Whither Jordan Brown?
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July 29, 2009
For a variety of reasons that are still relatively unknown, Eric Mangini and George Kokinis haven’t provided any clarity to the Cleveland Browns’ QB picture. At this point, the only thing that we can say (almost) for sure is that the Browns QB depth is better with third stringer Brett Ratliff than they were with Ken Dorsey a season ago. And yet, because it is the Browns and because it is the quarterback position people can’t stop talking about the matchup of Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn. It even goes so far that this morning ESPN’s James Walker talked of combining the two players into a hybrid QB named “Brady Anderson.”
You know Derek Anderson. He has the rocket arm. He had one solid season when he got to be a Pro Bowl alternate before succumbing to the pressures, injuries and in all fairness the receivers’ drops a season ago. And then there is Brady Quinn. He is the pretty boy. The uber-marketable wanna-be face of the franchise who has touch on shorter and intermediate routes. He is the guy with leadership skills and all those intangibles that get reserved for players like Joe Montana and Tom Brady. Except that we really have no idea if he actually has that at all.
I know it is fun for some people to constantly argue back and forth between the two quarterbacks, but it is an unwinnable argument. The fact remains that we kind of know what we have in Derek Anderson. He has played in 31 games for the Browns and has a cumulative 75.1 QB rating over 927 attempts. Out of those attempts he has 506 completions, 43 touchdowns, and 35 interceptions. But what do we know about Brady Quinn?
I hear crickets.
Brady Quinn has played in four regular season games. He has made 97 pass attempts with 48 completions. With those completions, Brady Quinn has two touchdowns and two interceptions. We know nothing about Brady Quinn.
Honestly, looking at his stat sheet the craziest thing of all is that Quinn has only experienced being sacked once in his two-year NFL career to date. That means we don’t know anything about him situationally. How does he play with his back against the wall? How does he play after getting plastered to the field with the clock running down at the end of a half?
I know that I won’t be able to stop the debate. Trying to stop a QB debate in Cleveland is like trying to stop Marisa Miller from being attractive. What I do know is that it is Brady Quinn’s turn. Much like with Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay, we can’t go on forever not knowing anything about a player on our roster. I have said it once and I will say it again. I have no idea if Brady Quinn is that born leader, face of the franchise with intangibles for days, but I know that I want to find out this season. Then, and only then, can we have a truly honest debate about these two quarterbacks.
33 Comments
I’m probably the most vocal guy here w.r.t. not being a Quinn fan. I’ll point out my gripes.
1) He wasn’t that good in college. Yes, he set records at Notre Dame. Against service academies, Purdon’t, Sparty in the John L. Smith Era, and Ga. Tech. Any time he faced a good opponent (see: USC, LSU, OSU) his team lost and he didn’t play well.
2) Because he grew up a Browns fan and is from Ohio, people think he should be the QB. When he was drafted, he held out and missed part of camp. That didn’t matter to these folks. Especially after Frye was traded, the job should have been Quinn’s. DA had a fluke season, but people still were pining for Quinn.
3) If the Browns had taken Troy Smith (who I think is far better as a football player, and most assuredly is a leader), would we be having this argument? I think NOBODY (aside from me) would be pining for Troy to be starting, even though he developed much more as a QB while in college (and played better AND WON against tougher competition).
4) People are too impressioned by the fact that he played at Notre Dame and is in commercials. This is not something that we can fault him for – he’s made the decisions to do so, and that’s fine. Largely, this has to do with the fact that he was the starting QB at Notre Dame for four years – this hype machine is unrivaled (see: Jimmy “Four Heisman” Clausen). But the fact that he’s a big, handsome, white QB from Ohio doesn’t mean anything on the football field – and that’s what matters.
I get extremely tired of the aura about Quinn – he has yet to prove ANYTHING. Just because he threw a football in close proximity to Touchdown Jesus does not mean that he is, in fact, Touchdown Jesus.
love the site, but this is kind of a boring post
Denny, I will stop short of saying he was good in college, but I would say he was better than you think. Due to their standards, the talent level at ND isn’t nearly what it used to be, and the ONLY times ND has been remotely decent in the last decade were the years Quinn was there. That has to count for something, at least in terms of leadership and things of that ilk (i.e., if he can get more out of less, that should count for something).
Also, you’re both not incorrect in saying we know next to nothing about him, but we do know a lot of BAD things about Derek Anderson with respect to his aptitude for being a successful NFL QB. DA was only successful when things were absolutely PERFECT for the Browns: relatively no offensive injuries of note, solid O-line play and running game, and a cupcake schedule full of teams who had no film on him. Once any of those things changed, he started to wither.
I said it before in the other thread: I’d take a short- to intermediate-range thrower who makes sound decisions, is fairly accurate, and doesn’t force things over a gunslinger who throws four BAD interceptions against a BAD Cincinnati team in the one game the team needs to win to go to the playoffs.
In summary, you’re not incorrect in that we don’t know what we have in Quinn. I would counter that we DO know what we have in DA, and it’s not a long-term answer at QB. Thus, why not see what Quinn can do? For the type of offense it is believed the new staff wants to run, wouldn’t it make sense to have a guy with shorter accuracy who doesn’t make mistakes than a “gunslinger” who can’t hit a slant route with any accuracy and can’t move out of the pocket?
Denny, that’s my exact thoughts on Quinn.
Good post Craig.
@Denny: I’m actually a fan (with some reservations) of Anderson and think he is somewhat underrated given that the failures last year were multifaceted (as Craig pointed out) rather than just a function of his personal ineptitude.
Even so, I think you overstated the case against Quinn a bit.
-Probably 99% of people on this blog hate Notre Dame, however, you have to concede that BQ was an excellent college QB. His record against high caliber programs is underwhelming but is probably more of a functioning of the weak teams ND was fielding around him (case in point, how many NFL stars or even solid pros were on those teams w/ Quinn?).
-Re: the holdout in ’07, it is the case that Phil Savage intentionally drew out the negotiations to avoid a Tim Couch rush-to-action scenario…probably one of the GMs shrewdest moves this side of Shawn Rodgers. I wouldn’t call this a black mark against quinn
-as for the aura/Notre Dame/local favoritism…it annoys me too a bit, but a little game experience should separate the reality from the hype (or hopefully combine the two!). If BQ is the real deal and wins games for the city, I’ll get behind him regardless of his arrogance/political affiliations(ha)/hero worshippers (disclaimer: one of my college buddies went to Dublin HS, dated one of Quinn’s sisters, and said Brady was one of the biggest [insert your own expletives] he’d ever met.
Denny,
You’re not accounting for the dreaminess of Quinn’s eyes.
I don’t know if Quinn is the answer, but I do know that DA is not. As DP pointed out, as soon as some film appeared on Anderson (and everyone realized he never checked down, or actually couldn’t because he’d gun it 90 mph at a dude 3 feet away) teams started picking him off deep. Just like with the Indians, give the guys we have but haven’t seen their shot, we already suck so who cares.
Also @Denny I think it’s hilarious to see an OSU fan talk about someone being overrated in college because they were only good against cupcake teams. See ex: LSU, Florida, USC, etc…
At no time have I said Quinn is the answer, but DA can’t get it done as a starter for this team.
@ Swig …extraordinary dreamy eyes…
Come on man. You wanna know everything about Brady Quinn but you wanna know it all this season? This is the one thing I hate about the NFL today. Everyone wants to judge a Quarterback after a few games. Do you realize it takes time to develop a passer and a young QB in this game? It’s the toughest position in the toughest sport. The NFL has became such a huge business that because of the financial dollars riding on literally every down and distance, guys aren’t given the type of time they truly need to see if they have it or not. If we give Quinn ONLY this season to show what he can do, it will be another mistake in a lifetime of the Browns shooting themselves in the foot. Commit to giving Quinn at least this season and next and then you can make an accurate decision. There’s already people who have made up their mind about Quinn or think they have after 4 games of action. You are right in saying we truly know nothing, but a fair evauluation is not just this season. If you’re truly giving him the investment he deserves, then he should get this season and next at the very least. Imagine if the Packers had judged Favre as basically a rookie or the Colts had judged Unitas. Even Tim Couch got almost 5 years, and that was very fair and I commend our organization for that.
You’re beyond wrong for wanting everything right now. Nothing good ever comes overnight and this won’t either. Hence my biggest fear.
@ DP Diesel – I agree on DA’s faults – those are known. Obviously Mangini isn’t a fan of the slinger, and BQ might fit this offense well. I just don’t think there’s anything set in stone that he’s good or will be good. Better than DA almost assuredly, but that’s not saying much at this point.
@ humboldt – I won’t concede that he was an excellent college QB, because I don’t feel so. I will concede that the Savage holdout orchestration was good, and you’re right – I forgot about that.
@ Swig – I couldn’t get past his magnificently styled hair to even notice anything about his eyes.
@ Tron – I don’t think that argument holds any water in this discussion. If OSU had one quarterback in those three games you mentioned and I was talking about them being better than Quinn, then I’d agree. However OSU had three different QBs play in those games that you listed. I mentioned that I’d rather have Troy Smith. He had a much better record against Top Ten teams than Quinn did in college.
Lost in all this QB controversy/debate is the real story here – the rise and fall of perhaps the most heavily scouted and coveted QB to ever walk the halls of Notregonme State University: Derek Quinn. Kid had promise but blew it all getting all hopped up on goofballs. What a shame.
I’ll preface this by stating openly that I am a BQ fan as well as a ND alumni. That being the case, I’ll attempt to be as unbiased as I can. That being said, I have seen every single snap of BQ’s collegiate and professional career, so I have a pretty solid frame of reference.
1) Both sides of the BQ-in-college are blown way out of proportion. His numbers were gaudy, but a lot of them were put up against teams like Navy and San Jose State. [Although this same argument applies to almost any successful D1 QB – no one plays anyone anymore].
ND lost games to USC, LSU, OSU. Anyone who ignores the talent discrepancy between those ND teams and the teams they played is being silly. Besides, who DIDN’T lose to OSU, USC, and LSU during those time periods? [esp. USC the “most talented football team” to lose a national championship].
2) We don’t know what we have in BQ largely b/c RAC was a terrible coach when it came to developing young talent (sound familiar?). The “knock” on BQ seems to be that he cannot throw the ball down field. I don’t know whether this is a legitimate criticism or not. In college, Quinn didn’t lack for arm strength when throwing more than 20 yds. Maybe that was just b/c he was in college or something else. I believe the reason we never saw BQ air it out in the NFL is b/c RAC & Co. wouldn’t let him/encourage him to do so.
Strangely enough, my biggest criticism about BQ coming out of college is that his accuracy left something to be desired, frequently throwing the ball a bit high. Now, that seems to be his biggest selling point.
Combining these two observations, I am left to draw the conclusion that no one has any idea. It seems baseless criticism/hype just seem to sustain themselves.
3) Anyone who thinks DA is the future is insane. The guy literally cannot throw a 5 yd swing pass. He can’t throw over the middle. He can’t move in the pocket. He can’t command a huddle. He can’t run a 2-minute drill.
I completely agree he looked worse than normal last year b/c the team was a disaster. But I had these same criticisms during the 07 campaign. Especially towards the end of that year.
While we don’t know anything about BQ-in-the-NFL, from what little we’ve seen he can at least manage the clock and throw 5 yd swing passes.
@ Denny: Troy Smith is undersized and, frankly, not as mobile as advertised. (And I’m a Troy Smith fan). More defenses in the NFL resemble that Florida Nat’l Champ team than they do Purdon’t, MSU, etc. (Surprisingly, a lot of the same teams BQ played…)
Also, off topic, as a sophomore, Clausen has undeniably better numbers than Stafford or Sanchez. The only difference is Clausen has national media hype (b/c he plays at ND) and Stafford and Sanchez were nigh-unknowns as sophomores.
I was under the impression that BQ held up the contract because he wanted top ten money. Isn’t is deal structured in such a way with performance bonuses that could pay him that kind of money? (granted the final bonus is probably win superbowl mvp).
ben, I agree with you about the BQ things you said. I still don’t think he’s that accurate honestly, because there were a few misplaced balls I saw in his games (though we still don’t really know as everyone said, anything). I do think you were rather hard on DA though. He had a good season in 07 (with one awful game) and a bad season in 08 (with one spectacular game, and the fans rooting for BQ the whole time, not that the BQ thing should be an excuse).
I think the best thing is see who can run this offense better this preseason. To come in and say, Brady, your starter for the next 2 years is straight up asinine. He can get his shot this year if he beats DA. I still think DA could end up starting week 1 because Brady will not take a risk. Even Grossi (the guy with the biggest BQ crush on earth) admitted that Quinn is almost robotic in checking down. At some point though you are going to have to throw the ball down field. How effective will a 2 minute drill be when hes trying to throw 10-25 yrds for the first time in the game (a slight exaggeration, but i think you get the point).
I like that the coaches are giving a straight fair shot for both of them, and not automatically ruling out DA.
@ Denny – Troy Smith had quite the better talent around him in college as compared to BQ. You can’t really compare the two.
I think so many people want to see BQ play because we know DA is not the answer
I’ll second Tron. To say “we kind of know what we have” in Anderson is being way too lenient and is a complete joke. We know what we have in Anderson; a QB that cannot be counted on to perform with any type of consistency from one Sunday to the next and a QB that still doesn’t have control of the huddle whatsoever.
This is not saying Quinn will take the reins over and be the Browns QB for the next decade. That would be foolish. But I do believe we have seen enough to say that, if given the opportunity, there’s a decent chance Quinn could match and/or exceed the level of consistency the Anderson has provided over the past two seasons, even in his glorious 2007 season (where we still didn’t make the playoffs–4 INTs in Cincy, anyone?)
I’ll finish by saying that we don’t know much about Quinn because he’s never been given a fair opportunity to win the job IN CAMP. This is why the Browns need to start him and see what he’s got; this is not a team on the verge of the Super Bowl berth and this is realistically the last season we’ll be able to keep both QBs. You can’t trade Quinn without knowing what he’s about.
I am tired of hearing Quinn deserves a chance. Yes, he absolutely does deserve an opportunity to prove he should start. He’s getting that. What he does not deserve, however, is a starting position just because he is the peoples’ choice, or because he is not D.A. Why should he be afforded that status when everyone else on the team has to earn it, and before you say Anderson didn’t have to earn it last year, realize that no team in the history of the NFL would not start a guy they went 10-5 (7-0 at home) the previous season. WIth his play in 07, Anderson got the nod last year. Obviously, things went differently last season, so now Quinnie has an opportunity to prove he’s the better QB. Not really sure how you can have a problem with that. I find it odd that D.A. backers welcome a QB competition, why Quinnies are adamantly against it. Hmmmm? If Quinn is chosen to start because Mangini thinks he is the better QB, and not because he is the Golden Boy the masses are crying for, then absolutely, he then DESERVES to show what he can do. A player DESERVES playing time based on what he shows the coaching staff, not based where he played in college, what round he was drafted in, how charismatic he is, or anything else that has led Cleveland to annoint him a football savior.
# 16. He’s obviously being given that chance this year. Are you still going to complain if he loses the competition?
ELOCK,
Really? I think it’s hilarious that you’re getting after people for saying Quinn should be anointed the starter when that is EXACTLY what Derek Anderson has enjoyed under Romeo Crennel.
Phil Savage openly admitted to drawing out Quinn’s contract negotiations prior to his rookie season so that Quinn had no chance of starting and Anderson was handed the reins once again in 2008, keeping the reins after rampant inconsistency under center for the first half of the season.
Honestly, all I care about is Ws; if Anderson goes into camp and outplays Quinn, then start him by all means. I just don’t think that’s going to happen. This is the first time it’s TRULY an open competition and in my opinion, barring injury, Brady Quinn will undoubtedly be the starting QB when they play the Minnesota Vikings in Week 1.
Put a starting QB against the Steelers. We’ll find out real quickly what they’re about.
Quinn is not good enough to replace DA. i think that says it all about his skills.
Ike,
first off, D.A. certainly wasn’t annoited the starter in 07, because Frye started the season (and yes, I know they purposely admitted to drawing out Quinn’s negotiations.)
As for last season, as I wrote, no team in the history of the NFL would not start a guy they went 10-5 (7-0 at home) the previous season.
And see, what really gets me is you say Quinn will undoubtedly win the competition. You have no idea what Quinn can or cannot do. Do you really think it is out of the realm of possibility that Quinn is not as good as D.A. Do you really think the Browns will ever win 10 games with Quinn?
You know what, I hope Quinn does start. Reality is going to replace ridiculous myth very quickly.
Great comments ELOCK. I agree with you completely. Quinn does not ‘deserve’ to start. He should get a chance to compete to start, as should DA.
clearly too much Ohio State bias in this entry. Quinn was a stud in college. the defenses on his team were notoriously bad.
from #1
“Any time he faced a good opponent (see: USC, LSU, OSU) his team lost and he didn’t play well…” and repeated throughout.
Factcheck:
2006 44-24 loss to USC 3 tds, 0 ints, 74 rush yds, 274 passing
2006 Sugar Bowl – 2 tds, 2 ints – not “not well” but decent against a top SEC defense playing at HOME in a bowl game
2006 season 37 tds/7 int
2005 Fiesta Bowl 286 yds, 65% comp, 0 ints, 0 tds not “not well” against OSU’s amazing defense (5 sacks, -32 rushing and NO ints? thats impressive if you think about it. that kind of pressure and he had a high comp and no throwing mistakes)
2005 34-31 loss to USC 264 yds, 1 td, 1 int against a DEF that was just incredible. would’ve been a win if not for an illegal push in the back by reggie bush that got leinart across the goal.
2005 vs Tennessee – 295 yds, 3/0, 61%
2005 vs Michigan – 2/0, 63%
2005 season 32/7
now, how this translates to the pros and how he’ll perform starting over a full season – i dont know. but you bucknuts need a reality check if you think this guy has mediocre talent and that he’s just some /mythical goldenboy/
that said, go bucks.
His sister dresses like a harlequin.
/No OSU bias.
AFC North- Steelers and Ravens success.
Until we have what they have, a defense that gets off the field, creates turnovers, good field position. And a high peroforming o line and running game to compliment our passing attack. We are setting both Quinn and Anderson up for failure.
DA is not the QB of the future, his blunders down the strecth of the 10-6 season and last years mess show that. Start Quinn, give it time, and build a team. It’s the only way we will ever win anything. If Quinn falls flat on his face, so be it. We have no choice but to see what he’s got.
Go Browns
We need a QB has to work within the system, but the system also has to work for the QB.
I just have one more comment about the OSU bias that permeates this site.
Why do I get the feeling that Navy won’t be considered a service academy cupcake when they play the buckeyes this year? Instead they will be considered a tough, grinding team coming off a year where they made a bowl game.
Contrary to popular belief, ND only plays Navy every year. They occassionally play Army and Airforce, but Airforce is consistently strong as well.
I mean, if the team I rooted for had to win one game this year, I would probably rather have them play Michigan than Navy. But the OSU fans still consider Michigan a “big time” opponent and Navy a scrub. But not this year. This year, Navy is going to be a quality win. Unless ND beats them, and then for one week they will be a cupcake again.
@ Kevin: LOL that is absolutely correct. ND is the LeBron/Kobe of college football. You either love it and defend it like crazy, or you hate it and you make insane arguments why they’re bad.
@ELOK: “Do you really think the Browns will ever win 10 games with Quinn?”
Absolutely.
@ ELOCK –
It sounds like you’re more concerned with being right than the Browns winning. Good work.
I would rather assume that Quinn is better and be wrong if the Browns end up winning with Anderson than say things like: “You know what, I hope Quinn does start. Reality is going to replace ridiculous myth very quickly.”
ELOCK,
I do think Quinn will win the competition because he’s now under a coach that’s actually going to give him a fair shot; for the first time, him and Anderson will truly be on equal footing going into camp. Though it’s only 2 games, Quinn played well against a Denver (admittedl a terrible defense) and did enough to win on the road in Buffalo on Monday Night with a broken finger for 3 quarters. That doesn’t mean he’s going to the HOF, but it showed me something that Anderson hasn’t.
And again, for all this talk of Anderson’s glorious 2007 season, we still didn’t make the playoffs and he completely crumbled under the pressure in Cincinnati with the playoffs on the line. In ’08, when we actually played good teams and defenses had the book on him, it was a wrap.
Like Omega King said, it seems like you’re more concerned about being proven correct than finding the right QB for this team. I’ve told you, if Anderson goes out and outplays Quinn in camp, then start him by all means. I just don’t think it’s going to happen. Don’t confuse that with me not wanting it to happen. I could care less as long as the best guy wins.
great post WTPFO. your points were fresh and valid! Quinn’s the man!
Great call Kevin and Ben. Is playing Navy every year and occasionally Army or Air Force any worse than OSU playing Youngstown State? How bout that brutal MAC opponent that rolls into the shoe every year? I know it must be terrifying to have Troy come into town. Come on, every team has cup cakes on the schedule.