While We’re Waiting… Counting on young talent
May 17, 2013Brian Hoyer, Brandon Weeden and what it all could mean
May 17, 2013I love my city. There is something special about our little community. We are all bound together by our misery. It is no secret that Cleveland is nationally viewed as a dying city, trying desperately to rebound. There are hundreds if not thousands of people here that do their best to promote programs to invigorate the town. The Greater Cleveland Sports Commission is one that comes to mind. But if there is one thing that all born and raised Clevelanders share, its our passion for our local sports teams. No matter where we may live, we represent our teams, perhaps even more loudly if you don’t live here.
That’s one of the many things I love most about Cleveland and its residents, yet it is also one of the things that bothers me the most about them as well. Now before jumping all over me, hear me out.
I am 37 years old, so it is not as if I was born yesterday into this painful culture that is Cleveland sports. If you read this site regularly, you know I get it. I have zero illusions that this is anything other than a “Browns first” town. Anyone who doesn’t believe that notion must not have been paying attention over the last 13 years when the Browns were as close to the bottom of the NFL as you can get. Year after year, they pick in the top 10 and draft day is our Super Bowl.
The Browns have been to exactly one playoff game, which was 10 years ago, and they lost it after leading 33-21 with seven minutes to go against their hated rival, the Pittsburgh Steelers. They have only had two, count ’em, two winning seasons since the return in 1999. And it is not like either of those seasons were division titles with 12-4, 13-3 records. The 2002 team snuck into the playoffs at 9-7 with a last game goal line stand against Atlanta and received help from two different places to make their “new era” playoff debut. The 2007 Browns, while 10-6, were the beneficiaries of a soft schedule where they beat just one team with a winning record – the Seattle Seahawks, at home, in overtime.
But no matter what happens. No matter how bad they are, no matter how many regime changes they have, no matter how inept the head coach may be (yes, I am singling you out, Pat Shurmur), no matter how sloppy and boring the play on the field may be, everyone comes back for more every single year. I know I do. My cousin Steve, nine years my senior, has been telling me for as long as I can remember, “cut me open, and I bleed brown.” I completely understand. It is important to stick with your teams win or lose.
What I can’t understand is the lengths people go in this town to put the Browns on such an extreme pedestal when you compare them with the city’s longest standing Major League franchise, the Indians.
When the Indians go through a bad stretch, the casual fans turn them off and act as uf they don’t exist. Yet a 2-9 Browns team would still get everyone’s full attention.
You can tell me all you want about the disconnect between the Dolan Family Ownership, the front office, and you as a fan. I’m sure you feel as though they have cheated you since buying the team from Dick Jacobs in 2000. Full disclosure, I have not been their biggest supportes either. It is not as if the product on the field has been that spectacular. But consider the 2005 Indians won 93 games and missed the playoffs thanks to a final week Cleveland-esque collapse. 93 wins at the time were the most for any team in the Wild Card era without advancing to play October baseball. In 2007, they ran away with the division and were up 3-1 in the ALCS, one win away from the World Series. I went to 40-plus games that season and in a pennant race in September, the crowds were in the 20,000’s.
I have no illusions that the mid-90’s are coming back. That was the perfect storm for the Indians. A booming economy, a brand-new stadium, a star-studden, power-hitting club that was the darling of the sport. But this organization deserves more from you, the fans of Cleveland, right now.
The Indians are currently tied atop the AL Central with the Detroit Tigers, who are built like those mid-90’s Tribe teams, except with better starting pitching. They are coming home this weekend for a series with Seattle and the weather is supposed to be perfect. There is absolutely no reason that all three games shouldn’t draw 30,000 each. But they won’t. And last night is a prime example.
Around 6:30 PM, it came across my Twitter timeline that the Browns had signed QB Brian Hoyer to a two-year contract. Hoyer was cut earlier in the week by the Arizona Cardinals. The way the sportstalk radio shows and Twitter reacted, you would have thought this was on the same level as the Indians hiring Terry Francona to be their manager. One tweet after another, one column after another, one mention after another – it was all Hoyer all the time.
I am sure that the former St. Ignatius star is a great guy, but let us be real here. He was undrafted out of Michiagn State, made the New England Patriots as a third string QB, spent three years there as a backup to Tom Brady, then was drafted over and replaced by Ryan Mallett. He failed to make any roster last year and signed mid-season as a street free agent with Pittsburgh, where he stayed for a few weeks until Ben Roethlisberger was able to come back from injury. He was then picked up by the Arizona Cardinals, who were desperate for a QB the last two weeks of the season, again because of injuries. He made one start. The Cardinals thought so highly of him that they traded for Carson Palmer and eventually let him go after the draft.
So the Browns and GM Mike Lombardi, who was said to be high on him, scooped Hoyer up yesterday and added Hoyer to their QB stable.
Yet here we are in Cleveland, talking obsessively about a third string QB signing, dissecting it like it will make any bit of difference, and making it the lead story in town.
I know, I know, this is “Browns Town.” But you know what, it shouldn’t even be more than a blip on the radar because there is a REAL story going on right now, and it is going way too unnoticed for my taste. THE INDIANS ARE IN FIRST PLACE!
Spare me the “they were in first this early the last two years” take. Anyone who watches baseball and this team can tell you that Tito Ball is far superior to Acta Ball. They don’t need to win every game 3-2 anymore. Much maligned GM Chris Antonetti and his boss Mark Shapiro have completely reshaped this roster into something everyone can get excited about.
Michael Bourn and his speed and defense are here, setting the table like Kenny Lofton used to at the top of the order. Nick Swisher is on board to provide that fun-loving, hard-nosed attitiude in the clubhouse while embracing his Ohio roots, crushing baseballs all over the diamond, and playing superb defense at first. Mega Mark Reynolds is destroying pitches like we haven’t seen here years. Asdrubal Cabrera and Jason Kipnis have shaken off their slow starts and have begun to explode at the plate, coinciding with a 12-2 run that vaulted the Tribe to the top of the division. Michael Brantley has taken that next step and has become one of the most clutch hitters on the team.
Justin Masterson has regained his ace form. Their has been a mini-resurgance from Ubaldo Jimenez. Zach McAllister is pitching like a young Jake Westbrook with his ability to take the team deep into games each and every time out. Scott Kazmir has been a big find as a reclamation project. The bullpen depth is once again the envy of the AL. Best of all, the team is managed by the irrepressible Terry Francona, who is as respected as any man in the game.
So please, do yourselves a favor. Come out and support this Indians team. Make THEM your top sports priority right now. They deserve your attention. The signing of a third-string Quarterback in mid-May, doesn’t.
225 Comments
I’m simply giving my thoughts/opinions/ideas on possibilities for the low attendance and nj0 and Steven are using them for shooting practice. On top of that Steven feels the need for statistical/empirical evidence to back up my opinion. I feel like I’m in a game of “I know you are but what am I”?
I believe I heard on MS&LL that season ticket sales have fallen to something like 5,000. Les talks about it frequently in fact he has talked about it alot this week. Bruce Drennan does as well but he’s on for multiple hours so I can’t always hear him.
Frankly, I was hoping to enlist you to do my research leg work. The pay is terrible, but the pride that comes with it lasts a lifetime. Interested? Huh?
Plenty of places put out that “reports” say that season ticket base is X, and it goes around and around in a big loop, feeding itself, but none of the places actually have something official (or even remotely official!) or on the record.
Why don’t you just come to that conclusion on your own. Why does it need to be everyone else’s conclusion?
Sneaky
Milwaukee is a beautiful town. That’s all I’ve got.
I do believe that Cleveland took a much harder economic hit in the last 10 years than Milwaukee did. That can do a lot for business comfort in managing expenses.
You don’t like that people critique your opinions? Don’t put them on a discussion board. That’s how it works, you get to say your opinion, and people get to respond. And god forbid that people use facts and data to make an argument.
And here’s an example of what I’m saying Garry – Scene reports a number, Levine picks it up and reports a number, the PD (or whoever) picks it up and runs with a number, and despite no one actually having proven where they got it, everyone just easily says it has to be right.
Why oh why is the attendance at the Jake having such a affect on everyone’s level of enjoyment when it come to this team? I drive my fiancé nuts with all the baseball I watch, just cuz I don’t drag her to the park every other day doesn’t mean that I’m not a true Tribe fan.
Well my conclusion is that global warming isn’t happening because I only look at what I want to look at and refuse to listen to other opinions on the same data. Why do I need to come to the same conclusion as the people looking at all the facts and putting them in the proper context?
You are named Dolan, which one are you related to? ;o)
I don’t really care for that moniker because every city says/thinks it. You always hear players say they have the best fans. It goes with the territory.
Welcome to the party pal! LoL
You’ve met God too I’m sure!
Think what you want. I really don’t care. I just have a hard time keeping quiet when I see poor arguments that aren’t supported by the facts.
Thanks for enlightening me Steven I really had no comprehension of how this all works. I thought it was like an adult blog where all you had to do was type, “Ohhhh, ahhhhhh, yessssssssss!”
I wish I was a Dolan.
You wanna go to the strip club tonight bro?
I said attendance was what it was and got insulted I have no idea why some of the posters on here have such an issue with attendance but judging by the number of responses in this thread it’s clear they do. I don’t sweat the small stuff, let them.
This is not an argument. You are expressing an opinion. I am disagreeing with that opinion. You are not some baseball scientist who has been doing a study about Cleveland baseball fans. I am not trying to convince you that there are plenty of Indians fans out there, I am telling you that I am an Indians fan and I haven’t been to an Indians game in a while because I now live in Columbus where the economy is better and I was able to find a job. Getting to the stadium used to be higher on my priorities but I am still a huge fan.
That makes one of us but in a previous reply you said, “You know, it’s not the attendance that bothers me. I am named Dolan so really don’t care,” this is what I meant.
But in all honesty I wouldn’t have wanted to be a Dolan, Gilbert and especially Lerner. Maybe even a Haslam now. Other then the $$$ and getting to see what other real professional sports teams look like, play like, of course.
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Opinions!! Steve said it!! We are talking about your opinion.
I am not questioning anyone’s fanhood here. Never was. You can be the biggest baseball fan ever and live in a city that isn’t a baseball town. I’m questioning and presenting facts that the region does not, as a whole, care about baseball as much as other cities with MLB teams. That’s it. I don’t see where I ever said you or anyone else are not real fans or something. I have not asked any to prove their fan credentials cause frankly it does not relate to the points I’m interested in.
BINGO!
Just pretend your watching Fox News and you’ll understand how it works.
I, apparently poorly, demonstrated that not all opinions are equal. Hiding behind the idea that, well, it’s just your opinion and we’re all allowed to have opinions is anti-intellectual. Some opinions don’t hold up to scrutiny.
Oh damn he did didn’t he? Expect a retraction soon! HAHAHA AND THERE IT IS! What a gem:
I, apparently poorly, demonstrated that not all opinions are equal. Hiding behind the idea that, well, it’s just your opinion and we’re all allowed to have opinions is anti-intellectual. Some opinions don’t hold up to scrutiny.
OMG! Have a nice day.
Doh! Working and typing. Should have been “not named”. Believe either that story or that it was a Freudian slip and I let the cat out of the bag.
No worries I’m not like Steven and need everything spelled out for me. I won’t require you to provide evidence in the form of identification either in order to prove what you are saying is in fact, fact. It’s Friday…sports a plenty and women abound I as they say am out of here!
That’s a common trend I’ve noticed about the discussions I get into on the internet. People seem to think I’m actually invested in this when in reality I’m just bored at work and want to kill time by arguing points while searching the net looking for evidence to defend my pov. That’s not to say I don’t believe what I say, but in mind these are more like good natured bar room debates than do-or-die supreme court cases.
Yeah, I already know you are in the all opinions have to be equal camp. Now go ahead and make some smart-aleck reply that is more personal attack and responsive to the point at hand so you can get the last word.
I think that’s what you are not understanding. When you hop on the interwebs and start spouting off about all the facts and data that you have about how Cleveland does not support the Indians, you are in fact, questioning everyone’s fanhood. I bring up someone else’s “credentials” because I feel like mine are being questioned and I want to know what gives someone else the right to question those said credentials. What is your end game here? Are you looking for someone to break down and admit that they have lost their faith in their team? This isn’t L.A. man.. good luck with that.
I doubt that many people still interested in posting about the Indians on a Cleveland sports message board have lost their faith. No one is expecting that, and it is quite different to say that the town, as a whole, isn’t supporting the team well than to single you out. No one is doing the latter.
But if the data shows that Cleveland isn’t supporting the Indians, what do you want people to say? Pretending that things are fine doesn’t fix anything, and ignoring a problem frequently just lets it grow out of hand.
I saw that there were 182 comments on this article and got excited for you, TD. Then I saw that it was just Steve arguing against the world. At any rate, good article TD, I like that you took a firm stance on this. I may not live close enough to actually attend a game, but I’m loving listening to the team on the radio and catching them on TV at home and in the bar whenever I can. The summer is so much more fun when then Indians are competitive!
You are on a Cleveland sports blog arguing with Cleveland sports fans about their lack of support for the Cleveland Indians. What did you expect?
Steve’d.
That people would reflect honestly upon the situation, and not make flimsy, always-moving, excuses? I’m not calling any one person out specifically, and there is no shame in saying that Clevelanders, as a whole, aren’t really into baseball. You’re way too defensive about this, and it’s confusing more than anything else.
Everybody wants this to be a place where you get patted on the back and told congratulations for sharing your opinion instead of having it critiqued and analyzed? Has anyone here ever been in the real world?
Ditto. Worst ultra-elongated comment thread I’ve ever seen here. All heat, no light.
Everybody wants this to be a place where opinions are respected and debated rather than doused in gasoline and burned alive. People here would have a lot more respect for you if you used a different angle to your arguments… when you don’t give respect, you don’t earn respect. That’s a fact in the real world.
Yeah, that’s my end game.
Who have I doused in gasoline and burned alive?
Garry has freely admitted to making up numbers, something that would earn you zero respect in any field. And his source is unverifiable “reports”. That his thought process was even entertained is a lot farther than he would get in the real world.
I wasn’t talking about Garry’s argument… just talking about your general commenting style. It’s like you’re lying in wait to crap all over somebody else’s comment as soon as you find one where you have some data to argue it. Surely you can see how this would be infuriating. We’ve talked about this before… would love to see you propose a new idea on here… something that isn’t just an immediate negative reaction to a comment or to the story itself.
…..and then there’s the substitution factor. When the Browns came back, so did the season tix from corporations. And the Cavs during the L****** J*****es years picked up plenty too. Leaving, of course, the Indians season tix base to twist in the wind, since many, if not most, corporations were going to sign up for 2-3 season tix pkgs anyway, booming economy or not.
Your post has 193 comments. Craig’s post on Hoyer and Weeden has 13. Maybe interest in the Tribe here is underestimated.
I’ll admit that I don’t respect Shamrock’s opinion, as he has proven to
be a needling troll time and again. But I have attempted to
constructively respond to anyone else, including Garry in this string of comments, but he chose to ignore most of them.
So, it’s the data thing again. This is mind-boggling. People are upset that I am adding data to the discussion? And yes, it seems that you want this to a place where everyone pats each other on the back for saying their opinion. Why can there not be a discussion? I’m not presenting the data with hostility that the other person is wrong. Asking questions, and thinking critically about what was said is useful.
Nothing in this thread was a new idea. We’ve rehashed all the excuses over and over again. When there is something new to come of it, I’ll be sure to post it.
I love how you gave cred to the “out of towners”, because I often have o explain to everyone I meet why I am a Cleveland fan. I’m sure living in Cleveland, you don’t have to explain every time you just want to watch a game or chit chat sports
There was a story about season tickets sales increasing after the Swisher/Bourn signings, but I forget the numbers. I don’t get any sense that Shapiro, et al hold those numbers as some deep dark secret, either.
There’s definitely opportunity to add your own thought. This is a community. You can talk about anything you want. What ideas did this article give you? What’s on your mind that you think might be interesting to other Cleveland fans? Post it. The way you see yourself in this place is the lone hope… the one guy who will tell it like it is. The truth is that all of us argue on here, we are just more pleasant in the way that we do it. I mean, surely you have noticed that your comments are often downticked… it’s not because of the content of the comment, it’s because it always comes off as “you are wrong and here’s the right answer”. That style will never get much love on here no matter what the content of the argument is. Again, that’s real life… the way you deliver your argument makes a difference. If you never show respect or appreciation for another person’s comments and only point out where they are wrong, how does that go over in the real world? The same way it goes over here.
Well, I did express my ideas in a post that is lost somewhere in this thread. That TD hit the nail on the head, especially with that last paragraph.
You want some kind of mea culpa for my presentation? Fine. My apologies to any offended. I’ll be more pleasant. But the fact of the matter is that many people are just upset because they don’t like the data being presented. And if the right answer is in the data? What am I supposed to say?
It seems like you’re assuming I’m sitting here with some pseudo-facts that I’m waiting to pounce on people who make a misstep. That isn’t true, or close to fair. I’m going and pulling the data relevant to the discussion at hand, which doesn’t happen enough around here.
Apparently the Disqus monster and I had a disagreement on where to place this comment, so here goes again
Well, I did express my ideas in a post that is lost somewhere in this thread. That TD hit the nail on the
head, especially with that last paragraph.
You want some kind of mea culpa for my presentation? Fine. My apologies to any offended. I’ll be more pleasant. But the fact of the matter is that many people are just upset because they don’t like the data being presented. And if the right answer is in the data? What am I supposed to say?
It seems like you’re assuming I’m sitting here with some pseudo-facts that I’m waiting to pounce on people who make a misstep. That isn’t true, or close to fair. I’m going and pulling the data relevant to the discussion at hand, which doesn’t happen enough around here.