Your Top 10 Indians Prospects for the 2011 MLB Season
November 19, 2010WFNY Podcast: Can the Browns Win Their Next Four?
November 19, 2010Before we get into the topic for the day, let me first say that I was as angry as the next Cleveland fan to see Sabathia, Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez traded away for pennies on the dollar. I can’t stand that the only Free Agents the Tribe signs are guys who have to prove themselves somewhere before a contender will give them a shot. I hated Paul Dolan’s statement the other day. Made me sick. Are we on the same page here? Good.
Here’s what I just can’t understand- why in the world is the lynch mob forming over the Snow Days event at the ballpark? It is especially bad on the radio (and internet radio). What good exactly is going to come from attacking this family event? Do you think the Indians are counting on Snow Days to make millions of dollars so they can cover salaries next season? It just doesn’t make sense to try and bring down something that potentially could mean more money and jobs to the area.
To that end I called the Indians and found out some things about the event. And no, I’m not getting free tickets for my family, nor am I some kind of PR department for the Indians.
They were a bit surprised by my request I think, and didn’t have exact information available for all the questions, but here is what I found out.
While they have brought back some employees that work for them during the season, they have also hired new employees from the area, and in fact are still hiring. (If interested look here on Indians.com) Not only will they be giving 25-50 employees (per shift) a job, but there are also the local companies like Waco Scaffolding that were hired to help with the construction. There were electricians, decorators, contractors and signage vendors that got work from this project. All of these were Cleveland area men and women. Working. Paid to do a job.
I asked them about the financial investment involved. They were not at liberty to say exactly how much the investment was to bring this project to life, but they (Robert Campbell and Curtis Danburg) did tell me that this has been in the works for a few years now. It is a project that they are committed to, and do not expect to turn a profit in the first year due to the design and start up cost. They are hoping to create a holiday tradition downtown.
Before I could even ask about the intention behind Snow Days, I was told that the organization thought they “needed to take advantage of the facility for more than just baseball season.” Now, we all know that civic responsibility is great, but the bottom line on the project will be money. Danburg did go on to say that creating additional revenue streams are of course part of that initiative.
The big question, and of course I asked it- how is this program tied into the overall budget for the Indians. As expected, I was told that the project was under the “Indians umbrella, but not tied to the day to day operations of the team.” Meaning the player’s salary budget is not directly effected by how many hot chocolates you buy this winter.
Now, I can hear you already. Same company, same owner, same budget. But ask yourself seriously, do you think building an ice rink for a month or so is really going to have any bearing what-so-ever on signing Shin Soo Choo to a long term deal? Let me answer that for you- no it isn’t.
And you, the one with the pitchfork and the megaphone- stop yelling and screaming that nobody should buy a single ticket to anything until the Dolans sell the team. You can’t think that is really going to work right? You are really going to organize all the fans to agree not to buy tickets or hats or Snow Days tickets? You really think that the message hasn’t already gotten to Larry Dolan that the fans are unhappy? You don’t think the worst attendance in the majors last season got his attention?
What makes you so sure that a new owner would keep the team here? Worst attendance in the majors, maybe they should move! Or what makes you think that MLB wouldn’t consider the Indians for contraction? History? Tradition? Those are great and all, but when talk of contraction comes around what franchises do they start with? Oh right, those with lousy attendance.
And calling for people to stay away from the Snow Days event? Boy that would sure show the Indians huh? No, it would force them to lay off half those workers they just hired. Is bringing families downtown for something really that bad of an idea? Maybe they’ll stay and eat dinner at one of the restaurants. Maybe they’ll do some shopping downtown. Who knows, this might actually help the economy. But why would we want to do that?
All I know is that I’m taking my little girl to the ballpark to ride down the slide, and maybe go ice skating. We’ll share some hot chocolate to warm up, and then the family is going to a Cavs game.
Boy, I’m a terrible fan aren’t I?
—
I did ask about concerns for the field, and was assured that they are in fact taking steps to protect the field. I was told about some kind of plastic staging, but got lost during the explanation. Even if the worst came to pass and the field was beyond repair for some reason, they intentionally cut the program immediately following New Years so that they would have time to get the field ready to go for the season. Because I knew you’d ask.
40 Comments
People are seriously angry about this?
If I lived closer to Cleveland, I would take the kids down to check out “Snow Days”. I really don’t understand the opposition to something that utilizes an empty facility, brings people downtown, and creates jobs.
Yeah, I don’t understand why people would be mad about this. Either go or don’t. But it’s nice to get people working and something different for the family for a change. Cleveland doesn’t exactly get many ‘new’ things showing up for families to do.
I for one agree with Rick. Snow Days does nothing but good. It’s unique. IT BRINGS JOBS. Why anybody would have any type of negative comment about this project is way beyond me. I’d go for sure if I didn’t live in sunny and still warmish Arizona. I know my family that still lives in Cleveland is making plans to make a day of it though.
I guess this was the problem I had with this in a nut shell:
extra pimpage of existing resources to continue to line the pockets of the people who refuse to spend a dime when needed to support the team we so loyally follow.
I have no problem with the event itself, it’s great if it creates more jobs and something fun for the kiddies. Just don’t tell me I can’t poo poo a ploy for more money by people who refuse to spend it on us the fans (essentially).
“All I know is that Iâm taking my little girl to the ballpark to ride down the slide, and maybe go ice skating. Weâll share some hot chocolate to warm up, and then the family is going to a Cavs game”
FREE OF CHARGE, YOU ARE JUST A DOLAN MINION SPREADING PROPAGANDA!!!
I went to the Dave Matthews concert in Columbus at Huntington Park this summer and I think they put down the same plastic puzzle piece floor over the outfield (The stage was in center field). The next time I went to a game I didn’t see any lasting effects of the thousands of people and sound equipment so I wouldn’t worry there.
Does it make me a bad fan if I venture up to the Jake for Snow Days (to please the wife of course), but never considered making the trip for a baseball game this summer? haha
Wow. As a born and bred Clevelander no longer in the area, I’m kind of shocked this thing is an issue. When I first read about the idea I thought it sounded pretty neat. It gets people downtown (always a good thing), finds a use for a stadium that sits idle 260 days a year, and is fun for families. I guess I forgot how angry your average Clevelander can be.
So the main argument against it is Dolan is cheap and evil? And the secondary argument is we’re Clevelanders and thus immune to fun so we must be bitter about everything?
@7 – absolutely not, after all it’s about entertainment and the games haven’t been that in quite a while. :/
The situation with the Indians is ugly. I was angered at the idea at first simply because I see it as another cheap as move by Dolan. You are right though it can’t be a bad thing for the downtown area. The Indians with special give away nights and various other promotions throughout the season and now this are so not about baseball. There is so much anger towards the organization right now. We are being held hostage with minimal chance to win.
@10 – Which has been the MO for the Browns for, what, nine out of the last eleven seasons yet they get a pass.
I understand the frustration with ownership, but don’t see what they can really do about it. Being something of a stats guy, I’ve sat down and crunched the numbers comparing wins, attendance, and salary season by season for the Indians. What they show is that spending doesn’t create wins nor does it ensure people in the seats. In fact, when the Dolans have spent money, it usually resulted in fewer people at the park.
So if I’m the owner, what should I do? Not trade CC even though I know there’s no chance to resign him? (Imagine the pitchfork mob if they had done that – they let CC go and we got nothing for him!) Keep wasting millions on Victor even though people will still complain about how bad the Indians are while avoiding the games?
I just don’t get it. Anyone not with their head in the sand understands the limitations of small market teams and the way they need to manage their organization, yet when the Dolans follow that script to the letter, they get bashed for it.
Definitely taking the kids to this, they have been really excited about it. I think it is a great idea.
Don’t think anyone is expressing anger as much as derision. Derision that the owner of our MLB team is so over his head– so stuck in the “Can’t front money to pay good players/falling attendance-shrinking revenue/less money to pay players/less attendance- less revenue” death spiral– that he reverts to minor league style promotions.
I don’t see pitchforks. I hear snorts.
now if they’d only combine this with 10 cent beers, they might be onto something
Well written, Rick.
@ NJ – “In fact, when the Dolans have spent money, it usually resulted in fewer people at the park.”
Are you saying guys like Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa aren’t huge reasons to go to the ballpark? What fickle fans we are.
i hated those trades because of the little value we got in return. it was a bad business move to let all the other organizations know they can offer little in return because we have to trade them a year and a half early…
this idea on the other-hand seems like a good business move which should help downtown and has very little downside…
Yeah, I’m definitely going to make the trip up for this. Nice write-up Rick. I’d imagine that 90% of the money that I spend ends up in the pockets of people that I’d probably despise. Is that a reason to not buy things or spend a fun night out with the family? Lighten up.
@16 – So your point seems to be you want smart spending rather than spending for spending sake? I agree. I say standing pat in ’10 and ’11 are smart spending moves. So why be angry at the Dolans?
@NJ – “So why be angry at the Dolans?”
The Dolans employ guys like Shapiro who’s talent evaluation has been so far below average it’s almost laughable. Look, I know you can’t blame the Dolans for everything, just like you couldn’t blame Randy Lerner for everything. BUT, at the end of they day they sign off on the guys running our FO, and those guys who continue to be employed for handsome salaries are not making the correct moves.
Smart spending yes, I couldn’t agree more. But put that money in the hands of some people who are going to make better informed decisions.
Yeah, I never know how to feel about Shapiro. Monday he’s making the Colon trade, by Wednesday he’s signing Dellucci to a $11M dollar deal, and on Friday he’s trading for Choo while inking Kerry Wood.
I just don’t get the amount of hate directed at Dolan. Every fan has problems with management, but this is like a blood feud.
It’s the snowball effect. One person calls him cheap and they all call him cheap, it’s more “in” than eating at Melt right now. This team being “small market” now has such a small, itsy bitsy, teeny weeny margin for error they can’t continue on with decision makers that have proven ineffective. It’s all about accountability for this organization and posting 90+ losing seasons coupled with promoting your FO guys that haven’t done anything for you and flat out saying you’re not going to spend any money is not going to win you any friends. The Dolans being cheap is only a small part of a much grander puzzle but it’s the easiest cop out.
/steps off soapbox
I really can’t believe this is an issue. I saw this and thought this was one of the coolest ideas ever.
And can you really blame the owners for trying to make a profit from what would be an empty stadium. If you had a business that shut down from Oct to April you’d try to extend the operation as much as possible to make some money.
sorry meant to say 90+ LOSS seasons…not losing seasons haha
All valid points. I just don’t see it like that.
I feel Shapiro has been above average considering all our organizational limitations. Yes, he’s missed a lot, but that’s the nature of baseball. Yes, he has made deals I find completely insane, but he’s also weaved garbage into gold.
We’re in the middle of a very uncomfortable three year span of rebuilding. It’s the nature of the beast. I will say: if, when ’12 and ’13 roll around, Dolan still continues to keep the purse strings tight then I’ll be there with my torch and pickfork too.
of course people are going to complain about this. thats what true clevelanders do – complain! lately, there hasnt been enough to complain about. the browns are improving, the medical mart/casino projects are moving along, hotels are being built in anticipation, the cavs are doing better than most expected (for now), the weather has been unseasonably sunny and warm. so lets complain about those dirty rotten tribe owners trying to make another extra buck or two!
HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE FUN AT THE JAKE! THAT IS JUST WRONG!
DON’T BRING YOUR KIDS THERE OR THE DOLAN’S WILL TRADE THEM AWAY TO THE YANKEES!
We’ll be in town for Thanksgiving week, and we’ll definitely be spending money there (and who knows, maybe even stick around for some downtown shopping rather than stay out at South Park or Summit…).
The people who are complaining are probably the same people who think it’s a great idea to attack out of town visitors (even children) who are wearing the opposing team’s gear.
The manufacturing jobs are gone, and many are never coming back. Some people need to wake up, and be more welcoming to things that bring money into the region.
Yes, you are indeed correct.
Because I disagree with the premise of giving more money to an organization that doesn’t seem very committed to the fans I am a cynical, child hating, jerk. Before you make any further assumptions I also club baby seals on the weekends for sport, and I also leave all the lights on in my house because I hate the environment. There I said it.
In 2007 the Indians tied with Boston for the best record in baseball, and attendance still SUCKED!!! They needed a late season push in ticket sales just to crack the top 10 in the American League.
In 2005 they won 93 games and finished 11th in attendance. Seriously people explain it to me, wtf is ownership supposed to do in this situation? Should we go out and spend 200 million to get Cliff Lee back? Cliff Lee really sells tickets, right? Ownership should spend large and have a 200 million dollar payroll on a team that draws 20,000 a game. Yeah, that’ll work.
People always complain and say Dolan needs to sell the team. Really? So if a new owner comes in the Indians will go back to drawing 40,000 + for every home game and we can be big spenders like the Sox and the Yankees? Yeah a World Series contender barely got this town excited about baseball in 2007, but according to the experts a change in ownership will solve everything.
We can bitch and complain about the Dolans all we want. The bottom line here is that Clevelands charade as a baseball town ENDED the moment this team fell out of contention in 2002. We all bitch about Larry Dolan and declare that we wont support his lousy product, yet the Browns are still sold out every Sunday and people still bleed orange and brown? Is that because Randy Learner is some great owner who is committed to spending money and winning? No, its because Cleveland is a FOOTBALL town.Everything else is a distant second.
In a few years when the Cavs are back to being bottom feeders and the Q is filled with #6 Miami Heat jerseys, everyone will be bitching for Gilbert to sell the Cavs, and the Clowns will still be packing 70,000 drunks into the stadium for every home game.
Im not saying that I like or agree with every decision made by the Indians front office. Shapiro has made his share of good and bad moves, like all GMs do. But seriously, what are the Indians supposed to do besides play the moneyball card? Somebody give me one logical solution. Do you really think that deficit spending to keep guys like Sabathia and Cliff Lee is a wise move?
@30: Maybe you’re too young to remember or something but the Tribe fielded a winning product in the 90s, and had excellent attendance. To be quite honest fans just don’t want to get attached because they know the players are not going to be kept around, even during flash-in-the-pan years like ’05-’07 the prevailing wisdom was that the players would be traded off if they were good, so why attend the game?
If the Dolans want good attendance they have to consistently field a good team. Of course, they say that in order to do that, they need better attendance. It’s a real chicken and the egg scenario.
@Stin
Your analysis of the Indians FO is faulty in much the same ways that most people’s player evaulation is – too emotional. You choose to highlight the biggest, nastiest mistakes made and allow it to cloud your vision when looking at anything else, instead of taking the time to look at the numbers and include all decisions that have been made.
Even the best talent evaluators are wrong sometimes.
Overall, Shapiro’s FO has shown an exceptional ability to identify talent in opponents minor league systems, and have made changes in areas that have shown they are not productive (amateur scouting).
@30 – Well said, Ghost. I’m in 100% agreement.
@31 – But the 90’s didn’t have the payroll disparity we see now.
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx
Play around with this to see what our (and Yankee) payrolls in the 90’s were and compare that to today.
Yeah Chris you got me, Im 9 years old and had no idea the Indians were good in the 90s.
The 90’s were a complete and total aberration. That will NEVER happen again. It was the perfect storm of a new ballpark, a suddenly contending team, the Browns leaving town and the Fratello lead Cavs (although competitive) being the most painfully boring team in the NBA.
No, in 2005-2007 people didnt know that the good players would be traded off. People just didnt care as much as they did 10 years earlier. The novelty had worn off. The Browns had been back for several years, suddenly the Cavs had LeBron James, the Indians just werent that exciting anymore. Not to the people of Cleveland anyway. You say winning is the key? Well that 2007 Indians team, from top to bottom, was as good as any other Tribe team weve seen in the past 50 years. And attendance stunk all the way up until August when people suddenly woke up and realized “Hey wait a minute, the Tribe is pretty good this year, maybe Ill go to a game”.
Dolans detractors always point to 455, well 455 will never happen again regardless of who owns the team. Meanwhile, the Browns with their 62-123 record since 99 are still sold out every week. You say people didnt go see the Tribe in 2005-2007 because they “knew” the good players would never stick around. Well, people know to expect the worst with the Browns, they know the Browns are going to SUCK and yet they still come out in droves to support their team. Explain that.
Cleveland is not a baseball town, period. It pretended to be a baseball town for a few years after the Browns left, but that charade ended in 2002. This is a football town, between the Cavs and the Indians, whichever team is doing better at the time, that team is a distant second to the Clowns and their glorious .335 winning percentage since 1999. Here we go Brownies, here we go! Woof Woof! 70,000 people show up for every Browns home game. Yet Larry Dolan is the devil and people wont even take their kids to a family event at the Jake because Dolan is such a terrible person and owner. Since the owner makes all the difference, I guess they feel that Randy Lerner is really committed to winning and giving the loyal fans the best dog gone team he possibly can, right?
@Chris – you are comparing the 90’s situation? Maybe you are too young to remember some important points đ
1. Browns left town.
2. Excitement over new ballpark.
3. Excitement over young competitive team.
4. 1st competitive team in 38 years.
5. New division alignment meant playoffs more accessible (even more hope added)
6. Cleveland Cavaliers Price/Nance/Daugherty years just ended. 7. After initial dropoff, they were competitive but only if you liked gauging your eyes out with the Fratello-style bleed the 24 shot clock.
8. Don’t forget those ‘must have been designed by the blind owner’ uniforms.
The 90’s Indians had a perfect storm. Jacobs was smart enough to see that and sell high. Don’t expect that perfect storm to return (and let’s hope it doesn’t. I enjoy cheering for the Browns too).
@34 – glad to see you, Jerome Harrison, are still posting on Cleveland message boards. you seem a little bitter about the trade though. The Eagles are a good team, man. Let it go and enjoy the ride đ
@36
LOL I dont know what youre talking about there. But screw the Eagles and Michael Vick!
You failed to mention the point that I think most fans are angry about…the price of this Snow Days thing. We’re already angry about having cheap owners. Now those cheap owners are charging outrageous prices to get into the ballpark for a winter event. Yes, it’s great to have stuff to do downtown in winter. Yes, it’s great jobs are created. But charging $5 to get in (after paying for parking) just to have ACCESS to food I have to pay for, is a bit absurd. Especially considering that hot chocolate will be around $6 and ice skating will be about $20. So, taking a family of 4 to this event will easily top the $150 mark. I find it odd that it wasn’t mentioned in this article…
thetruth – taking a family of four will cost you $100, for access to both skating and sledding, and a food/beverage credit. Not that this is cheap, but its noticeably less than the number you took some serious rounding up to get to. If fans are angry about the price, then they won’t go, and Snow Days will get cancelled. Dolan shouldn’t have to subsidize your entertainment. It’s not cheap to do something like this at the park. I’m not sure why people think Dolan should be just handing out passes.
Charles, I’m assuming you are Charles Dolan??? I’m not asking you to ‘subsidize’ my entertainment, but if you don’t make it affordable, don’t expect people to show up. Especailly knowing that this entire city (minus ‘Charles’) hates you.