Orioles 14, Indians 8: Walks (and Defense) Do the Tribe In
August 11, 2010Cleveland Cavaliers 2010-11 Schedule
August 11, 2010While on the one hand it was nice to see LeCharles Bentley stand up for Cleveland on Twitter yesterday, it also feels a bit dirty. Yesterday LeCharles Bentley had some choice words for Braylon Edwards and his most recent criticisms aimed at Cleveland. The only problem is that LeCharles decided that the best way to get back at Braylon Edwards for dissing Cleveland was a thinly veiled gay joke. You know, because there is nothing worse in the world you could call someone other than gay, right? I won’t quote it directly here. You can take my word for it, and if you really need to figure out what he said, you can find it pretty easily with The Google.
I am sure a lot of people will just say that it is a cultural thing in the NFL. Some will say that guys who are programmed to take each other’s heads off on each and every play of the NFL season need some leeway with regard to their cultural sensitivity. These are not politicians or clergymen, and people need to consider the sources of statements when judging said statements.
When Kevin Smith’s Chasing Amy movie came out a lot of pro-gay groups came out and criticized the movie because one of the characters in the movie, Banky portrayed by Jason Lee, made a lot of anti-gay jokes. Kevin Smith, at the time, was blown away that anyone wouldn’t consider the source as he had the anti-gay jokes delivered by the dumbest character in the script. Maybe in the same vein, we shouldn’t really look to former NFL offensive linemen for cues on cultural sensitivity.
LeCharles Bentley’s statement about Braylon Edwards is a reminder of culture in the NFL we watch every week. To date, there has never been an openly gay NFL player. Also to date, I believe there are only three former NFL players who have come out of the closet, most notably, Esera Tuaolo in 2002. Depending on what statistics you believe, there are anywhere between two and five percent of the population that are homosexual. Even if by some scientifically proven fact the rate happens to be lower in the NFL it would still be just that. Lower. That means that there are some NFL players in the present that are unable or unwilling to admit who they are because of the culture created around the game. The easily tweeted message from LeCharles Bentley is proof of that.
Maybe you are fine with that. I know a lot of people don’t think anyone’s sexuality should ever be anyone’s business regardless. Maybe you are satisfied with the militaristic “don’t ask, don’t tell” policies that have existed for quite a while. Still, when a former player who also happens to still be in the media feels free to tweet an anti-gay slur on Twitter to call out a former Cleveland Browns player, I think it at least deserves a little discussion.
117 Comments
jack: “Has anyone asked their gay friend whether or not they’re offended?”
i have actually (a few friends). none have been remotely offended. just a small sample obviously but throwing it out there.
DP – i didnt say it was ok. plus, making “borderline racially insensitive comments to your minority co-workers” is vastly different than what lecharles did here.
In what way? He made a “borderline” (we’ve established it’s ambiguous at best) comment that could be interpreted as insensitive to gays (in that it’s somehow a negative thing to be gay). Gays are a minority.
any type of workplace racism/sexism should never be tolerated. lecharles and braylon do not have a co-worker relationship, an agent/principal relationship or any other type of relationship (as far as we know!).
Why is intolerance to be banned *only* in the workplace? So, by your rationale, as long as I don’t insult people I work with I as a white person can walk down the street and say something like, “What’s up, my [N-word]?” to a random black person–or shoot, even to one of my black friends–because I don’t have a relationship with anybody I meet on the street? They shouldn’t be offended, because I don’t really mean anything by it; I’m just trying to be friendly. How could they misinterpret that?
also, DP, you don’t know me and i could very well be in any particular “minority” group. in fact, i probably am.
And I wasn’t saying that you weren’t a member of *some* minority group. In fact, that specific comment to which you’re referring was different from the one that I addressed to you specifically in response to something you had said. My “majority/minority” comment was more a generalization of the attitude here. If we have gay commenters (not that it matters), I can’t imagine they’d feel comfortable reading this comments list and replying with, “Well, I’m gay and if LeCharles was making a reference to BE being gay I’m upset by that” because it’s been made quite apparent by a great many commenters here that they shouldn’t feel offended and it’s not a big deal. That atmosphere in these comments has already been set. And I’m perhaps guilty of the generalization that most of the people who weighed in on this issue aren’t in fact gay. If I’m wrong in that assertion, my apologies, folks.
In short, how is it any worse to assume someone might be offended than it is to assume they shouldn’t be?
I think the real problem is that people consider calling someone gay an insult.
@Andrew – sorry to have gone all literal on you 🙂
I don’t think there is a winning argument to be made on either side of this subject to be honest. But I think as a whole, looking at this statement (regardless of negative implications or not), and saying it’s a no no is silly. I have plenty of homosexual friends that would look at that statement and laugh just as hard as I did. Just because a statement is made that offends a few in the group (over simplifying I know), doesn’t mean that it’s immediately over the top simply because it relates to a political “hot button” issue.
wait, we are all missing an important point.
Braylon said Cleveland doesn’t have social networking? Did LeCharles drive out to Indy or up to Toronto so that he could get through the anti-social-networking police on the North Coast?
Is it offensive if I call mgbode a thief for stealing BP’s joke from comment #40?
🙂
Not to be overly critical (seriously I’m not) but shouldn’t the subject read “implying” instead of “calling”?
to clarify: “public forum” like social networking on the internet. not a
@ 24 – Well done! I am still laughing.
DP, Not trying to pile on, but the problem in the first place IS the assumption, one way or the other.
Why can’t we make ambiguous comments at each other? It’s funny people. Braylon sure loves to eat his cake, Braylon didn’t have a paci as a kid, he just liked to chew on his pillows, Everytime we go cart ride, Braylon always takes the pole position.
They might be a little insensitive, but to 999 of 1000 people, these statements are funny. Bentley made a joke. Did you refuse to laugh during the first season of Chappelle, when 99% of the jokes were aimed at white people? Of course you didn’t.
Those that suggest a gay man has to say its offensive first, are wrong. A straigt man can be offended by gay jokes, and a white man can be offended by black jokes. To say otherwise just means you have never truly been in a minority or truly been offended. I think those of us that have been on the recieving end can emphasize when another minority or group is made fun of because we know what that hurt feels like, even if that particular joke wasnt directed at us.
And I can assure you gay people were offended by the joke before pepole started disccusing it. They dont need others to tell them it was offensive, they already knew. Even if they didnt have the courage to say so.
@DP and BP – I hadn’t read it, but we’ll give full credit to BP and he can use my variation of the joke at the local watering cooler if it so please him.
@58 Jack
When commedians tell jokes they are not mean spirited, but when you intentionally call someone gay in an attempt to insult them, there is diference. When Chappelle jokes about white people, I dont think to myself, this guy must hate white people and that he must think down on white people. But when Bentley implies being gay as a method of insult, I do think he must not like gay people. See the difference?
They might be a little insensitive, but to 999 of 1000 people, these statements are funny.
Jack, not to pile on, but you’ve failed to address WHY so many people think those jokes are funny. Maybe I’m that 1 out of 1000 people that you cite, but I don’t find the humor there. Why? Because there’s nothing funny in your jokes.
Please, explain the humor part so that I can understand why making gay jokes isn’t insensitive.
What I am getting at is I am comfortable with my black friends and can even tell black jokes around them and they arent offended. But if during an argument I came back with you are a (n-word), You better believe there would be problems.
The delivery and the reason for the statement is what makes it more offensive. The fact that Braylon blasted Cleveland and Bentley’s come back is that Braylon is gay is why he comments are offensive. Not because he made a bad joke.
DP – you are reading way too far into what i said. i am not saying it is ok to make a dumb/insensitive joke on twitter but not that same joke to a co-worker. i am NOT saying it should be banned only in the workplace. the point is you cannot compare making an insensitive joke in a public forum to that in a work environment – not because the severity of the nonsensitive comment or the stupidity is different but just because the workplace has a whole different set of rules that don’t necessary apply to “the real world”. there’s a ton of workplace-related sexual harassment race discrimination lawsuits that support that. there is no real excuse for making an insensitive insulting comment to anyone at any time, but the same comment made in one forum (not work related) can have very different meanings, interpretations or ramifications as that same comment made to a co-worker.
just saying a stupid comment made on twitter is a different ballgame from a stupid comment made at work to a co-worker. thats all. dont read into it any more than that and please don’t put stupid things in my mouth, like in your second paragraph of post 51.
“When commedians tell jokes they are not mean spirited,” Andrew Dice Clay strongly disagrees.
Which is why so many people dont like dice clay…again if listening to their comments I think this person must really hate those people, then its not funny to me.
Maybe the teams need to take some time that someone lets them know that words do couse pain. I rember a kid that killed himself in Highschool becouse he was afraid of the reacation that his dad would have if he found out he was gay. Dad was our high school foot ball parent, and lived for football, so It’s conected and each on of our actions affects everyone around us…
tribefan, First, there is no way to tell any comedians’ stance on how they feel about a specific group without asking them. So the assumptions begin again, which is why we’re having this conversation. Why aren’t we up in arms about BE profiling Cleveland as some podunk, no social network having, dull light city? Because it’s a stupid comment. I’m sure the people in NYC thought it was funny, just as (I would say the strong majority) people in Cleveland thought Bentleys comment was funny. Second, who know’s what LB’s intent was? Making a joke, insulting? We don’t even know he was saying D$%^s go in his mouth. WE DON’T KNOW. Only he and the Holy Trinity, not you, certainly not I.
In regards to your comment at 63, Bentley didn’t call him a h*m*, which would be synonymous to your scenario, and does not apply.
DP, I prefaced that last comment with, “It may be insensitive.” It is. I get it, but we’d all be a little better off de-sensitized. Ask tribefan why it’s funny, he’s the one that can make black jokes to his black friends. Why do comedians always talk about hot button issues? Ratings? They want to keep people on edge, bring light to real world situations. 17 Mexicans arrested in Arizona-not funny. 17 Mexicans arrested in Arizona while eating at Taco Cabana–not really. 17 Mexicans arrested in Arizona in the parking lot at Home Depot while warming their burritos on the dashboard of the one truck they all drove there in, now thats a little funny.
I dunno about you guys, but I’m offended by whats going on in this comments section.
Why aren’t we up in arms about BE profiling Cleveland as some podunk, no social network having, dull light city?
You must not read this blog much.
I agree with you tribefan30. Delivery and intent are crucial in terms of separating joke from insult. The joke is funny because the audience understands that it is a joke, that underneath it there is some level of acceptance. Maybe others disagree, but I don’t think that we have reached this point with homosexuality. As I said before, homosexuality is considered a sin by some organized religions and there are laws that put homosexual couples in a different category than heterosexual couples. Moreover, “open” homosexuality is still a choice whereas race is not. People choose to “come out” and be open with their sexuality. If there was general acceptance, then nobody would be afraid to be open. How do you think it feels for a gay person to hear comments like the one posted on Twitter?
@47 Jack
I agree that oversensitivity can yield more hate than acceptance, but I don’t think that this article is an example of oversensitivity. It simply incited a discussion about whether or not it is socially acceptable to imply that being gay is something negative. This isn’t Jesse Jackson claiming that Dan Gilbert has a slave master mentality. There is no debate here – it is a fact that people use the word gay in a derogatory way. The debate is whether or not we should be comfortable with it as individuals and as a society. The fact that this comment was a tweet illustrates how socially acceptable it is to casually imply that homosexuality is something about which to be embarrassed. I think that casually using the word gay to describe events or people in a negative light is really damaging to social progress.
“Everyone deals with discrimination in one way or another. PC stands for Providing Cause. Just another excuse for people to argue, b*tchers to b*tch, and overreactors to do just that.” So instead of trying to reduce discrimination, we should simply accept it or rationalize it?
I hope you recognize the irony that a simple discussion about a tweet “provided cause” for you to complain and overreact.
One last thing on why I am de-sensitized to this possibly, could be, and insult towards gay folks, and the majority of racial, religous, whatever comments. Being in the military, whatever branch, is a brotherhood. It is not a normal office 9-5. Comments that are heard on a daily, weekly and whatever basis would not be tolerated in the work place, I get it. You know what, sometimes people get offended, and they handle it. “Over the line,” and thats it. A boundary was crossed, and everyone knows it. Think about the NFL now. A brotherhood, of 1% of 1% of 1% of all the people in the world, that live and die and get injured and go through all these things on a daily basis. The media makes this stuff a big deal. WFNY makes this a big deal. I, and I bet the (once again) strong majority of readers here, would never have thought twice about the comment yesterday until there was an entirely unneccessary post written today, making it a big deal. If you think there are gay men in the NFL, I agree with you. If you think all of these men are in the closet and none of their teammates know about, you’re deluding yourself. But there I go assuming things….. Personally, I’d like to ask Fujita or Hines Ward or () Takamatsu how much flak they catch for being a couple of the very, very few asian players in the NFL. Maybe there’s a corollary, maybe not.
@Jack
Comedians joke about stereotypes that are associated with groups of people. The tweet in question was not a joke about a stereotype associated with being gay – it was implying that being gay in and of itself is the problem. That is the difference.
I do, DP, and read that post. And it was filled with NE Ohioans calling him a turd. Not Michigans, no Nebraskans, not Texans. Where’s the gay community outrage? Where’s Jesse? It’s non-existent outside this site. Google Bentley and search the news, the only related story is WFNY. I can’t put it any better than stin all the way back at 4, “mountain out of a mole hill.”
DP – you are reading way too far into what i said. … the point is you cannot compare making an insensitive joke in a public forum to that in a work environment
I know that’s your point, actually. What I’m asking is why.
…not because the severity of the nonsensitive comment or the stupidity is different but just because the workplace has a whole different set of rules that don’t necessary apply to “the real world”. there’s a ton of workplace-related sexual harassment race discrimination lawsuits that support that. there is no real excuse for making an insensitive insulting comment to anyone at any time, but the same comment made in one forum (not work related) can have very different meanings, interpretations or ramifications as that same comment made to a co-worker. just saying a stupid comment made on twitter is a different ballgame from a stupid comment made at work to a co-worker. thats all.
I find this to be a total non-sequitur in logic. I don’t see how this comment by LCB would be any different if they were teammates than it is now when they’re not. How would it have a different “meaning”? How would it have a different “interpretation”?
The only real difference is the notion of ramifications that you touch on: I can get fired for making racial slurs ([edit] or gay slurs, or comments about the boobs of my co-workers, etc. [/edit]) in my office whereas there may not be consequences if I make them out on the street. Does that make them MORE wrong in the workplace because I’m facing consequences? Does it make random people on the street less uncomfortable? That’s where you lose me in your argument.
You say a stupid comment on Twitter is not the same ballgame as a stupid comment in the workplace, and I would disagree; a stupid comment is a stupid comment, and reflects back on the potential stupidity of the person making it, regardless of where they make it.
dont read into it any more than that and please don’t put stupid things in my mouth, like in your second paragraph of post 51.
I wasn’t putting any words in your mouth. I was rhetorically asking if I followed your logic correctly by using a different example that I viewed as consistent with what I thought your argument was. Nothing else was intended.
Jack, I think I see what our differnece is. Your missing the difference of whats a joke. Chappelle making jokes about white people it is about a way a certain race does something. Like white people cant dunk a basketball. Its just poking fun at the fact that most black people can naturally jump hiring. Its not necesarily faulting white people because that cant jump as high.
But its when you start using the group as a punch line is when it is different. Saying (or implying) that someone is gay and using that as the punch line its not a funny joke. Bentley implied BE is gay and that was his punch line, as if to say being gay is funny. Thats not a joke at that point, its an insult.
So if I say I joke around with my black friends, I do so poking fun at both of us, such as how fast we are or how high we can jump. I dont tell them…”Your so black”. Again, that wouldnt be a joke.
Does that help?
Human
Where did he imply that?
Maybe we’ve all forgotten what was actually written:
“Braylon Edwards back bashing Cleveland: Nothing that comes out of his mouth or goes into surprises me: decode @ your own discretion!”
Perhaps an individual’s subconscious insecurities, past experiences, and individual lifestyles, will lead them to interpret that message in any number of ways, however, as I said earlier, only lB and God know what he really “implied.”
Jack, I’m not outraged. I don’t think the intention of the actual post by Craig–not including the comments that resulted organically from it–was to fan any flames of outrage or actually make a mountain out of it. We’re not calling for any kind of punishment or trying to lead any Crusades here, for sure.
To be honest re: the actual Tweet itself, I’m not upset or outraged, really. Moreover, I just don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense. I read it as: “I’m not surprised Braylon would say that, since he’s gay and all.” That, too, is a total non-sequitur in logic by LCB.
But, speaking only for myself, I found the point of Craig’s piece to be centered more on the notion that it’s such a non-issue to make the “gay-as-negative” implication in such a public forum and NOT have more people think it’s not OK. And, whether people agree or not, these comments kind of bear that out.
Also, Fujita is not Asian; he was adopted by Japanese parents as a kid. Just FWIW…
IIRC Sealed, weren’t you the one’s getting ludicrously, insanely, and redundantly indignant over the “LBJ apology” & corresponding article?
…maybe you offended him… 🙁
tribefan
No it doesn’t help. See my previous comment on the word “imply.” I want to understand this though. If BE was openly gay, and LCB said the exact same thing, except more bluntly, then it would be a joke? Because gay people really do put things in their mouths? But because he isn’t (we don’t know that for sure, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, thanks Seinfeld) it’s an insult? Or is it more along the lines of if it’s true, it’s a joke. But if its a sterotype, it’s not. I guess we don’t agree.
Jack, no. Speaking again for only myself, it’s the inference that LCB is saying that Braylon is saying stupid things because he’s gay that’s why I don’t perceive it as a joke.
An aside: If Braylon is gay but is closeted, it’s a totally insensitive thing to out somebody. Coming out publicly is a huge deal. Even if Bentley knows that Braylon is gay (hypothetical), it’s a totally unchill move.
As an aside, what I personally found so brilliant about Chappelle’s Show was that he was able to poke fun at the simple stereotypes of ALL races–including his own–without going to the point of implying that those stereotypes made any of the races “bad” or “lesser” than any others.
The John Mayer/White People Dancing To Electric Guitar sketch is a perfect example of what I mean. He poked fun at the “stereotypical” musical tastes of three different races–including his own–without insinuating that any one race’s preferences were somehow worse than any one other’s. It was brilliant.
DP
Just kind of figured, Fujita, thanks for that info. Discrimination, stereotyping, racism, is never going away. Wish it would, but lets be realistic. I 100% agree that there will always be differing opinions on topics like this due completely to the fact that everyone is different. Job sites, where you’re raised, parents, and a million other things make people who they are. However, it is my humble opinion that the media makes these situations worse by blowing them up and drawing a line in the sand, when I think most people could agree: funny? yes no maybe, stupid? pretty much. Which I think would have been everyone’s opinion after reading the quote yesterday. Can we have an article about how many handstand pushups Santana did yesterday?
You are right, Jack. I should have said “if” the tweet in question. If you look back at my previous post, you will see that I acknowledge that there is some ambiguity. That said, intentionally using ambiguous statements that hint at bias/rumors is really weak. It allows someone to say everything and nothing without being held accountable. If LB meant to talk about foot-in-mouth or performance-enhancing drugs, then he could have said it.
The whole “only God knows” trick is a ridiculous excuse that is selectively applied to situations where you disagree with someone. If you truly believed that, then you would not be able to have an opinion about anything. Do “999 of 1000 people” think that “ambiguous” statements/jokes are funny? Only “God” knows. Do jokes about racial stereotypes really cause damage? Only the “Holy Trinity” knows. It is an excuse that you use to make yourself look clean and non-judgmental. Because if you really believed that, then you wouldn’t be arguing one side or the other. By definition, you wouldn’t have an opinion. Only “God” knows, right?
My point is still a valid one and I think it speaks to your discussion with tribefan. Comedians play on social stereotypes. Individuals who make statements that use the word gay to describe negative people or situations are doing something totally different. And making “ambiguous statements” are doing the same thing.
Okay, I see.
“it’s the inference that LCB is saying that Braylon is saying stupid things because he’s gay ”
Based on your interpretation, I completely understand your point. I read it as “He’s an idiot. He also likes chewing gum.”
Seriously though, stupid comment, I just thought he was stating two unrelated facts. We’re good, unless tribefan or human wanted more while I was typing this. It’s tough responding to three.
Jack, I do agree that the media (and I must admit that, yes, we are part of that here at WFNY) can tend to over-dramatize things. And, as I said above, we’re not trying to sensationalize this particular issue. It is, however, an interesting discussion.
And, maybe I’m just being naive, but why should we have to be “realistic”? (Deep down I am, but hear me out here…) Accepting that descrimination and racism simply *are* and are thus never going to go away isn’t enough. By doing so, you’re essentially enabling it and allowing it to continue. If people were willing to stand up more and say that it’s not cool and acceptable, we wouldn’t have to just “be realistic” and accept it.
Also, great piece on YouTube about Fujita…
Jack
No, it still goes back to his intent. I believe his intent was to Bash BE, and he chose to do so by attacking his sexuality. In no way would it be funny.
And I dont know how you can argue his intent wasnt to Bash BE. If anything, you could argue he meant poop, in which case his intent is still to bash BE, but would be less offensive, and then I agree we made a bigger deal of this then needed.
Others must have been typing same time…looks like we are on same page now
This uproar is retarded.
Can’t believe nobody pulled that one in the first 89 comments.
DP, being realistic about the way the world is does not mean accepting it personally. I can honestly say, with a baby due any day now, I will try and instill in her morals, that hopefully she takes to and passes down to her kids, thereby changing the world a handful of people at a time. I can also say, that being that shes going to be 50% Japanese, 25% Anglo whatever, and 25% Mexican, she’s going to have to stand up for herself and deal with things I didn’t have to. Realistic, yes. Accepting it, absolutely not.
@Denny. I totally agree with you. Good call.
@Ben
Was I getting “ludicrously, insanely, and redundantly indignant over the ‘LBJ apology’ & corresponding article?” Only “God” knows.
I don’t understand what you are trying to say. First and foremost, I am making comments about the issue. I did not come on here and say that everyone who disagrees with my opinion about a basketball player is an immature moron. You can passionately and intelligently debate an issue without declaring that everyone who disagrees is a moron. Second, my opinion about LBJ does not negatively affect people in the real world. What we are debating here is people using the word gay in a derogatory manner. That does have a direct, negative impact on people in the real world. I won’t tell people how to feel about a basketball player, but I will speak up if I feel that people are perpetuating stereotypes that truly hurt people.
…maybe you offended him… 🙁
Alex went there, didn’t he? Are there any other words that are commonly used to describe both a situation (or person) and a demographic (not sure if thats the right word) type? I couldn’t think of any.
@DP – I like your comment about being “realistic.” It mirrors my thoughts exactly.
Well, that should about do it for the gay community. LET’S TALK ABOUT THEM MEXICANS!!!!!
DP:
I think we can agree that the potential consequences, or lack thereof, of an insensitive comment do not make the comment any more or less wrong. an insensitive comment is an insensitive comment regardless (objective). but yes, the same insensitive comment made in one setting can be totally differently interpreted from that same insensitive comment made in a different setting (subjective). this is not LCB specific – but if someone called me a derogatory name on the street or on twitter (or implied it) i would typically pass it off as that person being an idiot and ignore it. it would bother me that the person is ignorant, but you move on. that same comment – although no less or more insensitive / wrong – said to me in a work setting could be extremely insulting to me. that does not make it less wrong to say a derogatory comment to someone on the street – its just saying that the words by the speaker (objective) or interpretation of the receiving person (subjective) is influenced by the setting, tone, environment, media, etc.
the setting does not make insensitive comments more or less wrong, but it certainly can influence the “target” on being more or less uncomfortable. someone else in my exact scenario might be totally insulted on the street, or much less affected at work. but again, the words themselves are inexcusable.
hope that makes sense.
And Jack, that’s what I’m talking about. In that regard, we’re sympatico.