August 26, 2014

While We’re Waiting… Extending Asdrubal, Trading up for RG3 and Remembering a Tribe legend

While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email at tips@waitingfornextyear.com.

On the Tribe not having players locked up after 2013- “The reason that the possibility of a Cabrera (or Masterson) extension becomes compelling is that the 2011 season represented the first time that Cabrera and Masterson emerged as players that could merit consideration for extensions in an effort to keep them in Cleveland longer than they are currently slated to be. Perhaps the 2012 season will reveal more players that fit that bill as well as the Indian stand at the precipice of perhaps having multiple players emerge as “core” players. Remember that it was the Spring Training prior to the 2005 season that El Capitan and The aCCe were locked up with extensions for Peralta, Grady, and Lee coming year later. Obviously players like Cabrera or Masterson may be in a different service time schedule in comparison to those players at those times, but with so many young players attempting to establish themselves in MLB and with the Indians history of locking up young players, it’s hard not to see how some extensions maybe forthcoming.” [Cousineau/The DiaTribe]

Interesting look at assist to turnover ratio- “Top Left Quadrant: This was by far the most deceptive quadrant. Classically, this would be the quadrant that you wouldn’t want your point guard to fall into as it contains those PGs with an above average Turnover Ratio and below average Assist Ratio. However, when we look at the names of the players that fall into this quadrant, it is important to look at the roles these players must assume on their particular teams. Of the seven players in the quadrant, five of them (Curry, Douglas, Irving, Wall, and Williams) play on teams that are under .500 while Chalmers and Westbrook man the point position on two of the top three teams in the league. Many of these players’ roles on their respective teams are to be scorers rather than distributors. In fact, Westbrook (2nd), Williams (3rd), Irving (7th), Curry (9th), and Wall (10th) all rank among the top ten PGs in the league in points per game. As a result, they will be looking to handle and shoot the ball rather than pass which leads to an increased turnover rate and decreased assist ratio.” [Maroun/Hardwood Paroxysm]

“The concerns about this dependence on left-handed hitters are not without credence. Lineups need balance, and the earlier point about most pitchers being right-handed is not cut and dry. All bets are off in the later innings when bullpens become involved and it turns into a game of strategy and matchups, as most bullpens are equipped with two or even three left-handed relievers now.

At the end of the day, though, it doesn’t matter – left or right. Nor does the perceived lack of power, necessarily. Being a productive Major League hitter consists of plenty more. The key for this young, often free-swinging Indians team will be thorough, disciplined at-bats, and ultimately, getting on base against either kind of pitcher. In less than two months, the Indians will take the field against the White Sox, a first step towards a return to the postseason. Once they record the first three outs of the season, one of those six left-handed division starters, John Danks will be standing on the hill: Test number one.” [Kevin/Indians Prospect Insider]

“In his 1955 rookie season, he went 16-10 with a league-leading 245 strikeouts. Only one other pitcher in the AL struck out over 160. He averaged 9.7 K/9 in a league that averaged 4.4. The next year, Score was even better, enjoying his first 20-win season while leading the league in shutouts, ERA+ and, of course, strikeouts. His 263 punchouts that year were 71 more than runner up Billy Pierce.

He was so well thought of that before the 1957 season began, the rival Red Sox offered the Indians $1,000,000 for Score—and Cleveland turned down Boston. That’s how highly his team thought of him. The early going in 1957 made the Cleveland front office look smart. In his first four games, Score was 2-1 with a 2.04 ERA and 39 strikeouts in 35.1 innings. In his wins, he’d allowed one run in 18 innings. Even in his other games he was impressive. He fanned 10 in 11 frames in his only loss, and in a no-decision he fanned 12 while recording 19 outs. Not bad.

That led up to the game occurring 20,000 days ago. Against the defending world champion Yankees, Score quickly dispatched leadoff hitter Hank Bauer on a groundout and then faced Gil McDougald. It was the at-bat that nearly ended Score’s career and ruined his promise. McDougald made solid contact with a Score offering and sent a screaming liner right back up the middle—and right into Score’s eye socket. He was bloodied and suffered several broken bones in his face.

Eventually Score recovered, but he would not pitch again that season. Early in 1958, it looked like he was on the way back as he threw a complete-game shutout with 13 strikeouts against the White Sox on April 23, 1958. Then, in his next start against Washington, Score injured his arm and had to change his delivery.” [Jaffe/Hardball Times]

What would it cost to move up in the draft- “Some teams use a chart that gives a point value to each draft slot, with the first overall pick traditionally worth 3,000 points and the second pick 2,600. Cleveland’s fourth pick is worth 1,800 points, Washington’s sixth worth 1,600 and Miami’s ninth worth 1,350. Only the Browns have two first-round picks this year. They also have the 22nd selection, which they acquired from Atlanta a year ago on draft day. That pick is valued at 780 points.

Could the Browns get the second pick from St. Louis for those two picks? Not likely. The value of their two picks is 20 points light.” [McManamon/FSOhio]

And finally: Shameless plug time. “It says an awful lot about a player when an opposing team schemes as if [Kenyon] Martin is going to play key minutes despite all of the unknowns that surrounded his conditioning, mental state and role in his new team’s offense. Factor in the litany of weapons that don Clippers uniforms, and a player who had not suited up in a professional basketball game since mid-December would rarely creep onto a pre-game radar.

Regardless, Cavaliers coach Byron Scott did just that, knowing that one of the most athletic front-courts in the NBA just got that much better. Antawn Jamison, the player forced to contain the athletic Martin, referred to the Clippers’ latest addition as “scary,” stating that Martin’s knowledge of the game, non-stop energy and all-around aggressive style of play can lead to the younger players following suit. “You’ve got a proven veteran who can point those guys in the right direction,” Jamison said. ” [WFNY's Scott/ESPN LA]

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Andrew Schnitkey

    “Could the Browns get the second pick from St. Louis for those two picks? Not likely. The value of their two picks is 20 points light.”

    The Browns shouldn’t even give up 2 picks to move up. They have so many needs to fill that they can’t afford to be throwing away extra 1st round picks. But now we’re suggesting the Browns have to give up even more than just that to move to take a gamble on a QB? Yikes. I’ll pass. If he falls to 4 and the Browns want to take him, that’s fine. But I am so opposed to giving up picks to move for him. 

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Andrew Schnitkey

    As for the PG chart, it’s fascinating that people often try to compare Kyrie to CP3, yet they are on polar opposite sides of the chart. Perhaps Russell Westbrook is a better comparison for Kyrie? Yet I think Irving’s turnovers will decrease as he gains experience, putting him in the Derrick Rose quadrant, and I have always felt since before the draft that Rose is the player that Irving is most likely to be similar to. 

  • Tron

    I have been a HUGE RG3 supporter and I want the Browns to take him very badly… at the 4 slot. As much as I want him on our team, I think it would be a huge mistake for this team to sacrifice draft picks to move up 2 slots. There’s just too many other pieces they need. If they can’t get the QB at number 4, they damn well can take any other number of high impact players they desperately need anyways. 

  • Anonymous

    Rose is the only PG in the NBA that I think finishes at the basket better than Kyrie.  

    I agree that his TOs should decrease as his experience climbs.

  • Anonymous

    I agree.  RGIII has too many risks to give up a ton to move up. 

    Also, 20pts light being the determining factor?  I love the trade chart because it gives us fans a baseline to go from on trades, but I hate when people in the media take it as the final word.  Every team’s trade chart is likely different and sometimes a team is willing to take less if they think they are still benefiting anyway.

    And, even if that is their trade chart, 20pts out of 2600 is only 0.77%.   I think that’s pretty darn close, no?

  • Anonymous

    RGIII has been impressive, but man risking a lot for a guy that can make some big plays, but does not look to me to be the most durable guy.  Like Vick, I don’t know how much pain he will be able to play through.  Although, seeing what people are willing to give up to draft him, I wouldn’t mind seeing him go 4th, and getting a OL and WR with other first/early second and seeing how it plays out.  Let the other teams throw away years worth of picks for him.

  • Mansoor Khan

    There are 5 QB needy teams at the top of the draft. Colts, Browns, Redskins, Dolphins, and Seahawks. 

    I say…

    Colts get Luck 1st overall.
    Dolphins get Tannehill. (His coach was their Offensive Coordinator) 
    Redskins/Seahawks get Flynn/Manning. Not sure which way it’ll go. 

    That lets RGIII fall to us at 4 and negates the need to trade up.

  • Anonymous

    screw that if they want 20 points.  That is probably the last guy drafted in the draft.  Give them our 8th round pick

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Andrew Schnitkey

    That’s a good point, too. “The chart” has made the NFL draft so much more boring because now everyone follows the same guidelines. If you’re St Louis and you don’t want RG3, you’re going to pass on getting the 4 and the 22 just because “the chart says so”? That seems crazy to me. Take what you can get to drop 2 spots if you don’t feel the need to take someone at 2. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_I6423N7UCT3SVURBC55JGXFYAU Bobby

    hardly anyone follows this chart anyways. when was the last time a trade went down that equated to this “chart?”

    Also I disagree with your overall notion that it is an outrageous proposal. If the FO (Heckert) evaluates this guy as a must have QB, I dont care what I takes. Honestly, if they think Luck is as good as Peyton, I would go get that. Don’t give me all the “holes” things. The QB is the most important position bc he has the ball every play. He can cover other holes if hes good enough. I do not want to claim RG3 is that good, but if the FO believes it, I do.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    the ‘chart’ is a guideline not a bible.  20 points is nothing.

    to wit:  the chart said heckert shouldve given KC a 4th, not a THIRD, round pick last year to move up for taylor.

    the rams would fall all over themselves to pick up a our 23rd overall to move back 2 slots.  we’d be damned fools to do it.

    —-

    soft article by mcmanamon.  read like it was written by hank kimball from green acres.

    “.. might be able to avoid..  but it would have to give..”
    “That might be palatable ..” 
    “Much has to shake out. .. they, Miami or Washington could sign .. If Washington goes with a veteran, ..” 
    “..does not always work,..” 
    “It also costs a lot.  But it has great potential rewards…”

  • PBVogel

    “The chart” will go right out the window if other teams (Redskins/Miami) are interested in the pick or interested in bidding the price up.

  • Soze

    It’s not really giving up 2 First Round picks to move up as most people seem to look at it.  It’s giving up your 22nd pick to move up 2 slots.  Take the 2011 draft, would you be willing to give up Anthony Castonzo in order to get a franchise QB?  And they would only do it if they thought he was a franchise QB.  Yes its risky, but so is any draft pick and so is going with Colt for another year and missing out on an RGIII.

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    ‘would you be willing to give up x to get a franchise qb?’

    it sounds so simple when you put it that way.

    but…qb’s picked in the top10 have washed out at a 21% rate since 1985.

    so can we stop with the drafting a ‘FRANCHISE QB’ nonsense?  there are no sure things and we have too many holes to keep giving up draft picks.

    if griffin is there at 4, then you look at him.  it would be beyond asinine to give up a 1st round pick to move two slots.  griffin is not a sure thing.

    [btw, 'RG3' is played out and hacky already. im calling him griffin from here out.]

  • Anonymous

    Would be great to sign Asdrubal to an extension it would be even greater if he did it however I can’t believe his agent would recommend it.  He’ll be highly sought after and even more highly paid.  It’ll be sad seeing him in another jersey but it’s not like it hasn’t happened before.

    Please no RG3!

  • Chucky Brown

    Flynns OC is now head coach of the dolphins, so im assuming he’d end up there

  • Anonymous

    Redskins need to trade oakland for Pryor haha.  Campbell is out there too.  I could see him possibly going to Seattle.

  • Anonymous

    my thoughts exactly!

  • Anonymous

    i’m happily waiting for the replies to your posts on RGIII asking why you want Blake to be our new starting QB

  • Anonymous

    would he be more highly sought after than Travis Hafner or Grady Sizemore were when they signed their post-arbitration extensions?

    (they were considered the best DH and best CF in the game at the time – unless you were a Boston fan crazy for Ortiz)

  • Anonymous

    i think people are noting it’s using 2 1st round picks to get RGIII rather than 1.   and, it’s using 2 1st rounders rather than using FA $ on Flynn and using those 2 picks to get Blackmon/Kalil/Richardson + L.Miller/K.Wright/M.Adams

  • Anonymous

    yep.   i didn’t think we got enough when Mangini dropped from #5 to #17 (we should have gotten the Jets #1 the next year) as we could have gotten a bigger playmaker at #5.

    but, knowing that he could get Alex Mack at #21 and picking up 2 extra 6th rounders to drop there from #17 was fine by me.  better to get something than nothing no matter what the trade value chart says.

  • Anonymous

    Definitely over Hafner not sure about Grady though.

  • Soze

    You assume those “holes” get filled by these draft picks.  Wash out rate is probably close for all positions.  Regardless of players names, if you have #2 on your board ranked much higher than #4 on your board, it’s OK to give up a #22 to get him.  Nobody here is a talent evaluator, but if the Browns feel that is the scenario, I have no problem with it.  And if he reaches his potentional, RGIII will be a franchise QB.

  • Soze

    Agree, but personally I see Flynn being = to Colt.  So if the Browns are happy with Colt, keep #4 and #22.  

  • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

    yes soze, im assuming we will fill holes with draft picks.

    have a good one.

  • Anonymous

    TO hates your plan going forward.

    (But I agree.  “Griffin” it is.)

  • Anonymous

    not sure I agree.

    162,168,182 – OPS+ from 04,05,06 for Hafner
    166,135,164 – OPS+ last 3 years from Prince Fielder
    189,173,150 – OPS+ last 3 years from Albert Pujols

    Hafner was a premier power hitter.  Those guys tend to not be cheap.   Asdrubel had good power for a SS in one season.  He still needs to replicate that power and he needs to improve his range.  I love Asdrubel, but I think Hafner would have gotten a bigger deal and teams would have been pawing all over themselves to get him.

  • BenRM

    I propose we call him RG!!!

  • Anonymous

    Yea but Hafner wasn’t proven he had a couple years then deteriorated, due to health, back to even less then when he started.  I guess you could say the same with Grady though.  But as far as Asdrubal goes forget the HRs I just like the way he plays, both sides.  I think the power #s will probably be a career high but he’s been pretty clutch in a lineup that was like Swiss cheese.  Maybe I’m biased.

  • Mansoor Khan

    That’s very possible too. 

  • Mansoor Khan

    Pryor is a 3rd stringer on the Raiders right now… But I completely forgot about Campbell. I could see him going to Seattle as a back up plan if they can’t get Manning. 

  • Anonymous

    I was so nervous / worried when he was in the supplemental draft.  It was a sigh of relief when I saw that the Browns did not take a shot on him.

  • Anonymous

    Can we call him The Third?

  • Harv 21

    If Griffin turns out average that nickname will be forever spit with sarcastic irony and a pfffft on the end. So sick of that name I’ve skipped most articles referencing him lately. It’s like everybody’s channeling their inner ESPN host

  • Anonymous

    I think if Griffin turns out average on the Cleveland Browns, then there will be an endless supply of Family Guy jokes to be had.

  • Anonymous

    Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about with Hafner.  He had 3 straight years of absolute elite power playing in at least 129 games each of those seasons.  

    After those years, he signed his extension at the allstar break.

  • Anonymous

    I said I was probably biased…

  • Anonymous

    As long as we don’t call him “the #4 Draft Pick,” I guess I’m okay with that.   

  • Anonymous

    fair enough. 

  • Anonymous

    If he is wearing Orange and Brown, “the #4 Draft Pick” is much better than “the #4 + #22 + #36…”

  • Anonymous

    For sure.  I think drafting him is a bad move, but if we do, we had better not trade up to get him.  (I think that’s what you’re saying.)
     

  • Anonymous

    No!!!

    (I just now got the joke.  Good for me, 3.5 hours late.)

  • Mansoor Khan

    Yeah, he’d be fun to play as on Madden but as our actual QB? No way.

  • kjn

    Hafner was also a 30-year-old in ’07 who couldn’t play the field. In his
    prime, he was posting WARs of 5-6 while Pujols was posting 8-10.

    BUT! I actually have to agree that Hafner was a beast at the plate back
    then. People forget how great he and Sizemore really were. What’s crazy about Sizemore was that he was being amazing at 23-25, a few years before most players’ production peaks. If he could have stayed healthy… The ’07 Indians would make for a great subject for the old Marvel Comics’ “What if?” series.

    Drubs has the advantage of being a middle infielder with pop and the market seems to overvalue those types of guys.