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December 22, 200912 Days of a Cleveland Christmas: Day 12
December 22, 2009Last night I wrote about how I don’t really see Mangini surviving the Mike Holmgren hire. Regardless of what happens with Mangini or whether or not you think he deserves more time or the boot, I will be interested to find out about what the new Browns structure will look like.
Obviously the head of everything football will be Mike Holmgren as team president. Holmgren gets to think about the Browns from the 10,000 foot view. I am guessing he will have plenty of people reporting to him. Most notably, I would expect and hope that he will have the head coach and the GM both report to him directly as equals. This way the GM and the scouts and personnel people get to do their jobs, the coaching staff gets to do their jobs and any crossover input from the GM to the coaches or the coaches to the GM will be filtered through Mike Holmgren while Holmgren simultaneously sets the overall tone and direction for the organization.
So basically what Randy Lerner has finally farmed out to Mike Holmgren are what many teams have as the owner’s duties. That isn’t to say that it is a good idea to have the owners involved in football decisions like Jerry Jones and Al Davis. It is just to say that in many situations in the NFL we see owners serving as the providers of direction and also breaking ties in decisions between the GM and the coaching staff. I hope this is what Holmgren will do here in Cleveland. Ideally you would have a pretty cohesive trio (President, GM, Head Coach) that would agree more often than not. But at least this way we (hopefully) won’t end up with another Savage vs. Crennel or Mangini vs. Kokinis situation where the GM and coaches are almost battling each other. It should also completely remove the potential for a Butch Davis power grab maneuver when he and Pete Garcia basically ousted Dwight Clark.
Whether Mangini is here or not, I would think it will be good to have the GM and coaches as equals on the org chart answering to the president. That way all goals should be equally represented. Coaches probably representing the need for immediate benefits. GMs with slightly longer-ranging goals and more thoughts to salary cap, etc. And then the president on top of both helping to balance between immediacy and long-term needs while also providing direction to both the scouting departments and coaching staff.
And that is the best potential benefit of having Mike Holmgren on board. If and when the Browns do hire another coach or if he keeps Mangini, Holmgren should be able to provide some direction and expertise from a coaching perspective. He should hopefully be able to provide the credibility to the organization so that no one player or clique of players can hijack the team. I obviously can’t tell you completely what happened with Jamal Lewis and his locker room politics, but suffice to say it might have gone differently with a guy like Holmgren on board with this team. Stability, credibility and progress would be a nice thing in Berea for once since 1999.
One final note I will leave with you. This is a good hire by Randy Lerner. Then again, it is far from guaranteed to work. But this is the nature of the NFL. Sometimes good bets don’t work out. Butch Davis was a great hire at the time he was hired. That ultimately didn’t work out. Courtney Brown was a great draft pick when he was drafted. It didn’t work out. Certainly I think Mike Holmgren should be able to offer an improved situation in Berea. At the same time, he still has to hire a GM and figure out what he is going to do with his coaching staff going forward. There are still plenty of potholes that he could hit along the way. I just know he is a better driver than the one we have behind the wheel today.
40 Comments
I hate to say it, but I really hope that he can understand that to be successful in Cleveland, it has to start with running the ball, and stopping the run…I know that sounds very basic, but as we all have seen year in and year out, you cant have a pass-heavy offense on the North Coast…when the weather sucks, you have to be able to run…and you have to stop their running game…it sounds trivial, but if he says he wants to run a short passing West Coast offense, I’m going to puke…I really hope he has the same outlook on this team as many others do…build it from the lines out…great lines tend to make average or slightly above average RBs look great (think if Barry Sanders was behind Emmitt Smith’s line)…
DK: Agree 100%. Even more so given that we play Steelers and Ravens twice a year and finesse simply won’t cut it here.
Harv – agreed as well…you need old fashioned power football in Nov and Dec here…the ability to push the ball downfield when the weather permits is always welcomed, but the key to the AFC North is running the ball and stopping the run…
I agree a solid running game would be the best option, but with the right personnel, a pass heavy offense could succeed. Look at NE. They have terrible weather as well, but Brady throws it 40 times a game.
DK and Harv 21 are in agreement.
Seattle isn’t exactly Miami so I think he probably has a handle on playing in the elements.
I’m not disagreeing with you guys, but Green Bay is not warm weather, and the NFC North is power football too. The West Coast worked there.
Clown Baby. right on, this is a guy who has come from Seattle and Green Bay. I think he gets that weather will be a factor in Cleveland. And guys, passing the ball is the real deal. it can be effective in various climate conditions. Roethlisberger had 500 yards on Sunday. It isn’t 1958 anymore.
I really don’t think New England is ideal for passing either but they don’t just shut down the passing game when it snows. That’s not to say we have Tom Brady behind center either…
The West Coast offense, as I understand it, is multiple receivers and quick passes. Outside of not having 4-5 competent receivers on the roster I’m not sure why that wouldn’t work here.
Pat – NE has a little different setup in that they have a pretty solid line that has been together for a while, as well as a very good overall team with the type of personnel that allows them the flexibility to plug anyone in to almost any position…its sorta the same way Mangini wants to be able to move people in and out (depth)…but he cant do that just yet…having a Hall of Famer in Moss and a fantastic slot WR in The Chainsaw helps immensely too…i don’t know that we will have the same ability here because we don’t yet have those guys and that might take 2-3 more years…I also dont think that type of offense stands up to a great pass rush (see NYG v. NE SB), nor does it function as well without one of those pieces (Brady hurt, Moss sleepwalking)…a solid line with a power run minded O is pretty good to plug RBs into so that you dont need to have one go to guy…bout the only thing that would hurt that would be poor line play from one side or the other (cant wait to jettison St. Clair)
I would hope Holmgren knows the pedigree of the players in the AFC North and will abide similarly..
Roethlisberger had 500 yards on Sunday. – how’s that working out for their previous 5 games?
Clown – we tried the West Coast offense with Tim Couch. it didnt work. I’m not advocating 55 runs a game with 5 passes. I’m saying a vertical passing game off playaction would work best. the same people that complain about dinking and dunking the ball with BQ are the same people who want it now? That’s essentially what he’s been doing and he gets ripped for it. how many people complain when they throw on first and run on third? or get 2 yards on first, incomplete on 2nd and have to go 3rd and long?
a solid running game sets everything else up. when was the last winning season? when we had a good running game. it sets everything else up…when the winds are blowing off the lake at 45 and its snowing…i’d like to see how many times NE would throw then…snow is one thing, winds off the lake are all together different…
DK-
Pat = Me? Anyways, I’m not saying for a minute that our personnel is on par with NE, not at all. My point is saying that a passing offense in Cleveland wouldn’t work because of the weather is simply not true because it’s been done. It’s all been done….beeforeeeee.
Harv 21 and DK….I think the conventional wisdom is that running the ball wins games. However, time and time again, we have seen passing the ball clearly scores more points and yards, and uses more clock. The time when running the ball is important is when nursing the lead late in the game. Don’t get me wrong, i would love to be able to run the ball well….but the “run-first” offenses that dominate games are few and far between. I can think of only Kansas City 2000-2003ish and San Diego 2003-2006ish as the some recent examples of teams that were strong offenses that were definitely run-first.
Don’t be messing up my theory with facts.
But really, those teams do pass but are are successful only when they both run and stop the run. We’ve experienced what happens against Pittsburgh and Baltimore defenses when you cannot run. Romeo was oh-for-four years.
DK, yeah, we definitely don’t have the personnel for that type of offense. I’m just saying it could work if Holmgren (or new gm) brought in the right players. Right now, this team has no offensive identity as it is, so step 1 would be creating one.
Seattle has an ocean so my point stands. I really don’t want to rule out an offensive system because the great Tim Couch couldn’t make it work.
Is it too early to bang the “Ozzie Newsome for GM” drum? I know it probably won’t happen, but I’d love it.
clown – sorry man, first one was Pat from CBus, i got you in the one right after it…and again, dont get me wrong…I’d love to have that ability, but their offense has evolved quite a bit since TBrady has been running it…
but to reference my point, seattle might have water, but again, its not Cleveland in the winter…its cold, maybe rainy, but not the same…the West Coast type offense tends to lend itself to pick 6’s quite a bit too as LBs and DBs step in front of passes…a strong outside pass rush can also negate the WC Offense…San Fran in the 90s ran it to perfection, but I havent really seen any other teams run it well or win SB’s with it…
I think Mangini’s future is in his own hands. If he’s willing to admit that he doesn’t know everything and work with Holmgren, he’s shown that he still has the players. If he sticks to his my-way-or-highway attitude, well, he’s not far from the highway and Holmgren isn’t here to defer to that attitude.
Would the GM be some kind of meat sandwiched between Holmgren and Mangini (if Mangini is kept)? That sounds like a tall order.
@ Matt 2 – Who’s the GM in Miami? Yeah, nobody else knows either.
Matt2 – excellent question – I was under the impression it’s sort of his position, but someone else would technically hold that title…but I honestly dont know…
Isn’t it Jeff Ireland? He came over from the Cowboys, just like Parcells and Sporano.
Did Tim Couch really just get compared to Ben Rothlesberger? I hate the Steelers more than terrorists, but c’mon man! Really?
“Homer, are you comparing yourself to our Lord?”
“Well, in bowling ability.”
DK- the west coast offense could work here. What the browns have now is definitely NOT that type of O. They do not know what kind of O they have, and that falls on both Mangini and Daboll. Also, they pass to WRs in the west coast O. BQ is trying to get better at that, but his dink and dunks (esp. at the beginning of the year) were primarily to RBs and TEs in the flats.
I agree tho, no identity on O, but it doesnt have to be a power running one.
no, “big” ben did not get compared to tim “wet noodle arm” couch.
@bobby – i respectfully disagree…anytime you put all your eggs in one basket, i think you tend to leave yourself open for the backup effect…meaning, how well are we going to play if the backup is forced to play…sure it will work if your QB stays healthy, but more and more, this doesnt happen…if you build your line to be good, then you can run any O you’d like…but trying to base an offense built primarily off short passes doesnt seem to be that good of a strategy…do i think a bit of the WC Offense could work here? sure. do i think it should be the focus? no. I think diversity in the O will bring more success than just saying lets run the West Coast offense because we have a QB that likes to get rid of the ball quickly. I would rather have a strong line that can run the ball than a line that is suspect because they arent really being challenged…
the basis of the WC O is to let the D-Line get some push to take them out of the plays and leave the WR’s one on one with DB’s or LB’s…lots of 5 man lines…when you look at it that way, you’re setting yourself up for a problem if a team like say, Baltimore, runs a 3-4 at you…and they cover one of your wideouts with a LB in the slot…they can feasibly bring 7 guys to your line and 2 will be unblocked, or rush 6 and 1 is unblocked (assuming theyre running 5 wide, which most of the WC plays do)…can your QB get rid of the ball quick enough and with enough accuracy to beat this? perhaps. Is it a calculated gamble? sure. Can it be done? absolutely. do we have the Linemen good enough to take on pass rushers one on one? probably not. can it be run by our team right now? not a chance.
Like I said, I am all for using it in bits and pieces, but for Holmgren to say “we’re now a West Coast Offense” would be a mistake in my opinion…
Maybe I just tend to see things differently, I dunno…
If we are just talking about whether or not the concept of the WC O works or doesn’t work that’s one thing, but it’s pros and cons have very little to do with weather, IMO. I’m a balanced offense and stingy defense guy myself.
*its*
I mean, the Colts would not be the Colts without Peyton. If he goes down so does half of the offensive options. That said, I dont know if the west coast is the best choice, nor is a power running game best, im just saying it could be done if they wanted to try (the climate is not a reason why to say we cant do anything.) Also, thats why I like the 34 D for the reasons you brought up. Our Lbs just arent good enough.
Clown Baby,
Cons have little to do with weather because they are in prison.
clown – agreed…i have the same mindset as well, balanced O and tough D, but if the most recent Stillers game showed us, a pass-heavy attack in bad weather tends to not work. that’s my thinking….
Didnt the Patriots put up 50+ points early this year in the snow against the titans? I know we have no where near the patriots skill, but it can work if we had better players at WR and QB.
I really do hate to defend Butch Davis but the guy got us to the playoffs. If you told me Holmgren would get us to the playoffs I would say it would be a success.
Still mad we lost that game.
bobby- thats like 45% of the O! 4-5 WRs and 1 QB! if we had better players, we wouldnt be having this convo! haha
I just hope that The Walrus is going to build the lines first…thats my only request…(because he totally cares what I think) haha
bill cower coach
I, for one, welcome our new beefy mustachoed overlord!
I’d prefer Gruden over Cowher… Gruden used to work for Holmgren. Gruden is one of the best teachers in the game.
I say keep the O open and different every week depending on the look and style of D. Bring in a great QB coach and a running quarterback for back up BQ. Draft the best LB, CB, S (Mclain, Berry, Suh)options and a RT, TE(Ok).