June 19, 2013

Colt McCoy Through the Lens of Brady Quinn

Browns fans are understandably terrified of a QB controversy. The days of Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn (not to mention Charlie Frye) will do that to you. I’ve already been on record that I think it is a possibility that Colt McCoy might beat out Brandon Weeden, at least initially, because of his experience in the Browns’ offense. Still, despite all the moving parts and an ultimate desire to win ASAP, some Browns fans are so bitten by the Brady Quinn past that they think the only option is for Colt McCoy to be gone.

They might be right. I might be missing the boat completely on this thinking that this mix of quarterbacks can coexist. It does seem similar to Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn in some ways. On the one hand you have the somewhat smaller guy with questionable arm strength with Colt McCoy and Brady Quinn. On the other you have a guy who fits the stereotypical QB mold in terms of height and ability to hurl the ball like Derek Anderson and Brandon Weeden. And other than that, there just isn’t much similarity between the controversies of the past and potential conflict now.

One of the biggest problems with the D.A. vs. B.Q. situation was that Browns fans kept echoing the sentiment that “we need to see what we have in Brady Quinn.” That phrase became so common at one point that it made me want to scream just because everyone was using the same exact phrase. Is there anything worse than a localized cliché that peppers sports talk radio and website comment sections? I digress. The current situation with Colt McCoy is totally different than when we had to see “what we have in” Brady Quinn.

In Brady Quinn’s entire Browns career, he played twelve games total. When most were clamoring for him to play, he’d only played in three games total. The Browns and Romeo Crennel had probably seen enough in practice to keep him firmly planted to the bench, but Browns fans hadn’t. The same can’t be said of Colt McCoy. Some Browns fans will undoubtedly want to see more and say that Colt didn’t have a fair shake. Holmgren even said it, I guess. But even with that, Browns fans have seen 21 games of Colt McCoy’s handiwork. This doesn’t even mention that Colt McCoy was a third rounder and Brady Quinn was a first rounder.

I can and will argue that a team’s fanbase almost always deserves the right to see a first-round QB play at some point. Brady Quinn is really an outlier for a first round quarterback. Consider this. Brady Quinn is a first round quarterback and he’s only started 12 games in his NFL career. Andre Ware started six, but Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith both made it over 20 before they were washed out of the league. Jamarcus Russell? 25 games for the dreadful first overall pick to the Raiders. J.P. Losman has had 33 by comparison. What I am saying is that Brady Quinn is exceptional in a bad way because even as he is apparently not good enough to play in the NFL if you trust multiple organizations talent evaluation, he has had precious little opportunity to prove to fans that he’s that big a bust. It really is difficult to draft a guy in the first round who is so incapable of being a starting QB that the fans of the drafting team don’t even get a chance to see him play. Controversy is difficult to avoid at the QB position with such an unbelievable lack of ability to even garner a chance.

To be fair to Quinn, a lot of that had to do with the push and pull of Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel in one of the most dysfunctional Browns team situations of all time. Yes, that is saying a lot, but it is true. For all the losses that have been piled up since Mike Holmgren has been here, it is a night and day difference from a culture standpoint at least so far. At least there is no hint of a coach flipping a coin to determine who will be playing the most important position. That’s not a punchline either. There is nothing funny about a cointoss QB rotation unless it happens in a rival city.

Now, as I said in the opening paragraph, I am one of the few people who thinks Colt McCoy can still win the job. I might have already talked myself out of it though because it occurs to me that is the only way to cause a QB controversy. I’ve constantly looked at this thing assuming Colt McCoy gets handed the backup role and how he would deal with it. A more important question is how well would Colt McCoy have to play in order to keep the fans from clamoring for Brandon Weeden?

It still seems to me that McCoy and Weeden are the types of guys who will be able to handle it. It also seems like Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur will be decisive enough to stave it off.

  • MrCleaveland

    Quinn was projected by a number of experts to be an overall top 3 pick. So it turned out that the league FOs knew what they were doing and the draft gurus didn’t. (I admit to generally placing more importance on what the gurus think than what FOs think; gotta fix that).

    Quinn’s problem (or one of them)  is that he couldn’t hit the simple short in route. He continually threw behind the receiver.

    I would still like to see what McCoy could do with some talent around him, but I guess there’s no point in sitting Weeden just to be fair to McCoy.

  • Natedawg86

    Weeden has to be the guy.  Get his feet wet.  He will be 29 this season.  We could get a few decent years out of him, but the longer we wait, the less we will know who he really is.  Plus, we need to know what we have going into 2013 season, not more question marks.

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    “Is there anything worse than a localized cliché that peppers sports talk radio and website comment sections?”

    You mean like “Give Holmgren and Shurmur more time…”?  “They didn’t have an off-season…”

    Hmm…also, “For all the losses that have been piled up since Mike Holmgren has been
    here, it is a night and day difference from a culture standpoint at
    least so far.”

    No, where do you get off saying this? Because Uncle Mike yelled that “It’s different now” so you automatically believe him?  Unknown Staph infections and punters’ slipped discs are pretty similar.  They are both medical issues and up until their occurrences, no one knew what the heck was going on.

    In fact, the idea that “no one knows what the hell is going on” is probably the best way to describe many aspects of this team.  Handing off to Alex Smith, flipping to the recently departed Armond Smith, et al.  A lot of confusion and stupidity.

    I’d argue that its probably more like “the more things change, the more they stay the same” with this team.  Or, “Meet the new boss / Same as the old boss.”  Something like that; its musical chairs for the Browns Front Office/Coaches but the results remain the same. 

    But, then that would be a cliché and I know you can’t stand those unless they are complementary of the team/franchise. 

    Here is an interesting aside:  the only “constant” in this circus is the No. 32 ranked owner in the NFL, Randy Lerner.  I wonder…

  • C-Bus Kevin

    Weeden should start. That’s what you do with a first round pick.

    Really, that’s what screwed up the whole Brady Quinn situation to begin with. He should have started from day 1 but he screwed himself up by holding out (which wouldn’t happen in the new CBA). You only hold back a first round QB from starting if you have a good/average QB in place to mind the store (John Kitna for Carson Palmer). Colt seems like a great guy, but he hasn’t shown the ability to win even 8 football games a year.

    He’ll adjust to the backup roll, and I think he’ll be a good one. The Browns should keep him. I may be making this up, but I thought I saw some stat that showed that the majority of backup QB’s see the field for some significant portion of the season.

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    It HAS to be Weeden, or they blew a first round pick which is inexcusable.  I am guessing that H&H&S are hoping against hope he works out.

  • C-Bus Kevin

    It’s still premature to throw the whole operation under the bus. They drafted a ton of offense this year. Let’s see if it improves. After all, they drafted defense last year and the defense got a lot better.

    I get it…we all get it…you REALLY don’t like these guys. Now that that’s settled, can we go back to talking about the subject of this article and not the one line of it that you have used as a springboard for your daily “fire everyone” comments?

    Sorry if that sounds like a personal attack…not meant to be. Just want to talk football…not parse rhetoric.

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Craig Lyndall

    I don’t have time for this today, but I’ll play for a second.

    Nowhere in this post did I say anything about them not having an off-season or giving them more time. While I do think that is appropriate, as long as I don’t copy/paste it all the time that opinion isn’t really a cliche now is it? I guess everyone has to repeat themselves a little bit. I was talking about a very specific phrase that started to grate at me, not the idea behind it, necessarily.

    Holmgren and Heckert and yes, even Shurmur are light-years ahead of the dysfunction of Phil “Email” Savage, and George “escorted out of the building” Kokinis at least so far. Not a very high bar, but they’re over it so far even with their own problems.

    Thanks for sticking to the point though about QB controversy and the comparison between Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy. 

  • http://twitter.com/Dennymayo Denny

    Brady Quinn sure was dreamy.

  • Harv 21

    “… a lot of that had to do with the push and pull of Phil Savage and Romeo Crennel in one of the most dysfunctional Browns team situations of all time.”

    Weird, but don’t remember those two really clashing with each other, just that neither seemed to have the requisite skillset for their respective positions. Romeo was like Bud Carson, an affable coordinator who could only play good cop and worked best in small groups.Savage seemed to be born with only the scouting gene and was an awful negotiator and management guy. But I’m sure I’m forgetting some clashes between them.

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    When did I say fire everyone?  When did I ever say fire Holmgren?  I said get rid of Shurmur.  That’s all I said.  You conflate the two ideas because its easier and its internet group-think and that’s what this generation is all about.  Relax, C-Bus.

    I’d love to just talk football, but as I’ve said over and over, I can’t abide b.s.  When one’s starting point is empty cliches and nonsense, I don’t see what good the discussion can bring.  If you don’t have a good foundation for discourse in a subject matter then it’ll go awry.

    If Craig’s starting point was “Shurmur has, thus far, been a failure” then I’d be fine.  Since his starting point is “It’s way to early to tell, let’s not focus on the problems but rather on…the…future, because I can’t talk about successes because there weren’t any” it is problematic.

    Again, relax.  Focus on the facts. 

  • TopF

    I am over all BS, lets find a QB give him tools to use and things will have a way of working them self’s out one way or the other besides there is ALWAYS NEXT  YEAR, LOL

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    Wait, because you didn’t mention it here but rather mentioned it dozens of times in the past as the be-all, end-all “excuse” (explanation) for the failure of the 2011 season, it’s suddenly not a cliche? How many articles did I read here saying that due to a missing off-season, etc., etc, we shouldn’t expect that much of the Browns…we shouldn’t be that upset at the various failings of the head coach…we just give him more time…etc., etc.

    So, now because you didn’t mention it TODAY it’s not a cliche?  Who do you think you’re kidding?

    The phrases and idea itself that this coach just needs more time is a terrible cliche that is costing us wins and I’m assuming happiness for the fans.  That is of course assuming the happiness sections of their brain are still functioning.

    Also, sorry for not “sticking to the point” by mentioning and commenting on a part of the article you wrote.  Wait…

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    Or he is making it up…but yeah, to be fair, I’d give Craig the benefit of the doubt on this one because I honestly don’t know how much those two talked or interacted.  I see Romeo as a really nice person, someone you’d love to have as a neighbor, but not someone I’d loan my expensive Stihl saw to because I fear he’d break it and not have a good reason or money to replace it, just that silly smile and nice and neighborly attitude.

  • ClemJax

    I go 100% the opposite way on this one Craig.  McCoy should have been gone the moment Weeden was drafted, and the closer we get to the season with him on the team, the worse this situation has the potential to get.

    That there’s even a possibility that McCoy could be the starter for the
    first few games speaks to how awful of a spot this team is in. If you pick a 29 year old QB in the first round, he has to start IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner. I find the argument that “McCoy knows the offensive scheme better” completely irrelevant. First, Weeden is only going to learn it the more he plays it. Second, and probably more importantly, why does it matter that McCoy knows the offense? Are we expecting this team to actually compete this year? I mean, if we’re expecting early season success and McCoy is going to start, why did we draft Weeden anyways? Is the plan seriously to hope McCoy plays decent enough to get a 5th round pick for him in a trade instead of a 6th?

    Also, I think you’re wrong in that the only way to cause a controversy is for McCoy to start. Let’s flip your last question around a little bit – How poorly would Weeden have to play for part of the fanbase to start wanting McCoy back in there? I mean, a 1-3 start with some ugly play, and the fanbase is going to flip again. If McCoy is gone, then the perfectly reasonable response is “What are you going to do, start Wallace?” If McCoy is still on the team, if asked “What are you going to do, start McCoy?” the answer could easily be “Hell yes!”

    If you play out the scenarios, the potential for ugliness is obvious:
    McCoy starts, plays well – “Why did we waste a pick on an old rookie QB? All Colt needed was some talent around him.”
    McCoy starts, plays poorly – “Why are we wasting our time with McCoy? Weeden is too old to be sitting on the bench, we need to find out what we have.”
    Weeden starts, plays poorly – “Why did we draft this guy in the first place? Put Colt back in and see what he can do with some weapons.”
    Weeden starts, plays well – “Hey, we might have possibly finally found our guy.”

    Out of 4 possible situations, only one has the potential of not causing a controversy. Maybe I’m overly cynical about our fanbase, but given how quickly they turn on people, this is just setting up for some unpleasantness.

    I hope you’re right that this isn’t an issue, but I’d be lying if I didn’t expect this to end ugly.

  • Harv 21

    well, if you were still around these parts you’d know we left Dreamy for a brief fling with Aw Shucks qb and rb. But that flamed, so it appears we’re now chasing Mature and Responsible.

  • maxfnmloans

    the only thing I remember was the kerfluffle after the ’06 season with Phil and John Collins. Don’t remember many details, just that there was a “him or me” ultimatum along the way and I think (keyword- think) that it may have had something to do with Romeo?

    (the “having something to do with Romeo” part may be a figment of my imagination. It happened over a New Year’s weekend 6 years ago, so my memories are fuzzy at best)

  • http://twitter.com/bbo13 B-bo

    Under most circumstances, I’d be firmly in the camp of “may the best man win” when it comes to any starting spot, QB included. However, given that the team decided to reach (and they did reach) for Weeden when they did–at the expense of much-needed talent elsewhere on the roster, and given that he’ll be 29 at midseason, there’s no other option but to start the rookie. And not halfway, either. From Day 1, or you can bet the farm that the fans (and the media) will be all too happy to set torches, because that’s what Cleveland’s sports fans (and it’s media, at least with the Browns) do. If the Triumverate isn’t all in with Weeden as soon as camp breaks–heck, as soon as camp starts–all the talk will be QB controversy. And should McCoy turn out to look more capable? Teeth will be gnashed. And even if McCoy does look better entering the season, how many mistakes would the fans endure? MAYBE one? Then calls for his head would begin. Drafting Weeden where we did means, short of injury, he’s our guy.

  • BuckeyeDawg

    Semetimes worn out cliches have a lot of truth in them.  In my mind there is a lot of truth to the idea that McCoy hasn’t gotten a fair shake.  The statement that he was learning a new offense under a new coach with basically no offseason to study and prepare and very few weapons is by and large the truth.  Some call it excuses and play it off as cliche, but it’s the truth. 

    That being said, Holmgren, Heckart, and Shurmur have seen a lot more of McCoy than any of us have.  Say what you want about his President/GM abilities, but given his experience with Montana/Young/Favre/Hasselbeck, I would like to think that Mike Holmgren knows a good QB when he sees one.  The fact that he has essentially thrown in the towel on McCoy by drafting a guy like Weeden tells me that Weeden is by far the better QB candidate, and McCoy just doesn’t have it.  

    I’ve said it before, I like Colt McCoy from a leadership and intangibles standpoint, and he seems like a good guy…but I think his physical limitations are just too great to overcome.  If the front office and coaching staff think enough of Weeden to draft him as high as they did, he HAS to start.  Day one.  Sucks for Colt, but that’s what has to happen.

  • cmm13

    My favorite part of the McCoy vs Weeden saga…they are still throwing to Massaquoi, Little, Cribbs and Norwood.

    Can a QB improve his receivers play? Sure.

    But the excuse will still bethere if McCoy or Weeden fail. Low talent receivers.

  • Henry Brown

    Fair to McCoy? He had 21 chances, and while the talent wasn’t perfect, he was sacked less than Aaron Rodgers, Rothlessburger and several others. Even if he showed some improvement it would be something but he never really did. “Colt has no weapons” is another one of those local cliches I’m sick of hearing. Thanks for saying it differently.

  • Henry Brown

    In the extremely unlikely scenario that he sits this whole year and starts and wins next year for the next 5-6 years it won’t be a blown pick. Acting like he HAS to start this year is idiotic. It will almost certainly happen anyway, but hypothetically even if he doesn’t there’s no reason to call it a wasted pick.

  • Henry Brown

    Your et al is a pretty small sampling of plays in the sum of plays ran all year. If the offense could execute with any consistency you wouldn’t even be bothering people with those stupid plays.

  • The_Real_Shamrock

    I fully expect the WRs to be the next excuse the problem for the Browns is it’s been a problem for the last three years.  The real problem is their inability to either see it or address it in anything other then vague attempts. 

    We shall see if Weeden plays if he can turn an average (being generous) group of WRs into something better. 

  • mgbode

    “one of the most dysfunctional Browns team situations”

    we are nothing if not dysfunctional (in no order):

    Butch’s Gut vs. Scouts
    Mangini vs. Kokinis
    Savage vs. Romeo
    Holmgren/Heckert vs. Mangini
    Dwight Clark vs. Ability to be a GM

    That is why I am actually hopeful this time around.  Because we don’t seem to have that built-in animosity (granted, it wasn’t there initially with Mangini/Kokinis either, but that sure escalated quickly).

  • mgbode

    very good points.

  • Harv 21

    was not suggesting Craig made up probs between those two, just can’t remember anything but a sense that it was less a like-minded football guys than a shotgun marriage from the era when all of Belichik’s assistant coaches were assumed to possess brilliance just for having worked for the holy man. Remember Savage sticking Romeo with having to publicly explain Savage’s vile Buffalo tweet, contract hold-outs and most everything else going on.

  • Humboldt

     Bode – any theories about what happened to Kokinis? I find that untold story to be utterly captivating. 

  • mgbode

    a QB should start when he is ready to start, not because of where he was drafted. 

    plenty of examples of QBs who did not start “immediately”  you might notice they are almost the entire list of the top QBs in todays NFL:
    Rodgers
    Brees
    Brady
    Eli
    Rivers
    Roethlisburger – did not start game1, came in due to injury early in year
    Carson Palmer – ok, but he was a top flight QB until he busted his knee

    Elite QBs who did start from week1
    Stafford
    Peyton
    Ryan
    Cam Newton (we’ll see if he continues to evolve, but for now)

    excluding Carson who is no longer elite:

    6 of the top10 QBs did not start week 1 of their rookie year
    4 of the top10 QBs did

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    Just because I only listed two plays doesn’t mean there aren’t a plethora more.  I work a regular job and don’t have the time to go over every boneheaded move made by Shurmur.

  • Joe

    Worse corps of receivers in the entire NFL and H&H try to fix it with a 6th
    round fast guy that is a lousy route runner. With a talent deficient team and
    NOT be active in free agency is “crazy”.

  • Jeremy

    oribiasi why is it you never respond to my rationale.  Did you make mistakes when you started your job?  Maybe you didn’t, but I did.  Good thing they didn’t fire me after the first year on the job.  I learned from those mistakes and now I’m a pretty damn good IT guy.  The other point is, who do you think the Browns hire if we fire Shurmur?  Any smart coach is gonna go “HELL NO I’M NOT TAKING THAT JOB.  IF I DON’T WIN IN YEAR ONE I’M FIRED!!”  I know this is a moot point seeings how the team was moved, but I bet you were the same guy calling for Bill Belichek to get run out of town.  Now look at the guy, arguably one of the best HC in the NFL.  Is Shurmur gonna have that kind of success?  Who knows?  Odds are he won’t, but, you can’t fire the guy after year one!!!!!!!

  • cmm13

    Nail on the Head:  “average group of receivers”.  No clear #1 threat.

  • mgbode

    nothing substantiated that I have heard.  

    the tidbits I remember off the top of my head (Note:  all rumor and speculation):

    Kokinis was promised final say over personnel decisions to get him to jump to the Browns.

    First weekend of FA, Kokinis brings in a CB (who later signed with NO).    He had promised the agent he could make the final say on signing him and had a skeleton contract worked out with the agent.   Apparently, the CB had sat around all day nearly unattended, never took a physical and the agent couldn’t get in contact with Kokinis.  When he finally did, Kokinis said that he couldn’t get things approved and the CB flew to NO and signed there.

    Draft day trade was widely reported on the infrastructure of what took place.   Capologist finding the Elam-loophole that he needed to sign.  Mangini having a good relationship with Tannebaum despite media speculation contrary to that thought.   And, the deal was completed with a general lack of draft picks considering the move from #5->19 and a whole slew of veteran ex-Mangini Jets were brought over.   Everything about this deal suggested Mangini was calling the shots.

    Hibernation about Kokinis from the draft really until Aug/Sep or whenever it was that Lerner told him to not come into Berea.   Rumors that he wasn’t bothering to come into work and wasn’t working when he was there were rampant.   Now, was it he was frustrated that he had no power, no voice?  possibly.  was it something else entirely?  also possible. 

    what we do know is that Lerner fired him “with cause” after firing everyone else before him and paying up without being forced into litigation.   something happened to make him mad enough to go after his golden parachute.  but, what that is was never revealed.

  • mgbode

    should note that one theory holds that Mangini was forced to assume the GM role because Kokinis wasn’t doing his job.

    the other holds that Mangini took the GM role from Kokinis and that he shrank when noone (which would have to include Lerner) had his back

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Craig Lyndall

    You can’t reduce me to a bullet point on each topic. I’ve never said anything that simplistic about Pat Shurmur. I use lots of words because I don’t know everything and I don’t want to be pigeon-holed. 

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    I know, I know…your ability of selling ice to Eskimos is only outranked by Heckert, I’ll give you that.

    Try as you might, its very clear to the majority of readers where you hang your hat.  And, you should take a stand, really.  Nobody likes a thin-skinned, wishy-washy writer.  Stand by your ideas all you like, its a mark of charisma.

    It’s misplaced, though, with this coach.

  • Ben RM

    someone should name a blog after that or something…

  • JNeids

    “Nobody likes…”
    I’m pretty sure even the few readers/commenters that agree with you still don’t want you speaking for them…but I’m sure this won’t stop you anyways. You’ll just lump me in with Craig and pin some opinion that I never voiced on me and keep spewing the same ol’ story even if the article had nothing to do with it, then find some way to turn it on me now that I (foolishly) injected myself into the conversation. God forbid we should ever have a civilized discussion about the Browns…

  • JNeids

    Your regular job doesn’t prevent you from writing lengthy diatribes for every Browns article posted.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/HV2SIFP7KDJJAXRJERUIDRNNKY Ken

    wait!!!!!!  does he have to catch the ball also?   you must have missed his rookie season when he had time to take in the offense that makes shurmur look like an idiot……our offense was terrible top to bottom all the way to coaching,,,,,dont give this colt mccoy s fault,,,he s the fall guy…..sorry how many years did rogers get to sit???? big ben had the awsum running game….colt had ?????? wr s   nuthin   we dont have a wr that would make steelers team

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    Yes, oh wise one, tell me what a civilized discussion is, for we barbarians have lost our way and we need help.

    Does a “civilized” discussion involve horse manure?  Does it involve things that aren’t true but rather are wishes of some writer?

    I don’t deal in b.s. and neither should any other self-respecting person.

  • http://twitter.com/oribiasi oribiasi

    We should have hired Gruden.  That was the best call to make.  MOST of the posters on this very site said that it was obvious Gruden was coming to town when Holmgren was hired.  Esepcially after Mangini was let go.  Don’t believe me?  Go back in the archives here and read it yourself.

    It takes a big man to admit his mistakes, especially when they are as epic as head coach.

    Have I made mistakes?  Sure.  But, I am not the head coach of one of 32 NFL professional teams.  I am a credit reviewer; and, if I make a mistake, there are problems, that’s for sure.

    Not nearly the level of problems for a huge franchise like the Browns, though.  Which is part of the problem.

  • Harv 21

    The background to the entire Mangini-Kokinis dynamic, imo, was that Mangini was pursued ardently by Lerner immediately after the Jets canned him, convinced that what he most needed to do was protect his new job. He demanded and received total control (Pioli backed out of GM consideration when that happened), so he’d have no more personnel tug-a-wars, no more loose cannons like Favre that someone else brought in. And Kokinis left the Ravens for what he thought was a promotion, only to find out he was just his old buddy’s yes man.

    I think Mangini would have benefited from a year off after the Jets tothink about what went wrong. And he might be a better coach his next time around after being humbled by Holmgren and his new reputation. 

  • JNeids

    I rest my case, your honor.

    I honestly can’t for the life of me figure out why you still come to this site daily when your hatred for the content, and possibly even the authors themselves, is so blatantly apparent. I’m not saying you have to agree with what they say or even like it, because if everyone did there would be nothing to discuss. But if you’re at the polar opposite end of the spectrum, why even bother?

  • mgbode

    Holmgren made that call.   Gruden didn’t have his heart into it.   a HC who doesn’t really want to do it is not the way to build an organization.

  • mgbode

    that is theory2 from the above, yes.   note that Heckert also refused advances from the Browns that year before coming over the next w/ Holmgren.

  • porckchopexpress

    Holmgren did ask Gruden.  Gruden said he didn’t want to coach but for Holmgren he would.  Holmgren said  thanks but if your heart isn’t in it we’ll find someone else.  We’ve been over this 1000 times, you can pretend that the world exists in a vacuum where all things that you think should happen could happen.  In the real world however people get to choose for themselves.  Its clear that Gruden didn’t want to get back into coaching.  , so killing Holmgren for not hiring a coach who didn’t want to coach seems a bit small minded.

  • Humboldt

    Thanks Bode, this is an excellent summary. I also recall an allegation of a lurid affair between Kokinis and a secretary or some such claim. There are so many interesting dynamics in this story — power plays, psychological complexity, organizational behavior, war by other means, etc. — and we’ll likely never know exactly what unfolded. 

    Anyhow, I don’t watch reality TV or anything so I suppose this  theater of the absurd from Berea is my sort of guilty indulgence in the sporting world. 

  • Harv 21

    yeah, just giving my overall perception of Mangini as a recent type of NFL coach, bright young video geek promoted to position coach to coordinator to HC with lightning speed. A lot of these guys know how to please bosses but do not have great interpersonal skills with players and crave control most of all. And they rise so quickly without having previously run a team themselves anywhere that their first termination is their first chance to reassess their methods. Belichik is the poster child.

  • mgbode

    yes, had forgot about that side-angle.