June 19, 2013

NBA Free Agency: To Sign-and-Trade, or Not To Sign-and-Trade?

As we have done in the past, this morning we want our loyal readers to get a glimpse into “how the sausage is made” behind the scenes here at WFNY. This is another in the long line of WFNY email chains that spawn great debate. This one is a back and forth discussing the notion of: if you were Danny Ferry and Dan Gilbert, would you consider doing a sign-and-trade with LeBron James to another team?

DP: I heard Jalen Rose say something interesting on M&M this morning while commuting. In Rose’s opinion, if he were Danny Ferry he *wouldn’t* entertain a sign-and-trade under any circumstances because: if LeBron wants to leave, he should have to do so without the extra money he’d get from a sign-and-trade from Cleveland. Which I think begs an interesting question: is it worth it to give LeBron the cash and trade him to help rebuild the roster, or if he’s leaving does that tick you off enough to scuttle your team in the interest of not giving LeBron the extra $30 mill?

Scott: I’ve been debating a piece on those exact lines for a few days. Definitely a conundrum.

Rick: The sign and trade thing would be so that a team LeBron is going to would have enough cap space to sign another FA.

Denny: Obviously the other team would need cap space to get a FA, because I would hope that the Cavs would at least do their best to scuttle the other roster and get any decent pieces they could from them in “exchange” for his Kingness. I don’t like the idea of it either – I agree with Jalen Rose. /vomits

DP: Yes, but could the Cavs use that to their advantage to get a piece and a couple of picks or something in return? It’d be better than losing him for nothing, and in theory Cleveland wouldn’t be paying the extra money. Refusing to do a sign-and-trade from the Cavs perspective—to me at least—would be ONLY about sticking it to LeBron and forcing him to take less money. It wouldn’t do anything positive for the franchise, IMHO. I guess I’m of the mind that if LeBron wants to go, let him go. But if he wants to go somewhere like Dallas, make Dallas have to hamstring themselves and get your own franchise a little better in the meantime. But, then again, I’m vindictive like that.

Rick: It would be an option to explore if LeBron went to a Western Conference team. NO WAY should they do a sign and trade with Chicago. Give them Rose, LeBron and another star via FA? How would we ever win the division again?

DP: I think that’s fair, Rick. That’s sort of why I went with Dallas in my analogy. I can’t see the Cavs doing a sign-and-trade with Chicago, because Chicago has enough room to sign him without it. I guess if I could reiterate, I would frame my question in the context of going to a team with not enough cap space already.

Andrew: Unless the Cavs are getting an All-Star (a REAL all-star) in return, absolutely under no circumstances should they do a sign and trade. You want to leave, LeBron? You’re taking less money then to do so. We’re not helping you out. And this isn’t spite, this is smart business sense on an NBA economics level. The best asset you can have to build a team is always cap space. Take the cap space if LeBron leaves, and try to trade Jamison and Mo if possible for more expirings, and then start the process all over again.

DP: I guess that’s the fundamental question, Andrew: if he does want to leave, is it officially time to blow everything up? I would guess that draft picks wouldn’t be worth very much in a sign-and-trade, as most of the teams in question would probably be picking toward the bottom of the round in the following year, so in that respect I can see why you wouldn’t want to do it either.

Scott: If picks aren’t enough, what players would be? Kevin Durant is the only guy I would be willing to accept, and would *still* want additional compensation. Tyreke Evans, Brook Lopez, etc. All nice, young pieces. But this is LeBron James.

Craig: If LeBron leaves then Mo and Jamison have to be traded.  No question in my mind.

TD: Thing is, who wants Antawn for two more years and $28 million? Even moreso, does anyone really have any interest in a point guard who isn’t really a point guard, can’t defend, and has shown he folds in the playoffs?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, Luol Deng isn’t carrying the Cavs to a title on his back. You need a superstar in this league to be good. If LeBron leaves, the Cavs need to get a new one. You can either find one in the lottery (like Durant) or you can use your cap space to sign one (much harder to do). The Cavs have played the “flirt with mediocrity” game before, and it wasn’t great: limping into the playoffs with a .500 record and getting bounced in the first round year after year. I’m not interested in that. When LeBron leaves, it’s time to get to work on building the next great Cavs team.

Brendan: “When” LeBron leaves… not “if.”  Yikes.  Gilbert is a smart businessman but also has an ego that I do not think would make him a willing partner in the departure of LeBron – a historical moment.

Andrew: Haha, oops. Freudian slip??

Craig: I didn’t say it would be easy or you would get great value, but keep in mind this is the same league that found a home for aging, arthritic Tracy McGrady.

Denny: On the Knicks – solely for the cap space this summer. If the Cavs lose out on LeBron, they need to take advantage of the people hoping to get a shot at next year’s free agents when dumping Jamison and Mo.

Rick: Mo Williams and Jamison have much better trade value than Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall and Ben Wallace. Just sayin’.

TD: Thats true, but Larry Hughes turned into Ben Wallace essentially (wash of horrific contracts). Ben did turn into Shaq, but that was a salary dump. So was Donyell. Mo and Antawn aren’t in that same category. They have years and big money left.

Andrew: Jamison will be easier to trade than Mo will be. The Cavs were willing to take Jamison on, and so will another playoff team who feels they need just a little more to compete. But I have no clue who would take on Mo. But we said the same thing about Little Larry Hughes, and Ferry still got that deal done, so never say never with Ferry.

TD: True, about Antawn, but how many teams, maybe 4-5 tops, would be able to do that? Especially in this climate?

Denny: Whichever team wants the ‘perfect answer for Orlando’ will take him. And TD, the climate is different in the south. They don’t get snow or anything.

Andrew: Never underestimate the desperation and stupidity that persists among NBA GMs. Bill Simmons has made an entire career of laughing at these fools. Sure, it sounds unreasonable, but “untradeable” guys/contracts get traded every single season. It’s just the way the league works.

Craig: If LeBron leaves and the Cavs blow it up and build through the draft over time, do you want Danny Ferry running the show? His draft record is mediocre at best, right?

Andrew: His draft record is incomplete. He’s had few draft picks, and the ones he’s had have been mid to late first round. I still hate the Eyenga pick, but Hickson was a great pick at #19. I 100000000% want Ferry to be the one rebuilding this team “IF” LeBron leaves.

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So, there you have it, readers. Another rambling screed from your friends at WFNY. What do you all think? Would you be willing to entertain sign-and-trades for LeBron James? If so, what would you *have* to get back in return? If not, why not?

  • Clown Baby

    Draft picks? So, let’s say we did a S&T with either Dallas or Chicago, landed a few of there castoffs and some draft picks. What overall pick would those picks be from either one of two playoff teams? At best, the mid-20′s? It doesn’t add up to anything more then us helping LeBron out of town and getting nothing in return.

  • Clown Baby

    ^
    I meant “their.”

  • saggy

    NEVER sign and trade here. i agree with Lyon (#2): I would NEVER want to be the guy who traded LeBron. You could get laughed at for the rest of existence (I’m looking at YOU, Harry Frazee).

  • Eli

    I think cavs should come out and say no way will they sign and trade him, but if he ends up leaving anyways we should definitely explore that option more…

  • http://www.60bpm.com/ Robbie

    Oh man… anyone see the “LeBron James Watch” section on SI.com?!?

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/lebron-james-watch/

    Wicked.

  • MattyFos

    Is there any way to please ANYBODY in here? The people who say no to sign and trade are the same people who are mad that Thome and Manny left, leaving Cleveland with nothing. Yet, they’re the same people who get mad that Cleveland traded away CC and Cliff Lee and got prospects in return. It doesn’t make sense. Either you believe in..
    A. Getting a return value on a departing player
    B. Cutting ties and getting nothing in return

    You cannot have both.

  • MattyFos

    Why am I the voice of reason in here? I’m supposed to be the crazy hypothesis guy.. What is this “LBJ Free Agent Watch 2010″ turning Cleveland fans into? It’s not normal… I’m not used to being one of the few sane voices in the choir.

  • Mark

    @MattyFos – Apples and oranges buddy. MLB and the NBA are not the same. What a lot of us are saying is that you will not get option A – return value on a departing player – by trading LeBron. The value in the NBA is cap space and lottery picks. You get those by letting LeBron walk rather than trading him (if you cannot re-sign him of course).

  • MattyFos

    Mark- Yes, and treating a player like LBJ with content and acting childish because he wants to leave will really help us sign players with the cap space we acquire.
    I didn’t say equal value. Getting anything back is better than nothing. Do you expect the team to sit on the 11.5 million they would have if LBJ left? I don’t. I expect them to spend it on a free agent this year hoping to salvage a season. Or spend some on Z hoping to convince the fans to show up to see Z’s “Swan Song” So, it’s not like we’re going to save money for later on down the road.

  • Chi-hioan

    I don’t understand why people are suggesting letting Bron walk just to “clear cap room” for 2011. If we can’t keep our own homegrown free agent talent, what makes u think we can persuade another elite free agent to come here? I love my home state as much as anyone but I can’t see any big name wanting to play in Cleveland. We need to aquire players via trade or through the draft. People, FREE AGENTS ARENT COMING.

  • stin4u

    Anyone see the story being run on ESPN about Bosh wanting a sign and trade…to one of five cities…..a source says he’d like to end up wherever Lebron does.

  • stin4u

    excuse me I should clarify it is on espn.com

  • Bill

    Does anyone find it sickening that we built the team last year to beat Boston, yet lost to Orlando. This year’s team is build to take down the Magic but we lose to Boston.

    If anything I would like to see Mr.’s Ferry & Gilbert build this team so that others have to match up with US!

  • MattyFos

    Spending the 11 million on a player like Carlos Boozer (not realistic. Just making a point) would hurt the team more than trading for one of the scenarios I put out. Getting players like Darren Collinson, Serge Ibaka, Jeff Green or Marc Gasol who have short contracts and tons of upside could be used as trading chips in 2-3 years.
    Or, we could resign them and build our team as a team, not around one player. The Jazz use that concept. A talented starting 5 that isn’t made up of max contracts. Except of course AK47, but he doesn’t count because he plays like he makes 8 mil a year not 16 mil a year. The Spurs grew their young nucleus into a constant contender and are doing it again with George Hill and DaJuan Blair.

  • Daredent

    Here we go Brownies … HERE WE GO!!!

  • Arthur

    I found the perfect way to fix the Cavs. First off, I would like to say that the talent surrounding LeBron is a bunch of mediocre players, nothing spectacular. LeBron needs to be surrounded by great players, not just ok players.

    The type of personell the cavs need. A better PG, SG, PF, C & a good bench. They need a #2 scorer, good low post scorer, a good 3 points shooter. Defensive wise LeBron is the only good defender on the team. For defense they need big man who can block shots and defend the paint and a guy who can get more steals.

    So who should leave? West, Mo Williams, Jawad Williams, Parker and Jamison.

    Who should the Cavs get in either free agency or trade?
    PG Devin Harris of the Nets, PG Baron Davis of the Clips, SG Rip Hamilton of the Pistons, PF Al Jefferson of the Wolves, SG Larry Hughes of the Cats, PF Troy Murphy of the Pacers, SF Trevor Ariza of the Rockets, C Samuel Dalembert of the 6ers, PG Chris Paul of the Hornets, PF Luis Scola of the Rockets, Monta Ellis of the Warriors, & lastly Tyrus Thomas of the Cats

  • S-Dub

    If LeBron is this GREAT, one of the best of all time players, then why do people constantly say that he needs to be surrounded with great players too? Aren’t the GREATS supposed to elevate their teammates and truly make them better? I think LBJ holds some of his teammates back because they are afraid to take the shot or take over the game because he HAS to get his shots. We all know this team is at it’s best when LBJ is scoring 22 points with his 8-10 boards and 8 assists. Just sayin.

    He also hasn’t ever helped any of his teammates get better has he? Only JJ and Andy have been greatly affected by LBJ’s presence. Z was an All-Star caliber guy before LBJ even though he was robbed by foot injuries, then age. Marshall, Jones, Hughes, Shaq, etc. regressed when playing around LeBron James. It’s also an indictment on James that NO FA has ever taken less money to play with him. Ray Allen said no thanks, Michael Redd said uh no thank you, Hughes was grossly overpaid. I know it isn’t all James’ fault. But some of the blame has to be focused on him right? Why was Delonte successful here in CLE when playing with James? Because he would waive James off, take the ball into his own hands, and create offense. No other player has been able to do that with James for what ever reason.

    BUT, on to the sign and trade. Don’t forget that if we trade LBJ we get a trade exception that will be worth $16.78M. That’s HUGE for our rebuilding because we can use that to land another max player or get a team that is trying to dump salary with 2 good players (I.E. David West and Chris Paul, not saying it’s realistic, just giving an example.)

    Say LBJ wants to go out and play in Dallas. Sign and trade him for picks and Roddy Beabouis. We get that huge trade acception, that we can let expire or actually use on a great player. Then, If we could make a separate deal w/ Dallas as a wink wink thing to get LBJ there, trade Jamison for Erika Dampier’s contract, which can be voided and won’t count against the cap.

    Then suddenly we can go into the 2011 off season with Only Mo ($9.3M) Andy ($7) (Delonte voided after LBJ leaves), Boobie ($4M, I think he’s trade-able with his stroke) Jamario at $3M, but is def tradeable, AP and Bassy come off the books. That just leaves JJ and FA filler X on our team plus lottery pick. That’s only $25.6M before the lottery pick. If the cap stays at about $56M that leaves us $30.5M under the cap before lottery pick. Say we get the #1 pick, that’s only going to count for $5M (Blake Griffin’s salary that’s $25.5M, assuming JJ is still around. That could be 2 great FA’s at $12M/yr, 1 guy at $16M who is a max guy and another good player at $9M, plus lottery guy, Andy, Mo, JJ, Kahn and Eyenga. Not to bad to start a rebuilding process. Just sayin.

    All that being said. Just sign LBJ.

  • S-Dub

    Oh ya, Ariza and Artest told LBJ to pack a lunch too when it came to coming to play with him.

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