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July 20, 2012
The quote in the title of the piece is from Chris Antonetti. It is something that we’ve heard several times from the front office this season.
It doesn’t take a genius to know that if Justin Masterson and Ubaldo Jimenez were pitching like a pair of aces the Indians would have a better record and would likely be in first in the division.
It also doesn’t take a genius to know that if Carlos Santana was hitting something other than .221 with a .678 OPS the Indians would be scoring more runs, and potentially winning more games.
Yes, we are all disappointed in Matt LaPorta.
But here’s what has been bugging me. The Indians have a narrow window of opportunity. That was actually part of the message we were told after the trade of Pomeranz and White to the Rockies for Jimenez last year. We all know that Shin-Soo Choo will test the free agent market- mostly because he is a Scott Boras client. That will likely mean the Indians aren’t going to be serious players for his services in the future. He will simply price himself out of the Tribe market.
With this window of opportunity being around 2 or 3 years (and with no real prospects of note in triple or even double A ball) the team can’t afford to sit around and pin everything on the players not performing up to expectations.
What happens at your job if your production goes in the toilet? Wouldn’t there be consequences? What if you were a big part of a team or a committee on a big project? If you weren’t contributing or if others were having to pick up your slack wouldn’t you find yourself re-assigned?
Here’s the point I’m trying to make. Winning teams, real championship contenders won’t sit around and let a player or two keep them out of the playoffs. If third base is a problem area for the Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox or Tigers they would find other options at third base. Ditto for left field or catcher or closer or wherever. They wouldn’t continue to trot out the problem month after month and just hope that the player plays up to their potential.
I’m not a do anything for the sake of doing something guy. I am a fan that was frustrated seeing Sizemore signed to a $5 million dollar deal, knowing that was money that the team wouldn’t be spending to fix the holes we’ve been talking about for years now.
Consider this from Joe Sheehan today–
“The Indians are once again living off a second straight strong start, but whereas the 2011 team fell fast and hard, this one arrested its descent before the All-Star break and has kept itself in two races. We say “OBP is life,” and the Tribe proves it, leading the AL in walks drawn for a .335 OBP (third) that is sustaining an offense (410 runs, eighth) lacking in longball power (83, 11th). Some early-season good work by the rotation was a chimera, as it was largely the result of pitchers with poor fundamentals getting lucky on balls in play. Now, the Indians have allowed more runs than any AL team other than the Twins, and their -30 run differential is a strong indication that they should be selling.
In this case, though, Cleveland can take a good look at going the other way. Unlike many AL teams, it can realistically consider itself to have a shot at both the front and back doors to the postseason. The Indians also have a roster that is somewhat easier to improve than most, strong up the middle and weak on the corners. You’d rather be searching for first base and leftfield help at the deadline than at shortstop.
The Indians also need to look for some bullpen support, and that’s always the cheapest and easiest thing to find at the trade deadline. The Indians may not be able to get into the ace-starter market — they made a big bet and lost a year ago on Ubaldo Jimenez — but could find themselves in the mix for second-tier guys like Jason Vargas and Wandy Rodriguez. With so many players at their peak ages and relatively weak competition, it’s their time. BUY.”
Now is not the time to let these areas of need destroy the season. It’s time to make a move in order to propel the team into the post-season.
40 Comments
This is beyond frustrating to me. They announced at one point, whether last year or the year before (I think it was last year, in an attempt to salve our concerns that the 2011 season went south of cheese so fast), that their “window” for competing for a championship was 2012-2013. Rather than trying to fly through that window, they did next to nothing, beyond loosening the screws on the screen and putting their hands nearby to check the temperature. If our only plan is to “hope” that the guys we have “play to their potential,” then we have no plan. Hope is not a course of action.
Apropos to another post today, I watch this team every night, but given this type of thinking, I really can see why others do not and do not attend games.
Oh well. I sure do HOPE that they do something before the trade deadline.
I’ll see you tonight, guys.
/Factory of Futility
This team isn’t good enough whether they make a trade or not. I hope they don’t mortgage the future just to sell some tickets this year. The team is built around Masterson and Santana – when those guys don’t perform, it’s over.
I agree it’s frustrating. Especially seeing what’s in LF. If we don’t make a fix for this season, then it should be with eyes on fixing that spot for next year at least. But, I understand it to a point that Antonetti sees adding 1 player isn’t going to make this team much better if Santana, Masterson and Ubaldo don’t get out of their season-long funks.
I know most of us here already speak Sharipoesse, but for the non-natives I shall translate.
“The guys that are here need to play to their potential.” = “We aren’t going to do jack before the trade deadline.”
I agree with you, but that’s the source of my frustration. They knew LAST year that they needed AT LEAST two guys for THIS season (LF, 3B/1B – not to mention a SP to replace Fausto/Roberto Carmona/Hernandez). Instead, they HOPED that Santana and Masterson and Ubaldo would be who they thought they were (apologies, Dennis Green) – oh, and picked up Kotchman (who I honestly really like, but nobody can fool anybody that this was a winning strategy). Sure, adding 1 player this year won’t fix our problems; but adding 1 player NOW would be phenomenal if they had added TWO players LAST YEAR.
[Wow. I’m in rare angry form today. I’m even using random capitalized words in the middle of sentences. That’s lame. Maybe it’s because they chalked up a loss yesterday before they even took the field – which I think they’ve done multiple times this year. I think I need some meditation (or medication – Bulleit Burbon?). Where’s our San Fran guru?? I wonder if he’ll help with Indians fans as well as Browns fans? SERENITY NOW!]
Nice commentary!
I’m afraid even if this team makes a move it won’t matter on and off the field. The damage has been done. It would take a trade or two of substance plus the team doing well before people/fans started to notice. Is this unfortunate, yes but sadly this is what happens when Tribe speak is all people see/hear. Enough talking do something!
What is scary is that many of our players – Kotchman, Damon, Cunningham – may be playing to their potential already. What’s infuriating is that those three are all guys that the front office brought in this year to improve the team.
Seriously, with exception of Kotchman’s defense, would this team really be worse off with Laporta at first, Carrera in left, and Crowe on the bench? We’re spending four million and a prospect for what exactly?
I don’t want to sound snarky, but who should the Indians get and how should they get them? We have no prospects to deal and revenue is in the tank thanks to consistently poor attendance so we can’t take on payroll. How can they currently acquire new pieces without creating holes at other positions?
What’s the status of Sizemore? Can we even pretend that he’ll be back this year?
My opinion: They should go ahead and create a hole at DH and figure out a way to unload Hafner and whatever else it takes (within reason, I’m thinking Perez and a couple of minors) to get a bona fide LF now. Of course, this presumes that a market exists for Hafner, which is admittedly highly doubtful. It’s all I’ve got, though.
Now you see how I felt about the Browns’ 2011 campaign. You know what is wrong and you know it needs to be fixed…and everyone does nothing. It’s insane.
The main person not “playing” up to their level of potential is the Indians’ front office.
I’ve thought about this a bit, though, and I think the main difference is that the Browns FO – whether you think they’re smart or not (I know what you think) – appears to want to do SOMETHING. It may be brilliant, it may be stupid (or something in between), we can agree or disagree with the strategy (I agree, you disagree), but at least it’s a strategy.
The Indians, on the other hand – at least in my opinion, are banking on “hope” and the falling of Fate’s chips. I would rather they do something wholly stupid than do nothing at all.
Cleveland Browns Stadium might be a factory of sadness, but Progressive Field is a factory of futility (I really like this, as you can tell). At least the Browns FO make fans sad and/or angry. The Indians FO only makes us apathetic. I’d much rather cry than not care at all, and – again, in my opinion, most Cleveland fans feel the same way. Unfortunately, the Indians FO doesn’t even give us a chance to cry.
[Again, wow. I’m really in rare form today. I got my pitchfork from your arms room a few months ago, but hadn’t used it at all. I had no idea it would be directed toward E. 9th and Carnegie.]
That actually makes some sense. If you’ve got to create a hole, may as well do it with someone who doesn’t play the field. But like you said, what’s the market for Hafner?
I’d also be okay with seeing Perez go. Not because of his mouth or his performance, but because our bullpen is the one area that could take a hit and still (hopefully) perform at about the same level.
Well said. I’m starting to feel the same way about the Tribe.
Whatever their strategy is, clearly it doesn’t work.
At this point, I’d rather see them do something daring that ends in horrible failure than continue with this bland, ineffective stay-the-course nonsense that has resulted in the current mediocrity.
Yeah, I don’t want to see Perez go, but we do have another (potentially better) closer right in front of him. I also think that, because he’s got proven game-winning talent, he’s the piece that would actually tempt another team to also go for Hafner in exchange for the RH bat we need.
No…i read a report that says we may not see him this year
They did exactly that already with the Ubaldo trade: it was daring, and it was a failure.
Trade Perez and Hafner to Boston to see what we can get
I thought about mentioning that deal. It did make me happy. More of that!
Ha, for the most part I see your point, but you’re absolutely kidding yourself if you don’t think the “chips of fate” approach wasn’t used for the WR corps in 2011.
Yes, we must agree to disagree although as the evidence mounts its hard to not see it the way I do.
Admit that much, at least, and we’ll call it even.
Also I love your Factory of Futility.
If Pomeranz and White had done something, anything I’d say the trade was a failure but they haven’t. You’ve had Ubaldo for a year almost and eventhough he’s been inconsistent he’s still provided more then either Pomeranz and White would have this season.
Re the WR corps in 2011, I do agree with you – and, if you recall (not that it matters) their inability to draft a WR early this year was the reason I got the pitchfork. Beyond that, though, I do think that they have implemented a strategy over the last few years, and it’s one that I generally agree with (and their move in the supplemental draft soothed my WR rage).
[Now how can you possibly say “agree to disagree,” but then place an unreasonable caveat that would require me to vacate my entire position in order to “call it even?” I admire your moxy, but that’s no negotiation strategy! “Agree to disagree” and “call it even” are the same thing! Besides, I still fundamentally disagree with you on the main point.
I still believe that “as the evidence mounts,” we’ll see a more successful team. I just don’t think that it will be this year, necessarily. If, after a couple of subsequent years, the evidence proves what you think is true, I’ll gladly relent. But until then, we’ll just need to agree to disagree and call it even.]
Yes!
Pomeranz and White were pieces that could of been used to acquire the bats we need
Sadly, this is the year for contention. With Choo coming up for a new contract (and, obviously no young outfielders of value to replace him with), they’re going to have to start unloading guys next year and begin a new rebuild. 2017, here we come!
one other thing is that if we had drafted better, then we would have more assets in order to use in trades to acquire other players. or they would be pushing for playing time themselves. that is the biggest area we need to improve on.
what really burns is seeing the same strategy being applied in Pitt but they seem like they may have a few better scouts as more of their players are hitting (we’ll see long-term though. some questions about some of the guys they are currently banking on)
Exactly. There’s a reason why these and others were on the scrap heap/came cheap. Ant’s version is that they’re underachievers…another (realistic) version is they can’t cut it. Let’s face it…expecting better performance from key offensive positions like 3B, 1B, and the left field fiasco to be manned by journeymen and washed ups is insane. I like Kotch, Damon & Hanahan as bench guys…but seriously? As for Ubaldo & Masterson…they’ve always been big potential but erratic guys. Wanting more from them is understandable…expecting more may be irrational.
Puhlease that’s Indian speak if they got what they did for Lee and Sabathia what do u think P&W would have added?
Hey watch it! đ
This is what I’ve been saying kinda rubs salt in the wounds when Neil Huntington of the Pirates was once with the Indians. Hey maybe trade Choo to Pittsburgh for some prospects, lol.
2 things:
– saying “make that move” is great. But with what, for what, and who is willing? He had two good chits, he used them, it didn’t work. Without more chits don’t see what the directive is other than to do something crazy because the window is closing. Trade whoever is playing well and pray the return makes a bigger impact? And please don’t give the Ubaldo trade a pass b/cthe two we gave up aren’t stars now. Like the failed Robbie Alomar trade and others, the measuring stick is: what was their value on the market at the time of the trade? For those two, pretty darn high.
– Who’s to say any of these players are performing significantly beneath their potential? Potential is a subjective estimation. We said that Santana is Vic Martinez as a hitter. We don’t actually know that. LaPorta may be squeezing everything out of his abilities right now. Colorado dumped Ubaldo. Boston didn’t love Masterson. Nobody loves Kotchman. The problem may be more Antonetti, his scouts and method of player evaluation/value than the players underachieving. Sports performance is outcome determinative, you’re precisely as good as you play.
It’s more of “I’m technically not allowed to talk about guys on other team’s roster, but I am allowed to talk about the ones on mine”
Yes, we would.
Do “players that are here” include the ones at the baseball academcy in the DR who recently changed their names?
According to multiple sources, pitcher Roberto Hernandez is expected to soon be receiving a new visa from the State Department, which would allow the right-hander to return to the United States. Hernandez remains in his native Dominican Republic, where he continues to train at Cleveland’s baseball academy.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120719&content_id=35196044¬ebook_id=35201818&vkey=notebook_cle&c_id=cle&partnerId=rss_mlb
That is great news. Wonder what kind of shape he’s really in.
they at least say he was training at the Indians facility down there. better than on his own I suppose.
Crowe and Carrera were/are hitting like garbage in AAA, why would they be improvements here? And anyone who is still fooled by LaPorta’s AAA line, we’ll I don’t know what to say to them anymore. And Kotchman and Damon have turned it around a bit. Still not good hitters, but not terrible.
1. I am a loyal Indians fan.
2. Antonetti is correct with his statement.
but…
We also need the GM of this team to “play to his potential” too. Wasting $5 million on Sizemore while whiffing on other LF options this off-season has been just as damaging as Santana’s slump, Masterson’s struggles, and Ubaldo’s inconsistency.
I can’t wait to see this new kid play!
Not at all. Those last 3 guys were supposed to be 4-5 WAR type players. I know people get antsy at the use of sabermetrics, but basically all-star types. People in this town begged for Willingham, thinking he’d be a 2 WAR type, a decent starter. Now, Willingham has blown up and would look fantastic here, but an average LF would mean nothing if those 3 don’t play well.