While We’re Waiting… Marson’s Rings, LeBron’s EWA and Fujita’s Exit

While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email at tips@waitingfornextyear.com

Lou Marson Choo Hafner Valbuena_med

Hey, at least one of our guys has some hardware: “Moving obviously was a good move for [Lou] Marson, so he’d get a chance to play. It’s too bad, though, Marson just missed out on a ring and a World Series share.  Except, he didn’t miss.

“I ended up getting a ring in ’08, a World Series ring,” said Marson, who also got some bonus money. “And [soon] I’m getting a National League [championship] ring from last year because I was up most of April.  Yeah, they took care of me over there. That was nice of them; they’re a first-class organization. [Team president] David Montgomery did the right thing by me.” [David Brown/Big League Stew]

“By all indications, [Seneca] Wallace is about as solid a veteran backup as we could ask for here in Cleveland heading in to Brady Quinn’s second year as a starter, and he might also be an exciting option in wildcat packages.  But the notion that he should be anything more than that absent an injury to Quinn is just absurd.  Holmgren has said there will be no quarterback controversy in Cleveland this season.  Here’s hoping that’s true, and that he shortly nips all this Wallace talk in the bud as soon as is practicable.” [Cleveland Frowns]

The Cheetowich: “I hope he doesn’t mind me posting this, but before today’s game I saw prospect Beau Mills place the contents of a small bag of Cheetos inside what appeared to be a turkey sandwich. And I tell you what… it looked pretty darned good.” [CastroTurf

Fun with EWA: “LeBron James currently leads the league with 26.3 wins added. Dwyane Wade is second, with 18.3 wins added. That is an 8-win gap. The size of the gap between James and Wade is the size of the gap between Wade and Marc Gasol, who is currently 18th in Wins added. If the Cavs had lost eight more games, they would be behind the Magic for the lead in the East, and right in the mix with Boston and Atlanta. [...] According to EWA, if James was replaced with a replacement-level small forward like Mickael Pietrus, the Cavaliers would be 23-41. That would make them a slightly worse team than the Clippers this season.” [Cavs the Blog]

And finally, Fujita’s exit from New Orleans: “Before leaving town, though, Fujita did one more thing for the people of New Orleans: He gave half of his Super Bowl check to charity, half of that going to relief efforts in Haiti, and the other half going to coastal restoration in New Orleans. [...] Take note, other free agents. That’s how you leave a city. So far, the bar has been set at “hold a tearful press conference” or “thank the fans in a full-page newspaper ad” for a classy exit. Scott Fujita just raised it.” [MJD/Shutdown Corner]

(Photo by Chris McGrath/Getty Images)

  • Chris

    Wallace is certainly an upgrade at backup over DA, who will be off the roster within the next week or so. Take a few deep breaths into a brown paper bag, people.

  • TSR3000

    I wouldn’t mind a competition between Kolb and Wallace for the starting spot. That and a #1 WR.

  • stin4u

    I think the trade for Wallace means Brady will be traded (I look to draft day for that), or if Brady remains he’ll be given his shot starting again this year. I don’t think Wallace will come in and automatically be the starter if BQ is still around.

  • phil m

    Question for Mickael Pietrus: “How does it make you feel to know that by joining the team with the best record in the NBA today, you would make them a slightly worse team than the Clippers?”

    Seriously, though: I thought Windy’s remarks on J.J. Hickson’s stellar performance yesterday merited mention in this morning’s post. It’s not that I didn’t notice it myself, but no one commented on it and we have to admit that J.J.’s performances range from the abysmal to the subli… well, at least to the very good for spring chicken like him. Every time he has a game like he did against Tim Duncan (13 points) and the Spurs, I think about the trade that could have sent him out of Cleveland and sigh in relief that it didn’t happen.

  • http://www.spacebooger.com Fred

    Fujita’s exit from New Orleans – WOW!
    I am impressed.

  • Chris

    Was anyone else not impressed with the way Blair played last night? 0 points and 4 rebs in 11 minutes? He looked slow last night. Maybe that happens when you don’t have any ACLs in your knees.

  • Jack

    Cleveland Frowns likes dem some hyper bowl…I’d like me some Super Bowl.

    I wouldn’t dismiss the notion as “just absurd” given that Brady Quinn has not shown any sort of development and looks very much like a career backup at this point. It is very clear that Seneca Wallace is NOT less talented or less valuable a quarterback. I’m not saying the writer there is wrong, but I think he’s putting a little too much stock in Quinn’s divine right

  • Jack

    @Chris – Giggle. Everyone was so furious we missed out on him. Early in the season many suggested he’d be a much more productive player than Hixy.

    DeJuan Blair still = rich man’s Darnell Jackson (pre-dexatrim era)

  • Charlie

    It was a big step for JJ. On the other hand, I do feel that AC’s claim that if JJ can hit the 15-foot J he’ll be an All-Star is a tad premature. Of course this is the same insightful, x’s and o’s man that sad if Mo made his two free-throws late in the game last night that it would put more pressure on the Spurs. Thanks, AC!

  • MP34

    @Phil M,

    J.J. did some nice things last night. If you watched you probably saw…
    1. Excellent ‘D’ on Duncan. 2. Glimpses of the 15 ft. jumper he can develop. 3. Strong moves to the rim. 4. Clutch free throw shooting.

    But he still needs to work on… 1. Finishing at the rim and not just hoping to draw a foul 2. Catching the ball in traffic 3. Boxing out.

  • MP34

    @Charlie, AC is color commentary. That job is all about hyperbole! But, AC is right, if J.J. can nail that jumper consistently, it takes his game to a whole new level.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    @Jack: Did you read the post or are you just commenting on the excerpt?

    “I wouldn’t dismiss the notion as “just absurd” given that Brady Quinn has not shown any sort of development and looks very much like a career backup at this point.”

    Holmgren himself has said that it takes two seasons of starting to judge a quarterback. You want to judge Quinn on twelve starts, 3 for the crumbling Crennel regime, 3 in Mangini’s first 3 games in the Braylon-poisoned locker room, and 6 when he had no credible pass catcher on the roster to speak of? That’s just absurd.

    “It is very clear that Seneca Wallace is NOT less talented or less valuable a quarterback.”

    What is clear is that he’s a 5’11 career backup who over seven seasons in the league has never been seen fit to be groomed as a starter. It’s clear that Quinn’s ceiling is much higher, and the potential exists that he could develop into a much more valuable asset than Wallace ever could. The idea that Quinn should or will be judged on his 12 starts so that Wallace can start is what’s hyper bowl.

  • phil m

    9 through 11: yes, and yes. AC overdoes it sometimes, and it’s for color and fun; that’s his job. He makes premature assessments to favor the home team. I don’t mind. MP34, that’s a fine breakdown of J.J.’s night, both the good and the bad. All in all, it was on the high end of his very wide range of performances. Compared to him, just think of how ridiculously reliable LeBron has become. He used to have woeful nights, but I cannot remember the last one. Maybe someone here does; but the point is that consistency is perhaps the last thing we can hope out of J.J. For now, let’s hope that his good days outnumber his bad.

  • phil m

    Sorry for the double post: do you guys have a control switch for deleting the first (which I corrected)?

  • Jack

    AC may not be the most eloquent man. He may not be able to communicate his opinions with clarity or focus.

    But he knows basketball. And he has a good eye for the game.

    It’s not exactly a stretch to say that a 21 year old kid who is probably in the top 10-15% of bigs in terms of athletic ability and is playing really his first real season could become an all-star if he adds a consistent mid-range shot–both spot-up and face-up. He’s have a pretty deluxe offensive game in 2-3 seasons. And with a front line that would make Nicholas Flamel blush, JJ promises to get big minutes next season, upping those rebound totals.

    While MP34 is right, Hix needs to learn to boxout, that skill is not prerequisite for being an “all-star.” I mean, look at Amare.

  • http://waitingfornextyear.com Scott

    “Glimpses of the 15 ft. jumper he can develop.”

    Chris Jent has been working with JJ a LOT on this during practices and shootaround. The last shootaround I watched, some of the jumpers appeared to rotate sideways while others were perfect. He has the potentail, just needs the game to slow down a bit more. It’s coming.

    and Phil – done.

  • JNeids

    There’s a small little joint in Tremont whose name escapes me that puts Fritos on all their sandwiches. Freakin delicious.

  • Matt#2

    JJ showed nice fundies defending the paint last night.
    Looks like he gets his schooling in practice.

  • MrCleaveland

    Tony Grossi seems to think that Wallace is our new starter. He says Quinn won’t have enough time to learn the new system. However, I’m surprised that Grossi wrote that. He should know better. A lot more better.

  • AMC

    @ Frowns – I think you may have it backwards. I think Wallace is the starter next season. I just don’t get the sense that the front office is enamored with Quinn and I think Holmgren has brought in one of his past guys to take over for at least the time being.

  • Matt#2

    “Nicolas Flamel
    “From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    “***The essence of his reputation is that he succeeded at the two magical goals of alchemy — that he made the Philosopher’s Stone which turns lead into gold, and that he and his wife Perenelle achieved immortality.”

    TO:Popcorn
    Jack:Wickipedia

  • Jack

    Mr. Frowns, it seems somewhat dangerous to comment on your articles when excerpts are posted here. You usually offer quite the retort.

    I will, of course, concede that I did not read the post. I only read the excerpt. Having read your response, however, I’m not entirely sure if that’s relevant. Given that you started your post by calling me out on that, I assumed that I would then be made aware of at least (or more) qualifying statements. That was not the case. So my argument stands. You unequivocally and without exception always certainly speak in extremes.

    Do I want to judge Brady after 12 starts? Yes, I, Jack, do. Might that be short-sighted? Yes. Still doesn’t change that fact that Brady can’t throw farther than I can see…

    …my point was that it’s not “just absurd” to dispel the notion that Seneca could start. Holmgren, who is renowned for his work with quarterbacks, seems to have a decent eye for under-center talent. He doesn’t seem to high on Brady Quinn, does he? This might be insurance freeing him up to trade Quinn, draft a youngster, and give birth to the Seneca transition era.

    You also suggest that Seneca Wallace should be judged because he has never been seen fit to be groomed as a started. Well, he happened to be playing behind Mr. Hustle-back these many years. But, Holmgren never saw fit in all that time to let Seneca go. Rather than tackle the minutiae though, I’ll just refocus the conversation and respond to the crux…

    You write, “Here’s hoping that’s true, and that he shortly nips all this Wallace talk in the bud as soon as is practicable.” My sentiment, “don’t hold your breath.” Because I think Brady Quinn HAS been judged on these 12 starts, fairly or unfairly. Again, I said, I don’t think your wrong. But dismissing the consideration that Seneca ended up taking starting snaps for the Browns is a bit aggressive.

    Thought your diction was interesting too. Not “practical” but “practicable.” Well, there’s no time like the present, right? When would it NOT be practicable to put your quarterback controversy to rest? I mean, surely you’d want to come in, clean things up, pick a direction, and charge ever onward if he was so sure that Brady is going to be his starter next year. For Holmgren I think it is certainly “practicable” but it’s not “practical” because I don’t think he’s done trying to find solutions at that position and announcing Brady as the No. 1 guy and then going and drafting someone or trading for someone would really run a muck here in Believeland. If he wasn’t hoping to make any other moves, he’d probably ave little incentive to delay such a decision. When would be a better time? After he watches him in practice? Is he really going to learn something more from watching that? Even if that were the case, that premise doesn’t fit into your argument because you seem to suggest that Holmgren already knows he’s going with Quinn, so such a move would only be a formality/academic.

    That being said, your claim that “It’s clear that Quinn’s ceiling is much higher, and the potential exists that he could develop into a much more valuable asset than Wallace ever could. The idea that Quinn should or will be judged on his 12 starts so that Wallace can start is what’s hyper bowl,” is partly true. It’s not clear that his ceiling is much higher. It’s such an odd phrase that demands all sorts of logical presumption. If Quinn turns out to be a less athletic career backup, that really doesn’t indicate such a high ceiling. But yes, the potential exists that he could develop into a much more valuable asset. But it’s not hyperbole to argue that Quinn should/will be judged (and I assumed you mean that with the negative connotation) on his 12 starts, because he already has been by many football minds, like those who let him slip to 20, QB starved teams who don’t seem to eager to trade for him, Coach Mangini, countless analysts, and now, maybe, QB-guru Mike Holmgren.

  • Jack

    Eke, sorry, y’allz. For length + type-Os.

    @Matt#2 – Get’cha ready…

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    Jack: That was an awfully wordy response. A few statements worth responding to:

    “You unequivocally and without exception always certainly speak in extremes.”

    No, I don’t, really. Again, you should read more of what I write at my website than just the excerpts here. But yes, I am not afraid to call an absurdity an absurdity when I see it, and the notion that Quinn will be tossed on the scrap heap for Wallace is that, as explained in my post.

    “He doesn’t seem to[o] high on Brady Quinn, does he?”

    Isn’t the point, raised by Holmgren himself in the quote at my post, that it’s impossible to be “high” or “low” on any QB who hasn’t had two seasons of starting under his belt? Another point is that Quinn’s 12 starts have come under remarkably adverse circumstances.

    “When would it NOT be practicable to put your quarterback controversy to rest?”

    This isn’t hard. Before the draft would be one such time, as would the heat of free agency signing period, when there was at least a theoretical chance you could get something of value for D.A. (After all, they got something for Corey Williams, who was sure to be cut anyway).

    “But it’s not hyperbole to argue that Quinn should/will be judged (and I assumed you mean that with the negative connotation) on his 12 starts, because he already has been by many football minds, like those who let him slip to 20, QB starved teams who don’t seem to eager to trade for him, Coach Mangini, countless analysts, and now, maybe, QB-guru Mike Holmgren.”

    It is in fact hyperbole to suggest that any such premature “judging” would be done so that Seneca Wallace could be named starter at the expense of Brady having a chance to start in an offense with some semblance of stability for the first time in his career. Or at least ridiculous.

    Also, to suggest that Mangini has passed any such “judgment” on Quinn is simply wrong, and to pass on a QB in the first round or to choose not to trade for him (which of these QB starved teams you speak of is loaded with tradeable non-QB assets, anyway?) are each something completely different than tossing Quinn on the scrap heap so that a 5’11 seven-year career backup can start. Completely different. Again, it’s really not complicated.

    I hope when Quinn is named the starter in training camp that you’ll show up at Frowns to admit the absurdity of this Seneca Wallace take.

  • bobby

    Agreed with Jack and AMC. There were even reports coming out of cleveland saying no one in the organization thinks that BQ is the future at QB. I dont think he plays another snap in cleveland. Come draft time I would look for a trade of BQ. Maybe we could get a 3rd rounder for him.

  • ben

    Regardless of whether you (the universal you) think Wallace is better than Quinn, or vice-versa NEITHER guy has gotten it done.

    The only notable differences being that Wallace hasn’t gotten it done longer and Quinn couldn’t get it done w/o a Hasselbeck in front of him.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    @bobby: “There were even reports coming out of cleveland saying no one in the organization thinks that BQ is the future at QB.”

    Uh-oh! “Reports coming out of cleveland”!!!

    Was it Kevin Kolb’s agent? Or McNabb’s? Or Jimmy Clausen’s?

    Dang…Quinn’s a goner for sure.

    @Ben: There are a lot of notable differences between Wallace and Quinn. That’s another fact.

  • Charlie

    @ MP34: Color commentary is supposed to be much, much more than hyperbole. They should bring stats, analysis and an insider’s view, that’s why they’re always former players. AC very rarely gives any insight into the game that a junior high player doesn’t already know. I watch a lot of games online and it’s a joy to hear the opposing team’s announcers. They’re not total homers (at least not all of them) and they actually say interesting things.

  • ben

    Well there are a number of differences – some other people may find more notable than others – but let’s call a spade a spade, neither have shown they are very good. At that point, I’m of the opinion that a number of other differences don’t really matter.

    I’m a Quinn guy. I believe the jury’s still out and that he needs a legitimate shot to prove himself. Despite my beliefs though, I need to recognize he hasn’t shown enough of what people generally want to see and that, for one reason or another, the organization and the city have soured on him.

  • bobby

    In 3 starts Seneca had 65 % completions, 700 yards, 3 Pass TDs, 1 Rush TD, and 2 INTs. Definitely played better in start 3, then game 1 (where Im guessing Hasselbeck got injured). Im not claiming huge upgrade, but with decent numbers, a new WCO in cleveland (that he is experienced in) and a solid running game, i just think you cut ties now with Quinn and try to get the best compensation after. If not, then Ill be the first one to come back and admit that Frowns is right.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    You can’t compare Wallace in Seattle to Quinn in Cleveland. Ben: The people who’ve “soured” on Quinn are being unfair.

    The fact remains, as Holmgren has noted, that he’s only started 12 games, and worse, (to quote the Frowns post) twelve games over two seasons under some of the worst circumstances a quarterback could ask for. First, there was three games in the staph-infected offense of the crumbling Crennel regime. (The kid didn’t look bad at all against Denver though, did he?) Then three starts for the cancer-ridden Browns of Braylon’s last and Mangini’s first days with the team. Finally, six more after the cancer was gone, playing with what’s been decisively proven to be the most substandard set of pass-catchers in recent NFL history.

    It makes no sense to punish him for circumstances. Especially not so Seneca freaking Wallace can start. Absurd absurd absurd.

  • stin4u

    I agree with Frowns. I think Quinn needs to be given this season and see what he can do. The guy hasn’t been put in a position to succeed since he has been here. With that said I think Wallace is a guy that can tutor Quinn if they install a new offense. I don’t get why people get so enamored with big arms and being able to bomb the ball 60 yards….give me a guy that can throw 10-15 yards accurately and we’ll win more than we lose. I understand you need to stretch the field at points and for that Brady has a more than adequate arm.

  • Matt#2

    Frowns,

    I think Holmgren’s outlook (having an offense that he recognizes a.s.a.p.) necessitates a reasonable attempt to extrapolate from those 12 games what kind of QB BQ will be in the near-ish term (a major issue, aside from performance and style, will be sturdiness).
    Holmgren may want to start a QB that understands Holmgren’s kind of offense to get it underway (I, as a run-first dinosaur, don’t like to watch Holmgren’s kind of offense). For Holmgren’s plan, a back-up QB familiar with the west coast offense (Wallace) may be better than a serviceable starter who is not a west coast QB (BQ).

    Holmgren may see BQ as better-off elsewhere, because Holmgren maybe can’t shape the offense around whatever weaknesses/strengths are apparent about BQ’s game in the sample Holmgren has, which is all he has to go on (The BQ sample v. the Wallace sample).

    He has does not have a scientist’s luxury of sample upon sample in evaluating these guys, he’s got to make executive decisions now.

  • Jack

    Mr. Frowns,
    Yes, it was exceptionally wordy. More a rant. My apology was directed at you to[o].

    As far as the draft suggestion, I agree that the draft/FA period is one such time. But let’s not for one second be no naive to suggest that DA has trade value that we are somehow “protecting” by not saying Brady is our guy. C’mon. And as to the potential trade of BQ to one of many QB-starved teams…why would it be important that they were loaded with tradeable non-QB assets? We couldn’t get more than a 3rd or 4th rounder for Quinn at this point.

    Also, the playful statement “You unequivocally and without exception always certainly speak in extremes” was a joke. I don’t have a lot of facts about your typical prose, so I made an extreme comment about it without all the information sort of for effect…

    Again, I’m not saying Seneca is the starter. I’m just saying that the acquisition raises for me many more doubts about Brady’s future than it does for you.

    You argue that Mangini hasn’t passed judgment on Quinn, that to say so is “simply wrong.” Really? Then why did he constantly put him on par with DA? Why did he replace Quinn with DA after he played horribly and proved incapable of throwing a 12 yard down and out? Isn’t benching your starter in favor of a guy that you seem to think belongs in the toilet a pretty strong judgment? Or was that still the QB competition?

    Interesting too that you only rebuffed the claim that MANGINI hadn’t made a judgment about Quinn. What about everyone else I mentioned? Besides, it’s pretty likely, Mr. Frowns, that the Browns, Mangini, and Holmgren have, like so many other football minds, decided that Quinn isn’t the answer. They might give him another shot. He might “deserve” it, but it doesn’t change the fact that he doesn’t have the talent to make it happen–regardless of who’s out there to katch dat bawl. I just don’t think trading for Seneca shows a lot of confidence and I’m just not as emphatically certain or overwhelmingly convinced that Brady ends up starting the season or as the starter for the whole season (injuries notwithstanding).

    I will very gladly agree to come to the Cleveland Frowns site and say, yeah, Quinn ended up starting, you were right. Gotta be the best odds in Vegas though, so I don’t think it will be a revelatory moment. I won’t, however, “admit the absurdity of this Seneca Wallace take” because I’ve said nothing that suggests that that is my opinion. This whole pleasant convo began because I said you were a bit two hyperbolic. And you are. It’s not the sure thing you think, and I don’t even know if it would be the best thing for the future of the team. But again, I don’t know. What I do know is that Mangini, Holmgren, and What-the-Heck’s-his name? know much more about it than we do, and to make a move to get a backup QB with a lot of starting experience seems a much more significant hedging of the bets and maybe implies something about how the new front office regards Brady. That’s all. Just think it’s still like George Clooney, up in the air.

    You seem to imply BQ can someday be good. I don’t think he can. But I’m not whole-heartedly opposed to seeing him get a shot in a stable situation. So now that I’ve agreed to satisfy your wish, will you agree to come on here and admit that it might have been a bit of a stretch to argue that the front office doesn’t already know Quinn doesn’t have NFL talent?

  • Jack

    When he ends up not being the starter at some point next season not due in to injury…was supposed to be on there…

    I love the passion of weez Cleveland fans.

  • Matt#2

    PILE ON FROWNS!!!!!!!!!

  • bobby

    @stin4u- Ill give you that guy- Seneca Wallace. Alright, i dont know if i can back that up, but his stats are better. last year he had 65 comp. % and as Craig points out in his article today, he has 59% for his career. Compare that to Quinn who had 53% last year and 52% for his career. Not watching Wallace play I cant back it up… but I know by watching BQ play that he is not an accurate QB.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    Jack: There are a lot of good reasons why Mangini staged a competition between Quinn and Anderson last season. More than 11 million of them. Not worth rehashing here.

    Also, I don’t know why I have to keep repeating this, but Holmgren himself has said it takes two seasons of starting before you can make a reasonable evaluation. Quinn has started 12 games, again, under most adverse circumstances. So again, I do think it’s a tremendous stretch to argue that “the front office doesn’t already know Quinn doesn’t have NFL talent” not least because Holmgren has said as much, but also because, how could anyone know given what Quinn’s had to go through here? (Despite your opinions on Quinn’s arm strength and his potential. Do you really think Matt Hasselbeck has a much better gun?)

    Matt#2: I’m not sure what your point is, and I can’t imagine what the scenario would be where prematurely scrapping Quinn would be the right “executive decision.” Unless, I guess, you were going to draft a rookie who you planned to make the starter right away or had someone in mind who you thought would obviously be better than Quinn. (Who could that be? It couldn’t possibly be Kevin Kolb.)

  • stin4u

    I understand that we haven’t seen much out of Quinn but have you all watched the rest of this team? He started 3 games at the start of the year against 3 very good clubs with good defenses and an o-line that could not run OR pass block to save their life. The play calling was absolutely horrid 3/4 of the year. And our fearless leader who clearly knows him some football yanks him in favor of Derek “triple coverage picks” Anderson, not to mention straddled both with Jamal Lewis for the majority of the year. This team was an absolute MESS and to say that anyone would have performed better than Quinn under similar circumstances is an absolute JOKE.

  • bobby

    Stin4y- I understand BQ had a lot of things goin against him. I mean you dont even mention the WRs who couldnt catch a cold. But there were also plenty of times where he had time to do something and threw an errant pass, or behind a guy. Our OL really was not terrible last year. Many of the sacks were due to the QB (whoever was under center) having to hold the ball for 5+ seconds for a WR to be open. now, the OL wasnt good, but as shown in the last 4-6 games, it could be decent.

  • Jack

    Mr. Frowns, not saying we should scrap. Just don’t think it’d be crazy to find him on the bench, however that happens.

    That was a fun little repartee to start the morning. Look, I want Brady to do well. I’d love for it to happen. I really, really would. And maybe Hass didn’t have a much better “cannon,” but he very accurately zipped the WCO passes in there. Brady struggled mightily to throw accurate slants and short/mid sideline outs last season. He won’t last very long in that system if he can’t. But it would sure be nice if he proved me wrong.

    I just wouldn’t put a lot of stock in every political thing a politician says. Holmgren could’ve said, “I really like the talent we have, and I’m excited to see how it plays out” which would definitely “protect value.” Instead, he didn’t know what to say, and said, “I think you need two years.” Perhaps genuine, perhaps not. I think actions speak louder than words…so yes, we’ll see.
    Very best to you and yours on a lovely Spring-ish day,
    Jack

  • stin4u

    @bobby Agree’d but

    a)thats partially on our WR talent (look how many check downs Quinn was forced to take, not to mention Mo Mass running incorrect routes)

    b)That’s part of his development. You can say what you want about 12 games but the fact is it wasn’t 12 straight starts. Brady’s career has been a variation of the game “red light, green light”. I would argue that those 12 starts really count as less due to the fact no one would stick with him and allow him to learn.

    I just want to be clear..i’m not one of those over the top Brady is the next Manning guys. I’m just saying he needs a shot before anyone can cast clear judgment on him. If he falls flat on his face or regresses this year fine put Wallace in and dump him.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    “Just don’t think it’d be crazy to find him on the bench, however that happens.”

    OK, well, here’s how it wouldn’t be crazy: If Quinn is named the starter in training camp, is given every chance to be the man, and falls terribly flat in a number of consecutive games…not sure how many…six? Or goes out and kills someone. That would be a non-crazy way for Quinn to end up on the bench for Seneca Wallace.

    “Brady struggled mightily to throw accurate slants and short/mid sideline outs last season.”

    Who was he throwing to? The receivers go a long way to making a QB look accurate.

    “He won’t last very long in that system if he can’t. But it would sure be nice if he proved me wrong.”

    Agreed.

    “Very best to you and yours on a lovely Spring-ish day…”

    And to you too.

  • Matt#2

    Frowns,

    My point assumes that Holmgren sees the job at hand being to get a west coast thing going in Cleveland, that the QB is the main liaison between the offense and the coaching/coordinating staff, and that understanding a west coast offense well enough to be the main liaison in establishing a west coast offense is more sure with someone with experience in it (Wallace) than with someone who, while maybe a quick study, doesn’t know what it’s supposed to look like (BQ).

    My point is this: BQ may be reasonably seen as less fit for the job at hand than Wallace.

    “Prematurely” is conclusory, no?

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    “Prematurely” depends on the assumption that twelve starts under the circumstances in which Quinn’s made his twelve is nothing on which to judge a first round QB of Quinn’s pedigree. That’s an assumption I’m quite comfortable with.

    So comfortable that however much better Wallace might be than Quinn right now in Daboll’s (not Holmgren’s) offense, it’s not worth the cost of giving up on Quinn’s potential upside.

  • Matt#2

    Frowns

    (Right, on the Daboll v. Holmgren thing)

    The round in which he was drafted does not add to his value, it was a judgment of value based on limited information. (If we had the luxury of hindsight, BQ may have slipped a round in the draft.)
    His college performance is – in football years – ancient history, and it wasn’t on the ascension when it ended.
    His pedigree?? Irish?

    It’s not just 12 starts, either. He was on the team and in practice, and deemed unfit performance-wise, plan-wise, or health-wise to start more (in a non-west-coast offense).

    “Quinn’s potential upside” – assuming we haven’t already seen it – may cost more to discover than it delivers.
    I would think that, to now change the offensive philosophy, estimating or guessing at such a cost-benefit analysis of mining BQ’s upside is necessary now and, thus, not premature.

    BQ would not be being judged, they must make an educated guess as to whether he’s the man for this job. They may think it’s highly likely that BQ is the man for a starting QB job somewhere else. They may also think that BQ is the man to learn a west coast system here as a backup. They may decide to start BQ, but it’s no slam dunk.

  • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com Cleveland Frowns

    “The round in which he was drafted does not add to his value, it was a judgment of value based on limited information.”

    It’s still based on limited information.

    “It’s not just 12 starts, either. He was on the team and in practice, and deemed unfit performance-wise, plan-wise, or health-wise to start more (in a non-west-coast offense).”

    No, really, it’s twelve starts. He wasn’t going to start as a rookie, then the team was handcuffed after D.A.’s pro bowl year. This is basically his second season in the league thanks to Savage’s terrible failure to get something for D.A. after 2007 like the Chargers got something for Brees when they had Rivers.

    “Quinn’s potential upside” – assuming we haven’t already seen it – may cost more to discover than it delivers.”

    Whatever the cost of starting Quinn this year, it won’t be any bigger than any upside to starting Seneca Wallace, and at least you’ll have given Quinn more than those handicapped 12 starts that he had.

    “I would think that, to now change the offensive philosophy, estimating or guessing at such a cost-benefit analysis of mining BQ’s upside is necessary now and, thus, not premature.”

    Right, and any reasonable estimation says, go with the first round draft pick 6’3 fourth-year guy who’s never had a chance over the 5’11 eighth year career backup.

    “They may decide to start BQ, but it’s no slam dunk.”

    Over Seneca Wallace, really, it is.

  • Matt#2

    Frowns,

    (really.)

    Twelve pro starts provide information (I do not, by the way, stipulate that there is nothing to evaluate in his (sadly mismanaged) NFL career but 12 starts). You’d have to explain how his college performance provides more now in determining whether he is the man for the job at hand.

    “Whatever the cost of starting Quinn this year, it won’t be any bigger than any upside to starting Seneca Wallace.”
    Well, that’s the question.
    Your argument seems to be “go with the first round draft pick 6′3 fourth-year guy who’s never had a chance over the 5′11 eighth year career backup.”

    Quinn’s being a first-rounder is not a premise, sorry.
    Not having a chance, while tragic, is not a premise, either.
    Four inches could matter.
    Four years: Some may say experience over youth, others will say future over past. I think a rub there is that BQ knows the past style of offense and Wallace knows the future style.

    If all that adds up to a slam dunk of Quinn over Wallace for you, then I’d say you’re partial.

  • Matt#2

    … and Wallace may not be a career backup much longer.

  • Matt#2

    I like BQ in Mangini ball. BQ’s got guts. (Maybe he’s a little brittle.) But, as a fan, I’ve grown to want to see BQ next year. But Mangini ball is gone.

    I’d love to see BQ learning the west coast offense as a starter. I’d love to see the whole team trying to get a handle on it.

    Does Holmgren envision that BQ starts while the Browns get a handle on the west coast offense?

    I would not be surprised if the answer to that is “no.”

    I would not at all be dismayed if the answer was “yes.”

    I like BQ.