NFL News: Browns’ Scott Fujita Appeals 3-Game Suspension
May 7, 2012Box Score: Indians 8, White Sox 6
May 7, 2012It is a topic that won’t go away. The Indians are currently in first place in the standings and last in attendance. What gives? Can Cleveland support three teams anymore? All these topics and then some have been top of mind ever since the NFL draft stopped flooding local talk radio phone banks and web servers alike. I haven’t really weighed in on it yet because frankly I find it wholly depressing all the way around. I am a bit embarrassed by it as a fan. I am indignant as well because I don’t think fans should be judged harshly on justifiable actions. Somewhere between these two competing emotions I find the whole topic of conversation completely exhausting, but I have the answer. The Dolans don’t need to spend more money. They need to at least look like they’re fighting the system that leaves them without the ability to spend just as much.
This time of year teams like Baltimore and Cleveland can occasionally thrive. Sometimes a team will maintain this level of quality all the way until the playoffs, but more often than not the quality provided by deeper pocketed ownership usually rises to the top over 162 games. That’s where being a baseball fan is so irrational. It is fun to laugh and point at big markets when they struggle, and then flip the switch to complaining about inequities when a high percentage of those big spenders qualify for the playoffs. It is predictable and I long for the year where I not only recognize that, but break the cycle. Yet, here I am.
The Dolans are only half to blame for the lackluster attendance at Indians games. When fans blame the Dolans for trading away C.C. Sabathia, Cliff Lee and even Victor Martinez, it isn’t because they have no concept for market dynamics. I was on board with the C.C. Sabathia deal when the Indians did it. I talked myself into it because I knew the market realities and I was in favor of anything other than seeing another Manny Ramirez caliber player teasing the fans on the way out of town to make top dollar.
Over time I turned on moves like that, though. It wasn’t because Michael Brantley and Matt LaPorta haven’t lived up to expectations. That’s the nature of making trades. Just because a trade doesn’t work out on the back end doesn’t mean it was a bad idea. If you were in favor of it at the start, you shouldn’t turn on it later because the risks didn’t pay off. What happened here is a confluence of things. The Indians traded away two Cy Young award winners and the heart and soul of the team, Victor Martinez, while simultaneously partaking in the only major American sport not to fight a labor battle against the players.
If Dan Gilbert owned the Cleveland Indians, he could have made all the same moves as the Dolans and had bigger results at the box office and in the stands. I don’t think Cleveland fans are delusional enough to think that just because Dan Gilbert can afford to do it that he should pay a Prince Fielder if he owned the team. The difference is that you could expect Dan Gilbert to fight the good fight to try and fix the sport. Gilbert was the one who wrote an email to the NBA over the Chris Paul trade. I’m projecting here a bit, but even if Dan Gilbert decided that deficit spending was unjustifiable in baseball, you’d have to think he would fight tooth and nail against the system.
This is actually probably why Dan Gilbert would never be allowed to purchase a Major League Baseball team, but that’s another topic of conversation. Notice that Mark Cuban hasn’t been successful in any of his various flirtations with baseball teams either? Mavericks need not apply. (Pun intended.)
That’s what makes the attendance conversation so difficult in Cleveland. It isn’t just that the Dolans traded away all the best players the team had over the last few years. A lot of us have been able to see through the pain and tears of seeing Victor Martinez go that it was better for the team considering the market and the league. Without the attempts to change the game, though, the Dolans miss out on a massive opportunity in the market they have available to them. It isn’t just about wins. It isn’t just about selling the game day experience. The Dolans are doing a decent job in those departments all things considered.
It’s the “all things considered” portion where they aren’t leading the information campaign against the league of which they are a member. People love Dan Gilbert’s Cavaliers even as they distrust David Stern and the large majority of NBA stars. Dan Gilbert bites the hand that feeds him and tells them that the food needs to get better. The Dolans are seemingly good little boys that take what’s given and do the best they can to spruce it up for the fans. It’s O.K. to serve Cleveland Indians baseball and expect people to show up, but don’t try to tell me that the playing field is fair.
The Indians need to stop mentioning the size of the Cleveland market and market dynamics so much and get a little indignant at the league that allows such payroll disparities. At least send out a letter saying that the state of the labor deal stinks and needs to move toward a salary cap. At least this would create an “us against the world” mentality instead of fans so closely associating the Dolans with all the ills of Major League Baseball as a whole. It’s so strange for a team that has been so good at sales and fan experience that they missed the boat on this part of the sales job. It’s like when Howard Stern spends months on end railing against his bosses and company that pays him. Even when he’s wrong his fans think he’s right. It becomes a rallying cry. It might just put more fans in the seats too.
87 Comments
People are focusing too much on the draft slots. Eventually the big markets (Boston already started doing this) were going to overpay slot too, and at a much higher level than Cleveland or Tampa ever could.
But the revenue sharing is more than a slight bump. Over the next few years, the Yankees will not only not be adding payroll, they will cut about $20 million. And revenue sharing is fixed so that it will only affect the large market teams. There were some issues with it beforehand where some teams like Philly didn’t have to pay anything. People seem to be expecting one fell swoop, as if its easy to just throw in a salary cap. It’s not, but changes like this are.
I recomend the first come first serve table seating in Right Field, unless I’m going to be at the game then stay the hell away 🙂 Really good sightlines, plus you have a whole freaking table not just a swishy seat, and you can buy the cheapest upper deck seat, show up 40 minutes early and get a great seat… wait why am I sharing this information? Stay away those tables will give you herpes!
That’s not really true though. If they were so good at Marketing and PR why does everyone dislike the Dolans? It is exactly what the article/post is talking about; due to the perceived lack of effort by the Dolans the public perception for them is off negligent uncaring owners. Personally, I don’t know if that’s true but they certainly don’t do anything to fight that perception (that I see).
Hosting “Winter Days” and having a “Social Media” area aren’t exactly full fledged MarComm and PR Strategies. Plus I’m not referring strictly to the Indians MarComm and PR; I’m talking mostly about the Dolan’s…
So just stating “you’re wrong” isn’t exactly a definitive argument. Your opinion is valid but I don’t agree with you.
but they weren’t yet for whatever silly reason.
hopefully the revenue sharing helps adjust things, but I am a bit skeptical about that portion. we’ll have to see how things actually play out with it. hopefully it does.
no it hasn’t though. it’s the same strategy that the Indians have been using since Sandy, Baerga and Lofton.
teams control their young players for 6+ MLB service years (tricks can be played). the Indians try to buyout these years early for deemed stars in trade for a year or two of FA.
Sizemore, Hafner, Choo, Carmona, etc. have been with the team for years and years now.
a few of them? CC is making $23mil/year. Lee over $20mil/year. Victor is making a ton. That’s a few and it’s nearly our entire payroll for this year.
Hafner makes $13mil/year. Sizemore was making $10+mil/year. Without those contracts, maybe we do sign one of the CC/Lee/Victor trio instead of trading them. It’s hard to say that had no effect (also Westbrook was on the hook for $10mil/year at the time and injured for most of it)
Maybe we sign Martinez, maybe. The major difference between Hafner/Westbrook and Sabathia/Lee is that the former actually negotiated in good faith, while the latter two were looking to hit it big in FA. We were never going to be able to outbid the bigger markets for Sabathia or Lee. If we matched 23-24 mill/year, do you think the Yankees or Phillies just go “ok we give up”?
The only guy traded away that had any interest in staying here was Martinez, but at that point we already had our catcher of the future, and were able to get Masterson and Hagadone in the deal.
I only watched on TV tonight. I hope you can at least give me a partial stamp on my Tribe Fan card.
The Indians do a nice job marketing the team. They actually seem to embrace social media better than most sports franchises. One of the biggest things I see that makes them seem small time, is the television broadcasts. STO’s entire game presentation is pretty blah. The graphics are cheesy, and the broadcasters a terrible. If you have the MLB.TV app, and watch other teams, their TV is almost universally better.
That is most fans first point of contact with the team. Fixing the TV side would make the entire operation seem a little more professional. Im not saying it would bring the fans back by the thousands, but it couldn’t hurt.
You can market and PR well and people will still come up with plenty of excuses not to like you. Check some of the comments from the previous article or listen to sports talk. People are warping history to find reasons to dislike the Dolans. The best PR team in the world won’t be able to fix that.
When the Dolans are silent, they are uncaring. When they speak out, they’re egotistical, greedy, liars. The only way they can win is if this team goes on a 90s-esque run.
Because you’re the only one that likes ownership spending $10M less on payroll than was spent 10 years ago, back in the days when the Yanks only spent $93M?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
And I’ll gladly wait for you to offer realistic marketing and PR strategies that they haven’t tried that would certainly work. The organization has tried just about everything, but they can’t overcome the battle that it takes a perfect storm to get fans to the park (new stadium, best run in team history, terrible competition within the division, no browns for a short period)
the Indians do make a fair amount of mis-steps in their PR and marketing. the big red herring was not realizing how poorly the CC and then Lee/Victor trades would be taken by the general public. I think they thought they would get smoothed over quicker than has been the case.
I am not sure what they could have done to have prepared the fans for it better (if it had to be done), but it certainly has been an issue since.
Have you sat in the Upper Reserve at Progressive Field before? I’ve been to two games so far this year and I personally love those seats. You’re right above home plate (or a little off to the left/right…section 553 was the best) and can see every inch of the ballpark with clarity, enough to see whether a pitch is a strike or a ball. And they’re only $9 a ticket! I went on dollar dog day each game and paid $5 to park. It’s easily a night under $20, and if you can’t afford that you shouldn’t complain at all…because NOTHING in this city that is as entertaining as a baseball game is cheaper than that. Not the Cavs, Browns, a restaurant, a movie, not a thing.
Now if people don’t find baseball entertaining, that’s completely understandable. But don’t complain about the price, the argument really isn’t there.
Well I think first things first they could start with having the Dolan’s reach out to the fans on a regular basis. Maybe they do more of this than I realize but if they do I certainly don’t see/hear it.
They could do some of the suggestions listed in the article: even if they wouldn’t win the fight against MLB, they could endear themselves to the fans by trying to “fight the establishment”.
They could have “brand ambassadors” going around downtown and surrounding areas giving away free tickets. The revenue potential of concessions, souvenirs, etc would potentially cover the costs (plus people would realize how much fun the games are and may come back).
Offer shuttle services and tickets to games for groups of fans coming from more out of the way areas. ie: a $20 park and ride ticket from Mentor that gets you to and into the game in the bleachers, etc
Marketing and PR is not just having a “social media” room as I previously stated. And it’s easy to say “well you come up with better ideas” and sit back like you just made some amazing statement. The truth is, if given time to study the market, segment the customers, and frankly go through all the steps of developing a true marketing strategy; there are people that could come up with some good marketing campaign ideas.
Better sheep, maybe. The sheep go “baaaaaaaaaa”.
I have no idea where you get that idea or how it is even relevant. Read DC’s post again and tell me where it suggests anyone likes having less money to spend.
Also, go ahead and continue to believe that the economics of the game haven’t changed in the last 10-20 years, instead of noticing how tv deals are now separating the gap between small and large markets.
I’m not saying they don’t make mistakes in PR, but what should they done with those trades? CC and Lee were gone as free agents, would the fanbase have taken that any better?
I’m not pretending like I made an amazing statement, but at least, unlike you, I’m aware of what they’re trying.
If you want the Dolans to speak out more, you haven’t heard the reaction. They get lambasted, regardless of what they say. Fans refuse to trust them. They even have come out and explained how the current system affects them. But because they don’t do it in a comic-sans tantrum, people don’t pay much attention.
The Indians give away free tickets all the time, through contests, social media, and they frequently have people handing out tickets downtown before games.
Laketran still (I don’t know why) offers rides from the east side out to the game. $7.50 for both ways plus a $10 bleacher seat is even cheaper than you suggest.
If by a better PR strategy, you mean kicking in people’s doors to explain just how much they’re doing to get fans to the park, then fine, I guess they need to do more. But they already do a lot of these things you suggest. The majority of the PR problems for the Indians are that people in town bury their head in the sand (like you seem to be doing) regardless of how well they promote the team.
This is crap. I have had the luxury (through gifted tickets on the suites/loges) to sit in EVERY possible seating location in the stadium and there is nary a poor seat in the place for the respective price. Bleacher seats are fantastic. Not to mention specials that are run like the Grand Slam pack that can ticket, park and feed 4 people for $100, in Mezzanine seating no less. I’d like to see basketball or football do that.
honestly, yes I think the fanbase would have taken that better. they would hold that anger towards the player like they did for Belle, Thome, and Ramirez.
that’s what stinks for the FO. public sentiment is on the side that ends up getting less in return than a cold-hearted calculation. and, if that calculation doesn’t pay off (and quickly), then you even in deeper.
Both the CC and Lee trades were relative busts though. Brantley has underperformed, and none of the other impact players in those trades are in the majors. Lee in particular, we could have gotten a MUCH better deal for him…he still had 2 years left on his contract at the time we traded him.
I agree with Denny. Glad Gilbert is not the Indians owner. The Mets comment is legit
Some tribe seasin tickets come with $5 loaded cash….can use it on beer, food, or merchandise
The problem with the Cavs and Tribe is that the chances were there, they just fell short. Cleveland teams are not going to have superstars for the length of their careers anymore. No team will except teams in NY, LA, maybe Florida now. Look at St. Louis, they won the WS and still lost Pujols. The Tribe had the some of the best in the business in the ’90s with Belle, Lofton, Baerga, Thome, Williams, Grissom, Justice, the Alomar Brothers, Nagy, Mesa, Martinez, Hershiser, Vizquel, Ramirez and still came up short. Then in ’05-’08 the roster was still pretty good with CC, Lee, Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta but they blew a golden opportunity the last week of the season in ’05, laid an egg in ’06 and then coughed it up against Boston in ’07 and never recovered. Now the team is back on the right track, but fans are fickle and remember the disappointments stronger then the good times. Who can blame them with Cleveland’s track record.
I think the Tribe has a strong track record in place, and I trust that the right people are leading the group. Now, they need some better luck on the injury front and need to avoid last summer’s swoon and I think people will come back to the park. It will never be what it was in the heyday of the Jake, but that’ getting to be ancient history now. Time to turn the page and step up for what is here. This team is pretty solid.
while i don’t disagree with the point(s) made here i don’t believe they correlate to the low attendance issue.
Attendance is low b/c we, the Cleveland fans, have grown accustomed to failure. So when we see our team in first place we don’t know if we should believe it. Facebook is over flowing with status updates that read “is the Tribe for real????” We are looking to our friends in winning cities to tell us “yes, its okay to love her (Tribe) again, they are for real.”
…we have grown cautious b/c we don’t want Lucy to pull the football away from us right when we start believing again. So if it is a choice between paying $18 to see the Avengers in 3D or a Tribe game. We will take the sure bet.
You bring up a great point. Avoiding the injury bug will go a long way towards getting the fans to buy into this team. Even if the Tigers snap out of this funk and take the division, and I think they will, Thea healthy Indians team can stay in the fight all the way though September. That will give the fans something to ete behind.
You can see a first place major league baseball team play for less than:
– A movie at the theater
– A burger and fries
– Two large mochas
– A t-shirt
And you’re gonna tell me people can’t afford the games?!
“Can Cleveland support three teams anymore?”
Whoever came up with this question can go away forever. Cleveland is GROWING. Look around, there are buildings going up everywhere, there is a waiting list for housing for young people downtown, they are renovating the flats, there’s a casino…..
People just need to get off the Browns’ n*ts and embrace the best team in this city, not the one that is historically garbage. It’s sad, because everywhere I go in the city, people are rocking Tribe gear and every table at lunch is talking about the team. They just aren’t going. Yes, it’s partially the weather, but beyond that, people just won’t pony up a few bucks to catch the game. Half the time, you get free crap that is worth more than the ticket to get in.
Suck it up and get out there, folks. It honestly helps the team when those seats are full.
If that’s true, its truly pathetic.
I want to believe it’s not true.
I hope to GOD it’s not true.
Somebody in Cleveland, please tell me that’s not true!
I was going to make a point about true fans and movie options–I actually wrote it and deleted it, since it sounded so judgmental.
So because Pittsburgh fans don’t spend 75% of their fan energy castigating their owners for every slight, real OR imagined, they’re sheep?
Looks to me like you’re “baaaaaaing” to a different drummer…just sayin…
I have my Tribe Flag flying proudly in DC to my neighbors chagrin…
But the fact of the matter it is very true if my family and friends’ opinions in Clev and Akron are representative of the fan base. They strongly feel that even if the current performance lasts past the All Star Break the team will trade away players so why put the effort in to go see them. Especially, as another commentator said they have a great view of the game in their living room.
outside of the 2007 playoffs, the Tribe has been in “rebuilding” mode for most of the current century.
first, look at what Lee got in subsequent trades – not much either. second, the PR damage was done by the trade itself IMO, not the prospects acquired.
2005-2008 was our last window. we competed in ’05 & ’07 and spit the bit in ’06 & ’08. the latter accellerated our rebuilding efforts for our current window, which was supposed to be ’12-’15 but we had a glimpse of it last year.
for a mid-market team, it’s not bad. it’s not great, but it works better than at least 1/2 the teams in MLB.
We are accustomed to failure with the Browns, yet people are lining up to give money to ensure nothing happens to the Mike Holmgren retirement fund. It’s not a good baseball town (unless the circumstances are perfect), let’s just admit it.
Steve I’ll go one further I don’t think it’s a good sports town certainly not to the extent people might think. Cleveland is a football town at it’s core win or lose that’s a fact it’s the only way you can explain the past 13 years. Even after everything you have true believers tripping over everything the Browns do.
The Indians are an after thought and the Cavaliers are even further down the totem pole, pun intended. Unfortunately both of these teams couldn’t get over the hump when it was their time, especially the Indians.
I’m not sold on the Indians this year but baseball is a marathon and you just never know. There’s more of a chance of a cinderella in baseball so maybe this will be the year. For me it’d be a bigger accomplishment for the Indians to win a championship then the Browns.
Part of the problem is that many people who followed the team several years ago stopped following the team (for the already me talked about reasons) and don’t even know the team is good and in first place.
The Tampa Bay Lightning have a similar program to what you suggest. With all full season ticket purchases you get a FREE jersey which has a chip in the shoulder logo that automatically gives you 20% off at the concession stands as well as the team shop.