Indians’ 2012 Win Total Over/Under Set at 75.5
February 21, 2012Cavaliers’ Rematch with Pistons An Important One
February 21, 2012
Today, Robert Griffin III talked to Dan Patrick. With the amount of rumor and speculation regarding the Browns and Griffin, I decided to check it out. Dan Patrick ended the interview by saying that he thinks Cleveland is most likely going to “go get” Griffin in the draft, but wisely Griffin stayed silent as Patrick only really feigned giving him a chance to respond to the statement. Mostly I thought Griffin came off very well in the interview. He shows a respectful confidence mostly. You get the sense that even though he won the Heisman, he still has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about playing second fiddle to Andrew Luck in all the draft talk.
First on the competition to be the #1 pick, Griffin sounded pretty confident, yet respectful. Sure, he claimed that moving his pro day so as not to conflict with Andrew Luck’s was him being “the bigger man,” but I don’t have any problem with that. There is also some selflessness in that. By moving his day and not going head to head with Andrew Luck, Griffin is protecting teammates by making sure as many NFL scouts as possible are on campus when his teammates showcase themselves too.
Griffin said that sometimes the best player is denoted by the #1 pick, but not always. He said if he gets a chance to interview with the Colts he will “cherish” that opportunity. With answers like that, Griffin really did a nice job of straddling the line of respect, confidence and competitiveness.
When asked if Griffin had a favorite NFL team growing up, he spoke of watching “John Elway and Terrell Davis tear it up” in Denver. Despite the Browns’ history with Elway, it is tough to pretend that you can hold a grudge against a kid who was watching those Broncos teams win when he was sitting at home as an eight and nine year old.
It was a short interview, but it didn’t hurt the cause of trying to imagine Robert Griffin III becoming the quarterback for the Cleveland Browns. Griffin spoke correctly about getting drafted by a team that wants him and wants to work with him to be the best player on the best team.
That part is certainly telling as Griffin is the kind of athlete that doesn’t fit into a neat little box. If the Browns do draft him, they’ll be hard pressed to make him the best QB he can be by trying to force him to be something he is not. Half the negative talk about the Browns drafting Griffin III seems to me to be a vote of non-confidence in the coaching staff after seeing Colt McCoy’s first year in the new offense.
82 Comments
Have I mentioned that it would be patently insane to give up two first rounders and who knows what else to move up TWO spots?
While I am not saying I want to do it, I did make a pretty compelling case that it isn’t patently insane from a historical draft pick value proposition.
https://waitingfornextyear.com/2012/02/browns-two-first-rounders-is-a-fair-price-for-the-2-pick/
Craig, I read that story of yours the other day. But I do not buy that points formula for one minute, and I bet no NFL team does either. It strikes me as just something a draftnik with a lot of time on his hands put together when he was bored.
That point system might — MIGHT — have some usefulness deep into the first round or for teams who are thinking about moving up or down in the later rounds. But I believe it is completely irrelevant in the first half of the first round and certainly in our particular circumstance.
I don’t care how many points are assigned to any particular spot — trading a 4 and a 22 for a 2 is nuts.
The first thing I learned in my trial practice class: Claiming that you’ve made a compelling case makes the case less compelling.
(An observation all in fun.)
“…I did make a pretty compelling case…” Nothing like a good ol’ pat on the back for a job done.
A purely hypothetical question, probably not worth answering because there’s no way it would ever happen, BUT, if the Colts were to take Griffin with the #1 pick, would you trade two first rounders to move up to #2 then? I believe I would.
Trading the 22nd pick for the chance to draft a FRANCHISE quarterback is NOT INSANE. God some of you people just don’t understand how the NFL works. If Griffin ends up being an All Pro, that lost 22nd pick will mean almost nothing. You know why? Because having an All Pro quarterback automatically means you’re a contender. Having a solid RT or Linebacker does not.
That’s a big IF, Jag. Ask the Rams how that franchise QB thing is working out for them.
Ah, leave him alone, you two. When Craig’s going up against a world-class intellect like mine, he needs all the ammo he can muster.
Please don’t mess with my dogma by introducing intriguing alternatives.
The thing people who want to give up 2 picks to get RG3 keep ignoring is that with RG3, the Browns will need to change their offense to take advantage of his terrific skills. Mayock and others have said this so it’s not just me. I don’t think Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and Chilly Dawg are going to change an offense they all believe in. So, I think RG3 would never flourish like he should in Cleveland and will not turn out to be the QB he could be somewhere else.. I wish it weren’t so, but…
Didn’t realize Griffin was an All Pro QB already. I must have missed something.
And IF he isn’t a “franchise all-pro” QB? What then?
What did we get from the Jets when they traded up to get Sanchez? Curious to see if the “points” thing worked out. Seems like we got the short end of that deal
For the record, I agree with your dogma.
Still, it’s a simple question. Don’t jerk me around, Norm. Answer the question. If the moon was made of cheese, would you eat it?
I . . . I . . . YES! . . . I CONFESS IT! . . . YES I WOULD! . . . ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? . . . DAMN YOUR EYES, MAN! . . . Leave me be.
/crumples in a heap on his leather chair
I believe we got Alex Mack, David Veikune, Brett Ratliff, Abe Elam, and Kenyon Coleman. The players included might have nixed the “point value” thing, but I’d say we either got the short end of the deal or just broke even (based on Mack and Elam vs. Sanchez’s dubious value).
But, that raises an interesting question as to whether we might also get a decent player or two in a trade.
Oh, and don’t forget Stuckey!
Just seems like we got a whole lot more when we traded our high first rd pick last year to the Falcons, when compared to what we got from the Jets in the 2009 trade.
Maybe that says more about Mangini making a bad trade, and Holmgren/Heckert making a great trade.
Oh, and don’t forget Stuckey!
Just seems like we got a whole lot more when we traded our high first rd pick last year to the Falcons, when compared to what we got from the Jets in the 2009 trade.
Maybe that says more about Mangini making a bad trade, and Holmgren/Heckert making a great trade.
We absolutely have to improve at the QB position. We can use the first round to get a QB and use THE REST OF THE DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY to improve the team. Honestly, the draft is more than just the first round. We can trade up for Griffin and get other players at the same time.
People treat this as throwing away the draft for just one player. There will be many more changes then just one guy. Ideally, I would love it if RGIII would fall to us. If Heckert feels like he HAS to trade up for RGIII and he thinks he’s worth it, then he should pull the trigger and not think twice.
We absolutely have to improve at the QB position. We can use the first round to get a QB and use THE REST OF THE DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY to improve the team. Honestly, the draft is more than just the first round. We can trade up for Griffin and get other players at the same time.
People treat this as throwing away the draft for just one player. There will be many more changes then just one guy. Ideally, I would love it if RGIII would fall to us. If Heckert feels like he HAS to trade up for RGIII and he thinks he’s worth it, then he should pull the trigger and not think twice.
And I didn’t even have to get out the waterboard!
And I didn’t even have to get out the waterboard!
Do you think Colt is a “franchise all-pro” QB? I certainly don’t. Having watched the majority of the Browns games this year, Colt was out-played by Kyle Boller, the Raiders back-up. Colt doesn’t pass the eye test.
If you don’t want Griffin, then who’s our QB next year? Colt? Tannehill? Peyton Manning??
I believe the chart was created by the Cowboys at some point. I also believe its use as at least a reference tool is widespread around the league.
Here’s where I am (today, anyway): If he’s “a” franchise QB, giving up the #22 overall is a small price, which would be almost forgotten in a few years. But if Holmgrem and his coaching saplings are only about precision and not explosion – if he’s not our franchise guy -everyone’s going to be miserable.
Overall, though, if #4 and #22 is the price AND they’re as sure about that as this subjective player evaluation process permits them to be, do it. Because the WCO is not one rigid system. Green Bay doesn’t just dink and dunk, and Joe Montana under Walsh and Holmgren didn’t either. SI did a nice piece on Pat’s owner Robert Kraft, including his big risks in trading high picks to hire Belichik and other decisions. His conclusion on why they have been successful: to be great in the NFL, you just have to take significant risks. Otherwise, you’re stuck between mediocre and good.
The #22 should be a player anywhere between excellent and very solid. You can get that any year, in different ways. But a franchise QB is the key to a ring. If you think he’s the guy the #22 ain’t nothing. And if they’re wrong in evaluating Griffin, I won’t blame them. This deal wouldn’t gut their draft and they took their shot.
In the past months of internet debate on the condition of the Browns, there are two dead horses lying severely beaten on a well-worn path.
The first dead horse says, “draft a ‘franchise’ QB because that will fix our problems.” The second dead horse says, “no QB will be successful if we don’t find some weapons to whom he can throw.” I rode in on the second dead horse, and I guess I will reluctantly stay by its side.
I still believe that the Browns will be better served THIS YEAR by drafting some talented support for their QB, whomever that might be, than they would be if they drafted a (non-Andrew Luck) QB that has never played a down in the NFL and comes with loads of promise but no proof.
If I’m right, then it won’t matter, at the moment, whether Colt McCoy is a “franchise all-pro” QB (and he just might prove to be so under my dead horse’s theory).
If I’m wrong, and if your dead horse and “eye test” is right, then the Browns’ record next year will not be much different than it was this year. In which case, the Browns can go after next year’s Flavor of the Draft – most likely Matt Barkley.
So, to answer your question, if I don’t like Griffin (and I don’t, if it means trading up to get him), I’d make a concerted effort to go after Barkley (or whatever kid comes with the Griffin hype) full force next year. (I’m still holding out hope that we’ll sign a FA QB this year, though.)
Having said all of that, I’d certainly be willing to take a chance on Griffin if he falls to #4 – but only if he falls. But what do I know? I’ve been flogging a dead horse for two months and kind of stink. But so does everyone else.
This all comes down to whether you have faith that Griffin is bona fide “franchise” material. If you do, then you have to demand that we take him, trading up if need be. I get that.
My problem is that I don’t have the faith or confidence that he’s a sure thing, and I don’t believe there is solid evidence that he is. If we take him, and trade up to do so, and he turns out to be the next installment in the Couch-Frye-Anderson-Quinn-McCoy fiasco of risky mediocrity, then we indeed would have wasted a very good pick (or two, depending on how you look at it) that we just could not have afforded to risk.
trading the 22nd pick needlessly is insane though.
we have the #4, #22, #37 picks in this draft
Washington is closest that needs RGIII w/ #6, #39
why give away #22 when #37 trumps their 2nd best pick? if Washington wants to give up #6, #39, 2013 1st and some lower picks, then well, wish them luck and be on our way.
also, all-pro in the NFL means “the best” because there is only 1 all-pro QB each year. So, yes, if we end up with the best QB in the NFL then we will be a contender because to be considered the best QB we have to be a contender (vicious circle there).
I agree with everyone. 😀
I’m real busy right now. Will we have an opportunity to discuss this at a later date?
It would be patently insane and incredibly short sighted not to give up those picks for potential franchise QB with few if any flaws.
You need to look at it as trading our natural pick, plus a bonus for a franchise QB. Of course, you probably won’t see it that way, but it is the truth. The point system has little to do with it. In all probability it will take more than both firsts because the prize is so valuable. QBs like this come out once a decade. It’s so annoying to hear Cleveland fans cry about their misery, yet every single time this franchise has had success it was because they found the best QB available.
You shouldn’t have to make a compelling case. Griffin’s talent is case enough. Anyone who doesn’t realize this just hasn’t paid attention to what he brings to the table.
There is an good chance Indy could go with Griffin. He has all the same intelligence and intangibles but with better passing skills. The only reason Luck is higher is because he played in a “pro style offense” which has been shown to be meaningless in the NFL anyway.
What? The Rookie of the Year that took them from first overall pick to the brink of the playoffs? He was injured most of last year so he wouldn’t play well. Its just one year in a career.
I would bet my house you’ve barely seen Luck or Griffin play and are simply going off last years hype. You never of Griffin before so you assume he’s a flash in the pan when actually he’s had 3 exceptionally good seasons, he also did it with the worst O Line I’ve ever seen and paper thin defense.
This is false and that’s not what Mayock said. He said they may have to tweak it to maximize his potential which means their bland offense is leaving some of his talent on the table. Shurmur also said great players can play in any system and this is true. His skill set is similar to McNabb and Steve Young, both WCO QBs.
We got Stuckey in the Braylon trade.
There will also be another draft next year, and the year after that, and so on. You don’t build a Super Bowl team overnight, but you do build it around a great QB.
The evidence that he is a franchise QB is literally littering every Browns site on the internet. He has no holes. What reason do you have to think he isn’t? Yes QBs bust but they usually have noticeable weaknesses. Jamarcus’ laziness, Vince Youngs’ head, Harrington’s arm. RG3 does not have any of those red flags. He’s as good a prospect as we’ve seen since Elway. Probably better because he isn’t going to force a trade if he doesn’t like who takes him.
Anyone else think “Henry Brown” might actually be RG3?
Or at least a relative
There is no reason you can’t use the first round to get a QB and the remaining rounds to improve the team. Draft RGIII and then a WR in the 2nd. Boom, problem solved.
The only differences in our points of view is that I think that the time is now to draft a franchise QB and you want to wait until next year. Fine. lets just waste another year piddling around with a stop-gap QB. Quick free agent solutions and late picks. We’ll just be this year’s version of the Miami Dolphins.
It seems to me that your main issue is with drafting RGIII period. Can you give me a single football reason for why he would be a bad option? And don’t just say ‘A lot of other QBs bust, he will bust as well.’ That’s just being lazy.
Hey, don’t tell me what not to say. That’s just lazy. (Not to mention slightly rude.)
How about the fact that he doesn’t play under center? Holds the ball too long? Doesn’t make quick reads from the initial receiver? Isn’t great at looking off his primary and secondary options? In other words, many of the issues we have with McCoy.
You would lose that bet.
Except in pro offenses.
If Barkley was in this draft, he’d be the #3 QB.
We’ve boomed our problems with 2nd round receivers before. I’m hesitant to accept that solution yet again.
As I said, if Griffin drops to #4, take him. I’m pretty much with the crowd on that. But don’t lose that additional pick.
In the end, I’d be very happy if you end up being right. I just don’t believe you are.