While We’re Waiting … End of a Tribe Blog, Avoiding ‘Redskins’ and Bad Browns Offense
October 1, 2012NFL Week 4: Winners and Losers
October 1, 2012Tony Grossi has been a different guy since jumping over to WKNR. I’ve said it a few times. I also said Pat Shurmur looked like a different guy before he shrunk back into the ugly cocoon of negativity and churlishness once the Browns sale was announced. I digress.
Grossi seems to be enjoying his freedom from the Plain Dealer. Even if you still don’t like the Browns’ most tenured beat reporter, I think he nailed his post today about what he would do if he was Browns coach.
The plodding, 1980s-era fullback-tailback run game is not working here. Itâs not only not working, it is deflating everybody. Richardson spends too much time running up the ankles of fullback Owen Marecic or guards Jason Pinkston and Shawn Lauvao. He needs room. They get in his way.
The Browns have to spread out defenses with their formation. The NFL likes to think it invents every new trend in the game. Sorry. The college game is far ahead on the offensive side. Thatâs why Bill Belichick visited Urban Meyer at Florida for so many years â to get a leg up on his NFL rivals.
I recommend the whole post. It seems spot on to me. The Browns have some weapons now, and a few scheme adjustments would seemingly benefit the team greatly. Not to pile on Owen Marecic, but his presence on the field usually indicates an obvious run. His inability to punish anyone by catching the ball out of the backfield makes him even more one-dimensional.
It kind of reminds me of all those running plays last year where Alex Smith went in motion the exact same way probably 10 times per game. At least he caught the ball some.
[Related:Â Cleveland Browns Game 4: Winners and Losers]
51 Comments
I can’t say that I disagree, especially when our O-Line is struggling a bit more than expected
(although I guess the TEs help shore this up a little) and Maerecic is more-or-less worthless.
Marecic hasn’t been blocking badly, but the bottom line is that the Browns aren’t performing well when they telegraph runs. Some teams can line up and beat you anyway, but the Browns aren’t plowing thru people this year. Just aren’t.
Admittedly, he played better against Baltimore (most times) than I have seen him play all year. But there were still plays where he was pretty bad.
Hard to spread the field when no one respects your receivers ability to catch the ball.
i agree with grossi and craig. and, it’s not like there isn’t alot of NFL WCO tape on spread formations. NO & GB both run lots of spread formations and run WCO passing trees out of them. Philly does it less, but they have some as well.
Yeah, sure, why not. It’s not like things will really get much worse. But, our receivers are still subpar, our QB is still in the learning phase, and Pinkston and Lauvao are still going to get beat at the point of attack. To expect noticeably improved results would be foolish.
This is like 4th grade analysis. What precisely does Grossi have in mind when he says “spreading out” the offense? Does Grossi he really think that Shurmur and Childress just need to “spread out” their formations and all of sudden the offense will be better? Opposing Defensive Coordinator: “Uh oh, those Browns now have an extra WR on the field and no FB. What do we do now? We are so confused. They appear to be “spreading” the field.”
I don’t understand the point of articles like his. Total waste of time. This is classic peanut gallery commentary – criticism with no substance or depth.
Are we watching the same games? Marecic consistently gets pushed back behind the line of scrimmage by everyone including cornerbacks.
I disagree. They can run the same mix of plays without telegraphing them and putting people on the field who have been relatively useless. The tight ends + Marecic haven’t exactly been giving the Browns an advantage running the ball. They certainly don’t give the Browns an advantage passing the ball. Take Marecic off the field and one of the tight ends, and it should open up the passing game and also give Trent Richardson a bit more room to operate. He’s been working in very congested situations almost exclusively when handed the ball.
What in the world are you talking about? Grossi is talking about getting rid of the two tight-end + fullback + running back formations, and it’s a valid point. We’re not getting anything out of the fullback in those formations (for those who think Marecic is blocking well this season, I wholeheartedly disagree). If you bring in a wide receiver for the fullback, then the defense has to counter by taking a player out of the box to cover the receiver. It’s no secret that some of our best plays have been draw plays to Richardson. Why? Because the defense reads pass, follows the receivers down the field for a few yards, and by the time the defense sees that it’s a run, there’s several more feet of free space for Richardson to roam. Richardson is very adept at breaking arm tackles, which is what happens when the defense has to cover more space. When he gets bottled up at the line, it gives the defense an opportunity to get a shoulder into him and make a form tackle.
I believe Shanahan has adapted much of the spread offense this year to run the plays RG!!! was most comfortable with in college. Works well there.
We definitely need some help with the run. Shurmur’s shying away from it. Last week against Buffalo we ran 12 times for very little yardage because we never adapted to their players asigned to Richardson. This week the Patriots planned to run a lot against Buffalo and one back who is not famous ran for them ran over a 100.yards.
Meanwhile, we’re going more and more with passing to that point where offensive coordinators say, “if you’re passing that much, you’re loosing”.
The WRs have proven for three years now they can’t catch yet people still want to give Heckert a pass and say what a great job he’s done drafting. They stuck McCoy with noone to catch the ball and they turned around and did the same exact thing to the next QB.
I agree.
The TEs are the best part of this team if anything put Cameron in the slot ya know kind of what they could have done for the last two years with Evan Moore. I’m all for anything that gets Marecic off the field but honeslty there isn’t a better WR option then Cameron on this team. But wait this isn’t the WCO and Shurmur has shown ZERO ability to be imaginative since being named head coach so good luck.
Heckert didn’t draft MoMass or Cribbs. He drafted Little (bad pick in my opinion, but many would say he still needs time) and he drafted Gordon & Benjamin this year (definitely need time, but I think they have great upside). Who are you killing Heckert for drafting or not drafting? Would we be any better off if we’d moved up to grab Michael Floyd or Justin Blackmon? The reason he’s done a great job drafting is because he’s shored up a bunch of other positions (one CB, one Safety, DT, one DE, probably RT, RB, TE, possibly QB). He didn’t really address WR until this year… why not give those guys some time to figure out the NFL before saying he’s failed at drafting WR?
Well, it really is 4th grade analysis though. It’s pretty much “this isn’t working, so we should do something else”. His talk about Weeden doing this at college is stupid, because well college is a completely different animal. His point about substitutions being pointless is dumb, and reeks of “I can’t be bothered to think deeply about this”. When addressing the other viewpoint, his best argument is “who knows”. “Who knows” is 4th grade analysis, and not anything productive, in any way.
Surely, you saw more differences than that between how the Browns and the Patriots played against Buffalo.
His reasons are juvenile and incorrect, but his point is still valid… that’s what I was saying. If spreading out the defense didn’t work in the NFL, nobody would do it. Why do they do it? Well that’s probably going to be a different reason than why colleges do it. In college they do it because the defensive speed isn’t fast enough to cover the space. In the NFL, I think they do it to create more opportunities to pass the ball and to get better matchups in space.
Forget Massacre never liked his selection regardless of who did it. I don’t think any amount of time Little is given will turn him into someone who can actually catch the ball. It didn’t work with Braylon Edwards and he was a far more accomplished WR then Little.
As for Gordon and Benjamin I haven’t seen anything yet which would lead me to believe either has great upside as you say but I will agree they deserve more time. To long a list as far as drafting goes but I don’t like the jockeying he’s done to get into a position then the execution of who he’s drafted. Moving down in the first round to draft a DT, moving up to select a RB in Hardesty, drafting Little and Marecic are just a few.
As for shoring up a bunch of positions he’s filled 50% just if I go by what you posted. 1 CB you need 2 to start, 1 safety you need at least 2 to start, 1 DT they have Rubin the best acquisition, 1 DE you need 2 to start, maybe a RT, maybe a RB, a TE, and maybe a QB – and that’s in 3 years. Of those other then Haden who was a top 10 selection I wouldn’t exactly be beaming about his draft record especially if you don’t include this past draft which included a top 4 overall pick in Richardson.
Lastly Heckert’s been on the job for three years and you said it yourself. He didn’t really address the WR position until now. And he addressed it with two rookies one in Benjamin who is an undersized speed orientated wasn’t a #1 or even #2 option at the U of Miami and Gordon who played in the Big 12 and who didn’t play football for over a year. I guess that worked out so well with Little that Heckert decided to repeat the strategy. All of this to help a rookie QB who was annointed before ever taking a professional snap who played in a spread offense in the Big 12 where all they do is score (did you see West Virginia vs Baylor this past weekend where WV defeated Baylor 70-63?) and had a WR named Blackmon to throw the ball to.
Oh and on top of all of this coaches like Shurmur and Childress are the two most responsible for helping to improve and better these players.
You have to have players who can do something starting with catching the ball that’s why teams spread the offense out. If you can’t start by catching the ball then it doesn’t matter what you do. You can’t compare the Cleveland offense with anyone else in the leagues because it’s that bad. Watch some other games and see what they do it makes the Cleveland offense look like a slow motion Pee-Wee league team.
It is a false dilemma to state you are killing Heckert over the draft. He could just as easily gotten a proven veteran via free agency during these three years.
Teams who are successful spreading out in the NFL have the talent that allows them to do so. Sure, the Browns can spread it out, and maybe catch the opponent off guard for a series or two, but they still lack the talent to successfully chuck the ball around like that. As soon as teams realize that the only thing the Browns are looking to do is draw a defender out of the box to give Richardson more room, they’ll just bring the defender back, and now we’re down a blocker.
The reasoning has to be sound and logical for a point to be valid. I get incredibly frustrated with sportswriters who’s argument is simply “it doesn’t work, so try something completely different”. We need analysis about what the Browns can do well and how we can exploit that. If the truth is that they simply lack the talent to do anything that well offensively, then I don’t want to hear from the couch coach.
The problem is that we don’t have a run-blocking line, true fullback or very good blocking tight ends. I said this when we drafted Richardson and I think it is a big reason we were unable to run the ball last year as well.
Did you just insinuate that lining a TE up in a WR slot is an innovation and/or imaginative? How far our play calling has fallen…
Why would it be foolish to expect different results? The spread formations simplify routes and reads for the receivers and QB, which should make it easier on young players. Its a style that Weeden is far more comfortable in, particularly the shotgun. Opening holes between the tackles for fullback lead runs is far more challenging (due to having to hold blocks for longer periods of time) then blocking for draws, and pitchouts which you see more of in spread formations. The offensive line hasn’t done a terrible job passblocking (9 sacks, which is the NFL average so far) So you would be easing the burden on everybody, making young players more comfortable, and maximizing the skills of your two best offensive players. Why is this a bad thing again?
You will see improvement, providing your lifespan is long enough.
In order for the Browns to change what they do on offense they must first change their head coach.
A wide receiver named Blackmon who oh by the way hasn’t looked any better than Josh Gordon so far in the NFL (nor has the consensus next guy taken, Michael Floyd), so maybe it was Weeden who made Blackmon look so good? I think you might be getting a little too caught up in this 0-4 start. The Browns were never going to be very good this year because they’re just too young. Rookie QBs throw interceptions… it’s part of the adjustment to the speed of the NFL. Benjamin has looked like a good find so far and deserves more playing time. Don’t forget about Winn and Hughes at DT… they have both looked very good. We didn’t draft a DE, but we’re getting good production for free agents Parker and Rucker. Heckert may have also found a couple gems in undrafted free agents Craig Robertson and LJ Fort. Heckert’s had some misses in the draft, and I agree with you that Greg Little is one of them, but I think that he’s done a better job than most could do in his place.
Only for this team, only for this team.
That’s simply not true… the Bears did this last year. They had horrible wide receivers, but they managed to get Matt Forte the ball in places where he had space to work. The Browns could do the same with T-Rich. This note goes for Steve as well, but you can’t just ignore a wide receiver simply because a team has bad wide receivers. They are still playing in the NFL and if they’re open, they will get the ball and catch it. If a QB sees that a cornerback, safety, or linebacker is cheating in to stuff the run, they’ll exploit it. If a team is unable to exploit it, it’s the fault of the coaching and play-calling but not the formation. Our team has the talent to make defenders pay for cheating to the run, and frankly I don’t think the film will show that teams are doing this anyway. I haven’t seen teams “stack the box” against us… on the contrary, they seem to actually be respecting Weeden’s arm strength.
Add this to Weeden telegraphing every throw and we have a seriously telegraphed offense.
Feels like I have heard this somewhere last year as well.
I know what Blackmon has done or hasn’t done so far I pay attention to the league as a whole. It could have very well been Weeden making Blackmon look better I think that’s exactly what Heckert probably thought I prefer to think of it more as a mutually beneficial relationship. I’m not caught up in the 0-4 start I predicted 4-12 or 5-11 at best months ago. The INTs don’t bother me by Weeden sure a couple were downright horrible but as you mentioned those are to be expected with a rookie QB. At least Weeden has shown signs that he can learn from mistakes but more importantly make plays. Now just imagine if he had some WRs who could not only catch the ball but make plays as well. As for the defense I can’t really speak about it especially the LBs because they play one game then disappear the next. That being said I’ve liked what I’ve seen out of Robertson when he’s played but again that hasn’t been alot. As far as Heckert doing a better job then most, well, lets just say I don’t completely buy into that thinking.
pitch richardson the dam ball on wide open formations its working for washington.or short screen they have done it once what once dont they watch collage filmstrips.the one screen was 22 yards.he is the playmaker pitch him the dam ball
Well then sir, let us shake hands and go our separate ways (shout-out to Journey)
You countered your own argument though. You can’t have one playmaker and expect to do much if anything. Whether it’s the Bears or this team that won’t work. That’s probably why Chicago got Brandon Marshall and drafted Alshon Jeffrey. You did hit on the other problem however. If you don’t put it all entirely on the WRs not being able to catch then create then perhaps there is a problem with the offense itself. I say it’s both. I say not only does Weeden not have the benefit of decent WRs but he also doesn’t have the benefit of a well called offense. Basically the players Heckert has brought in don’t mesh with whatever Shurdress is trying to do.
You surrender? đ
“Never give up. Never surrender.” – Tim Allen
But no, I can see I can’t get you to see the moves from Heckert the same way I do, so I am going to be a quitter and quit.
Ah lol okay well no we won’t agree I just can’t sorry. That being said Heckert will leave the team in far better shape then he found it. That’s as far as I can go.
This, right here. Concentrated awesomeness.
Winner. Shut it down, boys.
I tried to watch a collage filmstrip once, it didn’t move oddly enough. Just sat there with a bunch of pictures all jumbled together. Pretty boring if you ask me.
It might have been one of the “magic eye” thingys. Did you try relaxing your eyes? Sometimes the image POPS out when you do that. I’ll bet anything the hidden image was a dam ball – though I’m not at all certain what that is.
I think it’s more foolish to expect the Cleveland Browns re-arrange their offensive sets based on the advice of Tony Grossi.
But running an offense both the QB and RB are more suited for with the oLine given more help on blocking could see a noticeable improvement quicker than running the telegraphed plays we have seen
Weeden was in a more comfortable situation because he had a first round NFL receiver to throw to, with a great o-line, and played in a conference that didn’t bother to play defense.
I don’t think there’s much evidence that a spread would be better for Richardson or Weeden. Richardson should thrive in any situation, as long as he stays healthy. Weeden was successful in college because he was on one of the most talented teams last year and college linebackers are too slow to keep up with the spread, which is not true at the next level.
Sure, like I said, why not. But the problem is the severe lack of talent on this team.
Wrong Weeden was in a more SUCCESSFULL situation because of the reasons you listed. Comfort is a function of famliarity. His comfort and most likely success would increase with a system he knows. TR would be good in any system but if his team is better pass blocking he will be better off running spread sets
Do you know how long I spent at the mall trying to see a schooner in one of those things? Finally got kicked out when I told some kids the truth about the Easterbunny
Oh yeah, lots of differences, but we were talking about rushing plays.
Lack of talent = biggest problem, no matter what offense they run.
Anyone know where I can get any dam bait?
…couldn’t resist
There’s a lot of comfort in knowing your O-line will keep you upright, and that your receivers are much better athletes than the guys covering them.