May 23, 2013

While We’re Waiting… Big Ten Expansion, Not Sold on Holmgren, and Tressel Speaks

December 16, 2009 by 36 Comments

While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email at tips@waitingfornextyear.com.

big-ten-logoOn some Big Ten expansion: “So what’s the upside again? Oh, right the money. But think of how much you’ll end up paying some crappy consulting firm to re-design the Big Ten logo in order to shoehorn a “2″ into it. Plus, you really want to go to Rutgers for away games? If Notre Dame agrees, then go ahead and sell yourself out, but try to consider the Minnesota rowing team (they still count as Big Ten too, right?) as they scrounge up enough gas money to get their van to Syracuse.” [Dashiell Bennett/Deadspin]

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Paging Sam Smith… “Forwards like [Carmelo] Anthony and [Kevin] Durant are the second-class citizens of the NBA star system. No matter how efficient Melo becomes, or how much Durant realizes his awesome potential, they’ll always be penalized for their “limitations.” [...] LeBron James, who can play any position he wants, is stuck at small forward because it provides an easy cipher. No one cares about the SF; in a structural sense, it might as well not even exist.” [Bethlehem Shoals/The Baseline]

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Lake Erie Soldiers takes a look at the Cavaliers through the quarter-way point. [Lake Erie Soldiers]

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Not sold on Magic Mike: “Many in town have long viewed the hiring of a big name like Holmgren as a panacea.  We don’t.  The list of folks who have won a Super Bowl in as a head coach or head of football operations in one place, and won another somewhere else is short.  Wait.  There’s nobody on it.  So it’s unclear why so many seem so sure that Holmgren could be the first in NFL history to do it here.  Especially at the age of 61, having already made so many millions of dollars and having accomplished so much in the NFL.” [Cleveland Frowns]

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And finally, Jim Tressel speaks about a few things. Among them, the possible ineligibility of wide receiver Duron Carter. [Eleven Warriors]

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  • Ryan

    Frowns has his panties in a bunch because he knows Mangini is gone if Holmgren comes here. It’s not a matter of what’s best for the franchise. It’s a matter of trying to convince us that Mangini is the answer when everyone knows he is not.

  • ben

    Frowns is so unabashedly on Mangini’s “Magic Bus Ride” that it’s an affront to all legitimate sports blogs.

  • MrCleaveland

    Frowns might have his own agenda, but he still makes some good points. Just because Holmgren has some experience as an exec doesn’t mean he was any good at it — apparently he wasn’t. Besides, I’d rather see a guy who’s a little younger and who has a future rather than an old guy finishing up his career.

  • JK

    Duron Carter may be ineligible because of grades… Awesome. All of your daddys money, and every advantage of being a student athlete cant help you pass all those tough classes Im sure youre taking huh DC?

  • Chris

    So, maybe I’m nitpicking, or I’m missing the joke, but Minnesota is in the Big 11 and Syracuse is in the Big East. Anyone care to explain the punchline to me?

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Scott

    “Anyone care to explain the punchline to me?”

    Rowing teams dont get charter flights. If Syracuse were to join the Big Ten (as being one of the rumored potential additions), the potential bus trip from Minnesota to Syracuse would be excrutiating.

  • Chris

    Or is he implying that Syracuse would join the B10?

  • Chris

    Yeah after i hit “comment” that thought occurred to me. Got a new baby and I get zero sleep now. I hate mornings.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Denny

    @ JK – to be fair, my first quarter at OSU was by far my worst in terms of grades. College does take some getting used to, even when you’re only taking like 2 classes at a time and getting 5 credit hours for football.

  • mike

    Syracuse was one of the listed potential add-ons in today’s PD. along with rutgers, Pitt, missouri, nebraska and notre dame.

  • ben

    I think Pitt and ND make the most sense.

    ND football basically plays 50% of a Big 10 conference schedule as it is, with rivals at Purdue and (sort of) Michigan. And they have an above average basketball program.

    Pitt has the obvious Penn State rivalry, a very strong basketball program and a historically strong football program that is hitting a pretty solid stride right now.

  • matt

    Pitt sure seems like the logical choice….logistics/natural rivalries, good football/basketball, good tradition. Nebraska and Missouri can’t be serious candidates, can they?

  • RobGoBlue

    HoLmgren is not coming here.
    Can you say L-E-V-E-R-A-G-E ?

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    The list of folks who have won a Super Bowl in as a head coach or head of football operations in one place, and won another somewhere else is short. Wait. There’s nobody on it. So it’s unclear why so many seem so sure that Holmgren could be the first in NFL history to do it here.

    There’s nothing wrong with this argument, per se, but I get tired of that being a reason not to hire someone. So, you’re saying you don’t want someone with Super Bowl experience because historical trends say he can’t win another one here?

    I don’t know about everyone else, but this team is so far removed from the Super Bowl that I’m not even thinking about that. I know the “goal” is to win a SB, but let’s be honest. Even if everything goes right for this team, there’s probably no realistic way they’re competing for a SB before 2012.

    Holmgren has experience taking TWO teams to Super Bowls. Count me among those who would welcome that kind of resume in our current rudderless front office. It has nothing to do with Mangini what-so-ever.

  • Brendon

    Holgren- “Wait, what??? The BROWNS??? No, I was here for the Aston Villa gig.”

  • Tron

    The trip from Minn to Syracuse is only about an hour longer than it is to Penn State. Not saying that’s awesome since the Penn State drive is 15.5 hours as it is but hey, what’s another hour right?

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Denny

    Alright kids, since there’s a bit o discussion here just about daily about the B11 expansion, I’ve got a full slated article set up for this afternoon. Spend your morning honing your thoughts. This afternoon we let fly!

  • Jack

    This Cleveland Frowns thing is silly pants. They just plucked this from that SI.com article (link below). Half of those guys left their teams in much better states than they were previously. He’s won a Super Bowl. He made a crappy team good again and took them to another Super Bowl. No, he didn’t win. But they made it.

    Are they really saying they aren’t sold because he hasn’t won ANOTHER Super Bowl somewhere else? Getting there isn’t enough? Going from bottom-dweller to perennial division winner isn’t enough (ahem…Seabirds). When was the last time we made it to the Super Bowl? Or won the division?

    Honestly.

    This would be a great hire.

  • Jack
  • Jay

    Thumbs up to DP. Couldn’t have said it better.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    That’s what I was getting at, Jack.

    I remember someone on here once said that Lerner should *only* interview people for these FO positions if they could come in and show that they’ve had success in that specific position previously. So, there’s that.

    Then there are others that don’t want someone “older” even though they have some of that type of experience, and they don’t want them because they didn’t win a SB in TWO places.

    Seriously, we might be aiming a bit high here. I want someone that:
    a) brings instant credibility. Holmgren does that.
    b) has an eye for talent, both on the field and in coaching hires. Holmgren has that. Though they didn’t have huge success in Seattle with him as GM, he definitely improved that roster. Likewise, look at his coaching trees (Reid, Gruden, Mariucci, etc.). I trust someone with that kind of eye for coaching hires to make good hires in the FO as well.
    c) has had success with other NFL teams. Holmgren has that, too.

    I’m not saying Holmgren would automatically make this team great. There’s going to be a LOT of work ahead for whomever is hired for these FO positions. But, to dismiss someone with that kind of resume out of hand simply because he only won a SB with ONE team while completely discounting that he built ANOTHER team into a SB contender–and took them to one as coach (which they lost with some serious, SERIOUS help from the zebras) is completely short-sighted.

  • JK

    Denny – Yeah, same here. But we didn’t have paid tutors to “help” us with tests and every excuise to pass. I mean for crying out loud Vince Young got a 2 on his wonderlic and had no academic problems. Let’s be competetly honest college at tOSU was/is much different for me and you then for a privliged athlete.

  • http://hardawayhatespittsburgh.blogspot.com Pittsburgh is for Man Lovers

    As much as I hate the city of Pittsburgh, Pitt really doesn’t bother me. Weird. I would enjoy having them in the Big 10 so a team that I root for would be able to regularly trounce that terrible place.

  • MrCleaveland

    Experience is overrated. Kokinis has GM experience. So does Phil Savage.

    BTW, the fact that Holmgren left without signing a contract is a positive thing. If he had signed after one visit and without Lerner interviewing some other candidates, that would have been another impulsive disaster. Jobs like this require at least a round of second interviews before someone is hired.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    Experience is overrated. Kokinis has GM experience. So does Phil Savage.

    That’s kind of apples and oranges, though, don’t you think? You can’t surely be lumping Holmgren’s experience in with Savage’s/Kokinis’s experience and painting both with the same broad brush??

  • Swig

    @JK, the tutors are there to tutor the athletes. Anything beyond that is the exception not the rule. The thing people ignore in this comparison is how much time is required for the sport. From a pure academic viewpoint, they need the assistance to stay on pace with classmates who have an extra ~20hrs a week to get some studying done.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    I’ll just note that I’m not dismissing Holmgren out of hand, at all. I just don’t view his hiring as a panacea.

    If believing that Mangini is a good coach and has this franchise on the right track is “an agenda,” then I guess I’m guilty. But that means that everyone else has “an agenda” too.

    How about addressing the reasons why I support Mangini instead of just attacking the fact that I do?

  • MrCleaveland

    @25

    Yeah, DP, you’re right. I didn’t word that very well. I move to strike it from the record.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Denny

    “No Vince Young; I did superb on the Wonderlic”

    /Wale’d

  • JK

    I understand that Swig.. and Im not saying they dont need that time. But Im not going to feel bad for them because I dont think its alot different then having a fulltime job and going to school (which is what Im doing). What I am saying is that thats not all they get. Look theres a reason why athletes that are compete idiots can go through college with no problem.

  • Jack

    DP – Right on.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    Frowns, I’m abivolent about Mangini myself. I just don’t see him really as part of this discussion. If whomever comes in as “Czar” sees fit to keep Mangini as coach, I can live with that. If this Czar also sees fit to fire him, I can live with that, too.

    I also didn’t say it would be a panacea: I’m not saying Holmgren would automatically make this team great. There’s going to be a LOT of work ahead for whomever is hired for these FO positions.

    Where I tend to disagree is you assertion that the rebuilding project (and your use of the term “long underway” I took as sarcasm initially, honestly) is easily viewed as “on the right track” under Mangini. I’ve said here many times that I am OK with Mangini-the-coach, but that Mangini-the-personnel-guy leaves a lot to be desired. I disagree with what I inferred from you that Mangini has *only* been the victim of a “media hit job”.

    To honestly say that it is clear that the Browns are now on the right track–at 2-11 with a thin roster and a lot of lopsided losses in the very near rear-view–is a bit of a stretch for me. The notion of starting anew in the locker room would be met with much skepticism, and not just from here. I think you’re not being realistic here. If you honestly feel that the Pittsburgh win is a panacea, you’re being tremendously short-sighted in my opinion.

    I guess what I see as your main thesis is that Holmgren would be good, but that at the end of the day you don’t want to upset the Mangini Apple Cart for anything. I guess I don’t see how that can be a solid foundation for this team, especially when in my opinion Mangini has done very little to ensure that his plans would always be better than someone else’s… especially someone with a resume like Holmgren. Continuity is one thing; I agree that Mangini probably should get another year as coach, as the team is still clearly playing hard for him.

    But, with this roster, I don’t see how continuity with Mangini as personnel-guy is a good thing and should eliminate candidates of Holmgren’s stature from consideration. And that’s what I inferred from your piece.

  • AND BOOK IT

    Personally, unless the guy’s name is Bill Parcells, I’ll withhold judgment of any “czar” until we see the results. Holmgren’s an enticing name, but has Lerner made even one good hire in his entire history? With his track record, just the fact that Lerner chooses the person makes him suspect to start. I don’t mean that to sound as negative as it does, I’m just not going to get my hopes up until we see how it shakes out.

    As for whether or not a “czar” would retain or fire Mangini, there’s one key point that I have yet to see discussed here: the current Browns organization has three branches: President (Mike Keenan), HC, and GM are all top-level execs reporting directly to Lerner. Giving a “czar” control over the HC is potentially a violation of Mangini’s contract. So if Lerner is smart enough to do the right thing and restructure the organization properly, that’s a thorny issue there.

    I think it’s more likely that Mr path-of-least-resistance somehow waters down this czar’s authority, making it more of a glorified GM role or a ceremonial hire to placate the fans. I hope he proves me wrong, but Lerner’s decisions to date offer little reason for us to assume he’d get it right this time.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    Observe, enter Fred Nance. There’s a reason Lerner hired a big-time lawyer before doing all of these contracts. I think he knows it’s in his best interests to check some of Mangini’s authority in the front-office, and brough someone in to make sure all of the “legal-ese” is proper.

    That doesn’t make anything a slam-dunk, of course.

  • AND BOOK IT

    Hopefully you’re on to something there DP. But there’s noting Nance can do about Mangini’s contract already in place. Of course, if Mangini resists any change in authority and claims breach, I’m sure Lerner has no problem just paying him his contract to go away.

    Just struck me as an angle worth noting, that I hadn’t seen considered anywhere before. All the talk about whether a “czar” would keep Mangini, when Mangini likely has a contractual angle to work. With Randy’s aversion to conflict and tendency to resist making tough decisions, the end result could be very interesting indeed.

    And I really need to update my handle/avatar–any irony is lost now that Isis appears to have left the building.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    I think you’re close, DP. I think the main point is that Holmgren would be good in that he’d be a decent football guy to bring on board, and would give the organization P.R. cover, but it wouldn’t be worth upsetting what Mangini has already started here.

    I think our main difference is that I’m not as troubled by the deliberately stripped roster as you are. I think it was a dirty job that had to be done this season, and admire Mangini for having done it. I even admire Mangini’s 2009 draft (in which he was greatly handicapped by having only been with the team for a few months) as one taken with a long view. Now with space cleared, is the time for him to get his guys in place. Just like he did in New York.

    I’m not saying Mangini couldn’t use help with the personnel, but the Coach has to have final or at least dominant word on these issues for the team to have any success. The players have to think they’re reporting to the coach.