June 20, 2013

WFNY Coming to Grips with the 2012 Cleveland Indians

July 24, 2012 by 25 Comments

Last night during a victory over the Baltimore Orioles, the WFNY email chain turned depressing as most everyone it seems has given up on the season. Here’s how it unfolded.

Jon: Just got home. Will headline the Anibal Sanchez trade.

Jacob: Ominous emails like that are the worst, Jon. Seriously thought for a moment the Indians got him. That’s what I get for being off Twitter all day.

Jon: Sorry Jacob. On the other hand, this IS the Indians, so, you know, you can’t fool me again after you’ve already…

Craig: I’m so beyond frustrated that this summer is totally wasted with the Tribe. This is a complete organizational failure when they had a real chance. It hit me for real (for real) today with all the trades and now I’m just ticked off at these front office know-it-alls who sit there and pretend like they’re too smart to give a guy a third year to play the one stinking offseason dire need. 1

I have to suspend more disbelief to be a Tribe fan than I do to enjoy Christopher Nolan’s Batman sequel. 2

Kirk: I don’t like to be that guy, but Antonetti should lose his job if we don’t make the playoffs in 2013. I’ll never understand the one foot in approach of trading for Ubaldo, then doing absolutely freaking NOTHING else. The trade was bad enough for me but to not do anything to support the contention effort is nothing short of moronic. He should have to answer for that.

TD: I can’t say I disagree. As I wrote today he put all his eggs on the basket of Ubaldo. Then brought back Grady and never solved LF. Player regression is not his fault but his reaction times are too slow.

Scott: I’m as far from “fire him” guy that you’ll meet, but I agree that this season (beginning this past winter) was an utter embarrassment. Needs couldn’t have been more glaring; execution couldn’t have been more half-(hearted.) 3

Jon: TD was right all along: Grady sealed their fate.

The Willingham miss was big, but gosh it’s hard for me to fault them for that one in particular, especially in retrospect. It’s one thing to say I told you so (if you thought all along Willingham was “the guy”, to use the parlance of our times). Quite another to say, after he puts up a .950 OPS, they should’ve known that a career .830 OPS guy was gonna do it. Heck, if I remember right, a whole lot more people wanted Cuddyer, who’s been pretty Damon-esque this year.

But you pays your dime, you takes your chance. They missed on Grady. They missed on Ubaldo. They missed on LaPorta and Donald and Marson and Knapp. They failed to develop Santana (or so it would seem). For a FO that loves to remind everyone of its successes–and there’ve been a lot, especially in the minor trades–their major failures are why this team isn’t in contention. And that sucks.

I tend to agree with Kirk. These guys have shown us everything they can do, and I’d lean toward cleaning house next season if things don’t improve. I do think they’re smart, but they’re also too savvy for their own good sometimes. Unfortunately, I think it’s going to take not just a change in the front office, but a change in ownership to have any effect. The Dolans have poisoned the well, and no one in this city is ever going to cut this team any slack again so long as they’re at the top.

Craig: I used to think the fans and front office were all pulling in the same direction. Now I don’t feel like the front office even shares the same goals. That’s the distrust that the Dolans and Selig have wrought.

Again, I don’t totally blame the Dolans or even the front office, but damn it if it isn’t a perfect storm that has me questioning everyone except my fellow Tribe fans who I know still want to care and see playoff games.

Blink and half a decade has disappeared. We only have six or seven decades to enjoy this team in a lifetime.

Jon: I tried to explain to my brother once about the Cleveland sports trauma-thing. He’ll never get it. I never will either, at least not directly. But I’ve watched other people get it. And it’s exactly what Craig’s hinting at.

People are scared they’re going to die, just like their parents and grandparents did, without getting what they want. That fear can make you pretty unsympathetic to phrases like “contention cycles” or “reloading the system” or “Russell Branyan”. Funny enough, that’s why Detroit is going all-in this year: their owner knows he’s going to die soon, and he wants to see it before he goes.

I’ve always given our front office a lot of slack because I think they do better than most would, under the same circumstances. I can’t imagine how terrible it must be to be a Pirates fan or an Orioles fan–where there aren’t down years, but down quarter-centuries.

But that doesn’t mean our front office has been successful. They’ve just managed the decay as best they could. And it’s the decay that speaks to what Cleveland fans are most afraid of: I’m going to rot away before this thing ever happens.

___________________________________

  1. Willingham naturally. I was venting. [back]
  2. Yes, I also tweeted this later. I plagiarize myself when I like a line. Sue me. [back]
  3. Scott didn’t say “hearted” but you know. [back]

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  • http://www.cinpleweb.com/ stin4u

    I’m glad that the rose colored glasses are finally slipping of the nose of some fans. I was optimistic this team could win MAYBE 85 games this year. That was a stretch in my book, with the failure of the Ubaldo trade and the absolute train wreck that is Grady Sizemore. Antonetti should be fired based on those two moves alone. Sorry, but it’s the truth. That isn’t hindsight, although I’m sure people will insist it is. You don’t make headline moves like signing Aaron Cunningham and win divisions when your competitors are signing big name FA’s and are actually active in the trade market to fill their needs.

    At this point, for me, this year is as good as over. I don’t know what would be worse; continuing to do nothing and feed us this crap about ‘our players just need to do better’ or calling it quits and blowing it up all over again. The Dolans and the FO don’t have the marbles to do the latter, and smarter, option. That is exactly why this team is going to be mediocre at it’s very best till they’re all gone.

  • mgbode

    if the Indians had drafted well, then none of this would be a problem. we’d promote from within, trade prospects for MLB-guys that are more ready, etc.

    instead, we’re forced to hope we can turn guys like O-Cab into gold (promote Thomas Neal to AAA already).

    ———————————

    all that being said, while the Ubaldo/Lowe/Tomlin/Gomez-McCallister disaster could have been predicted to some extent, they were far worse than even most dire predictions.

    the hitting has been about the expected (minus any semblence of power) even if all the guys in the order haven’t met expectations (as Kipnis & Brantley rising w/ Choo resurfacing has made up for that).

  • The_Real_Shamrock

    You forgot the decision on Willingham, was Cody Ross ever considered and not being more aggressive on Kevin Youkilis. I mean when I heard the Indians could have possibly had Youkilis for Tomlin I laughed. Antonetti is lost now he doesn’t know whether to be a buyer or seller at this point and that’s a problem when your the GM and it’s July 24th.

    Also as mgbode points out the horrible drafting puts them behind the eight ball given they can’t afford to play in the bigger sandbox these days. Even if they had kept Pomeranz and White the farm system would be bleak. They have some players unfortunately most of them are in double A or lower now.

    The sad reality for the Indians is that the meek shall not inherit baseball! If you can’t spend then you might as well be a AAAA team composed of entirely prospects. Hope that guys develop at the same time and if they don’t sell them off individually for more prospects. Like what will have to be done with Choo soon just like what was done with Sabathia, Lee and Martinez. Oh and hope if you do sell that you do a better job in talent evaluation on the returning players.

  • http://twitter.com/GreatestHurley Jason Hurley

    The lack of depth on this team and resources in this organization is sad – there was never a possibility for a ‘Plan B’ – if the players they had didn’t work out, we never had any real ability to make it better.
    I move to trade off what pieces you can before the deadline (when teams who deem they are ‘in it’ will give up more), e.g. Choo, both Perez-left and Perez-right, Lowe, and anyone else who isn’t named Cabrera, Kipnis, Chisenall, Santana, Pestano, Masterson, or McAllister.
    They may as well start the next rebuild now. 2018, here we come!!

  • mgbode

    Youk was batting .233/.315/.377 w/ OPS+ 83 for the BoSox and battling a bad back. not like we could have banked on him snapping out of it and improving to .281/.369/.863 w/ OPS+ 129.

    Even with that though, I agree that if all it took was Tomlin, then I would have taken that chance (going by the trade they got from the ChiSox, they would have wanted a guy like Jose Lopez too, still that’s fine by me).

    I agree that if we do end up selling Choo this offseason (doesn’t seem like it will be now), then we better do better than the Lee and CC deals. I think we did okay on the Victor deal (Masterson for Victor seems like a fair trade).

  • stryker1121

    Bill Livingston recently talked about how deflating the ‘littleness’ of covering current Cleveland sports can be. That’s how I feel about the Tribe. A team that takes half measures (No more half measures, Walter) and lacks the resources and/or ambition to go all in. I love this franchise, but I’m beginning to hate it as I love/hate the Browns.

  • Garry_Owen

    I’ve said everything I need to say on this topic, and won’t say anything more. In fact, I don’t even know why I said this. Am I typing just to hear myself type? Maybe. Sounds a bit like a 65 wpm machine gun. Sweet. Oh, and trade Pronk.

  • 5KMD

    The real depressing thing for me is even if your last paragraph scenario works out, there is still no guarantee of winning the WS in that 1 or 2 years of contention. Look at the Rangers the last two years who have had an uber talented bunch.
    That’s the real reason MLB is unfair. The Yanks can just keep making the playoffs every year (especially now with 2 wild cards) and eventually they will get some postseason luck. Not only does the Tribe have to have a perfect set of scenarios work out, but then they have to win the WS that year as well. That’s why 2007 hurt so much.

  • Tom C

    All come back to the Dolan’s…..WHY in heavens name would you purchase a franchise if you cannot or wiii not keep them at the leve they were when purchased? Its a cash cow for them, they get the millions in pocket money from the league but have no requirement to reinvest into the team. I loved what Richard Jacobs had done, waking up the sleeping giant that recorded 455 sellouts….Dolans, have simply put the giant back to sleep, I wish Jacobs had found another buyer. Alltarts at the top, Shapiro was just John Hart’s caddy, that made him a genius?? Buy time, lie, say anything to survive…what a bunch of losers…Gabe Paul and Vernon Stouffer all over again. We deserve better.

  • Tom C

    All come back to the Dolan’s…..WHY in heavens name would you purchase a franchise if you cannot or will not keep them at the level they were when purchased? Its a cash cow for them, they get the millions in pocket money from the league but have no requirement to reinvest into the team. I loved what Richard Jacobs had done, waking up the sleeping giant that recorded 455 sellouts….Dolans, have simply put the giant back to sleep, I wish Jacobs had found another buyer. All starts at the top, Shapiro was just John Hart’s caddy, that made him a genius?? Buy time, lie, say anything to survive…what a bunch of losers…Gabe Paul and Vernon Stouffer all over again. We deserve better.

  • The_Real_Shamrock

    Youkilis was a player and a great teammate both of those were/are clearly needed on this team. Did you honestly think he was going to continue to struggle like he did before the trade? He was hurt then had nowhere to play when he came back plus Valentine wore thin on him and who can blame him.

    As far as the trade possibility for Youkilis Bud Shaw on MS&LL never said anyone else other then either Tomlin or McAllister. For all you know they may have wanted an additional player from Chicago because Stewart wouldn’t be starting immediately. Tomlin or McAllister on the other hand would.

    Irregardless I heard Boston might be looking at Josh Johnson. Oh please let it be true love to see one of my favorite pitchers land with the BoSox.

  • The_Real_Shamrock

    I never even thought of the WS that would take a perfect storm like a bunch of young guys obtained through trade growing together with the addition of a new stadium. That’s 30 years down the road.

    MLB is unfair granted but the Indians are making it harder for themselves thanks to poor decisions. They also don’t help themselves when they announce publicily that when and if the time comes that they are in contention ownership will step up. Or that 2012 was the year to contend when we all know baseball seasons change from year to year heck week to week. Did the Indians think Detroit would just sit back and watch or that no other AL teams would makes moves?

    NY traded prospects for Ichiro the Indians could have possibly done the same except for one problem, they don’t really have any good prospects. Detroit traded prospects to Miami. The Indians can’t afford to pay and they have nothing to trade unless they gut the core of talent because the fringe players they have are of no interest to other teams. Welcome to the land of mediocrity, make yourself comfortable because your going to be here awhile Indians fans!

  • http://www.waitingfornextyear.com Craig Lyndall

    In fairness to the Dolans the top payrolls when they bought the team were in the $100 million range and then the arms races started happening. The Yankees and the richer teams are in the $200 million conversation or have been in the last few years. So while criticism of the Dolans isn’t without merit, it is also not fair to simply ignore what Selig and MLB have let happen to the sport overall, competitively.

  • Tom C

    Craig…your thought has merit….but we have been a long way from $100 million in payroll and remain as such with 2010 at $61 million, 2011 at $49 million and 2012 at $78 million. Thats 39% and 58% reductions from $100 million just in the past 2 years. One had to assume when they bought, it would be a rising need to remain competitive. I haven’t seen anything but a sales job using smoke and mirrors and the hard numbers support a tight pocketbook approach.

  • http://twitter.com/GreatestHurley Jason Hurley

    Everyone thinks that their owner could and should spend more, but I think that distracts from the real argument here.
    The argument should be directed towards whether the baseball budget (regardless of its size) has been spent appropriately duing this “window”, and I would argue that it hasn’t.
    A major league team (Tampa, as the best example, Minnesota pre-Target stadium, as another) can compete with $70 million payrolls as long as there is a lot of smarts and some luck. We haven’t had any of that (we’ve had some luck….the F.O. has made some baaaad decisions along the way).

  • mgbode

    I think the Twins and A’s are the examples to follow.

    Easy to forget now, but the Rays spent the first 10years of their existance being the worst team in MLB and accumulating top10 pick after top10 pick to build up their current farm system and team (to their credit, they put money into the draft and developed a system that sells off assets when they feel they are at their peak).

    I definitely agree that we have had too many crucial mis-steps with how we spend our money (Kerry Wood, Grady re-sign, etc. We don’t have money in the budget to burn yet we seem like we set 10-20% of the budget on fire every year)

  • Tom C

    I couldn’t agree with you more…..we have a team of spare parts (where would the likes of Donald and Cunningham see the lights of a major league stadium but in Cleveland ?), every year its a Jamie Carroll lookalike club. Look for us to lose Choo in our revolving door that never allows us a move or two to be competitive, we need 6 moves and that means not creating more by losing our best people. But the front office sells this “our time is coming” baloney at $5.00 a pound and expects us to just string along year after year waiting for that one near miss thats supposed to satisfy us. Time for a cleanout of the brainless-truss who wouldnt know talent if it bit them.

  • Harv 21

    Some of the opinions on the Dolans a little harsher than my thoughts but I agree: this is what happens in sports when you buy high and don’t have a significant independent revenue source to thrive if conditions don’t stay at their peak.

    Sometimes it’s startling how decent, local people like the Dolans have managed to create such contempt. It’s not just the comparison to their richer, smarter, more successful predecessor. It’s the feeling that these guys don’t have and will never have the aggressiveness and sharpness to compete in any environment. I mean, if you think a richer version of Larry Dolan could have pulled off the political campaign to usher in Gateway funding and see the park to completion, hire Hank Peters and completely rebuild the farm system from a joke, and crank out or steal from others Manny, Thome, Belle, Lofton, Vizquel, Baerga, Alomar …

    The bottom line is competence. Craig points out that the baseball economics shifted on them. True, but Dolan’s fortune came from Cablevision stock, not his law practice, and when that crashed so did our payroll. The Jacobs were real estate guys used to adjusting to bad conditions and pouncing in good ones. Dick Jacobs shined the team up in the display window, extracted the biggest price he could and walked away with a smirk at just the right time. That wasn’t luck, that was his business savvy. The Dolans put themselves in the financial death spiral of slash payroll/ falling attendance in a part of the country where they would need a huge new investor to even try to climb out. So instead they promote hoped-for “windows” of contention. But even then, it’s not just the contracts of the young players that must break right that year: health, those players actually being good as advertised and an angel appearing, like Fausto in 2007.

  • JRS19

    No need to complain, guys! Brent Lillibridge just came on board! AL Central Champs!

  • 5KMD

    OK…but do you really want Ichiro right now? And then rely on him as a “major” acquisition. I get your point but no reason to make dumb moves just because you can.

  • mgbode

    it worked in 2007 getting an over-the-hill Lofton

  • 5KMD

    Lofton embraced Cleveland, Ichiro would rather do himself bodily harm then play there…and made that clear to everyone.

  • mgbode

    was just talking theoretically (fast, defensive OFer who is well past prime coming to Indians as “big” transaction near deadline to spur playoff run)

  • Steve

    We have to make sure to credit the right people here. The voters who built the new stadium and Hank Peters – the guy who actually drafted/signed Belle. Ramirez, Thome and Nagy. They are the reason for the success of the 90s.

    I don’t give Jacobs/Hart much respect for how they ended their tenure. Things were starting to get rocky, and they went all out, jeopardizing the future of the team (Imagine the reaction if Shapiro had traded Giles for Rincon). I know everyone thinks it would have been easy to find another buyer, but I don’t think you were going to find another owner other than a local guy who was a fan. Anyone else who had interest in buying the team in the last ten years, now that the arms race has increased, will be looking to move the team and capitalize on the money a new stadium brings in.

    Honestly, a lot of the criticism seems confusing to me. We realize how far behind the 8 ball that the Indians are. We’ll never generate the type of revenue that a big market does, and we’re not only not a destination-town, players actively want to avoid coming here. Despite this, the team has put out some pretty good teams, and developed some really good players. I’m not defending the team and the position its in, but we have to face the reality of the situation. For as happily as we remember the Jacobs Indians teams, he topped 90 wins just 3 times, one fewer than Dolan has. There is no owner that is going to magically fix this team, especially as the importance has shifted from ticket sales to tv money.

  • Steve

    “I’m just ticked off at these front office know-it-alls who sit there
    and pretend like they’re too smart to give a guy a third year to play
    the one stinking offseason dire need”

    To me, this is lazy and dumb. Tribe doesn’t do what we in the cheap seats want them to do? Well that’s because they’re haughty know-it-alls. Who cares about trying to understand why some move did or didn’t happen, let’s just be pissed about it and assume that it was because there is some flaw in the personality of someone in management.