Royals 9, Indians 3: Is This Rock Bottom?
May 21, 2010NBA Free Agency: To Sign-and-Trade, or Not To Sign-and-Trade?
May 21, 2010I wouldn’t say everyone outside of Cleveland wants LeBron to leave. There have been plenty of national pundits, ex-players, coaches, analysts, etc who have said they’d like to see LeBron stay in Cleveland. So I am not easily surprised by either side of the coin, those who want him to leave and those who want him to stay.
I find it far more shocking and infuriating to see the number of people from Cleveland (and really all of Ohio) who actually either don’t care if LeBron leaves, or in the uncommon, but not rare, instances where they actually are rooting for him to leave. But among those who hope LeBron betrays us all, is it possible the Cleveland Indians are the ones praying the hardest that he leaves? Forbes seems to think so.
In an article titled “Indians Won’t Root For LeBron To Stay”, Tom Van Riper writes:
The Cleveland Cavaliers’ off season arrived a little sooner than expected. But now that it’s here, lots of locals are crossing their fingers that hometown superstar LeBron James, a pending free agent, re-signs with the club. Just don’t count executives of the Cleveland Indians among them.
Already playing in baseball’s third-smallest market, the Indians have discovered that sharing their limited stage with a larger than life star means permanent understudy status, as they play before sparse crowds on a limited budget.
[…]
Should James pack up for New York, Chicago or Miami this summer, Indians owner Larry Dolan and his staff might well afford themselves a private smile.
In the article, Van Riper throws around a lot of numbers, all of which indicate how badly attendance is falling for the Tribe and how the value of the franchise is free falling as well. What he skips over too quickly, however, are the real reasons for the Indians situation.
I’m not going to say that in an economic era where plenty of average Americans have to make sacrifices and choices that having LeBron in town isn’t hurting the Indians’ bottom line. I’m sure some people had to give up one of their season ticket packages in an effort to make some cutbacks, and so of course they gave up the Indians rather than the Cavaliers. But the Indians’ attendance problems cut so much deeper than just LeBron James.
Van Riper also quotes Bernie Mullin, who was a Pittsburgh Pirates executive back when Mario Lemieux was playing for the Penguins, as saying “We never wanted to say it, but we knew darn well [Lemieux’s presence] was affecting us.” Sounds like a sentient point, until you look at the Pirates’ attendance numbers. In 1997, Lemieux’s last season on the Penguins (before his comeback), the Pirates averaged 20,457 fans per game at Three Rivers. In the next 3 seasons after that, they averaged 19,271 fans, 20,348 fans, and 21,591 fans in the last year at Three Rivers. In 2009 they averaged 19,479 fans at PNC Park. I mean, we could blame that on Ben Roethlisberger and Sidney Crosby, or else we could blame it on the fact that the Pirates haven’t finished above .500 in almost 20 years. Your choice.
So it is with the Indians. It’s not like the Tribe were packing Municipal Stadium back in the day, and I doubt that had much to do with Mark Price and Brad Daugherty. Fans are fickle and reactive of the product on the field. Loyalty in sports is a rare trait. We’ve already seen how quickly Cleveland fans are willing to turn on LeBron, so it’s not surprising how quickly those who used to pack Jacobs Field night in and night out stopped showing up as soon as the team’s success began to wane.
More than just the success of the Indians, though, has been the way in which the franchise has put a clamp on all spending and have driven away all the players that we fans cared about. We can only sit and watch you trade away the heart and soul of our teams for so long before we begin to naturally lose interest in spending our money on your overpriced concessions when we can just as easily watch the team fail from the comfort of our own homes with our custom couches and HD televisions.
If LeBron heads to another city, does Forbes really think that suddenly the Indians’ attendance will spike? I doubt it, unless everyone is real excited to see Carlos Santana play in person (which, really, you should be….trust me, that guy is the real deal). Cleveland is a Browns town, and nobody, not even LeBron James, is capable of knocking them off their throne. So the battle in this town is for 2nd place. The Indians have the history advantage over the Cavaliers, but the Cavs have the edge in ownership and front office management.
Does that make LeBron James the tie breaker? Perhaps it does, and maybe the Indians then really do want to see him go. However, should LeBron leave, I think it will leave a dark cloud hanging over this entire city and all of its sports teams, and I fear the sports depression will hit the Indians ever harder. I might be wrong about this, but I don’t see how LeBron leaving is really good for anyone in Cleveland.
33 Comments
My problem with that article is that it’s completely speculative. They didn’t talk to anyone within the Indians. They just assumed it was so. LeBron James has less of an effect on their attendance as trading away Sabathia, Lee and Martinez.
Whether Lebron leaves or not, I still refuse to spend money on the Indians. In February, I bought 5 games for the Cavs next year knowing full well Lebron might be gone, and I would do it again today.
Well said.
Attendance will NOT go up if LeBron leaves, people just won’t go downtown period.
Crazy to think that LBJ is the reason nobody wants to go to Tribe games. Here’s a tip…. win games and people will come. That simple.
If LBJ leaves, is anyone going to suddenly decide they’ll go catch a game?
the problem with attendance this year has nothing to do with LeBron.
however, the problem with attendance in 2007 and the beginning of 2008, very well could have had something to do with LeBron.
the reason is that the market is only big enough for so many entertainment tickets to be purchased and when a team is doing well, they expect and need to win that limited marketplace. however, when your competition is the Browns and LeBron, you cannot win. so, you need to at least maintain your share of the marketplace as best you can. the last 3 major trades (CC, Lee, Victor) have soured the fans though and they have lost shares.
here’s hoping that Westbrook continues his return to form, Carlos Santana is our black magic woman and the Tribe takes back there share.
No Cavs game yesterday and TD and I were the only two in our row – four rows from the field…
It’s funny…no mention of the extra revenue generated by the “get in for 5 bucks” after the cavs playoff games deal, pretty sure Lebron had a hand in helping the tribe earn some extra cash with that one.
I agree with the sentiment about downtown. The whole area is sub-par. As a Cleveland transplant now living in Columbus, it reminds me of Columbus’ downtown pre-arena district. Back in the 90’s, there weren’t many reasons to treck downtown…no entertainment.
Cleveland has the same problem. While it does have the teams and a few shopping and dining areas, it’s not the best area for walking from shopping to sports to restaurants.
As for the Tribe, that’s easy. They stink. Remove the stink and the fans will return.
sorry…trek downtown
I WILL NO LONGER GO TO INDIANS GAMES!
I was part of a season ticket package last year, but gave them up this year since the front office gave up on the idea of competing by trading Lee, CC and Victor. It has nothing to do with LBJ. I love baseball and will still attend a few games, but I refuse to support an organization that sends a clear message that they have no interest in being competitive.
Forbes is selling copy.
I bet there’s a contest every week for a new angle on Lebron James.
Cleveland fans love LeBron because he plays on a winning team, something that this city has been lacking for quite some time. Let’s face it, many of the fans/businesses with the means of attending the Cavs games weren’t attending games before LeBron and won’t be there after LeBron leaves…not for the Cavs (who win) and especially not for the Indians who don’t even try to win.
wasn’t it Forbes who said the Indians were the most hated team in baseball (“proved” through some hokey internet polling)
who at Forbes hates the Tribe so much?
Pffffftttt… the Indians will increase attendance when they stop trading away Cy Young award winners and, thus, stop sucking. Considering the fact that you can’t retain Cy Young award winners in MLB unless you have boat loads of cash, the Indians will probably never stop sucking and, thus, attendance will never increase.
Maybe the stars will align once in the next decade and they’ll make the playoffs or something. That would be nice.
The only thing the Cavs do is shine a 1000watt spotlight on how badly the Indians are managed.
The article could have just said, “Indians image hurt by having deep flaws exposed by successfully operated team.”
Typically unfair to blame the Indians for the current MLB structure. Yes, it sucks to see stars traded, but they didn’t have much choice. Blame it on some poor decisions, dont blame it on spending. Somebody needs to give Paul Cousineau a bigger platform.
Just a wild guess that Lerner and Gilbert might also afford themselves “a private smile” should something negatively affect interest in the other local teams. We are all members of the Secret Chortle Society. Not sure of the point.
By the way, disagree that we local fans are “fickle.” Quite the opposite. It’s pathetic how we want to believe in any sort of pablum fed us each spring and how long it generally takes us to get the message and watch something else. The timing of and return from the Lee trade was the final sledgehammer to the fanbase forehead. We ain’t fickle. Just a little shy of completely obtuse. The product is entertainment and hope. When we see you currently can’t (not won’t, but simply can’t) advance funds to attempt competiteveness, what’s hopeful and entertaining for me? If the product is pure baseball, can sample that a lot cheaper all over the region.
Respectfully, Harv, I must disagree. Cleveland has GREAT Browns fans. Cavs and Indians fans? Not so much. The 2007 Indians played great all year long, and yet the fans never bothered to show up. It was embarrassing. Cavs fans are only there because of LeBron. We’ll see how loyal Cavs fans are if LeBron leaves.
And for the record before anyone starts getting defensive, I’m almost certainly not talking about the people reading and commenting on this site. If you care enough about Cleveland sports to read this site and discuss sports with like-minded fans, then you’re not part of the problem. The problem is more of a big picture thing.
It seems pretty accepted that it takes fans a year plus to catch on with a baseball team. The Marlins and A’s were always complaining when they had their two year windows come and go and never got fans back.
Exactly, Roosevelt. Which shows that fans are reactionary to success. Fans do not support their teams unconditionally, which I believe is a trait of loyalty. Will fans give the Cavs a couple years to rebuild if LeBron leaves? It would be nice, but I doubt it. I expect the Q to become a ghost town until Ferry (or whoever is the GM) can put another winner on the floor.
I agree with Andrew.
Andrew don’t give the Browns fans too much credit. I do remember the last couple of home games threatening blackout. Local businesses and radio stations bought tickets for promotions.
Andrew, you’re right, Browns fans are not like Tribe fans but they are not just normally “loyal” either. They are insane for their level of interest given the decades of stinkdom. But something less than rabid support for awfulness is not fickle. Fickle is an epithet. Fickle is well-dressed crowds for the ’97 Florida Marlins, with empty stadiums before and after. That’s not Tribe fans. Not deserving of fickle status if I don’t want to toss my $ to an owner who can’t toss some of his own in the kitty to keep my interest. I saw them dump Tiant and Chambliss and Nettles (aw, look ’em up) and many others since to save a buck but kept watching. Seen this movie before. Just saying, no epithets, please.
Lets hope the value of the tribe drops low enough for a better owner to buy the team, assuming theyll actually try to win and not move the team.
Baseball’s a business, so at what point do we get concerned that the Dolan’s will pull a Modell and up and leave? Or sell to someone that isn’t so vested in the city? The longer I see attendence of <10,000, and multi-million dollar losses, I get more nervous. Losing a 100+ year old ball team would be a bigger travesty than the Browns, in my opinion.
Craig, I think that is a realistic possibility. But I’m not sure where the team would move. I don’t know of any cities crying for a baseball team. Attendance is hurting everywhere. I see empty seats at New York Yankees games.
BECAUSE THEY ARE ON ESPN EVERY SINGLE NIGHT!!!!! (not sarcasm, actual yelling)
It could be the Yankee fans don’t want to pay thousands of dollars or it could be that the fans are hurt by the economy. Who knows? Maybe both.
But yes, losing the Indians would be tough. And a crime the players union and the owners should pay for. CAN WE PLEASE GET A SALARY CAP ALREADY! (yelling)
I don’t think anyone wants LeBron to leave.
It’s a psychological defense mechanism to say “I don’t care” when you really do. When you get burned enough you have to put up that front.
And yes, Lebron leaving will not make the Indians better.
They are fooling themselves if they think that people are not attending games for any other reason than it is a poor product. Give me someone other than Asdubal to watch and I’ll go. I don’t need guaranteed wins to watch, but a reasonable chance at a W and I’ll go.
I WANT TO WATCH A GOOD TEAM FROM CLEVELAND. NOT SOMETHING THAT GIVE CLEVELAND CRITICS MORE AMMUNITION!!!
/not sarcasm.
I of course want LeBron to stay in Cleveland. But I REFUSE to read one more article about the subject. I am so sick and tired of hearing news that is not news. If your in Cleveland and writing about sport news the only thing you have to write about is the Indians. Two months from now, or so, when LeBron chooses what he wants to do then and only then will these stories have legs.
Cleveland is the 3rd smallest market? How does he figure? Cleveland is listed as the 17th largest market in the US. There are 30 teams in the league… something doesn’t add up.
Maybe third smallest by attendance.
im sorry where does he get this third smallest market in MLB statistic? i can honestly say I feel thats complete garbage. I mean is he speaking TV markets? check this page:
http://www.baseballnewsshare.com/139885-mlb-market-size-rankings-seattle-mariners-a-large-market-team/
Though I feel the tribes market value depends a lot on how they are doing, its pretty clear to me we are not at the bottom.