the Cavs and what he takes away from them. The main feeling I get from this trade, though, is a feeling of being underwhelmed. This trade doesn’t excite me. I’m not convinced this trade suddenly makes the Cavaliers the team to beat in the East, let alone in the NBA. I’m not convinced this trade was really the best Danny Ferry could get for Wallace and Pavlovic. Rather than building a team that will impress LeBron for years to come, the Cavaliers instead made the push to try to salvage one more rental year out of Shaq to see if he could bring a title to Cleveland. Does this mean Ferry thinks this is the last year LeBron will be in Cleveland and was thus desperate to make one final stand? Or does it simply mean at this point in time Ferry isn’t willing to sacrifice future cap space to sign another star to play with LeBron, and thus decided Shaq was the best player with an expiring contract that he could acquire?

This trade is an exciting trade from a marketing and media standpoint, but in terms of affecting the Cavaliers, I’m not sure it really changes anything. I still think the Cavaliers will have huge matchup problems with both the Lakers and the Magic (assuming Ariza, Odom, and Turkoglu all stay put), and I don’t think this changes the future of the Cavaliers as far as LeBron James is concerned one way or the other. The good news is that if Shaq isn’t fitting in with this team and if the trade clearly isn’t working come January or February, Danny Ferry will still have a $20 million expiring contract in Shaq that he can try to trade. This move doesn’t close out any options for the Cavaliers. They still have to re-sign AV or find a way to bring in someone like Charlie Villanueva. They still need to find some size on the wings for both defense and offense. They still have their Mid-Level Exception to use to sign a veteran free agent. They still have the potential to make a move or two tonight in the draft. It’s hard to imagine feeling underwhelmed by an entity as enormous as Shaq (in all ways), but this morning, that’s essentially exactly how I feel.

Photo: Bill Baptist – NBAE/Getty Images

  • dwhit

    I don’t think Shaq is guarding KG anyways. You need Andy (or whoever we bring in as our starting PF) to guard Garnett, and Shaq’s job would be to shutdown Perkins and to keep him off the glass. Shaq is too big and slow to guard Garnett.

    I would love to see us use the MLE on Josh Childress as we talk about long, athletic wings, but we potentially may want someone who can shoot a little better than Childress.

  • http://sonsofnev.wordpress.com The Seaward

    I think the “who’s team is this” junk is pretty overrated in terms of a storyline. In 05-06, Shaq was adamant that it was D-Wade’s team; why would it be any different here?

  • http://www.jrosen.wordpress.com Jacob Rosen

    @1 dwhit – I love the Childress idea if we can manage to bring him back here from Europe. He would be a phenomenal guy to bring in, see what he can still do off the bench for a playoff team, and see if he is a keeper for the long-term. If the Cavaliers manage to sign him and draft a solid big man later tonight, then I will finally start to get excited for this off-season.

  • steve

    I think you could have saved yourself a 2000 words and just went with “underwhelmed.”

    usually thats how I have felt when the Cavs have supposedly “finally got some help for lebron”

  • adam

    peep my tweet from earlier… i am lobbying charlie V, childress, chandler and of course bosh and dwade on twitter and you should too!

    Now that the @cavs have @THE_REAL_SHAQ who wouldnt want to play in Cleveland?!@dwadeofficial @chrisbosh @CV31 @JChillin @tysonchandler
    about 3 hours ago from web

  • Charlie

    Everyone is wondering who else Ferry could have gotten with these contracts but honestly what were the options? There’s not some giant hiding in a cave no one knows about. All the options were pretty clear. It’s easy to throw out names but the job of making trades work is not for the layman. It’s healthy to second-guess but annoying to ignorantly criticize. (That comment is not directed towards RockKing, it’s directed towards everyone who just spouts out that talking point without thinking about it.)

  • Gregg

    From Windhorst’s twitter:

    “Cavs aren’t done. They may still look to move up tonight and next week they will be active in free agency. More coming, D.Gilbert spending”

    I think a lot will depend on what other moves we make. If Shaq is it then I am also a little underwhelmed.

  • kevin

    I love how folks say the DF could have done better with the Wallace/Pavs contracts but offer no alternative themselves. Do you really think that this is the only option DF looked at? I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt and I will give him it until at least the all star break.

    You know what I think will help the Cavs beat the Magic (if they get there again) next year? The Magic not shooting out of their minds for a week and a half. You know, like they did (or didn’t do I guess) against the Lakers.

    And let’s not forget, Lebron keeps getting better and better and better.

    I agree there is still some work to be done, but the Cavs are a hell of a lot better today.

  • AMC

    One thing that I think we need to look at closely is the timing of all of this. Some people have been spinning the idea that Ferry pulled this trigger on this deal too quickly and that we could have gotten more for Wallace and Sasha. Leaving aside the question of whether we truly could have gotten more (and as some have pointed out – I’m not sure we could have), I think we have to look at the timing of this in another way:

    Ferry pulled the trigger because he wanted Shaq to be a Cavalier BEFORE free agency. He wanted this as leverage in the AV talks and he wanted it as a draw to potential free agents, who may now be willing to take a MLE deal in this economy to team up with LeBron and Shaq to chase a ring. Ferry is sending a message with this deal to potential free agents. Windhorst says the Cavs aren’t done and I believe him.

    I see why Rock is saying that he is underwhelmed by this deal. I don’t know if I agree with that, but I do think that Ferry is setting the table here for the other moves he’s planning. This offseason is FAR from over.

  • kevin

    Plus, if Wallace does retire, he would not longer be a tradeable piece anymore, right?

    And look what Wally’s “priceless” expiring deal got us last year.

    So people want DF to act, but not too soon, but before Lebron leaves, but after the draft, but don’t give up too much, but leave room under the cap for next year, but not too old of a player, but not more than a year left on his deal.

    OK, I made myself tired.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com/ Rick

    If you really think Wallace was going to just retire and walk away from $14 million you are crazy. He would have asked for a buyout, and the Cavs would have then traded him. No way he just up and walked away from that money when he could get some of it by just waiting around for a trade to happen.

  • The Other Tim

    …and once Shaq leaves, our Chinese investors plug Yao in to replace him.

  • Wil

    Wow…..I can tell you are truly a Cleveland fan…….by your eternal pessimism.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com/ Rick

    @ AMC- I fail to see how this gives the Cavs any leverage at all with Andy. Andy is the starting PF on this team without question since Wallace is gone. And Varejao wouldn’t count as a MLE, because he is already on the team. They can sign him to whatever deal they want, but will have to pay luxury taxes.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    RE: Childress…..he’s still a restricted free agent. If the Cavs signed him with the MLE, the Hawks would almost certainly match it.

    @kevin: Nobody saw the Mo Williams trade coming. Nobody saw the Larry Hughes for Ben Wallace trade coming. We don’t know what offers are out there, but there’s generally prudence for patience. Suppose Amare becomes available. He’s better than Shaq. Suppose the Raptors eventually decide to trade Bosh. He’s better than Shaq. I’m sorry, you may think this was the best Ferry could do, I’m not. And I’m about as big of a Ferry supporter as you’re gonna find, too. I just think he did this trade mostly to appease LeBron, who I am hearing was pretty insistent to Cavs management that they go out and get Shaq.

    Finally, regarding Wallace retiring….Rick nailed it. Wallace isn’t going to retire. But if he does, yes, the Cavs could still trade him. If the Cavs wanted to, they could have paid him his full $14 million and then used the contract to trade. Whichever team took on his contract could then turn around and offer him a buyout, and save themselves even more upfront. So, if he really did retire, he probably would have been even MORE tradeable to a team looking to cut salary.

    And your comment about Wally is off, too. The Cavs could have had Shaq for Wally, but they decided not to trade Wally. Who knows what other deals Ferry turned down last year.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    @Rick: I agree totally, but Windhorst said something similar….about how AV is more expendable now. I just don’t see it at all.

    “But there is no doubt this gives the Cavs leverage in contract talks and opens up options if Andy’s price is too high. ” – http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/06/the_cavs_have_shaq_so_what_is.html

    Makes no sense to me.

  • kevin

    Rock and Rick,

    Thanks for the replys. Definitely see your point(s) I just thinnk we should wait the entire offseason before judging this one part.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com/ Rick

    Right Rock- if they lose Andy they have to replace him AND sign their wing defender AND find another guard. All with just the MLE. Can you say price gauge?

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com/ Rick

    @ Kevin- now if we waited the entire off season to give you our thoughts on the Shaq trade there would be a revolt here!

  • kevin

    I agree Rick. See, you guys can’t win just like poor ol’ Danny Ferry!

    I guess you could have analyzed it, given yor thoughts, but then said you’d give it an incomplete grade until the draft and free agency are over.

    Now stop keeping me from my work!

  • Harv 21

    I love Ferry … for giving us the first half-interesting moment in Cleveland sports since the afternoon of Game 6 of the ECF. Breathless reports from Browns voluntary off-season workouts and minicamps don’t do it for me.

  • Swig

    Rock,
    We offered Wally. I didn’t think there was any interest from Phoenix in accepting just Wally.

  • whipjacka

    We brought in a 19 and 9 guy while shipping a retired player and benchwarmer.

    The Cavs were looking for a good player with a limited contract run. I cant think of anyone better.

    Also, we need to stop thinking in therms of ‘will this help us stop the magic'; we don’t even know if we will play the magic next season. We all thought we would meet the Celtics in the ECF this past year, but did we?

    Overall, this is a great trade. This offseason we needed to address our big men issues and we just did.

  • AMC

    @ Rick –
    The leverage with AV is that now Z moves to the bench and we know he can be a factor there as opposed to Wallace who was a complete question mark even if he retired. Ferry can also argue that he can get a quick fix at the PF position by adding Sheed. I’m not saying Fegan and AV will buy it, but the Cavs do have more leverage now than they did before acquiring Shaq.

    And I stand by my point that the Cavs are going to attract the attention of FA’s all over the league with Shaq now teaming with LeBron.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com/ Rick

    @ AMC
    We know Z can be a factor coming off the bench? He still is coming in to play center, not PF. He isn’t quick enough to match up with PFs. And Z is a player that needs a rhythm to be effective. Coming off the bench will be an adjustment for him.

  • Omega King

    I think that it’s strange that everyone is poo-pooing this trade. I have a few points that I think are relevant to this:

    1. If Orlando shoots 38% from 3 in the ECFs, we’re psyched because our championship team just got better. We won 66 games, people, and were a super-hot perimeter shooting team away from the finals. We gave up hardly anything for a guy that should provide some contribution.

    2. Everyone wonders if Shaq will clog the lanes. Ask D-Wade circa 2006 how Shaq clogged the lanes. I believe Wade was able to get to the rim at will.

    3. We have an owner in the Cavs that is willing to SPEND MONEY TO WIN, and a GM that seems to have an idea on what he’s doing.

    4. Shaq is fun to watch. He really is. And with a young, hungy player on his team (see Bryant, Kobe and Wade, Dwayne), he has proven he is willing to do what it takes to win CHAMPIONSHIPS.

    5. We made this trade because LeBron wanted it. If we don’t, you may be 249275924953 times more upset next year if LeBron walks. So, me? I’m fine with it. In fact, I’m thrilled. He’ll have all of the offseason to work into the offense, and it should be a fun ride.

    WOOOO! Go CAVS!!

  • AMC

    Interesting little development reported by Windy – Cavs will keep tonights 2nd round pick b/c of technicality in the deal w/ Miami for DJ last year. http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2009/06/nba_approves_trade_making_shaq.html

  • Boomhauer

    I’m sorry, but there was no way that Toronto was going to trade Bosh for Wallace and Pavlovic’s expiring contracts. Even if the Cavs threw in Hickson and Delonte, it still wouldn’t as good as the packages of young players that other teams will be able to offer the Raps.
    Bosh isn’t coming here. Not as a free agent and not in a trade. Accept it.

  • AMC

    @ Rick – my point is that we have more big man depth now. Again, I’m not saying this is going to conclusively change the AV negotiation, just that it could be a factor.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com Denny

    @ # 26 – Wade was able to get fouled at will. LOLOLOL Yea Shaq might not clog the lane as much as people think, but the offense will be slower.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    Anyone who thinks Shaq doesn’t clog lanes these days didn’t watch him play in Phoenix last year. “Ask D-Wade circa 2006 how Shaq clogged the lanes.” Please. That was 2006…..3 years ago. What does that have to do with right now? In 1991 Michael Jordan was NBA Finals MVP….should the Cavs see if they can sign him, too? Maybe they should ask John Havlicek about Bill Russell’s value in the 1965 Finals. Should the Cavs try to trade for Russell?

    Lets stick to relevant points here, people. This is 2009/10, and the Shaq the Cavaliers just acquired is not the same Shaq that was winning Championships almost every year. He is older, slower, and he does clog the lanes these days. This doesn’t have to be a problem for the Cavaliers. They could just adjust to it and find a way to make it work. But if they ignore it, as some commenters would seem to suggest, it’s not going to work well for the Cavaliers at all.

  • Harv 21

    Re off-court issues, every out of town reporter will be asking Shaq if LeBron is staying or should stay. Shaq needs lots of attention. Shaq never met a mic he didn’t like. Better brace ourselves for the stuff that will pour out of his mouth nightly, and the rumors that it will spawn.

  • AMC

    Had a random thought – this now means that the Cavs have the two most difficult players in the NBA to officiate. Expect LOTS of foul shots (and lots of no calls).

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    Excellent call, AMC. No question the Cavs are going to be the center of a lot of crying about officiating. Both in their favor and against them.

  • ozward

    dude,

    you will be underwhelmed anytime you view a trade from a “missing piece” perspective.

    the truth is that many pieces are necessary for this to work.

    to assume this is the end of moves ferry makes in the offseason is to be underwhelmed no matter who we bring in for the nothing we gave up.

    is there no place to simply be excited to see lebron play with shaq? how can we assume we’ll see the magic, or even the same magic, in the playoffs next year.

    this trade, barring total trainwreck, simply makes the next season incredibly exciting. it’s not the missing piece or the final move they’ll make, and to assume so is a most pessimistic way to look at it.

    it’s ****ing shaq! with lebron! are you serious?!

    cannot wait.

  • ozward

    you also neglected the idea of motivation for shaq. we all know how important legacy is to him.

    to go out on a championship with lbj, after kobe and wade? that’s leged cement right there.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    This is the sound of me slamming my head into my desk.

    Nowhere in this entire article did I even remotely suggest that this was the last move Ferry was going to make. My goodness. Please read before you comment. Thank you.

  • http://www.zfcomics.com dgriff13

    as always, cautiously optimistic over here… “OMG! Shaq! No wait…. 38-year-old Shaq. umm….Yay?” I get the “underwhelmed” attitude, man.

    I’m just glad Ferry didn’t dish Delonte, I was hearing that rumor. I woulda been PISSED. And old Shaq for 2 guys I’m not gonna miss, it’s an improvement. Let’s see what other deal(s) Ferry is gonna pull off…

    It’s gonna be a long summer of Tribe & Browns embarrassment…. I hate waiting!

  • bobby

    Rock, with all do respect, I just don’t feel the Cavs would get Amare or Bosh IF they come available with what they gave up for Shaq. Sasha is garbage, and Shaq is definitely better then Wallace. I see where you might want more, but they did get better, and thats the real key factor. Also, they keep the 2nd pick which could prove nive when trying to maneuver this draft tonight. If they can get into the top 15, get a top 5 PG or a forward like Earl Clark, then get a guy like ‘sheed or Charlie V and the Cavs would have a solied team.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    I’m with you, Griff. Trading Delonte would have been unforgivable, unless it was a star who was going to help us for more than one year.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    Of course the Cavs couldn’t get Bosh for JUST expiring contracts. But they would certainly help. They would have to be included at some point just to even out the trade value of the contracts.

  • ozward

    @rockking,

    i read the entire post. it was your tone that intimated the idea that this was all ferry would do.

    it feels unnecessarily negative. as if getting shaq is good, but it’s not something to be enthusiastic about. which is a fine opinion to have, it’s the cleveland way…

    and that’s the tone and point i tried to make w/ my previous post.

    sorry i didn’t study your disertation before making a comment on your blog.

    and i’m somewhat sorry i made a comment at all.

    don’t sue your customers.

  • steve

    for pure entertainment this trade was amazing.

    for team needs this trade barely improves us.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com RockKing

    Negative? I never said I don’t like this trade. In fact, push comes to shove, I like it more than I dislike. I’m sorry I’m not doing backflips over getting a 37 year old guy who is a shell of what he once was. I’m just trying to maintain some perspectives. There are some issues with Shaq that the Cavs will have to address. If they do, this trade will work out great. If they don’t, it’s gonna be rough.

  • bobby

    Rock, I was just wonder also, who else would you like to give up if a bosh or amare had become available later in the season? you admit that Wallace and Sasha wouldnt be enough, so would you be willing to part with mo, or west? the Cavs would have to give up a lot more to get one of those 2 guys.

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