May 24, 2013

WFNY Roundtable: Playing to WIN the Game

November 15, 2010 by 33 Comments

As usual, the WFNY crew had a lot to say about the game. Much of it centered on going for the win vs. going for the tie. Here’s a little of what the gang was thinking-

Rick- Let’s put this out there right away- if McCoy had thrown that first down pass just a tad lower, we aren’t having this conversation. The Browns would have had the ball on about the 17 yard line with a fresh set of downs and a little more than a minute left to play. I don’t know that they would have been able to push the ball into field goal range in that situation or not, but they certainly could have opened things up a bit more than they did on the goal-line. That first down pass was a very safe one. And it just fell short of working. I would have rather seen the team stay aggressive and try to get the first down- try to win the game than playing for the tie. At least in this situation. On the road, backed up on your own goal-line may have been a different story, but we were talking about a friendly crowd at your back.

Craig- I am curious to know the WFNY reaction. I won’t go as far as to say that Mangini SHOULD have gone for two after the Browns scored the touchdown. I would never do that. But imagine for a second that he went for it and the Browns lost by 1. Would you guys have supported the decision even in defeat? I would have stood by that one even if they had lost. A nice measured risk.

Scott- It didn’t even cross my mind until after the PAT. I can’t fault Mangini for not going for it, but I wouldn’t have faulted him at all had they gone for it and missed.

DP- My buddy and I were discussing it. Like, if you have a ST trick play, break it out for the win there. Anyone remember the 1999 Browns/Bengals game in Cleveland with the Gardocki flip to Dawson as a fake PAT/FG? Like, if you have something like that, bring it out. I don’t know that you just line up and go for it, though. But that’s just me.

Andrew- You could make an argument, too, that attempting to go for 2 would mean that Mangini didn’t have confidence in the Browns to stop the Jets or put together another drive in OT. I think Mangini just kicking the PAT showed nothing but ultimate confidence in his team. And it should have paid off for him. The Browns stopped the Jets, and if Stuckey doesn’t fumble, Phil Dawson is going to get to attempt a kick to win the game. It was one hell of a game by the Browns, and painfully close.

Craig- I thought throwing on first down was brave. They missed on it, but they had a really good chance to still tie it with the way Hillis had been running the ball all game. I think throwing it on first down is a measured risk because if you complete it, you are up around your own 35 or 40, if I remember correctly how far Watson got out there. Even in not completing it, thinking has to be that you injected it into the minds of your opponent and it should soften up the running lanes for Hillis on second down. The Jets stepped up and blew up the second down running play. I just don’t see where second guessing your team for trying to buck the odds and win from their own part of the field in overtime is sensible.

Rick- Fundamentally, there was no reason not to go for the win. A tie does nothing there. You can talk about moral victories if you want, but they had already proven they can hang with the best teams in the league by getting to OT there. (That and the last 2 wins.)

DP- That first down pass to Watson was really, really close. I give McCoy props for giving Watson a chance, but putting it pretty much where it was either going to be a completion or nothing. I think they gave it one shot to try and move the ball and win the game, but once that was incomplete they HAD to try to run the clock. And honestly, if we want to talk about win vs. tie, if Elam makes the pick at the 3, the Browns aren’t down 7 on that last drive; they’re down 4. Of course, they have to go 35 more yards to score, but that made a big difference.

Andrew- The ONLY decision I was disappointed with was when we punted on 4th and 3 with 3 minutes left in OT. It seemed unlikely the Browns would get the ball back in any kind of position to score from, so I would have just gone for it there. If you don’t get it, oh well, you might lose, but at least you left everything on the field. Again, I was ecstatic when they let McCoy throw on 1st down when they did get the ball back. A tie was just as bad as a loss in my eyes, so rather than playing for a tie at best, they tried to let McCoy make a play to give the Browns a chance to put together a winning drive. And it was damn close, too. If that ball is just a little lower and Watson brings it in, I have a feeling the narrative would be much different today.

Rick- I agree Rock, I thought for sure that was going to be 4 down territory there.

TD- You guys are crazy…we were at our own 44. If you go and don’t get it, Mangini is crucified today. That is a real roll of the dice. Id much rather tie than lose, especially how I feel today.

DP- And, not to divert the discussion and/or beat the “we have no WRs!” dead horse, but on that McCoy roll-out throw to MoMass down the right side on third down… if we had a WR with ANY kind of separation speed, that’s a freaking touchdown. I really, really, REALLY hope one of the (I perceive) three big-time WRs that will most likely be in the first round are there wherever we pick: AJ Green, Alshon Jeffery, Julio Jones. Somebody that can stretch the field and catch the ball. Please!

TD- Look at how good Dez Bryant has been the last few weeks. Give me someone like that. I agree. This loss may be the difference between getting AJ Green or not. Underrated aspect of the loss.

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  • Stinkfist

    Going for 2 near the end of regulation… meh, putting that at a 50-50 chance of winning, give me overtime. Especially since Hillis hadn’t done a whole lot in the second half.
    I do not think we should have gone on 4th and 3 on our own 44. That puts the Jets a first down out of (a normal kicker’s) field goal range. Granted, Folk sucks
    Before our last drive in OT, I was hoping they would try to win. Then they did, and I was disappointed, mainly that it didnt work, but I am still glad they tried. A quick out-route from a slot receiver or a tight end may have been a bit less risky though.
    This game was another validation of the past few weeks, and I am really excited for the rest of the season

  • Mike

    Please, please, please don’t encourage the Browns to draft a wide receiver in the first round.

  • stin4u

    @2 – Explain? This is going to be a draft somewhat robust with top end wideouts (Jon Baldwin, A.J. Green, Mike Floyd, etc). It seems like (considering the last draft) our talent evaluation has gotten much better. Why would we not want one of those guys?

  • Harv 21

    @2/Mike – part of me really agrees with that. Historically, so many first round receivers are underachieving busts, and we don’t have this tremendous need for a home run hitter as much as two guys who can get off the line and get open. Heckert can draft. Take one in the third round, another in the fifth, maybe grab a street free agent with physical upside and competitive attitude, shake well during training camp and see what rises to the surface. No happy talk or prima donna coddling to justify your high pick, meritocracy, baby!

  • JK

    I was hoping we’d go for 2 in regulation.

    The way I was looking at it, I give us a 60% chance to score from the 2 and the coin flip from OT was only 50-50. Of course, we did stop them and get the ball back after they won the toss.

    The only coaching issue I had the entire game was when we got down inside their 4 yard line and ran out of shotgun 3 plays in a row before kicking a FG.

  • JPS3

    Backed up inside your own 5 yardline with about 1:30 left in overtime against the Jets defense??? I think Mangini’s reasoning for giving the ball to Hillis on 2nd down was that he was going to try and get a McCoy a 3rd and manageable situation. But let’s be honest, no matter what was called, we weren’t going to get into field goal range against the Jets backed up inside our own 5 yard line. We were either going to tie or lose. And to me, a tie as as good as a loss when you are/were 3-5. I thought Mangini did everything right in this game to put his team in a position to win. I also don’t think you go for 2 at the end of regulation. Maybe you do it if we were on the road. But not at home and not when the Jets kicker is having a HORRIBLE day at field goals. Bottomline is, they made more plays than we did and (stuckey made the big mistake). In the words of Rob Ryan, we “blinked first”.

  • Harv 21

    @stin: WR draft evaluations are routinely way off the mark.

    Let me ask you this: we saw yesterday what happened to a well-coached defense that had no playmakers to seal the deal – to intercept a pass, chase down a scrambling QB. If you knew the Browns’ best chance of getting an impact player would be in the first round and the second round would give you a solid player, do you still go for the WR? Me, I go for impact on D, competence at WR.

  • http://serandez.blogspot.com Ezzie

    During that last drive in regulation, I turned to my host (a Jets fan) and asked what he thought about the Browns going for two if they score. He felt (like I did) that you can argue either side of that, but ultimately, at home with the crowd and the momentum and Folk’s already having missed twice and the wind all over, you probably take it to OT. The Jets are the best rushing D in the league, so the “Hillis can fall for two yards” argument is pretty moot, and the Browns don’t have a go-to WR for a play like that, so taking it to OT was the wise move, IMHO.

    As for the going for the win from your own 3 – agree with Rick who said a tie doesn’t do much for you. Watson was open on the play, so it wasn’t a bad call at all, and with two timeouts and having just had a drive like that, it’s not as if driving into FG range was so unlikely as to make it not worth the risk. As it is, the Jets needed a very good return and a nice catch and run – a tackle there and/or a shorter return and all the Jets have are a hail mary or two. And we all those never work… unless Gus Johnson is announcing.

    All in all, even those who don’t like the decisions at the end can’t say they were indefensible – they were very tough calls that could have gone either way, and I like that they said “we can beat them in OT” by going for the PAT and that they said let’s go for the win at the end.

    If there’s any holes this game showed, it is the lack of a good pass-rushing DE/LB and that a top WR would really help out. Also, having Hillis rush for 82 on 19 carries (4.3) against this D is a really great sign that this line and this RB are not just on a little run.

  • MrCleaveland

    I can’t fault Mangini for any of the decisions he made at the end of regulation and in overtime regarding win vs. tie. I think the coach played it as smart as he could have. Sanchez just made some gutty plays.

  • NJ

    We also didn’t have Cribbs. I’ve got to imagine that most of our better plays for a conversion involve him in some way.

    I think people hit the nail on the head with the Folk aspect. I’ll take overtime with the bad kicker.

  • stin4u

    @Harv – I see what you’re saying but lots of 1st round talent gets over valued no matter what position they are playing. We’ve seen this in drafts past obviously.

    I’m just saying there is no reason to completely rule out a receiver in the first round given the talent at that position in the upcoming draft. Ultimately it depends on where they pick and who is available. I trust this team in the draft room now, and I feel that WR and DE/pass rush are nearly equal importance. I think the defense has played well enough to this point to justify using that first pick for offense but again it really depends on who is available. I’d be on board with either but I don’t think you wait till the 3rd or later round to pick a guy up as mentioned above.

  • bobby

    Harv I agree with you completely that we need an impact defensive player in the top round. Heckert has a great draft history and I completely believe you can get #1 WRs in round 2 or later. Desean Jackson is a great #1 in Philly.

    As for going to 2, I think it would have been worth the chance. How often does a #1 WR make a play from the 2 in? We arent throwing a fade to anyone over Cramartie and Revis. But with all the momentum from that last drive coupled theres an argument to go for 2. I think the fact that Folk was weak all day makes it easier to go for 2 instead of OT.

    Lastly, I wanted them to go for the win, and after 1st down I feel like they should have continued to pass. Either way, 3rd and 5 or 3rd and 10 the Jets were putting their ears back and gunnin for McCoy on 3rd down. I feel like the run was trying to go for the tie rather than letting your leader (McCoy) try to get the win.

  • Eli

    Eric Wright is flipping horrible. He was running around the entire game like a chicken with his head cut off. He never was in the right position to make a play and almost seemed lackadaisical the entire game. And can someone tell me why we completely abandoned the blitz. Every big play they had in the 2nd half we were rushing 3 and Sanchez had all day or simply had to scramble away from slow 300 pound tackles!

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Andrew

    I don’t know as that 1st round WRs are as bad as they seem to be made out to be here. From this year’s class Dez Bryant is making a mark. Last year you had Darius Heyward-Bey, Michael Crabtree, Jeremy Maclin, Percy Harvin, Hakeem Nicks, and Kenny Britt. All of those guys look like legit NFL WRs. There were no 1st round WRs in 2008. In 2007, you had Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Dwayne Bowe, Robert Meachum, Craig Davis, and Anthony Gonzalez.

    Just looking back over the last handful of drafts, it seems like at least 50% of the WRs are legit NFL wide outs, and the ones who don’t pan out tend to be guys who were obvious reaches (like Ted Ginn, Troy Williamson, Matt Jones, etc)

  • Harv 21

    Andrew: don’t have time to dig up the ones that were proclaimed “can’t miss” and turned bust (I know Detroit had a few, Mike Williams, etc.), but would point out there’s a difference between using your first rounder to get an impact player and spending it on a merely “legit receiver” available later.

    The Browns need more impact players, who bend a game to their will, create mismatches. That’s how you consistently win: players who can enforce your will. Of the WR’s mentioned by you, Bryant may fit that category, maybe Nicks very soon. Who else? The rest may be competent, but I want impact players from the first round, not just “legit NFL level.” We need more guys opposing coordinators must account for. Right now, it’s just Hillis, Cribbs when healthy, Shaun Rogers when healthy/motivated. We need it on defense, right now.

  • Chris

    As far as the draft goes, pick up whichever is a more “sure-thing”, pick… pass rusher or wideout, so it depends on who is available. 2nd round pick up whichever position you didn’t in the first.

    We have a good D-line, but we need someone to seal the deal when we’re getting pressure on the quarterback. We missed WAY too many sacks today.

    On the subject of play calling, Hillis was averaging 4+ ypc on the day. There’s no reason to believe we wouldn’t have made the 2pt. I felt like the momentum was in our favor for the first time in the second half during that 2 minute drill, and I think we could have carried that one more play. Not having Cribbs may have limited the play calling for a 2pt conversion though, I don’t know what’s in our playbook and what’s not, so I don’t hold it against them that they went for the tie.

    I do think, though, that if you go for the win on first down, you go for the win on second and third as well. I would have kept firing to at least get out of the end zone.

    Final note: The Plain Dealer (Tony, mostly) keeps saying they don’t think Dawson will be resigned this year. After watching the kicking of the Jets, I now realize how nice it is no never doubt a field goal under 40 yards. We need to start a campaign to get Dawson re-signed.

  • bobby

    I mean Calvin is a premier WR in the league. Nicks is a becoming a star this year. Brit was having a terrific year also. I just would like to see a dominant D before a great O, and right now our D is on the verge but its not there and its not consistent. Ultimately though, I trust Heckert with the draft choices he makes.

  • sealedhuman

    I have seen no evidence to suggest that taking a receiver in Round 1 is any more or less risky than taking a DE/LB in Round 1, especially when projecting a DE into a 3-4 or even a 4-3 linebacker.

    @ Harv 21, I agree that we need more impact players, but to use your own argument against you: How many defensive players drafted that high are impact players that change the game? Aaron Curry, for example, has three career sacks. I know he is young and maybe sacks are not the best way to measure his success, but he was the most lauded pick in the 2009 draft. The “can’t miss” prospect. Is he a game-changer? My point is that it is really easy to fall into the assumption that drafting a defensive player high is safer than drafting a wide receiver. As I said, I’ve seen no compelling arguments to support this belief.

  • sealedhuman

    Regarding play calling, I’m with Chris: “I do think, though, that if you go for the win on first down, you go for the win on second and third as well. I would have kept firing to at least get out of the end zone.”

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    Is it talking out of both sides of our collective mouth to say we believe we can draft a competent WR in rounds 2-or-later all while blasting our two starting receivers who were both 2nd round picks?

    My point is this: yes, you can develop some great WRs in the later rounds, but it takes time. The Browns need a guy who can stretch the field NOW. There were two plays yesterday in which McCoy made a move to prolong a play with his feet, and had guys behind the defense (Watson, MoMass). Both times he had to provide “touch” passes because the guys behind the defense weren’t able to provide enough separation (in Watson’s defense, he’s of course a TE, but that doesn’t change my larger point). We need someone who knows how to play WR, can get open, and who can provide separation on plays like that–especially if that’s the perceived strength of our QB.

    DeSean Jackson is a great example of a gem in the second round, but to be fair he was taken behind the following WRs in the second round:
    Donnie Avery
    Devin Thomas
    Jordy Nelson
    James Hardy
    Eddie Royal
    Jerome Simpson

    How many of those guys have had the impact that Jackson has had?

    I’m not saying you pigeon-hole yourself into picking a WR. But, if one of those guys is on the board in our slot in the first round (assuming they all grade out there) and there isn’t someone who can provide MORE of an impact, you can’t just say, “We can get a good WR later” and pass, especially when it’s clearly the most glaring hole on one side of the ball.

    Just MHO.

  • 6thCity

    @Chris- I read that and can’t help but remember hearing that not resigning Dawson is some sort of money issue. We should certainly pay the man to keep him. I think Vickers is facing a similar fate next off season. These guys are veteran contributors. I hope we keep them happy and in Cleveland.

  • bobby

    DP- I mentioned Jackson because he was by far the easiest and a guy our current GM selected. You are right though, the evidence does seem to point to getting a #1 WR in round one is a much better bet then any LB on the D side of the ball. I just look at the age and lack of speed of our LBs and just am craving that intimidating face to the D that we lack. Ward can turn into our Troy possibly, but we are missing Harrison. (Sucks I have to make the Pit comparison, but they have “the” 34 D)

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    And, I don’t mean to imply that OLB isn’t a position of need. In other parts of this discussion (that weren’t pertinent to the topic) I mentioned OLB as a BIG position of need for this team as well as WR. I guess I see WR as a bigger need–again, just MHO–and if someone who’s a top talent as opposed to someone being projected to move outside (*cough*Wimbley*cough*) is there at our first round pick, we have to pull the trigger.

    [edit] I updated my “cough” to a more pertinent comparison. Can’t believe I didn’t think of it the first time around.

  • Harv 21

    I hear. Maybe I’m just not yet ready to watch more overentitled first round receiver peacocks who don’t even believe they should accountable for remembering the snap count or blocking somebody when they don’t have the ball. Gerard Warren’s sloth and ineffectiveness never bothered me as much “Team Braylon” or Winslow’s constant preening and complaints about coachs and lack of self-discipline on the field. Very few Larry Fitzgerald-attitudes with first round receivers. When first round defensive players underachieve, at least they tend to shut up.

  • stin4u

    @DP – I agree with you here. The offense is leaning far to heavily on the run game at this point. The Defense has held its own to this point, and the offense is struggling to create opportunities down field.

    Also, imagine the increased production of guys like Hillis/Hardesty (not allowing teams to stack the box for a run), Cribbs/MoMass (assuming whomever impact receiver we draft can pull double coverage). Allowing the other receivers/TE’s to work underneath a clear out on double coverage over the top creates tons of pass catching/running room. This team isn’t creating that right now, and it’s resulting in more check downs and/or extended broken scramble type plays.

  • Chris

    I alluded to this question in a different thread:

    Would you guys rather:

    1)an elite D and get our passing game to “a little under average”

    or

    2)a pretty good offence and a pretty good D?

    It seems to me that that is the choice we’re making in the draft. Which is not to say that we can’t address something with free agency, which I hope we can.

  • MattyFos

    @Chris

    I would rather have an elite D with an “Okay” offense.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com DP

    It’s a valid argument. I don’t think we need a Larry Fitzgerald attitude; that’s pretty much the other extreme compared to Braylon, who is the reason I believe most of you here are gun-shy about first round receivers.

    Most first-round picks are risk/reward in terms of attitude. I would argue that a player can be the biggest choir boy all while holding out for $50 million before coming to camp; that’s about as “me-first” as it gets. My hope is that some kind of CBA that eliminates that from the equation is in place before this next draft, and we get guys that have to play for their big pay-day. Even further than that, my hope is that this team plays well enough down the stretch that we won’t be picking in the top 10 again, which tends to lighten the “I’m the best player in the world!” attitude of draft picks coming in. Or, at least that’s what I’m telling myself.

    Sooner or later we have to believe that all of the work Mangini and company have done building the “team first” attitude and atmosphere surrounding this club can hold guys to account. If Colt McCoy as a rookie can command the huddle on this team, McCoy as the second-year starter and an offense that has (hopefully!) tasted some success can whip a young guy into shape who has mouth problems.

  • stin4u

    @Chris – I don’t think it’s out of the question to fill out both sides of the ball with an impact player in the first two rounds. The luxury here is that it seems to be a deep class for both WR and DE (as far as guys who have had good college careers and appear to be good nfl prospects). I’d rather have a receiver with the first pick but if an elite pass rusher like Adrian Clayborn falls to you how do you not make that pick?

    Assuming the Browns are in position to get a guy they consider an elite receiver in the first round it’s very possible someone like Cam Heyward could be hanging around at the beginning of the second round considering the other guys entering this draft. From there they could spend additional picks on LB, CB, FS etc.

    To me they really only need to spend one pick on the offensive side, the rest can be used for defense.

  • MattyFos

    A little add on-

    I think we should address the WR corp in the first round, unless a guy like Michael Floyd is looking to fall to the second. But I think we need better linebackers across the board. I would like to add corner depth and maybe get a ball hawking safety…. But in order to get what I’d want, we’d need either 5 first round picks next year or wait another 5 years and by then Ward/Haden/Rubin would be playing somewhere else and Shaun Rogers would have retired.. lol

  • hansolo1

    Trying not to over-Monday morning QB, and not to criticize the coaching in this game at all, but re-looking at the box score and seeing time of possesion, first downs and total yardage look something like 47mins to 27mins, 28 to 19, and 456 to 300ish, respectively, all in favor of the Jets, I would not have criticized the call for a 2 pt conversion at the end of regulation, make or miss. Especially with the momentum factor we had going at the time. We really were not outplaying the Jets on this day, and that was a good opportunity to ‘steal’ the win, as opposed to the beatdowns we put on N.O. and N.E.

    Since next year’s needs is also a topic on this thread, my two pennies: I think an impact WR and an impact defensive player at whatever position (leaning LB) are equally important, whether through draft or FA. I see no reason why both couldn’t be addressed. I still believe a top flight WR would make the offense infinitively better by taking heat off of Hillis and making things easier for a young and up-and-coming QB.

  • Stinkfist

    I could see us being in the 10-15 range of picks. I say trade down to 20ish with someone who wants one of the receivers, then draft Ryan Kerrigan for our D-End need.

    /Reminding myself we have 7 games left before we need to talk about the draft

  • MattyFos

    Stink- I’m looking forward to the next draft after I’m done assessing our current draft class on Sunday evening on day 2 (day 3 from now on) of the draft.

    lol