Cavs Fall Victim in Their First Back-to-Back of 2011-12 Season
January 5, 2012What’s Antonetti’s Next Move? Carlos Pena?
January 5, 2012“I have confidence. We will get this done.” – Mike Holmgren
Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert didn’t pull a lot of punches in my opinion. Without throwing anyone under the bus, and while trying to be supportive of current players and coaches, they indicated that they need to get better across the board from year one to year two of the Pat Shurmur era. On a high level, Heckert seemed satisfied with the progress of the defense, but was willing to acknowledge that he and the organization need to spend some serious time and effort injecting talent into the offense. I thought Holmgren and Heckert were less critical than they could have been, but reading between the lines, I think we can make some educated guesses about how they feel about certain phases of the team.
Mike Holmgren also did a good job trying to control the message out of Berea. The team isn’t where they want to be and they must get better from this year to next, but he made a special point to tell the media that he, Tom Heckert and Randy Lerner are committed, care deeply and want nothing more than to turn this thing around and get better. Some will undoubtedly call it lip-service and groan or roll their eyes, but it is this kind of re-assurance and consistent message that is important out of an organization that relies on fan faith.
Yes, the team needs to back it up by winning on Sundays, but if they can stem a few of the “carpetbagger” type tides that indicate Mike Holmgren only cares about money and all Randy Lerner cares about is soccer, then I am all for the Browns repeating this kind of sentiment ad nauseum on their way to trying to fix this team.
On Colt McCoy…
The Browns seem to still like Colt McCoy as a guy and recognize that he is still young and could improve. They claim (and I believe them) that they will evaluate everyone available in free agency and the draft. Mike Holmgren also said that he’s seen lots of QBs go through seasons like Colt McCoy had this season and then blossom later. He went as far as to say it “usually” goes this way.
My interpretation, though, is that the Browns will not be afraid to bring in a new QB, but they won’t force the issue whether it be RG3 or Matt Flynn or anyone else. Colt McCoy isn’t finished with the Browns, but he will more than likely have to beat someone out for the right to remain the starter. Whether that is a free agent or someone from the third round of the draft this year remains to be seen. I’m guessing it will be someone other than Seneca Wallace.
On Free Agency…
The Browns will continue to find free agents and bring them in, but their goal is still to build primarily through the draft. Teams grab an extra win or two in certain years by going through free agency, but as a general rule the Browns are going to build through the draft.
On wide receivers…
When talking about your own players, Holmgren stated that they will always be more positive than negative. The Browns think they have some things to work on. He thinks, specifically they see some things they would like to build on with Greg Little. The Browns feel they need to upgrade all over the offense, not just wide receivers.
The message here is that they want the guys on the roster to continue to work hard, but that the team will probably be adding to the competition in training camp. This isn’t anything we couldn’t have already guessed.
On Shurmur…
“He is good. He is smart and he will do whatever it takes in an unselfish manner to make the team better.” Holmgren wouldn’t get into specifics about what that does and doesn’t mean because he doesn’t know yet. “If we’re 4-12 again next year, I won’t be happy.” “I expect to have a better record next year.”
While Holmgren went on to criticize the philosophy and notion of a pre-season “Hot Seat” he seemed to keep the pressure on his coach to improve from year one to year two. He expressed confidence that Shurmur was smart and adaptable enough to do it. Hot seat or no, I am guessing if the Browns finish next season 4-12 Shurmur will have a tough time keeping his job barring seriously extenuating circumstances.
On draft picks…
“We positioned ourselves to have draft picks to fill the holes on this team.” To me that doesn’t sound like an organization that is going to put a blockbuster package together for Andrew Luck, does it?
Mike Holmgren ended the presser strangely. He claimed it was off the record and said to the media, “If we take a defensive player with the 4th pick in the draft, would that upset you?” How’s that for some juicy misdirection?
70 Comments
I do not understand H and H’s reluctance to tap into free agency. This team has so many holes, it’s impossible (and risky) to rely solely upon the draft. I didn’t understand why the Browns didn’t utilize this tool prior to this season, and I don’t understand why Holmgren continues to take stance. Free agency isn’t the complete answer, but it sure can help. Just ask the Saints.
The Browns did use free agency and trades over the last two years to bring in Hillis, Jayme Mitchell, Brandon Jackson, Usama Young, Sheldon Brown, Dimitri Patterson, Gocong, Fujita and others.
The Browns claim they will continue to use free agency. I think they are just warning us all that they won’t turn into the Washington Redskins signing high profile guys for big money every year.
I guess my frustration comes from not signing a free agent WR last year. Lee Evans would have helped. James Jones was a FA. And during the season, I would have gladly given up the 4th round pick to the Broncos for Brandon Lloyd. A veteran WR would have helped mentor our young receivers. A veteran WR could have also have been a big help to McCoy. I don’t want us to be the Redskins either, but this team needs the kind of help that’s impossible to fill through the draft.
Lee Evans had four receptions on the season.
The Saints’ use of Free Agency on Drew Brees was a huge gamble that paid off immensely. Now, if you want to point to Darren Sproles, then that’s certainly with merit.
I concur with Craig in that they’ll sprinkle free agents here and there, but they’ll never focus on winning the offseason like the ‘Skins.
There are franchise QBs coming out next year (Matt Barkley specifically), so I suspect #4 will be chosen among the Blackmon/Richardson/Kalil combo (presuming someone trades up to get RG3 and/or someone trades a couple of #1s to the Browns to get RG3 themselves). I won’t be surprised if it’s the latter if it still means staying in the top 15 this year and getting them ammo for a potential move in 2013.
And I’ll be floored if they don’t sign at least one WR and one lineman in free agency this year. They could use a veteran to help Little and whoever else they draft, that’s for damn sure. They have the money, after all …
@ Craig: Lee Evans was injured, be fair/balanced.
Do I hate it when Holmgren continually asks himself questions and then answers them? Yes.
Does this annoying habit become very tedious after about the third time? Absolutely.
Do I think he’ll stop doing this? No.
Other than that, I found Holmgren to be pretty entertaining while not saying very much. We’re getting a mixed message about McCoy, though. Sounds to me that they’d love to replace him, but that they’re leaving the door open for him if they can’t.
So he would have been healthy here? My objection all along was that he is old for a WR.
I loved the SB talk that was indirectly sprinkled in there.
GB found QB in year3 and got to SB in year 7.
SEA found QB in year1 and got to SB in year 5.
If we find QB this offseason, then we get to SB in 4 years, right? that’s how it works?
@oribiasi – Lee Evans wasn’t injured when Sheldon Brown. Sorry, THE SHELDON BROWN shut him down in the Baltimore game. He also goes by “the second most requested Browns starter to be replaced after Tony Pashos”
@ Craig: You don’t know what he would have been here. Neither do I. He would have been an instant upgrade over any of our receivers, that’s for sure. Barring an injury. Which anyone can have at any time in the NFL.
@ mgbode: They were too busy running Ray Rice to the tune of 204 yards on our “improved” defense for them to throw to anyone, really. Flacco didn’t have to throw it, so why risk it?
Just like Donte Stallworth was too…
@ Edgewater Joe:
I hope you’re right about someone potentially trading the farm to the Browns for RG3. If we can’t get Blackmon, I would love nothing more than to trade the pick for a couple more #1s. I hope that’s what all of this mixed messaging about the QB situation is about: Build up the conventional wisdom that the Browns will take RG3, then sucker-punch some desperate team (not too far below the #4 spot) willing to give us a windfall in exchange.
@ Craig: Just like Brandon Lloyd would have been here…
We can keep doing this or admit that they should have done SOMETHING with the WR position BEFORE the season started. Which is another fail on their part.
Wrong. He would not have been an instant upgrade. PERIOD.
@oribiasi – sorry, should have been more clear. i was talking about the 2nd game when we ‘held’ Rice to 87yds on the ground.
that was where Sheldon punked Lee Evans and came away with the INT in the endzone (and also batted a ball away from him and held him without a reception the rest of the game they were mostly lined up against each other). once again, we’re talking about Sheldon Brown here.
@ chris: Name one WR on our team who has had better numbers than Lee Evans before his injury-riddled year in Baltimore.
Does anyone else find it amazingly funny that Oribiasisisa has never lost an argument and now he has turned his attentions to LEE EVANS??? Lee Evans??
@15
Garry, you make an excellent point about their comments regarding McCoy’s status.
I wouldn’t mind giving up the #4 pick if RG is still there provided that we get some immediate help elsewhere on offense.
@ Chris: I was super wrong about Holmgren, my friend. I thought he’d fix this team in no time. I figured by year two we’d be .500 and on our way to a brighter future.
Boy was I wrong.
I was also wrong in thinking that Browns fans were uniformly against losing. Apparently we’re alright with it at times because of “patience” or some such nonsense which has worked so well for us in the past.
These are just two examples.
Lee would have gotten us to the super bowl no doubt. I dont need numbers of this and that blag blah blah. Do people really believe he would have made us have 13 wins instead of 4?? Thats what its about. I could care less about how many receptions he had 3 years ago in Buffalo. Screw it they should have tried to sign Randy and TO. Those 2 with Evens we would have went 6-0 in the division.
@ Chris: What you’re saying is beyond intellectually lazy. Did anyone suggest we would have gone to the playoffs with one addition? Except maybe an Aaron Rogers type addition, that is.
@ Craig: You don’t know what he would have been here. Neither do I. He would have been an instant upgrade over any of our receivers, that’s for sure
oribiasi, If we don’t know what he would have been here than there is no way to say he would have been an upgrade. The unknown is always less than the known. If I need ten dollars and have a choice between five dollars and a mystery box, I KNOW I’m closer to 10 if I choose the money.
I know your expertise in linguistic gymnastics will allow you to twist these incompatible statements into something that fits your needs but I felt like trying to help you out.
2nd you are right anyone can get injured, but free agents who get injured kill your cap much worse than young drafted players. There was a risk that Hardesty would be an oft injured player and that risk was realized, but the impact on replacing him is much less because his contract is easier to get out of. Don’t know Lee Evans contract specifics but I bet it costs a lot more to get rid of him if he doesn’t come back to health.
I feel its tough to sign a free agent to come in and mentor the guys that are here, I think that relationship should work the other way. Your core guys should come through the draft and a couple of pieces should be FA.
Craig, good comment that “….this kind of re-assurance and consistent message that is important out of an organization that relies on fan faith.” I think Holmgren/Browns could have spared themselves some fan dissatisfaction by holding these press conferences more frequently – perhaps after every four games – and re-enforcing that message. I know that I, as a fan, am often left wondering if they have a plan and if they care about what is going on. It was something I thought the Holmgren regime would have done a better job with.
We’ll have to be careful about RG3 and trades — if the Browns are TOO good with the hype, a dopey team (Washington? Kansas City?) may decide to make the big trade with the Vikings just ahead of us at #3 to “stop” us from picking the QB. (Maybe even St. Louis at #2.) Remember, the new CBA makes it less of a big deal to trade up since there aren’t going to be excessive bonuses to the top picks anymore …
Porkchop Xpress needs a PayPal “Donate” button at the bottom of each of his comments.
I have said this before and will repeat: the Browns should have signed T.O. before the 2010 season, and again before this past season. Say what you will about his antics, but he is a good WR and would have helped this core and McCoy immensely.
@Chris – yes, immensely.
@oribiasi – now, you made this too easy. I’ll name 2.
2004-2010 Lee Evans average (only 4 missed starts)
54rec 847yds 6TDs
But, you didn’t talk about Lee Evans in his prime, you mentioned signing Lee Evans last off-season. Let’s take his last 2 years in Buffalo average to better see what he could have been healthy and without a dropoff (though he has been dropping off):
2009-2010 Lee Evans average
40rec 595yds 5.5TDs
Greg Little
61rec 709yds 2TDs
Josh Cribbs
41rec 518yds 4TDs (+1 TD PR)
also, please remember Lee Evans receptions totals from the past 4 seasons: 63->44->37->4
and don’t blame that 4 on injuries, he played in 9 games this season and was targeted 6 times in the 2nd game vs. us. We ended up with 1 catch in the endzone (INT by Brown). Lee Evans ended up with a goose-egg 🙂
@ Porkchop xpress: I’ll give you points for linguistic gymnastics. I do have an M.A. in English.
As for the rest, let’s be smart here. Evans was the featured receiver in Buffalo on a poor team, and he still produced numbers. Not world-beater numbers, but better than anything anyone on our team has done ever. And that’s saying something.
Also, when I said we didn’t know what would happen here, I meant that we didn’t know if he’d get injured here. I think his skill set, even at his age, exceeds any of our receivers’.
Does it cost money to get good players? Well, gee, I sure hope it does. Otherwise, what kind of system are we running in the NFL?
See, I did that without twisting a single word into anything. I’m not such a bad guy after all, you know. And, typically I just use facts to speak for themselves, i.e., yesterday’s posts about point totals for the Browns.
Well then why are we even talking about Lee Evens. Actually I got my point across to you very well in my opinion. And thats all that matters.
Good point, Joe. I’d like the QB misinformation and deceit to remain at about the level that it is now. Keep everyone guessing just enough to get into a panic. (Still want Blackmon, though, if he’s there at #4).
@ mgbode: Good statistics. It would work if you weren’t being selective. His prime is what made him a stud receiver.
That’s like asking me to long-snap for the Browns now. I could do it in high-school but now…yikes, I shudder at the thought.
Sorry about starting the whole Lee Evans argument. He’s probably not the best example. My point is Holmgren/Heckert did NOTHING to improve the WR position prior to this season, which in my opinion, turned out the be the biggest problem of all. Veteran leadership would have helped WRs and QBs. And yes, I’d rather have an old Lee Evans lining up at WR than Brian Robiskie.
For better or worse I can say that I feel good that this regime will isn’t going to cave to the torch carrying masses and change their plan. Every other circus thats come through town has put a plan in place and blown it up almost as soon as the heat started coming. I don’t know if Holmgren will be successful, I put it at about 50/50 right now but I do feel they have the right strategy. I still think the 10 billion dollar question that nobody asks Holms is “Who is going to replace you in 3 years to keep this continuity going?” “Have you started grooming him?” “Is it Heckert and if not will that person have to accept Heckert as part of the job?” Because if Holmgren doesn’t have answers for these questions the whole building process is pointless when we have to change philosophies in 2015.
@ Porkchop xpress: Ok, you have faith. And that’s a nice thing to have and good for you.
After another 4-5 win season next year…will you still have that faith? How about a year after that? When is enough, enough for you?
re: Browns and free agency
I think the Browns are taking the (correct) stance that they don’t want to spend significant dollars/cap space on a free agent unless a) they are likely to be long term producers for the team (i.e. not too old) AND b) they will raise the team to a significant number of wins. Spending money on Lloyd would probably have made this team better. But how much better? Even if he, alone, gave us four extra wins we’re still spending a lot of money/cap space to not make the playoffs. I think this management team sees free agency (outside of value guys like Brandon Jackson was supposed to be) as something you make a big splash in only if it sends you over the top towards the playoffs. Build a foundation in the draft and finish it off through free agency.
Spending your way to 7-9 this season is a poor way to build a team if, in your mind, you can spend NEXT season and get to 9-7 or 10-6.
@7: Lee Evans couldn’t beat out Torrey Smith for his starting spot after leaving for a few games with injuries. I paid a lot of attention to Lee Evans this year b/c of that. /fantasy football’d
oribiasi I know you’re not a bad guy, you’re a committed, passionate fan, and there is never anything wrong with that.
That being said you constantly twist arguments. Here you have belatedly added the caveat that you referring to “We wouldn’t know if he (Evans) would get injured here”. You are trying hard to twist out of the argument. As I said before, since we can’t KNOW if he would or wouldn’t have been injured we can’t SAY that he would be an upgrade. In addition we can’t KNOW if he would have lost a step even if healthy, we can’t KNOW if his style would have fit with a coach who has shown an inability to adapt to players strenghts, and therefore we don’t KNOW whether or not he would have been a positive influence on the other guys, or been any kind of improvement.
You see, because it didn’t happen we can’t know he would have been better. That was your claim, that he would have been an upgrade over the present recievers. The only thing we know about Lee Evans from 2011 is that he was injured and didn’t perform better than any Browns reciever, therefore we can’t say with certainty that he would be an upgrade.
Please just change it to “I think he would be an upgrade” rather than stating it as some sort of absolute fact.
Overall good presser today, my only worry is if Holmgrem would have the humility to can Shurmur if it becomes (more?) evident that he’s not HC material. I honestly can’t tell if it’s hubris or genuine confidence that he was expressing today regarding Shurmur but I really hope he’s more concerned about the well-being of the organization than admitting he made a bad hire. I still have his comments about not wanting to do another coaching search ringing in my ears.
@ori
Well with this regime it will be 3 more 4-5 win seasons then they will be gone and a new one will take their place. We just have very different views of what it means to be a fan. I don’t see anything productive that comes from constantly seeking out the negative and finding any reason to dump on the team I support. If you are sick of it you can quit being a fan of the team just as I can, but make no mistake my blind faith or your eternal scorn doesn’t effect things in Berea one bit. I just think sports are for enjoyment and won’t waste my time being frothing at the mouth furious (I know you aren’t really that angry) over things I can’t control.
Lee Evans. Who cares?/
Can’t we discuss something else?/
Q controversy?
I think we should have signed Lee Evans as well as Chris Chambers and moved our home games to Bedford Stadium.
@oribiassi: how many franchises have YOU built that have gone on to the Super Bowl?
And how many franchises has Holmgren built that have gone on to the Super Bowl?
Until your number exceeds Holmgren’s number, Holmgren gets the benefit of my doubts.
@Garry
I couldn’t agree with you more about Blackmon and RG3. Build the hype and trade the pick to get at least a 1st and 2nd this year assuming you don’t have to slide out of the top 15 in this years first.
Thoughts…..
The silly argument about the WR position…fellas we drafted THREE (3) WR is the 2ND ROUND in the last 3 drafts….more than any other position…..and 2 of them suck and one might be ok given time…so its still a crapshoot… But of course with an elite level QB..MMMMMM
We picked up plenty in FA and trades on Defense…best way to continue right now….a little more depth…a little more talent at a few spots…who knows….this D could be nasty…..Top 10 right now in a division with 3 playoff teams…..
I just have this sneaking suspicion that its all going to fall into place that we are going to end up with Kalil in the 1st round…And would anyone be unhappy about that????
does anyone think that 6 – 10 will be enough improvement to keep SHurmur his job for a 3rd year???…..
The Holmgren teaser at the end was interesting — was it really misdirection, or tacit acknowledgment that much of our apparent defensive improvement can be attributed to 1) playing some of THE WORST offenses in the league this year, and 2) that our run defense was SO BAD that teams just ran on us all day and killed clock time instead of hurling it through the air and racking up points? Yes, we had much added talent, which should only get better, but also some serious concerns. (Haden, for instance, was very good but also showed some flaws). So of those three factors for improved rankings, two are worrisome. IF they could guarantee a play-making WR later in the draft or through FA, and a good O-lineman, I actually wouldn’t mind a top-tier defensive player at #4. I wouldn’t prefer it (Blackmon looks too good to pass up), but I wouldn’t mind it. Anyone else?
– I still don’t get the “carpetbagger” thing in regards to Holmgren. The man has spent his life competing and experiencing success. But now he’s just decided to sit back and cash a check? I don’t know any true competitors with that sort of lack of pride.
– McCoy is a nice kid, and his history of successes gives me hope. That said, he did nothing to earn the starting spot next season, and so we should bring in some competition (FA or mid- to late-round draft) and make him earn it.
– History shows us that great teams build through the draft and use FAs when needed to put them over the top. The Reskins are Exhibit A as to why you don’t try to simply buy success in the NFL.
– Clearly we need more playmakers at WR. There will be plenty to be had between the draft and FA. I just don’t wish for us to use the #4 pick for that position when we have greater needs at positions that tend to be more successful for longer periods.
– Shurmur got a raw deal to start his first season, but he also did very little to inspire significant confidence once the season began. I am willing to cut the guy some slack, but there certainly needs to be improvement in game management (an OC will help) and in locker room management next season. Hopefully he’s learned from his mistakes.
-I want a difference maker at the 4 spot, be it on offense or defense. I think O-line has to be the priority, but if a stud defender is out there, I have no problem with that. Our defense was absolutely better this year, but it’s far from elite. Another lockdown CB, a playmaking S, or another pass rushing threat could be nice. A stud LB is a must. It all depends on what’s there for the taking when our number is called.
has it been said if the new O coordinator will actually call the plays, or is he just there to shut us up and help out at practice?