While We’re Waiting… Camp Meyer, Fujita’s Punishment and More on Tribe Downfall
August 7, 2012NFL News: Browns Release First Depth Chart
August 7, 2012
You want a recap? I will give you one. The Indians were annihilated by the Twins 14-3 while giving up 10 runs in one inning. That’s your recap.
Last night’s debacle, the Indians 10th straight loss, has me seeing things differently. In fact, this moment of clarity came over my weekend trip to Detroit.
On Saturday night, I made the trek down to Comerica Park with my family. Upon arrival, it was a sea of Old English D caps, Tigers shirts and jerseys. The sell out crowd was nothing new in Detroit. They fill the park the majority of their games. In fact, the Tigers rank ninth out of 30 Major League franchises in attendance, with an average of over 37,400 fans. Not coincidentally, the Tigers have MLB’s fifth largest payroll at over $132 million.
Then I thought to myself, the city of Detroit is generally viewed as one of the most depressed big cities in America. Job loss is at an all time high. There are vacant buildings all over the downtown area. Businesses close. Downtown Detroit is far from vibrant. Remember the old Mike Polk Jr ” Hastily Made Cleveland Tourist Video from 2009? The tag line at the end was “We’re Not Detroit.”
That’s right, we’re not Detroit. Detroit has a deep pockets billionaire owner who uses the franchise as his toy. Mike Illitch, he of the Little Caesars Pizza empire, has unlimited funds. And he spends. And spends. And spends. Illitch wants another World Series title badly before he dies and it is clear he will stop at nothing to make sure that he gets one.
He is doing this in a dying, mid-market city and making it work. The Tigers again are near the top of the AL Central and right there for a Wild Card spot again.
So as I sat and watched a team with Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera dominate the Tribe, all I could think about was the one thing that separates these two mid-western downtrodden baseball cities – ownership.
Over the last six, seven, eight years, the whispers of the Dolan ownership group’s “cheapness” became chatter. The chatter became yells, the yells became screams. All along the way, I have defended Larry and his son Paul. To me, it was their right to run the franchise the way they wanted to; their philosophy was to build a strong farm system, raise their own young talent, watch them grow into major league players, and “spend when the time is right.”
SIDE NOTE – that quote above is one that will go down in Cleveland Sports infamy with Art Modell’s “I had no choice,” and Bill Belichick’s “diminishing skills” explanation after he cut Bernie Kosar. Â
In 2005, they caught lightning in a bottle with a young core of players and won 93 games before collapsing the last week of the season. At the time, the 93 wins were the most for any American League in the Wild Card era to not make the playoffs. Two years later, that same core group, led by Grady Sizemore, CC Sabathia, Victor Martinez, and Jhonny Peralta, won the AL Central and were one game away from the World Series before they choked on a 3-1 ALCS lead.
Since then, the Indians have yet to finish over .500.
Again, throughout this time, I defended the Dolan philosophy. Every three to four years, a window of contention would open when their young core players would come into their own. They just had to take advantage of it, as they did in 2007. But the nostalgia quickly wore off for the casual fan, starting in 2008 when the first of many fire sale trades were made to restock the farm system. Their top trading chips Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and Victor Martinez were shipped out for a bevy of prospects that were supposed to make up the next core group that would have the Indians contending again by 2012.
But as we have seen, the margin of error with the Dolan ownership is almost nil. Notice a change in that last sentence. I used to be a guy who would say “the margin of error in this market….” But no more. Detroit is the exact same kind of market as Cleveland. The cities share similar economic challenges. They are both proud, tough, blue collar towns that have become national punchlines at times and are viewed as key battleground areas politically.
The Dolan Family has every right to run this team they way they do. They paid (or should I say completely OVERPAID) for the right to do so. But with that said, in 2012, their model isn’t working. The Indians have become a farm team for the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Rangers, the Angels, the Dodgers, etc etc. They watch as their young players like Sabathia, Lee, and Martinez rise to stardom and then are traded as they approach free agency.
The latest player that will go down this road is Shin-Soo Choo. Everyone knows that Choo, a free agent after the 2013, will either be traded this winter or next season, or walk out the door to a big market team. Whatever he can command on the open market, the Dolan ownership would never even consider matching.
Then you had last season’s “window of contention” allegedly fly wide open. GM Chris Antonetti said the plan be dammed, he was going to go for it, and added Ubaldo Jimenez for their top two pitching prospects. This move screamed for the Indians to add payroll and charge full steam ahead in 2012. Instead, they failed to follow up that “all in” move with additional acquisitions that would bolster the team. The front office, knowing their hands are tied fiscally, refused to add a third year to a deal for LF Josh Willingham and watched him walk to the Twins for $21 million over three years, a deal that screams “club friendly,” unless you are under the Dolan umbrella.
Look, signing Willingham was not going to change anything with the way the majority of the pitching staff has performed this season. But the move just illustrates a disturbing pattern. Even when the Indians were in or near first place, they had a hard time drawing fans. While the Tigers and their $130 million payroll are fifth in the majors in attendance with an average of over 34,000 fans, the Indians are dead last at just over 20,000. That number is only going to go down with this recent 10-game losing skid.
It is not the product on the field that is responsible for keeping people away from Progressive Field. Talk to people around town. Listen to talk radio. Scroll through Twitter. The Dolan family ownership is despised in this town. Watching Randy Lerner sell the Browns to billionaire Jimmy Haslam certainly isn’t doing them any favors either. Even the most ardent Dolan supporters like I was for so long, have turned to the dark side. The market size can’t be used as a crutch. The Detroit model has debunked that theory. You get a deep pockets billionaire owner, pair him with a smart, shrewd veteran baseball man to run the team, and watch as your team competes for the playoffs from year to year.
Larry and Paul Dolan are nice people. But they are in completely over their heads owning a baseball team.
Check this tweet from the Detroit News Tiger beat writer Lynn Henning upon hearing the news yesterday that Antonetti told the media that Manny Acta’s job for 2013 was safe (and rightfully so may I add):
Larry Dolan presides over an owner-dictated gutting of a once-strong Indians team, and we’re talking about Manny Acta’s job? Insanity …
â Lynn G. Henning (@Lynn_Henning) August 7, 2012
Lynn is right. Even from the outside, the Dolan’s have a negative image.
The problem they face is that the Indians are their business, not their play thing. They are in this to make money first and win championships second, no matter what is said publicly. Again, they have every right not to deficit spend, but any sort of goodwill they had in this town is long gone. They have alienated this fan base to the point that they are dead last in attendance and the core of diehard Indians fans is shrinking by the year.
I am an Indians season ticket holder that organizes my group. Over the last two years, I have had to beg a couple of people to stay on and a few others to add more games just so I wouldn’t have to give up my seats. One of those people emailed me yesterday morning and said “Does anyone want my seats for Sunday, I’m done with them. Go Browns!” I know this winter I will for sure be losing people and will have to search high and low just to be able to keep my seats, which have been in my family for decades. My father, who would have turned 70 today, is probably spinning in his grave.
I’ve said this many times, I bleed Wahoo Red, White, and Blue. I grew up loving the Indians and going to games with my father and brother in the 80’s when nobody was there. I am old enough to remember the bad old days. Well, those days are coming back, if they aren’t here already. It is a direct reflection on the ownership. I’ve been slow to come around, but I am finally here.
It is time for the Dolan family to find themselves a Dan Gilbert or a Jimmy Haslam and get out.
Larry Dolan paid $323 million for the Indians in 2000. According Forbes Magazine’s MLB Valuations List published in March, the Indians were valued at $410 million. If the Dolan’s are so concerned with making a profit, here is their chance. Get Mark Cuban on the horn. Call Dan Gilbert and check his interest. The clock has struck midnight on this ownership group.
It is time to do right by the city they love so much. Sell the team to a billionaire.
200 Comments
Wait until you see the remake!!! The classic “Red Dawn” has been remade and instead of the Russians visa vie the Cubans invading the homeland it’s reportedly the North Koreans.
You should read this because I don’t think you fully understand revenue sharing and since you’re posing as the resident expert here, I don’t want fans to think the agenda you are pushing is accurate because it’s not.
A common misconception is that the Competitive Balance Taxâthe money that teams pay when their payrolls exceed a certain level, also known as the luxury taxâis used for revenue sharing. Luxury tax money is redistributed, but not in the same way as revenue sharing.
Revenue-sharing money comes from two pools. One is central fund revenue, which comes from national television and radio deals, Major League Baseball Advanced Media, merchandise sales and the newly formed MLB Network. Each of the 30 clubs got a check for about $30 million in 2009 through this arrangement.
The other pool is the one that has created tension between small- and large-revenue clubs, as it is the one that transfers money between franchises. This pool is made up of net local revenues, such as ticket sales, concessions and media deals that each club negotiates for television and radio. Against that money, each club is hit with a marginal rate of 31 percent, which is applied across the board to each of the 30 clubs. (The only exception comes if a club happens to be in the midst of stadium construction, which temporarily relieves a portion of its local-revenue obligation.)
After all the numbers are added up, money moves from payors (the high revenue clubs) to payees (low revenue clubs). MLB declined to say how many clubs were payors and payees for revenue sharing last year. Baseball’s collective bargaining agreement simply says that a team must use its revenue-sharing money “in an effort to improve its performance on the field.”
I was forged in the pit that is the PD’s comment section.
$323M in 2000, adjusted for inflation, is $430M in 2012 money.
So technically the Indians are worth less than they were.
Dolan is a phony, has he ever spent on outside free agents? Yet they over value their own free agents like Sizemore who breaks his fingernail just waking up and is out 6 months! The lie was they’d spend when they were close/time was right, well guess what, Kipnis, Brantley, Santana and Chisenhall are all up here and we’ve needed a RIGHT handed power stick for what, 2-3 years now and it hasn’t happened!
And Shapiro, what a joke, they promoted this guy and he lived off what John Hart acquired for those teams to contend from 2005-2007.
Thank John Hart that CC Sabathia, Victor Martinez, Fausto Carmona, Jake Westbrook and Peralta were all signed, drafted or traded for by Hart (before 2002) and contributed to the winning teams from 2005-2007. Shapiro has lived off one no brainer traded when he acquired Lee and Sizemore from Montreal for Bartolo Colon which even Peter Gammons said every team wanted. Then Shapiro parlays John Hart’s players and his one good trade (maybe the Hafner trade also for the 1-2 years he was productive) and goes from GM to President? Come on man!
I sensed something; a presence I’ve not felt since…
That’s a valid point, but show me another investment vehicle since 2000 that has yielded 31% return.
No better example of that than the Rays, though their market is a far messier affair than the Tribe’s.
The Tribe finally has their very own Ori!
So it’s okay for their team president to lie to fans about it? I don’t have a problem with the team deciding to make money, as long as they are honest about it. They weren’t, they lied, and now they are facing the backlash that comes with that. They lied because they knew that this would be the reaction, and they wanted to dupe the fans for as long as possible.
Feel free to disagree, but I see very little evidence that this team was committed to winning in the least. They were happy if they fell into winning, but they had not interest in actually investing in that winning.
yeah but who do you want as an owner Illitch or Dolan? I mean seriously stop making excuses.Just because everyone does it doesn’t make it right. And it also does not mean I have to like it or support it.
The Q has the third-highest capacity in the NBA, which drove down the capacity percentage. Butts in seats matter more.
I see John Hart on MLB Network and sometimes imagine if he could do anything here again. Of course I can’t forget that when one stud SP was needed in ’95 and ’97 it didn’t happen. And this was with an organization that had more OFers then it could field andan owner who did pay. Now you have teams trading starting pitching all over the place. Sigh.
Shapiro added Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Travis Hafner, Brandon Phillips
he also acquired Choo, Asdrubal, Carlos Santana
the drafts were a joke and the fact that we were able to compete and had the talent from 2005-2008 (even though 2 of those years injuries derailed us) is a testament to Shapiro’s trade prowess (he turned dud prospects and veterans into useful prospects – struck out on trades a bunch too, yes).
The most frustrating thing to me is that nothing changes. Everyone can see for whatever reason we aren’t doing things the right way. Still somehow they just keep doing the same thing over and over again
gold
apple/google stock (and others)
Cleveland always gotta be backward, needed an ace then and acquired bats, needed a bat now and acquire more pitching (Jimenez)
Choo, Asdrubal and Santana weren’t part of the 05-07 contending teams. That’s the years they made real noise. The last few they start decent and fade and these are Shapiro’s and Antoinetti’s players and we see what they’re made of over a whole season.
yes, I am fully aware and generally don’t discuss the “common pool” when discussing revenue sharing since it is just that “common” (MLB rights that get distributed evenly).
from the ones that are the “payees” the best links I could find in the past have shown the Indians to be in this list in 2011 but above the threshold in the other years (which makes sense since our payroll was inordinately low in 2011). This is likely the biggest reason that we “made” money in 2011 if you are to believe the numbers from Forbes.
now, that money we “made” is also likely why Shapiro/Antonetti can say that we are budgeted to “lose” money this year. basically as long as last year’s gains cover this years losses, then we are good.
he said “fill the stadium”
And one of those bats was Kevin Alka-Seitzer too! Compared to those teams though the one now needs practically everything.
Well for me this is where the ownership is supposed to step in and either they don’t get it or even worse they accept it. If they are in baseball as a hobby to win a championship they couldn’t be further from it. If they are in baseball as a business then they clearly have a customer base which is unhappy with their product. So…
of course Hart had a hand in those teams as it wasn’t long after he left, but you have to give Shapiro some credit as well as we don’t do anything those years without Grady, Hafner, Lee, Millwood, Wickman, Betancourt (Pestano before we had Pestano)
heck, even some of the minor guys he acquired were key pieces (and many of whom he then flipped for better players): Broussard, Blake, Crisp, Boone
yes, the drafting has been terrible. that’s on Shapiro for not finding someone better for it and not realizing that the system was setup to plug big $$ there to exploit market inefficiencies. but, the one thing he had was the ability to trade nothing for something.
well, I don’t know. for all the grief that Antonetti rightfully deserves, he was able to access that we needed pitching more than hitting (of course, he picked the wrong pitcher to acquire)
Ubaldo’s contract was just as appealing as his pitching. Antonetti thought he hit a homerun instead he got caught admiring his shot and instead of running out of the box he only ended up on second. Just like his team he failed to advance for over a year and a half now.
Brandon Phillips* – I will always include an asterisk next to his name for the shoddy way he was handled once he was here. Shapiro lost points there.
Oh and you somehow overlooked Lee Stevens. Don’t let it happen again! đ
exactly blame whatever ya want its not working
Have you watched any of the last ten games? We have the worst pitching staff in the majors (5.16 r/g). Our offense is slightly below average. What RH bat was going to score twelve runs a night?
Well, after 2011 it did look like things were on the right track imo. I agree that this year’s colossal failure should mark a new direction. If heads don’t roll in the front office, I’ll be out there with you guys and my pitchfork.
Where are you getting the 31% number?
That’s Tribe speak not lying. When they said that ownership would “spend when the rime was right” what that meant was resigning their own mediocre player. What did you think it meant they’d sign someone else, someone who would contribute? The Indians live in the grey areas don’t forget, it’s what they do!!!
I agree. People don’t have to support this team. But don’t be surprised then when payroll continues to drop and people start tossing out the possibility of relocation.
And apparently the Dolans can afford their expensive sports team. They’re making $30M a year on it while being last in attendance!!!
I’ve seen the damn scores. Way to base we need more pitching off 12 games. Have you seen the WHOLE season and seen how many runs they score? Kinda hard to take the mound knowing your offense cant score a lick.
They needed Hunter Pence last year, not a pitcher who faded in the 2nd half.
Those numbers I was referring to ARE for the whole season.
League avg. offense R/G: 4.47
Cleveland Indians offense R/G: 4.23
League avg. pitching R/G: 4.40
Cleveland Indians pitching R/G: 5.16
.76 > .24
“Kinda hard to take the mound knowing your offense cant score a lick.”
So Ubaldo sucks because our offense is slightly below average?
2 winning records since Shapiro has been GM or president for over a decade. Thats all I need to see.
Those numbers are skewed by whats happened lately. Remember when Lowe was 6-1 and the staff started decent? The bullpen is good so whats been the excuse all year, hitting and namely no right handed bats.
he got a double out of that deal? I could have sworn it was a warning track flyball (at least so far)
Derek Lowe went to 6-1 on May 15th, 2012.
At the time, the Indians had 157 runs scored (for seventh best in the AL) and 167 runs against (for third worst).
Even then, our pitching sucked, our offense was mediocre, and baseball-reference was awesome.
the same Hunter Pence that has batted worse than all but 3 of our regulars this year (yeah, he was great last year)?
(and yes, he would be an upgrade in LF and better for the team over Ubaldo, but if we are going to go the deal “left on the table” then I’ll go keeping Pomeranz and White to get Gio Gonzalez that offseason. We needed pitching more than hitting this year)
even you included the 2006 season though. and I add the 2008 season. those 4 years we had all the pieces needed to compete for a championship. 2/4 of the years injuries derailed us. and we completely choked down the stretch in ’05 and up 3-1 in ’07.
but, we had a real good thing going those years (after the ’01-’03 teardown and rebuild).
however, this rebuild is not going to plan
You obviously haven’t seen the new KIDS FUN ZONE!
2001 was for sure John Hart’s acquired talent. I’m looking at Shapiro’s record after his little run (05-07) with half of Hart’s players and it isnt good. He’s the one we’re judging here and his merits alone. The farm system is and has always been a mess for Shapiro, it isnt until he acquires other teams prospects that half the time hit that Cleveland even gets close to a 500 record…The guy is overrated in my opinion.
Come on Philly has been crushed by injuries, namely no Howard so Pence wouldnt be asked to carry a whole lineup, just be a right handed bat that can bring production and balance the lineup. For Cleveland he’d offset all the dang left handed batter we have.
No, they need the same pitchers they had last year to produce like Masterson and Tomlin. Did they (pitching) suck last year too and did they need to add pitching last winter based on last years production or did they need some right handed bats? Think logicly. if you honestly think what they had a left field and first base was enough to win the division in April you are dreaming…Who could have seen Masterson and Tomlin take a step back and Fausto get busted for a fake identity.
I just can’t win even when I’m generous I take a hit. Man, you people in this town really are tough! LoL
You see the A’s celebrating another walk-off win with Reddick dressed as Spiderman giving Crisp two whip cream pies? That’s how you do it.
http://www.csnbayarea.com/baseball-oakland-athletics/athletics-talk/Magic-behind-Amazing-Pie-derman-revealed?blockID=751377&feedID=2539
At the end of 2011, our offense was at 4.35 r/g (league avg 4.46) versus our pitching at 4.69 r/g (league avg 4.43). So yet again (.11 vs .26), our pitching was objectively farther behind than our offense.
Tomlin was the regression we all saw coming (peripherals were bad).
Carrasco was lost for 2012 last August.
Carmona-Hernandez was terrible last year.
Masterson seemed to have it click last year.
Ubaldo’s peripherals looked good for us last year (despite his standard stats looking bad).
So, without Ubaldo, we had 1 definitive starter for 2012 (and Jeanmar/McAllister/Huff battling it out for backend spots). Still had SP2, SP3 open at the very least.
and yes, we needed RHB as well with it being either at 1B or LF. but, the pitching need was greater than the hitting need.