Kenny Lofton on Chris Perez- “He doesn’t know anything about Cleveland”
May 21, 2012Kyrie Irving Named to USA Basketball’s Men’s Select Team
May 21, 2012One of the topics that has become hot this weekend with all dirt that Chris Perez stirred up this is that Cleveland sports fans are hypocrites. As we all know this fan base sells out Browns stadium year-in and year-out1 with an ownership group that has been almost 100% inept in winning football games since 1999. By comparison the Indians have done far better in their standings and certainly playoff appearances. There is no denying that. So the thought then is that Cleveland sports fans are hypocrites for supporting the Browns while not selling enough tickets for the Indians to be above last place in attendance in the major leagues when they’re also first place in their division. While that seems to make some sense on the surface, I find it to be a red herring.
It made me think of Best Buy. I have been fascinated by Best Buy and their downfall for a lot of the last year. I invested a little bit in them after a bad quarter of sales thinking I could make some money on the stock. It seemed to me that Circuit City dying could only help them and they were sure to turn it around quickly. I quickly learned otherwise, and sold the stock when I heard some scary things from company management. Best Buy was failing as an electronics retailer. There are lots of complaints about them and their business model, but the one thing that kept coming up was that they were angry with Amazon.com customers using Best Buy as a showroom so they could then order products online. They were also clamoring for a fair deal with regard to local sales tax which Amazon skirts in many states due to aging catalog rules. When I heard this, I instantly though, “Uh oh.” Thank goodness the Indians brass hasn’t said anything like this, but it is still troubling to hear it out of the fan base in Cleveland.
So, what does electronics retailing have to do with the Indians and the Browns? Let’s say the Indians are your local neighborhood Best Buy. The Browns are a division of Amazon.com, albeit not a very good one. The Indians franchise is run pretty well for a Best Buy, but they are a franchise store in a business that is far from thriving and faces struggles. The Browns aren’t the best division of Amazon, but they’re part of a larger company that people flock to.
The Indians can’t seem to get people to flock to them no matter how successfully they seem to take care of their business. To me, that means that the problems run much deeper. Certainly they run much deeper than to call Cleveland sports fans hypocrites for how they choose to value their entertainment dollars on an annual basis. Calling out Browns fans for loving NFL football enough to continue to pay for losing is not a good attempt to fix MLB / Cleveland Indians problems with the apparent value proposition presented by their tickets.
That value proposition, in the end, is what drives everything. For all the variables and factors flying around, Clevelanders are finding MLB / Indians tickets to be a much less attractive option. There is no “should” in business when it comes to customers. The Indians are in first place and fans “should” be flocking to the Jake. If they’re not then these are the appropriate questions. What are we doing wrong? What have we done wrong in the past? What can we do better? What should we do to turn this around? Is it the Dolans, Bud Selig, MLB as a whole, free agency, luck, weather, marketing, P.R., and competing alternatives? What can we do to overcome that?
Anything else pointed at the Browns and their lack of success with Randy Lerner at the helm is mis-direction and irrelevant with regard to the Indians. All it would do is further alienate potential customers that the Indians so desperately want to pull into the park this summer. That’s what was so troubling about Chris Perez’ statements this weekend, by the way. When it comes to the booing complaints, I can’t disagree with Perez. But really, telling Indians fans that they’re responsible for free agents not wanting to come to Cleveland in baseball is pure alienation and comes from a place of anger, not honesty.
In the end, honesty and common ground is what we should all shoot for. So let’s skip the false angles that seem like salient points, but really just distract from the issues at hand.
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1 Some sell-outs were aided over the years, but the fact remains that these pitiful Browns teams have never been blacked out on local television since 1999.
67 Comments
The Tribe plays 81 home games (a lot during the week), the Browns play 8 home games (mostly weekends). Lets say I go to 4 Indians and 4 Browns games in a year. I attended roughly 5% of the Indians games and half of the Browns. I may be speaking for myself but I will most likely never have the money or time to go to 40+ Indians games. Not to mention I’ll have to go to a bar to drink but if I’m at the Muni Lot I bring a bottle, a 2 liter, and a little ice, I’ll be set til game time.
Craig I think you hit on something with regards to…”The Browns are a division of Amazon.com, albeit not a very good one. The Indians franchise is run pretty well for a Best Buy, but they are a franchise store in a business that is far from thriving and faces struggles. The Browns aren’t the best division of Amazon, but they’re part of a larger company that people flock to”…
it’s called the NFL. MLB cannot compare to the way the NFL runs it’s game and maybe that’s where alot of the issues stem from these days. That and Cleveland will always be a football town no matter what IMO.
I agree with you to some point. Browns games are like mini holidays where you go down there the whole day and hang out with your buddies and drink.
But, the Tribe is dead last and 5,000 below even Oakland. I think the Pirates would be a great comparison. Football city, only 3 major sports, 1 of witch plays the tail end of its season during the beginning of the baseball season. I have that the population of Cleveland is about 400,000 and Pittsburgh is about 300,000.
The Pirates are pulling 8-10,000 more people a game than the Tribe and have not even finished .500 for 20 years. What gives?
Good analysis, Craig.
A few points:
1. “The Indians have done far better [than the Browns].” True, but far better than the Browns doesn’t mean “good.” The Tribe has made one playoff appearance in the past decade, and it ended in one of our town’s legendary chokes.
2. I am enjoying the Tribe’s success while I can. But I think most fans feel that they’re doing it with smoke and mirrors and that it won’t last. We don’t have enough stars to compete over the long haul. It happened last year, and it will probably happen again. That’s not negativity, that’s experience. That’s why they haven’t caught fire.
3. How many people actually booed Perez last Thursday? Ten? Twenty? Whatever it was, it obviously couldn’t have been many. So what is he getting so worked up about? Closers are supposed to have a tougher make-up than that.
I haven’t attended, watched, listened, or read about a MLB game since 2007.
Why would I want to support cheating?
And yet the Pirates just paid McCutcheon to lock him up for a number of years. Maybe Cleveland isn’t as great of a sports town as it once was, I don’t know.
What drives me crazy though is how much criticism the Indians and their front office regularly receives. Are they perfect? Not in the least. Have they done a good job? That’s debateable. Are they playing from behind on an uneven playing field? Unquestionably.
What can be more Cleveland than these Cleveland Indian teams? They’re a cobbled together team of cast-offs, unproven rookies, and last-chance vets. Against a stacked deck they persevere, knowing that they’re usually outgunned and just about always outspent. Yet they’ve still found ways to make the occassional playoff run.
When that happens to the Indians in the movies, we embrace it and make it part of the collected Cleveland culture. When it happens in real life, we boo, ignore, and criticize it.
Saints and Pats cheated in the NFL. And if you want PEDs, whoo boy. Better stay away there.
College sports have been rocked by scandals. Hmm, better be safe and not watch those.
NBA had the Donaghy thing along with the general perception that the refs can rig games at the pleasures of Stern. Man, can’t watch those.
Maybe just stick to youth sports. Wait, no a coach in my kid’s Pre-K/K flag football team (4-6yo) just last season stacked his team with the best players (including getting a couple of kids to switch in the season) directly going against the bylaws of the league.
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you might want to stay away from sports.
I think that has a lot to do with it. Cleveland just isn’t the same sports town that it was 15 years ago. A lot of fans who grew up with the 90’s tribe don’t live in the area anymore. Myself included. I have a lot of buddies who would be season ticket holders who now live in Columbus and spend their time at Clippers games.
I think it will take a consistent product (i.e. playoff team) for two or three years in a row, plus an influx of free agents before you consistently see 30,000+ a game.
And say what you will about MLB’s complacency to PEDs in the 90’s-00’s, at least they now have very serious policies and procedures in place to catch users along with stiff punishments.
‘Cutch signed 2yrs past his arbitration.
Asdrubel signed 1yr past his arbitration.
yeah, they got 1 extra year out of their entering his prime star.
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also, of note, the Pirates took their business model directly from the Indians FO.
Over the last dozen years, the Pirates haven’t spent more than $60M annually on payroll. We’ve exceeded that eight of the last twelve.
Attendance isn’t the only issue here though. It’s also the amount of vitriol and spite from one-time fans.
In hindsight, the 90’s were really an abnormality. The baseball economics of those times, in addition to the excitement created by the Jake, established expectations that are just completely unrealistic in the 2000’s and on. Were we ever a baseball town? Or was it just enthusiasm created by a winner?
Ding, ding, ding! This is it. I’ve come to the conclusion that we LOVE football but the Cavs and Tribe only move the needle when they have superstar teams (90’s Indians and LBJ’s Cavs). We like to think we are these incredibly die hard fans and but maybe we’re not.
i really think we have two issues.
one is that attendance is not good. i see that as a completely separate one from perez’s comments and to mix the two together creates confusion.
the second and primary issue as concerns perez is the ‘alienate your customer’ problem. rather than a bestbuy/amazon parallel, i’d suggest General Motors. let’s say buick won all sorts of awards for design and had better acceleration and handling while consuming less gas than more expensive foreign imports. would general motors adopt a strategy of ‘you’re buying less of our cars than hyundai and it’s an embarrassment? making cars is supposed to fun.’ NO THEY WOULD NOT. furthermore is a car dealership went to the local press with such a statement, the execs in Detroit would not applaud that dealership for simply having exuberance in wanting all americans to share in the quality of buick.
i dont know why this is hard.
They hired ex-Indians so it would only seem reasonable. Maybe it’s the ballpark, PNC is a great place.
thanks for letting us know.
why would you waste your time reading this article and commenting on it if you dont pay attention to MLB.
I think this hits on a good point. I grew up just outside of Cleveland, and would love going to tribe games, but when it came time for me to graduate and get a job there just were none in Cleveland. I had to move to Columbus, and now its just not as easy to get to 4 or 5 Tribe games a year. I think the economy in Cleveland has a big impact on the number of people around with excess money to spend on going to ballgames.
a different take: the Indians may be doing nothing wrong this particular season. “First place” can’t be expected to create a pavlovian response in a fanbase no matter the circumstances, as it might have done in the 1970s when every local team was horrible and fans desperate. [Like when locals went nuts during the so-called “Miracle at Richfield” and screamed at games like they were being stabbed]. There may be no marketing strategy, maybe only a 15 game winning streak, dramatic endings and sudden world series hope that draws whatever size crowds in mid-may that Chris Perez thinks he deserves.
Fans here aren’t stupid. First place in mid-April means something, it means something else on June 1 and something far different on September 1. This reality didn’t stop everyone from pouting “we’re in first place, where are you people?” This weekend the team was playing fine, the weather was fine, and lo and behold the crowds were fine.
Craig is right, the Indians are not the Browns in local eyes. That means the Amazon/Best Buy analogy works if you say what’s being sold is simply pro sports, but it’s really not the same product here, any more than Severence Hall and House of Blues are peddling the same stuff. Indians fans want something magical, something feel-good, not here’s your dinner, don’t worry about what’s in it, it’s nutritious, eat it. The Browns are like perpetual dessert in this town, and their fans will scarf down anything and make up reasons why it’s delicious even while it’s coming up on them.
This has nothing to do with anything, but did anyone see that Michelle Obama was at the Prog today? http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2012/05/first_lady_michelle_obama_than.html
Here’s a quote from the article on cleveland.com: “Volunteer Craig Lindell, a retired marketer from the eastern suburb of Solon, described the first lady as ‘very warm.'”
I’m surprised to hear that the Pirates have much better attendance.
I’m not sure it has anything to do with the Indians, Dolan, Cleveland fans, or the MLB. For whatever reason, going to a Tribe game isn’t a “thing” anymore. For example, going to a Cubs game is a “thing.” (Same with a Pirates game, now that I think about it). Indians games aren’t a cultural event they way they are in some other places.
I wasn’t really paying attention in the 90’s, but I’ll presume it was more of a “thing” back then. I don’t know how you get that “thing” back. I guess that’s what they pay people the big bucks for.
No slight to the Jake, but that’s the nicest park I’ve ever seen a game in. Except, of course, for being full of Yinzers who are probably Steeler fans as well
I know I remember nights at Municipal where the announced attendance was in the 5k range, and those figures were only valid if they were counting all the concessionaires and stadium employees.
But we had a ball at those games, probably because we could run around like maniacs (which, at 7 or 8, we were) and act like we owned the place.
I don’t remember Doug Jones whining.
Did Mrs. Obama rip Cleveland Democrats because only a few hundred supporters turned out and because a couple Republicans booed?
I remember being a little kid and going to college ID nights. They’d draw a whopping 12K fans, but they were the most ridiculous, raucous games ever. Maybe this is nostalgia speaking, but it actually seemd like more fun when nobody cared.
And I bet Doug Jones didn’t make $4.5M in his time here.
Stiff punishments on paper. It seems routine that 100-game suspensions are cut in half for funsies. Why does Manny Ramirez get a pass? It looks like the same thing may happen for Mota.
Well, glad then that you took time out of your day to allegedly read an article and comment on something that you have no interest or competence in discussing. Awesome.
Wait, did Cleveland magically get out of the bad economy? Has no one else said that?
The bleachers are usually pretty full… the rest of the stadium not as much. You want more people to come and spend 7.75 on a beer or $5 for a burger, lower the ticket prices. This isn’t NY. Im not going to pay 31.50 to sit in right field. I will pay 9.00 to sit in the nosebleeds and then walk around or sneak to better seats.
my family and a few other friends would bring paper grocery bags full of food and setup a buffet in the RF corner or bleachers. not like we had to fight for room and they allowed you to bring in as much food as you wanted.
ah, memories.
Harry Doyle: In case you haven’t noticed, and judging by the attendance you haven’t, the Indians have managed to win a few here and there, and are threatening to climb out of the cellar.Jake Taylor: I play for the Indians. Chaire Holloway: Here in Cleveland? I didn’t know they still had a team! Jake Taylor: Yup, we’ve got uniforms and everything, it’s really great!
Not to still be referencing Major League, 23 years after the fact, but this has been the Indians thing for a while. I’m sure if they just continue to win, everything will be fine.
Frowns hit this topic out of the park earlier today…go read it if you haven’t yet.
And for those still holding on to the ’90’s it’s beyond time to let go. To paraphrase the swarmy Pitino:
“Albert Belle ain’t walking through that door!
Jim Thome ain’t walking through that door
Kenny Lofton ain’t walking through that door!
Mike Hargrove ain’t walking through that door!”
but Sandy Alomar Jr. walks through that door everyday (as a coach) 🙂
I’m just fed up with the business model of the MLB as a whole. Even when the Indians are winning, it’s hard to get attached to them because you know that any player that gets good is going to be in pinstripes within a couple years. I don’t blame the Indians or the Dolans for this. It’s just the way it is.
You are right, this is not NY and neither are the prices:
NYY avg. ticket price $51. premium ticket $305. avg. family of 4 = $325
Cle avg. ticket price $20. premium ticket $66. avg. family of 4 = $171
7th cheapest avg. ticket price in MLB. Looks like the premium tickets are a bit higher than they could be (compared to other similar markets). That just drags that avg. price higher though.
I think it’s funny that we have among the lowest priced beer and highest priced soft drinks.
http://fancostexperience.com/pages/fcx/blog_pdfs/entry0000017_pdf005.pdf
I went to the Cubs game Saturday night. My ticket (upper deck) was $80 face value. Living in Chicago I can tell you that most Cubs ‘fans’ could care less about what actually happens on the field. Check out the stadium exodus after last call in the 7th no matter what score. The draw of the game is the stadium/surrounding neighborhood (unmatched IMO), and the fact that there are about a million good looking young people there (both guys and gals depending on your preference).
I remember the Jake in the 90’s. Absolutely rocking. Same kind of electric atmosphere except the team was far more entertaining (while the surrounding bars less enticing). I think there’s a self-sustaining critical mass in attendance that makes going to the games the thing to do irregardless of the quality of the team. Unfortunately 15k/gm isn’t going to cut it.
Re: Pirates – i’m guessing there’s still the new-ballpark effect going on. Check out Baltimore and see where they’ve regressed to. http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
yeah! every friggin’ couple of years. unless their names are Hafner or Sizemore (but they got hurt!)
oh, and by “a couple of years” you mean 6-7 years. not counting extra ones if they sign past their arbitration years (like Asdrubel just did).
not like the Browns and Cavs who routinely have a bunch of players on the team for 10-15 years 🙂
Victor Martinez- 6.5 seasons
CC Sabathia – 7.5 seasons
Cliff Lee – 6 seasons
You are asking for a hell of a lot. 3 years in a row of playoffs is hard enough for a small market team, but they’re definitely not going to be able to blow money on free agents year after year. Sorry, go root for the Yankees if you need to be assured a winner before you can get interested.
Not a great comparison. It’s not just that people are buying more hyundai’s, its that they are also bashing general motors (despite the superior product) at each and every turn. Yes, GM should take the high road, but you could see why they would get quickly infuriated and make a comment.
The crowds were not “fine”. They were better than earlier in the season, but everything lined up perfectly, and they still got average sized (compared to the league) crowds. First place team, perfect weather, plenty of popular promotions, and an opponent that people rarely get to see. That should be nearly packed. On Sunday, the Indians 23k, a good number for them, was the lowest in the majors that day. Even KC and Tampa beat them. That’s not fine. We’ve only tricked ourselves into thinking 23k is fine.
Yeah, and once they become bona-fide superstars they’re on the way out. Maybe if they stuck around we might win something once in a while, instead of hoping and praying that a motley crew of castoffs and prospects pulls it together long enough for a run or two.
Hafner and Sizemore were as bonafide as they come when they signed on long term.
Is Asdrubel not bonafide? Santana?
If you want to be able to sign every stud prospect that comes up through the system for 10-15 years, then you are sadly rooting for the wrong team. MLB doesn’t work like that. But, again, how many sports do you get guys for more than the 6-8 years that we have our stars?
You really can manipulate stats any way you want huh? Come on MG I can’t let you get away with that post, now can I?
Cliff Lee’s 7 seasons with us
2002 – late call up. 10.1 innings on the year
2003 – up and down. 52.1 innings on the year
2004 – 5.43 ERA in 179 innings
2005 – 3.79 ERA in 202 innings
2006 – 4.40 ERA in 200.2 innings
2007 – 6.29 ERA in 97.1 innings (injury plagued season)
2008 – 22-3 record 2.54 ERA in 223.1 innings AL CY Young
2009 – Traded to Philly
CC’s 7.5 seasons
2001 – 4.39 ERA in 180.1 innings
2002 – 4.37 ERA in 210 innings
2003 – 3.60 ERA in 197.2 innings
2004 – 4.12 ERA in 188 innings
2005 – 4.03 ERA in 196.2 innings
2006 – 3.22 ERA in 192.2 innings
2007 – 3.21 ERA in 241 innings AL CY Young
2008 – Traded to Milwaukee
V-Mart’s 7.5 seasons
2002 – .281 AVG 1 HR 8 RBI in 12 games
2003 – .289 AVG 1 HR 16 RBI in 49 games
2004 – .283 AVG 23 HR 108 RBI in 141 games
2005 – .305 AVG 20 HR 80 RBI in 147 games
2006 – .316 AVG 16 HR 93 RBI in 153 games
2007 – .301 AVG 25 HR 114 RBI in 147 games
2008 – .278 AVG 2 HR 35 RBI in 73 games
2009 – Traded to Boston
Yeah so we had our last big three stars for “6-7 years” as you put it. Many of those years were when these players were prospects and either late season call ups or in between MLB and AAA for the season.
When they finally did make the MLB team full time we dealt with some up and down inconsistent years also, as you will with any young prospects.
The major market teams don’t want to trade for our inconsistent prospects. They wait until they get good enough to win silver slugger awards or CY Young awards. We seem to get about 2-3 good seasons out of our all star players before they’re gone. And THAT is what makes Indians fans so angry. WE bring the players up. WE grow them. WE develop them. WE see their struggles and their mistakes. But THEY only see them for their prime years. Their best years. When they start to fade they dump them off and trade for or sign another player about to enter his prime years.
6-7 years my ass.
Please see my above post. Those are some misleading stats to put out.
WE bring the players up. WE grow them. WE develop them. “WE see their struggles and their mistakes. But THEY only see them for their prime years. Their best years. When they start to fade they dump them off and trade for or sign another player about to enter his prime years”
Wrong, when they start to fade, the big market teams pay bloated salaries for terrible players (at that point) or pick up most of the salary to trade them to another team. Something the Indians cannot do.
Didn’t realize our 23k on Sunday was the major’s lowest. If that’s the case – even if it was the 5th lowest – I agree, it’s not fine yet.
itw as KJN that used those 3 guys, I wouldn’t have included Cliff Lee who was too up and down, but I’ll play along and appreciate you keeping me honest on it:
Cliff Lee had struggles when he first came up but he did “win” games (I hate the stat, but it just showed how inconsistent he was back then. he was “on” some days and completely “off” others).
we really only had Cliff Lee for 2.5 ‘elite’ years (2005 & 2008 & 2009). he was an innings eater backend starter for 2 other years (2004 and 2006).
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CC was another story. He was an innings eating horse for all 7.5 years. He also was a SO-machine for most of them as well, which made him a defacto ace even when he was struggling with his command early.
2003,06,07,08 (1/2 yr) he was what nearly any team would want at the top of it’s rotation. He was still a #2 / #3 guy the other years. that is amazing consistency and reliability out of a pitcher for his 7.5years.
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Victor had an amazingly consistent OPS+ between 120-135 in every season other than an injury-plagued 2008.
so, we had him as a star for 4.5 seasons. but, that injury plagued year could happen to anyone, so I think you have to count it since it’s not like it was in his “learning time.” That makes it 5.5 years from Victor.
correct.
and also, another mention that we do get some of those prime years as well.
The problem is that Lopez just doesn’t understand. I like him and I want him to stay but Cleveland has been shrinking in people and economy the last 10 years or so. The way baseball is set up where teams can spend so much and we spend so little means we are losing our players we become attached to. Then on top of it the salaries of baseball players because of deep pocket owners is ridiculous which is is a turn off to pay ticket prices for these people to get their millions. I do think out of all the Cleveland teams the Indians have done the best for what they have to work with. They have made bad trades but they have also made great trades so in the environment of baseball today I think the Indians have not done terrible. Cleveland draws from less than a 600,000 people locally and these other teams have like 4 or 5 million to draw from. With this being said hopefully attendance goes up the more they win.
Case in point, as an Indians fan I am not really intersted in the back have of Choo’s career at a bloated price. Let the Yankees go ahead and do that (that’s what I said when he was performing).
HOWEVER, if they want to play this game this way, they have to keep drafting well. Have to.