June 19, 2013

Some (Very) Early Thoughts on the MLB Trade Market

For several years now, the MLB trade season has been met with something between apathy and dread in Cleveland —both springing from the resignation that the Indians would again be “sellers,” trading any assets they had to reload the farm system for a new cycle of contention.

This season is shaping up a bit differently.  As the team continues to hang around in the weak AL Central, there is a growing sentiment that not only should the Indians not be sellers, but they should be actively looking to acquire short-term assets that can help the team win now, even at the expense of some of the young players and prospects currently moving through the system.

Today let’s examine some of the approaches to this year’s upcoming trading melee, as well as the consequences of each.

The first option I’ve heard goes something like this:

First place is rare.  When you have a chance to win the division, you go for it. Damn the torpedoes.  Don’t worry about the farm system or the pipeline.  Acquire the best bat you can on the trade market with the talent we have in the minors.  Go all in on 2011.

If you need an example, think something like acquiring Carlos Beltran from the Mets for Kipnis and Pomeranz.

Let me say that just because I disagree with this sort of thinking, it does not mean that it’s completely without merit.  It’s a terribly frustrating thing to watch a season turn sour in July while your minor league teams continue to win Championships.  And while it’s fun to dream on Drew Pomeranz and Jason Kipnis and Nick Hagadone and Alex White, none of them is likely to help us make the playoffs this season.

On the other hand, it doesn’t seem wise, especially for a team like the Indians, to trade cheap assets for expensive ones, which is basically what a trade like this would do.  Any big name that we acquire in a trade—if he’s any good—will cost us at least one, and maybe two, of our big name prospects.

The second line of thinking is more modest:

Our Major League team currently has both strengths and weaknesses.  Trade from our positions of strength to bolster our weaknesses.  Don’t touch the big prospects, but try to sell high on a Josh Tomlin or Raffy Perez to pry a bat from a contender in need of pitching help.  Then promote from within to take the spot (Hagadone or McCallister).

This makes some sense to me because I believe that we’ve seen some successes this year that aren’t likely to continue, especially from the two players I mentioned.   But again, would you give up Josh Tomlin, who’s making the league minimum, for a corner OF bat with no defensive value on the wrong side of 30 who makes $5 to $10 million a year?  Because I think that’s what he’d get us right now.  Raffy Perez would get us less than that.

While this scenario strikes me as attractive, it also seems fairly unlikely to land us the impact bat we seem to need.  Sure, it might appease the screamers who demand that something be done NOW (or else???), but in the long run, you’re still likely going to lose an affordable asset for a more expensive one.  And if you don’t win this year?  You’re likely weaker down the road.

Long-story short?  There just aren’t a whole lot of teams out there that want to trade young, cheap talented players.  So why should we?

Third, of course, is to do basically nothing.  The front office would never admit to this sort of strategy, but if the deadline comes and goes, we’ll pretty much know that this is what they settled on.  And it’s actually defensible, in my opinion.  The Indians are making progress.  They are getting better.  The cycle looks to be starting.  Why should we do something that might hurt our chances to contend for the next several years just to try to win the division now?  Aren’t we still a pretty flawed team in 2011, even if we add an All-Star bat to the middle of the lineup?

It seems clear, to me at least, that the problems we have right now aren’t going to be fully solved by acquiring one player.  What will solve the problem is letting Michael Brantley and Asdrubal Cabrera and Carlos Santana and Carlos Carrasco and Justin Masterson and Lonnie Chisenhall and Alex White and Drew Pomeranz and Jason Kipnis continue to develop as cheap, viable Major League players who can help this team contend for the next six to ten years.  Not only do I not want to lose any of them, but I don’t want to deviate from the plan that we’ve been following for the last two years.  After all, it’s finally starting to work.

But as always, I know I’ll probably be a minority.  Let’s find out to what degree:

  • stin4u

    I think with the ship taking on water the way it is you sit tight, play the kids and hope they can produce.

    It sucks to say but play for the future at this point. If this team still had a commanding lead in the central things would be different but look more towards next year when chiz, santana, phelps etc. all have a full year and spring under their belt.

    Besides there isn’t much out there right now. With any luck Sizemore will go on a hot streak and someone will need and outfielder….or just need to unload a bunch of used jock straps. Either or, take it and move on, he sucks.

  • mgbode

    Other: I am a proponent of trading some of our higher level guys that are likely to not be apart of our future. Which guys those exactly are is tough to know without the FO knowledge, but we can guess.

    Huff (obviously)
    Valbuena (also obvious with how he is hitting this year but can’t get a callup)
    Jeanmar Gomez (I would think it’d take alot to get him a rotation spot)
    Cord Phelps (if he’s blocked longterm by Kipnis, then use him to help now because he’s in an adjustment period to MLB)
    Marson – only if needed and we can get somebody we consider really good. TB needs a catcher desperately. Desperately enough to give up Hellickson? probably not, but i’d ask.

    these guys likely don’t get you the Beltran bat, but maybe they pickup a Ludwick or a tier below him (tough to say which teams are going to be sellers at this point)

  • dwhit110

    That Beltran deal is an awfully rich deal for a guy who’d be here for half a season, and would cost about $9 million. Seems like he could be had for less… Like Kipnis and a low-minor, high upside, less of a sure thing arm like Kyle Blair or Bryce Stowall.

  • NJ

    Here’s why I feel bad for the the Indian’s front office: they put together some young talent setting a Contend Date for ’13 or so. When their strategy starts showing signs of success (earlier than expected too), the rabble decide that it’s high time to abandon what has worked in favor of the Win Now Approach.

    All I know is that whatever the front office decides, people will criticize them ceaselessly, either for being cheap or trading away the next superstar. Or maybe something new.

    I say stay the course. If Choo, Santana, Hafner, and Sizemore were all healthy and raking, if our every day bench wasn’t a black hole of suck, if we had a bona fide ace and a legit left-handed starter, if we only needed one or two parts, if we were a 95-100 win team rather than an 80-85 win team, then feel free to trade away parts.

  • Jake

    Agree with MgBode. Make a deal for a RF who CAN HIT (Beltran, Frankeur, even Coco Crisp) and only deal someone who we don’t see as the future “core” of the Tribe. This means Huff, Gomez, Valbuena, McBride and Barnes. I’d even be willing to deal McCallister, Hagadone, Phelps or even one of last year’s high picks (Wolters, Washington)if it means getting a TOP player or All Star talent (Dan Haren actually makes sense). But as long as we don’t deal White, Pomeranz or Kipper, I’m on board.

  • 216in614

    Trade Tomlin? Are you nuts?

  • Jake

    But before we make a deal, promote Carrera and drop Kearns. To keep Keaarns solely because he is RH is a joke. Its not like he’s a .300 hitter, I’m sure his replacement, anyone, will bat just as well against lefties. Basically, for tonights game, I’d rather have Buck or Carrera going against a Lefty rather than Kearns. And if thats the case, why is he on this team?

  • Boomhauertjs

    I would sell high on Raffy or Joe Smith for a RH OF bat and bring up Judy or Hagadone.

  • John

    Agree with Jake, but sell Carmona or Talbot in a package that can net Haren or Wright.

  • http://twitter.com/cpmack Chris M

    I’ll probably catch heat for saying this, but if Sizemore lights it up for a couple weeks after the break, then trade him. You should be able to get a decent haul out of it, with next year being a team option on his contract.

    With his injury history being what it is, can anyone here really justify having the Indians pick up his $9 million option next season? I personally cannot.

  • Natedawg86

    Get a hold of Seattle and see what they want to give us for Kearns, Everett, O CAB…

  • http://Serandez.blogspot.com Ezzie

    i agree with the post and a couple commenters. if anything, I’d be open to trading away the following in addition to the guys mgbode mentioned:
    Sizemore. Hafner. carmona (too unreliable, can get us a decent bat in a package). choo – he’s not young.

    this isn’t the NFL or NBA where being .500 is death. give these Young guys another year to see who is going to help get us there and then fill the rest.

  • Julie

    I have to say, I absolutely agree with your conclusion. It makes no sense to trade prospects now, especially at the expense of the team down the road. I would love to make it to the playoffs this year, but I really can’t see us winning the World Series with this team, so why give up a prospect for someone who probably won’t get us much further?

  • christopher

    trade Carmona…to who? i cant think of any teams in need of an absent minded flash in the pan, can you?

  • bobby

    I dont think Sizemore is in any kind of deal right now. Also I think the FO will be smart enough then to trade Pomeranz. If BOS and PHI could have ‘no touch’ prospects when we were trading a CY young winner and all-star catcher, i think we have options. Dont overspend.

    My goal would be to get a short-term rental. I have no qualms about getting a beltran or someone for the rest of the season as long as we dont give up a ton of top prospects. Mcalister and Pomeranz should not be in the deal. We have youth and depth elsewhere though so trading a Kipnis or Phelps while not ideal would be ok. If Fausto or Mitch can be packaged that would be nice too, since we have White coming back soon and McAlister in Cbus. If the deal is right then getting a guy who can add a threat in the middle of the line-up will benefit everyone. The younger guys can get more pitches to see. The struggling (Sizemore-LaPorta-Choo-Santana) will be able to get pressure off them to perform and hope would be they relaxat the plate. That goes for Cabrera and Brantley as well as they wont always need the big hit (you could see how let own Asdrubal was after popping up in the 9th last night).

  • dwhit110

    The comments on this article are threatening to make my eyes bleed. The pu-pu platters of players who aren’t in our plans that people are talking about dealing (Valbuena, Huff) would not be enough to get any sort of decent talent back, unless we’re talking about taking on a significant amount of money as part of the deal (which I’m sure we can all agree is not exactly realistic).

    Additionally I’m going to pretend that I didn’t see Jeff Francour’s name in the same sentence as “can hit”.

  • bobby

    Tell me Carlos-Masterson-Tomlin-White (if they all continue to perform at current levels tho white is more of a projection) isnt a very solid playoff rotation. I have been trying to decide how the best line-up would go but an outfield of Sizemore-Brantley-Cuddyer/Beltran (my top 2 hopes… twins need a quick losing streak to become sellers). LaPorta-Phelps-Cabrera-Chiz. Thats a very solid line-up as well. Plus, getting to the playoffs can only help the development of the young guys. Experience is not something that can be simulated.

  • bobby

    Im sure there are some AA or single A players that with Kipnis could get us a solid player.

  • NJ

    @10 – Sizemore’s 2012 team option becomes a player option if he is traded.

  • NJ

    When did Kipnis become expendable? Last time I checked, he was our #1 prospect at second base which we happen to have a gaping hole at. And please, do not mention Cord Phelps and his five errors in ten games to me.

  • Bob

    Stay the course!

  • mgbode

    @NJ – I agree. His name is getting thrown in here way too easily. I included Phelps as tradeable because we have Kipnis coming. It’s not the other way around.

    @dwit – You are correct that we would have to take on salary for those players to net us anything back. I choose to believe the FO that we will be buyers and will be willing to increase payroll. I think that there is room in our budget for such an increase. I could be wrong with the #26 attendance (still under 20K per game), but we’ll see.

    Larry Dolan’s Indians payrolls per year
    2011 $49mil
    2010 $61
    2009 $81
    2008 $79
    2007 $61
    2006 $56
    2005 $41
    2004 $34
    2003 $48
    2002 $79
    2001 $92

  • bobby

    Switch in Phelps for Kipnis then. Point being, we can and should go for playoffs this year. What negatives do we have if we dont give up McAlister, Pomeranz or Kipnis?

  • TSR3000

    We are not going to get anything we want for anyone we don’t mind giving up. Let’s just keep going towards 2012 and 2013 contention.

  • Ghost To Most

    I dont think they should go after a star, but I would like to see them add a quality veteran who can hit. Just to throw an example out there, the Cubs will probably look to dump Carlos Pena’s contract. If we can get him for a couple of 2nd tier prospects, I say go for it. Obviously I wouldnt trade one of our top guys, but I dont think anyone in their right mind is suggesting we do that.

    It doesnt have to be a “star” and it doesnt have to be somebody who would require a kings ransom in a trade. The Giants picked up Cody Ross off waivers from the Marlins and look at the impact he made for them last postseason.

  • bobby

    Anything is better then the likes of Buck, Kearns and Duncan playing outfield. Even when Choo gets back he wasnt hitting well before a hand injury, I doubt it will finish better.

    We all saw this team perform at an extremely high level when things were bouncing the right way. Obviously they are not going to do that throughout the season. But they still have a very real chance to contend RIGHT NOW. The pitching is stellar. If this pitching staff had ANY sort of offense then we would be a lot closer to the team we saw the first 45 games. Clutch hits wont happen all season from people batting below .250. Whats wrong with packaging Phelps (and calling up Kipnis)- and say Beau Mills- and say Gardner, Blair, Putnam, etc (a young pitching prospect since we have too many to play in the majors).

    We didnt realize we could contend this year. We are ahead of schedule. Lets take full advantage of it. Why throw a chance out the door because “we are ahead of schedule.”

  • NJ

    @26 – This club is in so much flux right now, I don’t want to spend the money or the prospects to get a vet that will (hopefully) provide us with 2 WAR over sixty games or so. I don’t think that’ll be enough to make a difference.

    Frankly, I just don’t think we’re that good, especially now with Choo out.

  • mgbode

    @NJ – we don’t need to be “that” good. we just need to be “better than the Tigers” or “barely above .500″ as the rest of the baseball world would call it.

    if we trade prospects we are not going to use anyway to get a vet that helps us get to the postseason, then even if we get swept in the 1st round I would consider it a success. gives these guys the confidence and experience for future seasons.

  • bobby

    Thanks mgbode. Thats my point exactly. We are starting to get the people who WILL be part of the indians for the next 3-5 years get here. Lets get them into the postseason. It will only help the youngsters out.

  • NJ

    When I say “that good”, I mean “good enough to win the Central”.

    Look, I’m not against trading guys, but until there’s some legit, real world trades proposed by actual clubs, what’s the point of dreaming about turning Valbuena and Marson into Beltran or Cuddyer? Any fan would love to trade junk we don’t need for players who can actually contribute. That’s a no-brainer. But I don’t think it’s going to be that easy in the real world.

    I agree with TSR’s astute observation @24, “We are not going to get anything we want for anyone we don’t mind giving up.”

  • bobby

    Theres a difference between the bench players some people are talking about and the actual prospects I am mentioning. We have LOADS of pitching depth in the minors. Phelps is a solid player who I would like to keep, but if hes not in out plans Im sure he could certainly help another team. Move some of the depth to get a 1 year rental.

  • NJ

    I just think that when the rubber hits the road, any player that can help us will require dealing assets that I’m not willing to part with.

  • bobby

    Like who? We arent going to trade Pomeranz, McAlister or Kipnis. We arent going to trade away a quality contributor to the tribe now because thats counter-productive. So who is it we are giving up that would be invaluable for the future? Yes its all speculation right now, but the point being that in the next 2 weeks we should be exploring any trades to bring home a bat.

  • NJ

    Fair enough.

    Again, until I see what we’d be giving and getting, the discussion is kind of pointless to me.

    I just assume that we’d have to give up too much while you believe that we could give up a fair amount. Potato, potato.

  • bobby

    I dont think we’d have to give up more then we got for Cliff or CC. But yes, until we hear more speculation its a moot point.

  • NJ

    I never said we shouldn’t explore trades.

    I’ll say again – I just don’t think we’re that good right now. Sorry. I don’t.

    In my mind, We have holes/question marks at first, second, third, center, and right. On top of that, our entire bench is garbage. While Carasco et al have had flashes of brilliance, I’m not sure how consistent any of them will be going forward. Carmona sucks. The bullpen is solid.

    Saying all that, I don’t feel comfortable trading possible ML guys like a Kipnis or a Phelps (I’d rather see both get serious ML time before deciding on them), for what I see as a very, very, very uncertain remainder of the 2011 season.

  • mgbode

    @NJ – I see the logic in your approach as well. the only issue I see is that if we want to get the most value out of either Phelps or Kipnis, then we need to decide now and trade them. if we wait for one to obviously take the lead, then we could lose the value in the other.

    most obvious (and worst case) example: think about when Phil Savage refused to trade Derek Anderson or Quinn after 2007. he wanted to give Derek a shot while hedging his bets w/ Quinn. instead Derek fell flat on his face until we cut him and Quinn was a busted-draft pick who everyone thought we had to trade off for virtually nothing (thank you McDaniel for your time in Denver)

  • NJ

    But football isn’t baseball. For the Tribe, I’ll take picking the right one and getting nothing in return for the other every time.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Jon

    I think NJ is doing a good job making the argument I would. Let me throw this in.

    Last season, the ‘untouchable’ McCallister was trading for fourth OF Austin Kearns. Before that, we got Mitch Talbot for a back up catcher.

    I just don’t think we can get quality bats without giving up a lot. We don’t live in a world where we can package Valbuena and Huff and some other fungible assets and turn it into an impact bat. We’ll have to trade cheap, good players for expensive, good players. And that’s not something I’m crazy about doing.

  • mgbode

    I don’t think it’s a baseball vs. football metric when arguing ROV in trades though. it’s more risk assessment strategy.

    trading Phelps this year gives the benefit of possibly adding a tangible asset in a hitter, but also the intangible asset of potentially keeping us in the race longer that helps the entire team of players for the future (or helping us win the divisional race)

    also, while it is easy to assume the way to hedge on the risk is to keep both and just play through the one that ‘wins’ there is risk that both fail and you are left holding nothing. if diamond-view is pointing to a reasonable assumption that Kipnis is better, then the FO needs to trust it and deal Phelps while his value is high (or if their metrics are showing that Phelps is higher in value than he can fetch in a trade, then by all means keep him)

  • bobby

    Im seeing it as tho we have a window that is around 5 years before we blow it all up again. If i am the GM for the tribe, I am making a list of who will be the “core” players for that window. If you dont make that list then your expendable. The majority of the prospects wont turn out to be quality ML starters anyways.

  • NJ

    @40 – But it’s all a matter of “what ifs…” What if both suck? What if both are awesome? What if the guy we trade for is terrible in the second half? What if he blows his ankle? What if the rest of the team sucks when our new superstud gets here?

    I’ll take the two young guys I got at league minimum over the vet and his $5M-$9M price tag. As a fan, I’d rather have them bank that money and spend it elsewhere down the road.

    @41 – See, this is where I break from the FO a bit. I don’t buy the competive cycle every five years nonsense. Smart spending, investing in the draft, developing young (cheap) players, avoiding expensive contracts, avoiding trading for vets… if we do that, I think we’d be able to compete year in year out.

    The Nonstop Youth Movement, patent pending.

  • JD

    Teams that are close to the top of the pack and can say things like:

    “Oh man, if only we had a right-handed power bat, our lineup would be so much more balanced” or

    “We’re just a great late-inning lefty away from locking down this bullpen!”

    …those are the teams that should be making those “all-in NOW!” kind of moves.

    Teams that are close to the top of the pack and say things like:

    “Oh man, if only we had a first baseman that could hit, a 2B that could actually catch and throw the ball, any production from our corner OFers, find a veteran bat here or there so that we don’t have to have 10 rookies on the roster at once, completely overhaul our bench and maybe pick up one more starter…then we’d have this division locked up!”

    …those types of teams may want to be honest about where they’re really at come July 31st.

    One deal (or even two) won’t plug the many holes on the SS Wigwam, so I say play the kids, hope for the best, and wait until the time is truly right to strike and mortgage our one true asset (cheap talent) in an effort to win it all.

  • DCTribeFan

    First off, I’m a firm believer in standing pat. The biggest need, IMHO, is for a righthanded bat that can play the outfield and pinch-hit, hopefully with some pop. Buck will either be that guy in the next 20 games, or be looking for a new team next year.

    Having said that, trades never happen in a vacuum. So who MIGHT the sellers be in the next few weeks? Royals, Astros, Cubs (maybe) Padres, Pirates, Dodgers, Dbacks (maybe)…Who do they have to offer in a *reasonable* sort of deal? Jeff Francouer (11 jacks, 47 rbis, .261), Melky Cabrerra, Matt Diaz (NO pop),Marcus Thames (no pop)Ryan Ludwick (been there, done that)Melvin Mora (old, but who can play the outfield and is FREE right now)Reed Johnson (on DL)…and a few others I’m too lazy to even pull up. Let’s just agree we aren’t talking household names here, although I wouldn’t argue one bit against a Francoeur deal.

    Just about any of them would be a good trade to replace Kearns, which would require us to eat $700K and take on another $1-1.5M for the rest of the year, AND lose a decent (not great) prospect. All to pick up a win, maybe 2.

    Yall (token Virginia drawl) can dream about Beltran, etc. It aint happenin.

  • CLESportsFan

    I am so torn.

    On one hand, I see the point of waiting it out with the young guys we have as we are not just ONE impact player away from a World Series run.

    On the other hand, we hear this front office talk so much about catching “lightning in a bottle”. So if we stay the course, are we throwing away our chance to catch the lightning and win the Central Division?

  • Mike

    Feels like everyone who is against trading prospects for a proven player always talks about trading only the best prospects.

    As if the Indians ever got *anything close* to the best prospects in other organizations when they traded Sabathia, Lee and Martinez. While some of the guys returning in those trades have been productive, none were in the top 3 prospects for their former organizations.

    So instead of saying the Indians have to trade Pomeranz and Kipnis for Beltran, maybe we start with a deal around Jeanmar “You have 15 pitchers just like me in the system” Gomez.

  • DCTribeFan

    @Mike-
    Largely agree, but I seem to recall Carrasco was the Phillies #2 pitching prospect–we couldn’t pry their #1 loose for Lee, but then they shipped him out for Holliday?

    And, I don’t know where McAllister was ranked in the Yankees system ( as if they really even have a “system”) but we got him for a 60 day rental of Kearns and he’s got arguably the best numbers in Columbus so far.

    I think great scouting beats good scouting. Pundit’s rankings are suspect much of the time. I say give the Tribe scouting operations some kudos recently for a job well done. I wonder if we could get Domonic Brown from the Phillies for Gomez? I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.