May 22, 2013

Browns Notes – Mangini Moratorium, O-Line Woes and How Many Players Away?

December 20, 2010 by 29 Comments

As you know from yesterday, I will not be discussing Mangini’s future for another two games.  That doesn’t mean I won’t talk about the season that is still going on.  And just to clear a couple things up because some people took umbrage with my Mangini Moratorium.  Let me just explain why it doesn’t make any sense to engage in this conversation now.  It is premature.  That isn’t to say that Mangini doesn’t deserve to be fired.  Someone can certainly make that case after the last two weeks.

The problem is that by burying Mangini now, you might as well write off talking about the last two games of this season.  They are important divisional games.  The culture of this team better be to compete hardest in divisional contests even when there is no longer anything meaningful on the line.  Anyone who is talking about something that won’t take place until after the season is over (like potentially firing a coaching staff) is, in my mind, rendering the last two contests meaningless.  I refuse to call any matchups against Baltimore and Pittsburgh meaningless.  This isn’t to say the Mangini haters are necessarily wrong or right.  Just save it for two more weeks after you see the complete portfolio of work.  Make sense?  Maybe I am wrong.  I am sure you will tell me.

As for what we saw yesterday…

Is there any phase of the Browns team more frustrating than the Browns’ offensive line?  Even the pieces and parts that we thought we could just take for granted seem to be failing.  Joe Thomas probably shudders as he goes to sleep with the words “high ankle sprain” reverberating in his head.  I won’t even bother talking about John St. Clair anymore.  It isn’t worth the breath.

Through three quarterbacks now, it seems that the Browns have a serious tell at the line of scrimmage regarding snap counts.  I don’t know if it is something the quarterbacks are doing, or if it is something inherent in Alex Mack’s motion, but the Browns sure appear to get jumped by opposing defensive lines a lot.  The earliest I can remember this being a problem is all the way back in week five when John Abraham was torturing Joe Thomas.  Either nobody else has realized it, or it is a figment of my imagination.

I guess you can never have enough linemen period.  The Browns’ defensive line was also massively underwhelming yesterday in Cincinnati.  The Browns’ inability to stop the run yesterday was most infuriating because they didn’t force Carson Palmer to beat them without T.O.  Palmer was throwing well enough all game that it might not have mattered, but you can’t allow Cedric Benson to dominate the clock.  The time of possession battle was a 38-22 beat-down by the way.

I love Josh Cribbs and he has ridiculous amounts of heart, but he shouldn’t be playing right now.  He isn’t healthy and explosive.  He isn’t helping the team right now as hard as he is trying.  As Rick pointed out yesterday, Cribbs must have run into his own blockers at least three separate times.  And can everyone please stop calling for the Wildcat with Cribbs still banged up?  I know it is fun to hate Brian Daboll, but his not calling the Wildcat is not ammunition right now.  Cribbs is too banged up to make a difference doing it.  As I said, he is probably too banged up to play at all.  Let Jordan Norwood return kicks.  They signed him off the practice squad for something, right?

Finally, yesterday on Twitter, I said that the Browns are probably four players away from competing and six away from being considered playoff contenders.  Some agreed with me, and some disagreed that the Browns needed either less or more.  Here’s what I was thinking.  The Browns probably NEED WR, DL, OL, RB to compete.  If you add in one more WR and either a S or a LB I think they are playoff contenders.  Agree?

Related Posts

Zemanta
Filed Under: Browns Tagged With: , , , , , , , , , ,
  • sealedhuman

    “Anyone who is talking about something that won’t take place until after the season is over (like potentially firing a coaching staff) is, in my mind, rendering the last two contests meaningless”

    Apparently this doesn’t include talking about needs that will be addressed by trades and the draft (e.g. things that won’t take place until after the season is over). If you want to discuss the next two games, then discuss the next two games.

  • Chris

    Honestly, I think with the four you mentioned we could be wildcard contenders. All six and I expect a deep playoff run.

    We definately need an all pro WR, even if we’re going to be a smash-mouth football team, we have nothing that keeps defenses honest and prevents them from keying in on Hillis. And that is why we’re having such a tough time since the Jet’s games. Suddenly Hillis is a known threat and Ds try to stop him. Unfortunately he’s our only threat.

    Also, I think the previous few weeks relate back to another point I made in week 3 or 4: When your #1s and #2s play like #3s and #4s, by the end of the year when you’re banged up it’s going to be noticeable. At the time I actually was making a point about 2nd half [of the game] drop off, but I think it works for 2nd half [of the season] as well. Our team is just not deep enough to truly contend right now.

  • Dan

    Agreed on the 4 and 6 players, I have been saying that for weeks.

  • 216in614

    obviously we need a #1 WR. then we just have to go after the best talent available to add depth everywhere. i don’t think this team is especially deep in any one area.

    if we lose the next 2 are we in the top 10 of the draft? what salary cap room is left for big name free agents? is that at all a possibility?

  • Chris

    @4: I still would rather sign a proven WR. The need is just to great to risk it on the draft. Heck, maybe sign one and pick one up in the 2nd round… I would use the first round pick on a defensive pass rusher, though. Turn our D unit from pretty good to great, then worry about making our offence better than average instead of gag worthy.

  • MrCleaveland

    It’s Monday, Jan. 3, 2011, and the phone is ringing in Berea. Let’s listen in:

    Rrrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnngggggg . . . rrrrriiii . . . Good morning, you’ve reached the Cleveland Browns. How may I direct your call? . . . Mr. Mangini? I’m sorry, we have no one here by that name . . . Yes I know, Mr. Kokinis, you just love hearing that.

  • http://na M D

    Before everyone jumps to conclusions about next year and who we need and who is gone, how much effect has the loss of Billy Yates to the OL and Scott Fujita on defense effected this team? Yes we need play makers but lack of quality depth has what has stopped this team, not coaches and not game plans.

  • jbreg

    Great teams have great lines, offensive and defensive. Take a Right Tackle and a D-Lineman with the first two picks this year to shore up those positions. Assess the Hardesty situation and determine if you need another back with the 3rd pick, if not then you can go after a WR. McCoy seems to be able to move the ball / throw for 300 yards with the guys we have now, its not worth overpaying a potential WR bust (Braylon anyone).

    Craig, to your point I think the Browns are 3 players away from competing if Hardesty and Fujita are 100% next year (OL, DL, WR) and 6 away from a playoff team (OL, DL, WR, CB, S, LB)

  • Reggie Ruckus

    “The Browns probably NEED WR, DL, OL, RB to compete. If you add in one more WR and either a S or a LB I think they are playoff contenders. Agree?”

    Agree. Add FB and K to the mix if Vickers and Dawson leave.The good news is we may have the RB if Hardesty can return. Here’s the thing about WR’s…most of ‘em are drama queens. Ochocinco should be cut loose. TO, Santonio Holmes and Vincent Jackson are all free agents but all have massive baggage. I’d be willing to take on Holmes as I think he’s a special player. The defensive line is a mess. Rubin is the only legit starter on the roster (I don’t see Big Baby back) and the other guys are role players. A right tackle would solidify the O-line as the team’s strength. I think losing Yates, and having Lauvao and Pork Chop slowed by injury has hurt power running game.

    Complicating matters is the CBA. What if we have a lockout or what if an agreement comes late in the off-season and screws up the pursuit of free agents? Heckert is gonna be a busy man this offseason.

  • Harv 21

    You’re wrong, Craig. Winning the last 4 games last year did nothing for us in the beginning of this year, and that was with the same coach. Next season, and maybe a new staff, will bring its own attitude.

    As far as worrying that there would be “nothing to talk about,” that’s just a blogger’s concern; we commenters never lack for ideas and we won’t get bored. Attempting to micromanage the direction of Browns discussion in Cleveland makes you the guy furiously rowing in the middle of the tidal wave. Discussion is going to go, organically, where it will go. Relax, man, by next week half of us will have changed our minds again. Do a unitorium if you want. But if we don’t have a potty mouth and use our inside voices, leave us alone.

  • MallaLubba

    I think the need for a RB will all depend on the injury-free-ness of Hardesty. We could have a hell of a power run team with Hillis, Hardesty, and Vickers hitting on all cylinders. Speaking of Vickers: what happened to his pass catching skills this year? He used to be good for a surprise catch or two for a touchdown. Now, whenever you throw to his it bounces off like a brick wall.

  • subadai

    ” The Browns probably NEED WR, DL, OL, RB to compete. If you add in one more WR and either a S or a LB I think they are playoff contenders.”

    I would take RB out of the list until we see if Hardesty can be anything like he looked like becoming in the pre-season.

    I was one of the “Give us WR in FA and draft a pass-rusher 1 and a WR 2″ guys until this week. But it’s clear to me now that the run D is every bit as bad as the passrush. In the 3-4 the run game HAS to be controlled by the nosetackle. He has to control the center and both guards. Rubin was beat up yesterday and it really showed. Benson ran all over us. Rubin needs help and for some reason, Rogers isn’t that guy anymore.

    So, we need 1 WR, 2 DL (One DE and one NT), a passrushing OLB, and a RT. That’s 5 guys. One good draft. I would like to see the WR position addressed in FA so we would need to get 4 starters out of the draft plus a b/u QB because Holmgren has made it clear that he will draft a QB in the middle rounds each year.

    That’s do-able. But unlikely. It’s more likely that we need two drafts to find the NT.

  • Chris

    @Subadai, we need to draft a quality RB because we have no idea if Hardesty will ever be able to play. Two seasons, two blown out knees. NOT a good record.

  • mrbluesman

    I would give anything not to have to hear about Mangini’s job status for the next 2 weeks. Alas, there is a very vocal contingent of Browns Fans who just won’t stop talking about it. This team, with next to no talent, has given us a competitive, entertaining year. To suggest that this team hasn’t improved means you haven’t watched a Browns game this year. I shudder at the thought of bringing in yet another coach. It will be, then, 2 more years of tearing apart and rebuilding. We are on the edge of being a solid team in the NFL. Look at teams with more talent than we have (San Fran, Houston, Minnesota) and look at what bad coaching has done to those teams. I’m sure if Mangini had some of the players on those teams, we’d probably be at least 8-6. The NFL is a league of parity. We need some playmakers and these close losses could turn into close wins. Therefore, I agree with you on the 4 to 6 players. The prime need, as I see it, is a WR. Our receiving corps lacks a standout receiver.

  • Harv 21

    Re needed players, agree we’re 4-6 away. What the defense needs most is a leader who is also a stud player. My preference is a LB, because he is usually in a position to crush somebody, rally the troops and stop the nonsense we saw the last few games.

    Offense already has their leader. Obviously need a WR but better stockpile RBs. Hardesty looked electric but his history says he’s like owning a Jag: dynamite when operating but better calculate in plenty of shop time. Better have the Honda Accord in the garage too.

  • NJ

    Man, I hate the “X players away” argument. It’s basically a discussion where you’re saying nothing. All but the dregs of the league are four or five guys away from being competitive.

    Plus, as others pointed out, we have serious depth issues. Even if we got those four players, if one of them (or five or six other players) get injured (which is unavoidable) then we’re in big trouble.

    Not trying to be negative, just pointing out that our talent pool is still very shallow.

  • subadai

    @ Chris… I don’t really dis-agree about drafting a RB, but with so many other holes, I would think taking a RB before the 4th round is a luxury we can’t afford. Besides, RB is the easiest position to fill and they have the shortest shelf-lives. Unless you get Edgerrin James or LaDanian Tomlinson you’re better off going someplace else in the 1st round.

  • ben

    I really want to solidify the right side of our line. Unless it looks like lauvao is ready to give us quality minutes, that’s where I’d start.

  • historycat

    @ben et al.

    I do think we need to shore up the O-line, (if anyone read my post from late last night)

    But also there is the need for depth. even if we get the 4-6 missing pieces, that just means you’re one injury away from another 5-11 season. If we’re in it, I want to be in it. I don’t want another season of “what could have been” if one of those pieces is on the DL for an extended period . . . ya, I’m thinking of Fujita.

  • Garry Owen

    If we get that kicker from Nebraska, we’ll never have to cross the 50! 3 points every possession. Problems solved. We’re 1 player away.

  • bobby

    @20- nice thinking! that guy is a beast!

    In all seriousness tho, this team is really in need of a new coaching staff. The cupboard is NOT bare. The secondary is good, but depth is required. LBs need a playmaker. DL is a question mark, I think we will be heading towards a 43 so it depends on if Rogers gets healthy again, if bernard and roth come DEs or OLBs etc.

    I think if the browns added a RT, and DL (probably DE with a switch to the 43) and get Hardesty healthy then they are playoff contenders. Adding a #1 WR and a starting/play making LB makes this a team that can fight for the division.

    If I were playing GM, I would explore FAs for depth purposes (adding to OL, increasing talent to DL). My sketch for the draft would be WR first round (AJ Green), then OLB, DE, RT in a bpa from rounds 2-4. then depth in the last 3 rounds.

  • bobby

    Ideally my WRs would be Green, MoMass, Robo and Moore entering next season. Stuckey should be cut, and Cribbs should go to ST and RB/Wildcat back.

  • Carl Tassoff

    I believe Mangini was told early last week that he was gone at the end of the season.

    Who the Browns need to get depends on who the coach is.

    My belief is that even if Holmgren doesn’t coach, he’ll be looking for a coach that runs a 4-3 on defense, and the West Coast Offense on the other side of the ball. This is not just what Holmgren prefers but it is the same general structure that Heckert worked with in Philly with Andy Reid.

    Mangini and Daboll are such awful offensive coaches, that it is premature to label players based on what they were instructed to do in that archaeic excuse for an offense.

    The one positive I see is that in a 4-3 Sean Rogers can join Rubin as DT’s with Schaferling as their back-up, and that should prove to be awesome.

  • Carl Tassoff

    I might add about the Browns needs for next season……

    Eric Mangini excusemakers/jocksniffers such as Terry Pluto and Cleveland Frowns have gotten Browns fans to actually think the Browns have “no talent” as they make excuses for a coach with a 5 year record of 33-45. This is pure nonsense. Football is a coaches game, and the players have to do what they’re instructed to do to stay on the field.

    Next year – for the first time in more than a decade – Cleveland Browns fans will be treated to a professional head coach, along with experienced coordinators and position coaches. It is totally unfair to pass judgment on players that had to play under this regime. The offense is a tinker toy operation, ant the defense was just a make-it-up-as-we-go.

  • MattyFos

    The Browns need 4 starting LB’s. 2 starting DE. 2 backup Corners. A number one Receiver. A right tackle. A healthy Montario Hardesty. A third back option in the mold of Larod Stephens- Howling who can return kicks and get about 5 touches on offense through screens and draws. A new OC (can’t think about the future without giddy thinking about the firing of Brian Daboll). A backup Safety would be nice. Some depth at receiver would be nice too!

  • bobby

    Matty your being a little over dramatic there. for 1, the browns will most likely be in a 43 next year, so they would only need 3 LBs to start (I am assuming Mangini is gone, so lets work with that). Fujita would be 1 OLB (hes only going to be 31 i think) and Gocong has been a solid MLB this season. DQ is gone in my mind, if not then hes in the middle and Gocong is either backup or the other OLB. Roth will either be DE or OLB, or he could be a trade piece to get another draft pick. Bernard is kinda the same boat. I think he would make a good DE if he bulked up a bit more.

    As for WRs- MoMass and Robo have shown spurts, and I would be interested in seeing what they got with some competent coaching. As I said, those 2 with AJ Green would look really nice.

    I agree with Carl too. Esp. people here seem to think that theres no talent at all and Mangini has done what he has despite this. I dont buy it. I think this team should be at least a .500 team right now, and fighting for playoffs. Look around the league and evry team has weak spots. Coaching needs to put those pieces in situations where they can get the most out of it. Coaching needs to find a way to take adv. of their own strengths. This staff does an awful job at that.

  • fan 4 life

    A lot of good talk on this thread. My thoughts are like some of the last posters, the team already has good pieces. Adding to them in the draft will certainly help but we have a playoff team right now. If Colt McCoy started from the beginning of the season, we would most likely have beat KC, Tampa, Falcons, and most likely the Ravens. Of course, we were lucky that Colt got a chance to start this season and everyone now knows what he can do.

    If Daboll knew how to call a full game, we would have beat the Jets, Jags and obviously Buffalo. The cincy game was just a result of the d being run ragged from a long season of being on the field way too much in the 2nd halfs of games. Injuries set in and when you need your offense to save your butts and give you some rest, Daboll was there to screw it all up. Despite a bad offensive line performance this year, we still had the tools to win and that combined with the defense, kept us in plenty of games most didn’t think we belonged in. Seriously, 5 loses by 4 points or less, 2 losses by 7 points and a 10 and 18 point loss.

    I was sold for awhile on getting a stud WR in the first round but now it doensn’t seem like the smartest pick up. Colt can’t throw the deep ball well (30+) but is excellent at anything short of that. That high priced stud WR would be a decoy at best. If that is the plan to open the run game, I am okay with that but hope that fans understand that. Our short route receivers/tight ends are solid and can get the job done when combined with a strong run game.

    Like others, think a stud D-lineman would be a good first pick. If AJ green fell to us, I wouldn’t turn him away.

    Priorities have to be made with the offensive line 1st and foremost though. If they think our guys who were injuried can be 100% next year, draft an o lineman late in the draft, as a caution. If they think we need to fill that gap, maybe getting one in the 1st or 2nd round is the smart move. We need to help out our qb’s.

    I am hoping that we trade up in the draft for more picks, if the price is right and the top guys we want/need are off the board. It is looking like we will pick no worse than 9th if we cannot beat Pitt or Balt. With as ragged as the defense looked yesterday, the last 2 games could get ugly – that is unless the offense can actually spell them a good amount. Seriously, our d is on the field more than all but only 6 other NFL teams.

    We are on the right track. This year was so much better/more competitive than last that it has actually been exciting following things. Some small tweeks is all that is needed – but a great draft will go a long way to add to the future.

    Before my rant is over, gotta mention Cribbs. Please keep him as a return man only – or just mostly. It was a bad idea and unless I am crazy, most others feel the same way? He had around 1500 return yards last year, this year a bit over 700 with 2 games to go. He got hurt because of his role in the offensive scheme. Devin Hester is the perfect example of what not to do. He had 1600 combined return yards in 2007, now he barely has over 700 and he is averaging 30 yards a game receiving. Field position is much more important than Cribbs getting 30+ yards a game as a receiver. I would rather have the browns start on the 45 – 50 yard line than the 25 yard line.

    rant over. go browns

  • subadai

    @25

    Are you writing that to Santa? I count 12 players, one OC, and two healthy knees on that list. One heck of a Christmas list.

    Also, as far as WR’s are concerned… am the only one that thinks we could get Larry Fitzgerald out of Arizona… if we had a proven OC? Hell… Russ Grimm is there in AZ. He’s ready to be an OC. I WOULD love to have one of the original HOGS as my OC if he can bring Fitz. Plus, he seems to have a huge motive to give the Stteelers a double-barreled middle finger. Huge plus.

  • bobby

    If the browns pulled in Larry Fitz then I would be all over that. I think VJ, Holmes and some of the other WRs may go for more than their worth tho and I would shy away. Larry is a top 5 WR in the league tho and I would not mind paying him that.