June 19, 2013

Random Browns Thoughts on a Friday

January 6, 2012 by 73 Comments

This will be boring for those of you who follow along on Twitter, but that’s the way it goes.

This morning I listened for a few minutes as Kiley and Booms broke down (over) the Mike Holmgren press conference and I was left with a few thoughts, namely there was absolutely nothing that Mike Holmgren could have said yesterday for some people.  I would love to know what the perfect press conference from Holmgren and Heckert would have sounded like assuming there is one.  Sure, I bet the first choice would be for that “cash-checking, money-grubber who pines for his retirement in Seattle” to just not be here anymore, but let’s be adults and just go into it knowing that isn’t an option.

On the wide receivers, Holmgren said that Greg Little was a guy that he thought they could build on.  He said that they were going to “add to the pile” or bring in more players.  Can’t you just read between the lines with that?  They cut Brian Robiskie mid-season.  Is that not enough of an admission of guilt on pre-season evaluations of the roster?  Holmgren used the wide receiver question to say that the team needed to upgrade at every skill position on offense.  What else could you possibly want to hear him say about this horrible offense?

Should Mike Holmgren come out and say, “You know, all these guys, including the ones under contract who need to improve in the off-season if they hope to make it through training camp cuts with us next year?  Yeah. They all suck and if we had the chance, we’d replace them all.  Mohamed Massaquoi?  Total disappointment.”

Would that be the perfect answer for the most negative among us?  What purpose would that serve?

As I said yesterday, criticism is an art.  It takes creativity and effort to do it effectively and compellingly.  Otherwise it is worthless and snide.  If your whole point of reference begins and ends with the fact that the Browns don’t win enough games, then I really fail to see any reason to continue to talk about the team throughout the season.  We all can see the standings.

As far as the constant need to bring up five wins not being good enough for Eric Mangini, it just needs to stop. I’ve heard it for probably ten weeks now on that radio show.  The burden of proof for a guy who was not selected for the job by Mike Holmgren running systems different than Holmgren and Heckert are used to with a roster that leans more heavily toward veterans is different than the burden of proof for a hand-picked, first-time head coach with a younger roster coming off of a lockout.

That doesn’t mean that anyone needs to be satisfied with four wins, and I am guessing Mike Holmgren and Heckert had no designs on this season turning out as badly as it did this year.  That being said, blowing a coach out after one year is really stupid.  We already know that Mike Holmgren doesn’t believe in it as a member of the coaching fraternity.  That’s a large reason why Holmgren made the decision (mistake) to give Eric Mangini a second season in Cleveland.  Talk to me this time next year if Shurmur and his staff have only produced four wins.  We will have a real debate on if he deserves a third year at the helm and Holmgren will have some “‘splainin” to do.

On to the draft…

Our own Andrew points out that the Browns could once again be in the unenviable position of just being out of the lottery winnings this year.  The Browns always seem to be a pick or two away from the real “can’t-miss” prospects.  The trade last year took place because A.J. Green went to Cincy.  Joe Haden has turned out well, but he wasn’t quite the same marquee name as those that preceded him at the time.  Again this year, it seems like even if the Browns get a chance at RG3 there is a pretty massive drop-off from Andrew Luck, Kalil and Blackmon.  At least that’s the way Andrew and I see it.  If it falls that way and RG3 is there, I probably trade it to the Redskins or someone like that if I can.

Would I trade three first-round picks for Andrew Luck?  Maybe.  The Browns haven’t had a QB on the field with Andrew Luck’s football IQ since Bernie Kosar and maybe never.  Being married to a Colts fan, I’ve seen too often what it means to have that skillset on the field.  You have a guy who obsesses about the play clock, obsesses about the coverages and actively works to beat the defense staring at him over the line.  If the Browns found it intriguing to bring that guy in to be here for the next decade, I’d gladly get on board.  Tom Heckert would have to switch his strategy for the next few years and be far more active in free agency, but so be it.  On-field coordinator types of QBs don’t come along even once per generation in all likelihood.

As for Matt Kalil, if he falls to the Browns, there is nothing wrong with taking a premier offensive tackle even though this team already has Joe Thomas.  I’ve read over and over that you “can’t” take an offensive tackle that high unless you are replacing your left tackle.

What?  Says who?  Every team needs two offensive tackles.  I wouldn’t recommend taking a second center, but let’s not pretend that just because a guy has a few fewer responsibilities as a right tackle that having one of the best offensive tackles in the NFL playing on the right side would hurt your team.  It just means that pass protection should be ridiculously good and harder for pass-rushing teams to exploit no matter where they line up the Dwight Freeney type guys in the NFL.

This isn’t even to mention the advantage that it should give you in the running game.  Talk about creating a system where you can plug in any guy to tote the rock… Run right?  Sure. Run left?  Sure.  Spend the money on the right tackle so you don’t have to spend it on a running back with a career expectancy of three seasons and multiple knee injuries.

As Joe Lull pointed out this morning a lot of this is just wasted breath because there are so many moving pieces at draft time.  Still, I get a bit tired of hearing some of these fake “rules” thrown about what you can and can’t do because other teams have never done it before.

Doing things that other teams have never done before when it comes to acquiring premier talents onto your roster isn’t a bad thing.  It might even create a competitive advantage that will have the rest of the league chasing for a few years.  The NFL is a copycat league, but the Browns haven’t been the ones being copied since Bernie Kosar started dropping his foot to cue motion.

Would it be so bad to innovate?

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  • oribiasi

    @ Christopher actually an observation would be “hey you don’t seem to like what is being said here so perhaps you should save yourself the agony of reading it” what you said was an order but that’s ok you wont get in trouble for hijacking or anything considering this thread isn’t about me to begin with. Haha

    As to why do I read it? Because I can’t abide b.s. my mother once said “no matter what size container bull$#!t will fill it” the container here is browns stadium and the bull is on the field an in the locker room and at the press conferences and sadly on the lips of browns fans perhaps too downtrodden to know the difference.

  • christopher

    @Ori

    epic fail of a rebuttal. good night.

  • oribiasi

    @ christopher: Whatever you say, soothsayer! I hope you love 4-12 seasons.

    I’ll see you Wednesday.

  • jimkanicki

    artistic criticism bid.

    ori, take note.

  • Matt

    So…does this mean we get 4 days without oribiasi?

  • Chris

    Safe to assume that oribiasis and some others are front of the line employees and never been in a management position. Why do people believe that Holmgren should get up there and throw his employees under the bus? It should never happen no matter what. Im the Manager of a Poker Room in Las Vegas and I will NEVER throw a employee under the bus in front of outside people. We will always discuss OUR problems between us PERIOD!! People need to realize that your employees dont need to like you but they need to respect your position and your choices. Him getting up there and saying this rubbish of yea I screwed up and my receivers sucked it up last year and my coach is the worst thing in the world is not the answers to the Cleveland Browns problems. It will only make it worse. I didnt help build one of the best Poker Rooms in Vegas because I tell everyone how some of my Dealers and Floor Supervisors are the worst in the city. I help them privately and they all work that much harder for me. So please stop this nonsense of thinking he should go up there and tell everyone how bad of a job he and his coach did. Its ridiculous.

  • jimkanicki

    chris/55, please see my post just up in the ‘patience’ thread. it deals specifically with management issues such as planning, milestones, measuring against plan, and accountability.

    i think youre taking one piece of ori’s overall frustration and (correctly) refuting it,,, but ignoring many other management issues that holmgren hasnt addressed.

    it seems clear that holmgren isnt accountable to lerner. the only people who can hold him accountable are fans (like ori) (and me and hopwin). none of us enjoy being the turd in the punchbowl. trolling gets sniffed out here pretty fast, so that’s not it. it actually takes some courage to shoulder the blows ori (and hopwin) (and i) get for challenging the smoke we see blowing out of berea.

    i listed quite a few questions im confused about regarding holmgren’s year in the other post and i wont dive into those here. but i forgot one and goes right to the core of holmgren as a leader/manager.

    it’s from hopwin up above:
    Holmgren was touted as a “football guy” when he was hired. What has he done in Berea to show that he brings more to the table than a “bean-counter” would?
    i’d take it a step further: as a manager, your main duty is to put your people in a position to succeed. once holmgren saw that shurmur was over his head, what did he do to help him be a better head coach this year?

  • Chris

    I do not have an answer for that. I dont know if anyone does. And its a very valid question, but also a very wide open question. Do you mean Players? Do you mean teaching Shumur with his own knowledge? Do we know for sure that he wasnt in his ear behind the scenes helping him with his position and the mistakes he was making?

  • Matt

    @jimkanicki

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have little problem with the stance you (and Ori) (and Hopwin) take, I have more of a problem with the insufferable way that some people interact with the group here. Your comments have almost always been well thought out, respectful, AND lacking most qualities considered “troll-like” on the internet. Others who share your view undoubtedly are passionate fans, and have valid criticisms, but the approach/delivery is what I feel rubs others the wrong way.

    As a final comment, I can only ask:
    What if Holmgren’s overall goals outweigh Shurmur being a success “this year”?

    Holmgren wants to build the Browns into a perennial playoff team. The steps taken to achieve that goal may supersede acts that would improve the 2011 season.

  • jimkanicki

    thanks for the reply. and yes, we dont know.

    im just relating this to my world — if i have a new technologist on my team and he’s not getting traction with the sales guys, there are ways i can help. im sure in your world, you can recognize one of your guys making rookie mistakes and theyre probably easily coached through it with your help. when your guy or my guy gets through and becomes a contributor it’s good on all levels.

    wrt to shurmur/holmgren, i understand holmgren wouldnt want to jump in and help run a practice because that would undercut his coach in front of the players.

    but that streak of no TDs in the 1st qtr indicated struggles in the gameplanning. holmgren couldve spent some time in the film room with shurmur developing the game plan and helping script the first 10-15 plays. (afterall, scripting the first 10-15 was a bill walsh innovation so there probably isnt a better person in the nfl to help with that than holmgren.) this couldve been done behind the scenes so shurmur authority position wouldnt have been compromised.

    based on the lack of game planning improvement it _seems_ like this didnt happen. and because ‘being on the same page’ was emphasized as being a key reason for the coaching change. … it lends credence to the viewpoint that holmgren is … i have to say, it lends credence to the perspective that holmgren is coasting through this gig.

    frustrating and disappointing. that’s all. i know my complaining wont change anything and im sure ill be fired up to see how the draft picks work out. but just need a venue to vent this stuff sometimes.

  • Matt

    @jimkanicki

    Good point about game planning. I looked at Holmgren’s record with the Seahawks (2002-2008) to check for 1st quarter touchdowns and found 6,9,8,9,9,9, and 6. All well above our 2 for this year (note: 6 last year with Mangini). Also this year, we only had 4 FGs in the 1st quarter, leaving us with 10 games scoreless in the 1st.

    Yikes.

    That does seem like an issue that could have been addressed behind closed doors that would help the team without undermining Shurmur.

  • jimkanicki

    thanks matt. i can see where ori walks on the troll line but i _absolutely_ am in no position to talk because ive crossed the disrespectful line myself.

    What if Holmgren’s overall goals outweigh Shurmur being a success “this year”?
    if holmgren really saw something special in shurmur when hired him and really thinks shurmur is growing into his role at the pace he expected, i would be happy. truly. suffice it to say, i havent seen promising signs. (my bias toward cutting a loss early is informed by the RAC experience where, imo, we were two years too patient.) but i expect shurmur to be better next year. alex mack had good things to say about. joe thomas signed on to the program long term. these are major positives and what i hang onto when looking for reasons for optimism.

    my larger issue is with the ‘were building through the draft for a solid future’ excuse on personnel issues. i just dont think a couple short term FA contracts to patch areas of need negates ‘building through the draft.’ and perhaps this is a personal issue, because by providing such simplistic excuses, he’s implicitly saying that he thinks i (and browns fans in general) are stupid. id much rather have him say that we took a calculated risk in challenging our rookies and bench players to jump into impact roles… it didnt work out and we expected as much.

    i suppose it’s a fine line to walk because it’s hard to sell season tickets with a ‘we know we’re 30MM under cap and not as competitive as we could be’ marketing pitch. but the thing is, the season ticket holders already knew this. ironically, he might have sold MORE season tickets with the ‘get your tickets this year when we suck because you wont be able to sniff the good seats when we’re killing it in a couple years.’

  • Porkchop xpress

    @jim, I know you think I’m just “going after you” but I’m trying to understand where you are coming from. Here is really my only problem/question with your thing.
    You wrote:
    holmgren couldve spent some time in the film room with shurmur developing the game plan and helping script the first 10-15 plays.

    Here’s my problem, or maybe you are connected and just haven’t said it, and therefore I don’t have a problem. How in the hell do you know that Holmgren didn’t spend time with Shurmur in the film room? Are you there every day? Did you sit at the complex and watch Shurmur fumble around begging for help and then watch Holmgren buzz by him burning a heater on his way to the Daquiri bar? Seriously, just because improvement didn’t occur why do you make the completely ridiculous illogical assumption that Holmgren in no way attempted to help Shurmur? Because if you aren’t there every day, this and many other complaints you have about the team are based on your imaginations idea of what happens there. Again, really not trying to be a jerk but you really seem to believe that your idea of what happens is what actually happens.

  • jimkanicki

    hi pork, we’re good, thanks for chiming in. im glad you asked because i thought about addressing this, but i felt like i was getting windy.

    how do i know holmgren didnt get into the film room and help his guy?

    i dont know. but if he did help .. with the results being what they were .. that’s maybe more distressing, no?

    im not trying to have it both ways here. but coaching is the primary strong suit in holmgren’s resume. he chose shurmur because he wanted to groom a young coach. (among other reasons sure, but grossi said this was why no play was made for holmgren’s friend john fox.) so if holmgren’s lost his fastball in filmstudy and gameplanning… if one of the key precepts of walsh’s offense (the 10-15 scripted plays) has left him … it just raises all sorts of other questions which leads us down another pessimistic route.

  • saggy

    @oribasi – i don’t agree with some of your ranting here, but you make some good points. wow – that was like swallowing castor oil.

    I agree with Garry Owen on just about everything in his post (17). I would not immediately think Kalil but if he were there i wouldn’t be against it.

    basically, i feel that if you go through the draft since Orlando Pace, you’ll find a MUCH higher incidence of offensive tackles living up to their hype than you’ll find with RBs, QBs, and WRs.

  • Seth M

    I find myself sliding back to ESPN 850 more often than I like. Even though I sometimes agree with Kiley and Booms, the unlimited nagging and rehashing of topics is not a great way to start the day. It is one thing to criticize, but every morning, it sounds like they’re talking about the same stuff. A little more influx of maybe other sports would be desired. Booms is funny though, he comes up with the best one-liners. But overall, the constant bashing ios starting to get old.

    Bull and The Fox are the worst show however, that show is slowly starting to become boring because they really seem to have run out of topics to talk about. Dustin Fox is not an engaging radio host, whereas the Bull is. The Bull (just like Kiley) are knowledgeable hosts and always seem to come up with with angles that are interesting. Justin Fox always sounds like he runs out of things to say after the first hour and then resort to the things he has been saying the last couple of weeks

  • oribiasi

    @ saggy: Thanks for the compliment…I think. lol

    I bet if I had the time and patience to do a real investigation as to the effects of the repetition of factual evidence detailing the problems of this organization I would discover that many Browns fans have serious psychological issues that prevent them from seeing this team for what it really is.

    Nothing better supports this idea than the reluctance to hear the actual things that were said by this coach, manager, etc.

    I often worry that if I didn’t make a comment here that many of us would conveniently forget these facts and start to believe in this coach, which would be sad and I won’t let it happen. He has shown me nothing (and, has shown no one else anything, either) to prove that he deserve to be a head coach in the NFL. It’s sad; this town deserves better than a project coach.

  • attair17ly

    “That being said, blowing a coach out after one year is really stupid. We already know that Mike Holmgren doesn’t believe in it as a member of the coaching fraternity. That’s a large reason why Holmgren made the decision (mistake) to give Eric Mangini a second season in Cleveland.”

    Could you clarify please?

  • Chuck

    For the select few that are saying H&H should have come out in the presser and admitted a long list of failures, consider this…..

    1) Why would mgmt want to ruin the confidence of their players that are still developing? i.e. Little, Pinkston, Lauvao, Taylor, Sheard…By stating that our WR corps is terrible, our OL can’t protect/create holes, and that our run D sucks is a direct reflection of these players that may play an important role (if only for depth) in the future of the Browns.

    2) Does anyone really think calling out your players and coaches in a post-season presser will attract any quality free agents? Or help in resigning the likes of D. Jackson? Remember that the new CBA does in fact force each team to spend above the salary cap floor.

    3) Does admitting the decision not to hire an OC make anything better? Also, does stating that an OC will be hired for next year imply an admission of failure? I surely think so.

    I will state that I am not happy with this past season, but for fans to complain about what is/is not said at a press conference is crazy. I’m sure that we can all agree that showing our hand for our draft/free agency plans would not be wise. So lets stop complaining to complain.

  • Big Z

    I hope I don’t hear “but they went into the year with a new OC” as yet ANOTHER excuse if the offense sputters next year.

  • oribiasi

    @ Big Z: Good prediction. Here’s another: They went into the new season with major new pieces on offense (RB, WR, maybe QB) and hence we really should be more patient with these guys.

  • NickD

    The biggest pickup is going to be an offensive coordinator. I will be floored if we go and draft another lineman. Look. We need playmakers, almost as much as we need someone other than Shurmur calling the plays. If RGIII drops to the Browns, I take him. Then I take Kendall Wright with the second pick. Then I go running back in the second round, like the kid from Boise State, or Washington. This team needs speed desperately.

    Now to contradict my own point, I don’t think they get RG3 anyway, because teams re going to need to trade up with the Rams to get him.

    If the above doesn’t happen, I think we go with Richardson with the first pick, then wright with the second pick, and a guy like Weeden with our second round pick. For the love of all that is good, we need playmakers.

  • Chris

    Thanks Jim. I can see exactly where you are coming from and it makes sense to me. Sorry it took so long to reply damn work was crazy today with the gross first day off playoffs without our Browns. :)

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