While We’re Waiting… Cliff Lee Trade Thoughts
July 30, 2009Martinez the Next To Go
July 30, 2009(Yesterday, Jacob took the reigns with his thoughts on the Cliff Lee trade. This morning, TD brings the thunder with his feelings on the matter. Craig’s will come later in the day.)
There is zero point in rehashing the Indians 9-3 loss in Anaheim yesterday. The real story is the Cliff Lee trade to Philadelphia. You know the story now – Cliff and Ben Francisco are headed to the city of Brotherly Love for four prospects; none of which are named Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, or Dominic Brown, the jewels of the Phillies system. Instead, over comes an 18-year old flame-thrower (Jason Knapp), a catcher who looks major league ready but may be headed elsewhere (Lou Marson), a once-top prospect who carries a AAA ERA over five (Carlos Carrasco), and a middle infielder coming off of knee surgery (Jason Donald).
There has been plenty of backlash and uproar from the Wahoo Nation and understandably so. For the second straight year, the Indians have unloaded a Cy Young award winner mid-season for a group of players who aren’t ready for the big leagues. That is the one of major beefs I have with Mark Shapiro on the two trades I am referencing. Maybe Matt LaPorta is ready right now, but we wouldn’t know that, because the organization continues to keep him down in AAA, despite his killer stats (.302 BA/13 HR/49 RBI). (Side note – Trevor Crowe is getting the call to replace Francisco, not LaPorta). You cannot deal two Cy Young award winners and not get major-league ready young talent in return, especially in a market like Cleveland where you have to play the youngsters and develop them on the fly.
As for the ownership. I’ve said before, the Dolan’s were absolutely rooked when they bought the team nine years ago from the late Dick Jacobs. They overpaid by roughly double what they are now worth and couldn’t sell the team if they wanted to. With a payroll over $81 million to start the season and the team under-performing as usual, the attendance is dwindling. They claim to stay out of all baseball related affairs, leaving it to Shapiro and his staff. All of this doesn’t make any sort of sense. Worst of all, Shapiro was quoted on Wednesday by claiming these moves he is making are strictly for baseball reasons:
“We have zero imperative from ownership to move money,” Shapiro said early Wednesday. “That’s not a component in our decision-making at all.” He repeated that statement Wednesday night: “We are under no orders from ownership to move payroll or trim payroll,” said Shapiro.
Come on Shappy, don’t try to sell that garbage because nobody is buying it. Here is the truth – the team is hemorrhaging money. You don’t send five major league players out the door and get just one (Chris Perez) who is currently on the 25-man roster to make your team better. I was anxiously awaiting to hear how Shapiro spins this trade. Here is what we got:
“At the root of this deal was balancing the conviction of our ability to compete in 2010 with the opportunity to impact the team’s construction for years to come. Without the sense of confidence in the team’s ultimate competitiveness, we acted aggressively to add players that will impact the organization in 2010 and beyond.”
I just want him to be honest; come out and say “you know what, our finances aren’t where they should be. We expected to contend, so we spent as much as we thought we could afford to contend, but it didn’t work. Attendance is down, and that doesn’t allow us to be as flexible as we want to be, so certain luxuries can not be afforded. The best thing we can do for the long term health of the organization is to get as many quality young players as we can and develop them into major league players in the next couple of years.”
You know he won’t say that and you know Indians fans won’t be happy to hear the truth, but that is reality in a dying city is fans are only going to spend their disposable income on a contender. Anyone with extra money right now would much rather be throwing it at the LeBron and Shaq show than games started by Tomo Ohka and Jeremy Sowers. But Tribe fans – your owner is not Dan Gilbert and these are the rules that you (unfortunately) have to live by.
We’ve watched Albert Belle, Jim Thome, and Manny Ramirez (among others) walk away with getting nothing but a draft pick (and a botched one at that) in return. So if you thought that Cliff and (most likely) Victor Martinez are staying here long term you were fooling yourself. If Cliff wasn’t traded now, he would have been next year if the Indians didn’t contend. Same thing goes for Vic the Stik. But that is the question – with the AL Central still a joke, wouldn’t the Indians still be able to contend with a revamped bullpen and a possible influx of young talent (LaPorta, Michael Brantley, Luis Valbuena, Hector Rondon, David Huff) next year? You still have a core of a healthy Grady Sizemore, an improving Travis Hafner, stud SS Asdrubal Cabrera, hit machine Shin-Soo Choo, and Martinez (I hope).
Would the Indians have been better off holding Cliff until this time next year to see if they could be in the race? Conceivably, they may have been able to pull in the same type of haul at that time. Now, 2010 looks like a lost year and more budget cuts will have to be made. Progressive Field could look like a ghost town next April. The team now must look to 2011.
Sad and depressing, I know. As Cliff put it: “As a fan it’s hard to feel good about that. Losing one Cy Young winner one year. And another one the very next year is probably hard for a fan to swallow.” I’ve already had not one, but two knee-jerk reactions amongst my season ticket group, saying they were out for next year. I’m sure many of you will do the same and I can’t say that I blame you.
But like my manager, I won’t give into the fight. I will still support and love this team. Just like all of the Browns lemmings who religiously and passionately stay with your Brown and Orange through one failed regime after another, I will stick with my Red, White, and Blue.
28 Comments
I haven’t had the same sort of reactions that everyone seems to be having…i am not angry because of the trade…im not happy either…i understand that it is a part of baseball as it stands…the haves and the have-nots are just too far apart, and with payrolls getting bigger and bigger, the smaller teams that cant spend the money, wont spend it…so here we are…i for one look forward to seeing what these young guys have to offer…since we know that this team was “underperforming”…lets see what these guys can do…it cant be any worse…and if it is, so what…its still baseball!!
Go Tribe!
Pro sports is ALL about OWNERSHIP (and management).
Dolan’s are cashing out, fire-sale on the assets-next step is their (finally) selling the team. Your only hope is that they don’t pull a Modell.
TD-you are correct in your assessment, however, it was apparent to some from the get go. It has ALWAYS been about the Dolan’s treading water and making that up on the fan. Was that way from the start, will be that way on the way out.
By calling up Crowe over LaPorta, it means the Indians traded two Cy Young winners and received no players in return, at least in their eyes, that are Major League ready right now.
Heres a fun (depressing) debate: Who is currently the best pitcher on the Indians staff?
@ # 4 – I just threw up a little bit, in my mouth.
Isis, here is my post for the last post which was while we were waiting:
“Isis,
I got it, you hate the tribe. Do you have to post the SAME exact feelings for 3 days straight now. Dolan is cashing in all his valuable assests before he sells the team. Again, I got it. move on to another point or at least phrase this one a bit differently next time.
And by your comments, I really think you should just get it out of the way and start rooting for the Red Sox.
I for one, can’t wait to see if these four studs that the blue jays wanted turn out to be anything compared to the guys the tribe got. I mean, Adam Miller was can’t miss too, right? hasn’t Drabeck already had TJ surgery?”
Obviously you didn’t read that yet or just ignored it and your increasingly static input continues. COULD YOU PLEASE just stop saying that the Dolans are about to cash out for one post. you’ve done it in like 5 in a row now.
I need an ignore Isis button.
I’m not sure we have a best Andrew. Fausto or Pavano I guess? Yeah that’s depressing haha I think with Fausto we’ve at least seen the potential a few years ago…maybe he’ll get his head straight and stop walking people, thinking he’s a strikeout pitcher and get back to what he was successful with.
@4 Zack “Morris” Jackson
Great points all around and unfortunately it’s a vicious cycle. Ownership won’t spend money b/c the team’s not bringing any in, but fans won’t spend money to see the team because the product is not worth paying for (in most people’s opinions). Living up in Boston for the past ten years has made me realize one thing…I’m a tribe fan, was growing up in the 80s and will be until I die, or they fold ; ) I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but we all know that we’ll continue to root for the tribe whether we really want to or not because we’re baseball fans (most of us at least) and let’s be honest who’s going to actually find a new team at this point. I’m heading into c-town this weekend and have gone back and forth about going to the game saturday night, but the more I thought about it, how can I not?
What the f am I rambling about?
yeah, we all know this sucks, and we’ve been here before, but if you refuse to spend money on heading to a game, pick up a half-priced hat or t-shirt…contribute in that way
Our Ace may be Hector Rondon. Unfortunately, he’s with LaPorta, Brown, and Brantley in AAA.
Before anyone makes the statement that it’s wise to keep Rondon in AAA so we don’t start the MLB clock on him, I get that. I’m just saying the Tribe has a whole starting staff of AAA pitchers, and Rondon may be the best.
And really…someone is posting under the name Boqueesha McButterpants? What happened to the seriousness with which we treat the Indians?
Oh, I guess that ended when the starting rotation was made up entirely of #5 guys with maybe a #4 floating around in the mix.
@6 Kevin – AMEN!
Need a tissue Eli? My apologies for using the same name I use on any internet site I post on…
@ Eli — personally i liked the Boqueesha McButterpants. It was funny and the first time I’ve smiled reading something about the Indians.
I know people have mentioned bringing up AAA players to see how they do, but I mean why not? There’s really nothing else to lose.
I guess the only problem is paying major league ticket prices to see AAA players.
Is there any other real reasons (besides idiocy from Shapiro) that we would not call up more players? I dont really know much about farm teams and what not
I think people are most upset by the fact that it feels like Shapiro got fleeced in this trade. Not one of their top 3 “untouchable” prospects? For real?
What enrages me is that I’m sure other executives are laughing at Shapiro for what he got, and Shapiro and his inner-circle probably think they’re geniuses.
What I wrote was actually a joke. Rereading it, I can see how people would take it seriously. My apologies to the family McButterpants.
Just another failure of writing something with a specific tone in mind and completely failing due to the lack of the sarcasim button.
Shapiro, you are making yourself sound even stupider by claiming this is not about finances, because if this wasn’t about Finances, these trades would make ZERO sense. At least if they are about money then there is SOME explanation.
ironic in the misuse of stupid…
TD – thanks for the strong summary. But “dying city”? How about “struggling city”. Let’s not get too morose here
If he admitted there were money troubles, wouldn’t that lower the value of Victor Martinez? If that’s why they are trading him, then all of the sudden the Indians appear to be with their backs against the wall, much like speculated about the reasons Halladay was being moved.
Sorry you guys aren’t doing so well this year. Hope those prospects turn out huge for you.
I don’t know if any of you saw Jayson Stark’s reaction piece on ESPN.com last night. After I read it, I felt a tad better about this trade. He said that according to a lot of scouts, the Tribe got the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best prospects in the Phillie organization behind Drabek.
That makes it a little better doesn’t it? I still think there had to be a better deal out there, whether it was before tomorrow’s deadline or next year, but maybe it wasn’t quite the dumpster fire trade I thought it was at first. Or I am delusional and someone Isis would think is an idiot for having hope.
#4– yeah really. we don’t even HAVE an ace now. How depressing. The Indians’ roster is literally a bunch of guys on the plank…. Shapiro dressed as a pirate, poking at them with his sword.
I should, like, totally draw that.
every day i begin to like Joba Chamberlain more and more.
One note on ownership: The Wilpons (NY Mets owners) have come out and said publicly that they CAN’T spend any more money this year. They were rooked by Madoff. The public has heard what he is saying and has accepted it – whether they like it or not. Shapiro needs to speak up for Dolan and just tell the fans the same thing. We just want the truth.
go tribe (for now).
@ 21 Jeff – “Or I am delusional and someone Isis would think is an idiot for having hope.”
Ding!
A balanced review of the trade on cnnsi.com. This is the analysis I was waiting for. We know a break-down like this will never come from the Plain-Dealer. They treat these type of trades as personal attacks and instead of partaking in objective journalism, they act like fans and just b**** and moan.
http://tinyurl.com/knpzs3
hah thank you for the apology Eli…little Ray-Ray is happy again. but d*mn I usually am pretty good at picking up on the sarcasm! lol
#22- Not only do we not have an ace… I’m not sure we have a Jack…
Dan Gilbert needs to just go ahead and buy this team…but he should wait until Lebron re-signs.
After next year the Indians will be worth…?