The renaissance of the Cleveland sports fan – Scott Raab on LeBron, Josh Gordon and Jim Thome – WFNY Podcast – 2013-06-24
June 24, 2013Cavalier NBA Draft Film Room: Anthony Bennett
June 24, 2013School is out, the summer months have officially arrived and the Cleveland Indians continue to produce a quality winning percentage within the confines of Progressive Field. As interest in the Tribe continues to improve, demand for tickets has increased dramatically from the basement levels of April and early May. But as this demand has increased, a select group of Cleveland fans has expressed angst regarding the team’s pricing structure, specifically in regard to the pricing and availability of upper reserve seating which had typically allowed fans access to the stadium for under $15, oftentimes as low as $8.
With a quick scan of available seats in Progressive Field’s upper reserve section, fans will find that these seats will cost them $211, with a large section of seats along the first-base line and the right field corner being unavailable. This has lead some fans to believe that the team is holding back the lower-cost seats of yesteryear. Fuzzy math leads to statements surrounding price hikes which can be extrapolated by the old “family of four” metrics. What was, however, is no longer the case.
“There are a lot of misconceptions out there,” said Curtis Danburg, Indians’ Senior Director of Communications, in a phone interview with WFNY. “The fact is, there is no longer a lower-priced, or $8 ticket.”
Like the majority of their peers, the Indians moved to a value-based, dynamic ticket pricing system roughly five years ago under the premise that not all 81 home games are created equal. Supply and demand dictate that games earlier or later in the season should cost less than those in the middle of the summer. Games against the Kansas City Royals or Oakland Athletics should cost less than those against the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox. Mid-week games should cost less than those on weekends. But it is not just the specific opponent or setting which determine pricingâthe team has also employed several other value-based mechanisms which allow fans to lower the cost of their experience.
Like the Cavaliers and “Flash Seats,” the Cleveland Indians have rolled out what is called Fan Pass, a paperless ticketing system that allows for the electronic transfer of tickets from fan to fan as well as to fans from the team. Tickets can be electronically stored on credit cards which can be swiped at the gate, allowing fans to not only skip time spent waiting in line at the box office, but allows them to pay less for tickets then they would have to via the more antiquated paper method. In addition to the evolution of the electronic ticket process and the inherent behavioral changes required, the Indians have also employed a mantra called “Buy early and save.” If fans buy tickets to any Indians game in February, they not only pay the cheapest price, but they get the best value.
Where is this best value? The Indians say that it can be had in the lower reserve and mezzanine sections. There are obvious reasons why the team would prefer to have fans sitting lower: It is not only more aesthetically pleasing on television, but it also allows for higher levels of service due to the concentrated staffing of concessions and cleaning crews. All upper reserve seats carry the identical price of $21. As seats in the upper reserve section sell, subsequent sections do openâas evidenced by higher attended games like Opening Day. But as these sections open, the price does not decline as one moves down the first base line.
“We understand that fans are value-conscious,” said Danburg. “For that fan, there is value there. If fans prefer to wait, we understand that as well, but on the other side of that is the value equation. The misinterpretation is that the Indians are holding back their lower-cost tickets and that just is not the case.”
A quick scan of the Indians’ peer group and it becomes evident that the $21 upper reserve tickets are not abnormal. Upper reserve in Kansas City’s Kaufmann stadium will cost Royals fans $26. Milwaukee’s Miller Park is priced at $24. San Diego’s Petco Park has their upper reserve tier priced at $27. Only the Arizona Diamondbacks are lower, priced at $17. When one looks at the average ticket price in Major League Baseball, only the Atlanta Braves, Pittsburgh Pirates, Diamondbacks and Padres have a less-expensive average cost. Only the Tampa Bay Rays, Padres and Diamondbacks have a lower average “fan cost” as estimated by Team Marketing Report. For 2013, the Indians have the largest drop of any team year-over-year at a -9.4 percent2.
For those fans looking to pay less than the requisite $21, their salvation can be found in the upper level of Progressive Field’s left field bleachers. Where the lower bleachers are dynamically priced, upper bleachers are $10 through Fan Pass and $12 through a printed ticket. For the misconception that there are a severely limited number of upper reserve bleacher seats available for each Indians home contest, Friday, June 21 against the Minnesota Twinsâa night that featured the infamous Sugardale dollar dogs and a locally renowned Fireworks displayâthere were 1,211 $10 tickets in the upper bleachers. The rub is that these seats were sold out by June 10, eleven days before the actual game. The lack of low-priced seats available in these instances is a function of fans scooping them up in advance. Fans who bought early saved.
Taking a macro look, prior to the Indians’ recent home-stand, there were approximately 500,000 seats available at a price point of $20 or less, equating to roughly 10,000 per game. Of the 44 games remaining, 38 had upper bleacher seats available.
The Indians will be the first to admit that one of their goals, as with any business, is to maximize revenue. The dynamic pricing strategies, and various mediums of obtaining tickets, however, are done so to also ensure that the fan experience is maximized. While fans who opposed the team’s current strategies will tout walk-up numbers which could be impacted by the lack of lower-priced tickets, the team takes a bigger picture approach and prefers to look at overall attendance. Fans who buy in advance can seemingly ensure that they can be cared for in a more appropriate fashion.
“If we know how many fans are coming down to the ballpark, we can better serve the fans,” said Danburg. “It helps us provide better service.”
This may be one of the unfortunate byproducts of the evolution in the entertainment-based service industry. Prices being higher during the day of the game are truthfully no different than other facets of the entertainment industry like airlines or hotels. Sure, this causes angst and pain. Change is difficult. But as the industry evolves and the use of technology grows, the Indians will continue to rhetorically ask: “How can we best service our fans while maximizing revenue?”
The team will readily admit that they are in the minority when it comes to closing off levels of the upper deck. This is the obvious byproduct of attendance totals which simply do not meet those that were tallied when the stadium was opened back in 1994. But, again, the team says that this to better the service levelâwhen fans are in a more confined area, concessions can be staffed better, restrooms can be cleaner. Potentially most important to the fans, there is no $8 ticket which is dangling in front of them like a carrot on a string. Sure, this means that fans are forced to pay a higher price, but this is only in the instances of those who wait until the day of an impending game. Progressive Field, by every metric used when compared to peers, continues to be one of the cheapest average tickets in baseball.
Think prices are hindering “walk-up” sales? The top three teams in single-game tickets sold thus far in 2013 are the Colorado Rockies, Diamondbacks and Brewers. For their upcoming weekend series, their upper reserve tickets are priced at $28, $25 and $24, respectively.
Within Progressive Field, bleacher seats can be had for less than $10. Lower reserve seats can be had for prices well below the rest of the league. And if it’s and upper reserve seat that is yearned for, they too can be purchased for a price that is in lockstep with the rest of the league. The advent of third-party sites3 is merely an additional medium for fan disposal, assuming that “value” is the ultimate goal. The Indians insist that said value is there; it simply takes a little bit of advance commitment and the willingness to embrace the technologies employed.
“We want our fans to be educated consumers,” said Danburg. “With the Fan Pass, the value is there and its easier to get into the game as you skip waiting in ticket lines. We realize it’s a behavioral change that everyone, including the team, has to get used to.  We understand that takes time.”
- Via Fan Pass; $24 at a ticket window [↩]
- The Fan Cost Index comprises the prices of four (4) adult average-price tickets, two (2) small draft beers, four (4) small soft drinks, four (4) regular-size hot dogs, parking for one (1) car, two (2) game programs and two (2) least expensive, adult-size adjustable caps. [↩]
- Like WFNY Tickets, which can get you into Omar Vizquel bobblehead day for less than $20, for instance [↩]
72 Comments
âIf we know how many fans are coming down to the ballpark, we can better serve the fans,â said Danburg. âIt helps us provide better service.â
This may be one of the unfortunate byproducts of the evolution in the entertainment-based service industry. Prices being higher during the day of the game are truthfully no different than other facets of the entertainment industry like airlines or hotels. Sure, this causes angst and pain. Change is difficult. But as the industry evolves and the use of technology grows, the Indians will continue to rhetorically ask: âHow can we best service our fans while maximizing revenue?â
Tricky tricky or perhaps Indians fans are behind the times. Personally I think things have gotten “gimmicky” but then again I don’t go to games anymore. In fact I go to more minor league games then anything.
Great job on educating us all Scott. I had heard about the whole ticket thing many times on MS&LL but they never explained it in detail.
Seems that the “buy early and save” policy would work better in a fan market not in our current mindset of “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.”
Maybe the Indians would do better undoing the damage of the past few years by swapping the dynamic pricing for something more consistent and which might promote walk-ups/impulse buys as the on-field performance generates excitement. They can even comp an upgrade some seats to make it look better on tv. Then, if/when they’ve recovered some of the crucial season tix sales they can do what other teams with stronger support can do to max profits.
The Fan Pass is awful. My family had 4 tix to a game. I went early with my son and my wife and daughter were going to meet us later. All 4 tix were on the credit card that both my wife and I have. When I got to the game with my son, I asked them for only 2 of the 4 tickets and they would not allow me to do that. They said that everyone from my group must be present in order to print the tickets. So if you use the fan pass, everyone from the party needs to be there at the same time. This is beyond stupid and pointless and it is a pain for families who want to arrive at different times. A complete fail (Flash seats at the Cavs allows families to arrive at different times so that is a much better system)
This is how the FlashSeats work at Quicken Loans Arena too. You’d have to transfer two tickets to a different card that your wife had in order to make it work for you. Clearly your circumstances led to an unfavorable experience, but to say that the service is “awful” is not fair. I myself am a huge fan of this type of ticketing, but maybe they could make it more clear BEFORE the game that all tickets for a given card must be printed at once.
I refuse to feel sorry for them about the attendance. From 2003-2007, most of which were horrible seasons for the Tribe, I had season tickets in the section now occupied by the “Budweiser Party Deck” in the right field corner. 8 tickets, guys in their mid-twenties who would show up sober and leave not-sober. Then management decided it was better to create this private seating section and try to relocate me to seats nobody wanted. I refused and have been to very limited games since (puppypalooza, work outing, etc), although I still follow the team very closely.
“We want our fans to be educated consumers”
You know what might help that effort? Actually educating your fans. This is the first I’ve heard of the changes Scott details here, and I’m far from being the only one. It’s not as though any of this has much impact on me as a ticket-buying fan (I might make it up to Ohio for 1-2 games a year at best, so I am generally just happy to be going to a game, ticket price be damned), but for folks living up there with the chance to attend more regularly, these changes seem…frustrating. Apparently the solution is to “plan ahead”, but that’s simply not always practical.
I have forced myself to understand the dynamic pricing, but ultimately it ends up ticking me off too. Supply and demand are real and pretending that they don’t exist isn’t a solution, so I get the Indians doing it. BUT if you charge more for the Yankees and Red Sox you’re kind of admitting that your own team is no longer the primary driving factor for value in a way. You’re letting the opposing team dictate value to a customer base that overwhelmingly wants that value to be driven by their own baseball team.
Maybe it’s too subtle to be real and I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, but it just seems to me that our whole psychology is out of whack in this town right now.
if those are the games that people flock to and the ones that sell the most tickets even when you increase the price, then you have no choice but to raise those prices (or just leave money on the table).
it needs to be marketed better like minor league teams do (hey, look how cheap it is to come on Wed/Thurs instead of the weekend!!!), but I don’t fault them for the strategy.
but, I don’t think the customer base overwhelmingly wants the price driven by their own baseball team. unless we are 90’s good, when there are 81 home dates, the most interesting teams will be the ones fans flock to.
luckily, the most interesting games I like (for Astros games) are the Indians, Orioles, White Sox (to root against), and Angels, which are not among the higher priced ones here.
I think you can mix it up. Have the “buy early and save” policy, but then also open up a dynamic market on twitter/facebook, etc. where you get a window to buy tickets at a reduced rate (especially for big division series).
Example:
Sunday morning @9am – Indians go for the sweep against the Twins today. Buy a seat by 11am and get 25% off your order!!!
That way you give those who buy early the general advantage, but give some incentive for the bargain hunters late.
hey, first thanks for being a season ticket holder. I wish that I lived in town so that I could be one, but oh well. major kudos for doing it.
but, 2005, 2006, 2007 were horrible seasons?
2005 – last week was brutal, but we were in control of the division the entire year until that choke job.
2006 – injuries killed our team and we fell apart.
2007 – 1 freaking win away from a WS title (that’s how much I respect that year’s Rockies fluke-job).
The Indians have a thing for these Party Decks and Suites…Teen suite? I wonder how well that’s doing?
They failed when it came to educating their potential customers big time! You would have thought they’d have informed people while contemplating it so that not only would they gain precious feedback but customers would be informed.
The Indians have some great idea far more then the Browns but they probably do one of the worst jobs when it comes to relating them to potential customers. They are also extremely proactive the whole rain delay thing the transportation last year yadda yadda yadda but when it comes to the daily small stuff I think they miss out.
I of course have no idea of what I’m saying is true I’m just giving an opinion to try and possibly explain some of the “missing links” that may be effecting attendance. I think we can all agree something is amiss because this years team whether it’s the actual play or all of the changes made to it, is highly superior to the past couple of years.
Tickets that are not only “value-based” but also “dynamic”? “Infamous” Sugardale dollar dogs? (Good work slipping in the corporate sponsor.) Man, I had no idea how much I was missing by not making it down to a game yet this year.
I need to get off the couch and embrace the value, apparently.
If it really is supply and demand that drives the prices, all the tickets would be cheaper. There’s clearly a supply…but if you can’t get 25k+ in your stadium, the demand clearly isn’t there. Otherwise, you’d have a packed stadium and you can really jack those prices up.
Not true FlashSeats allow you to redeem whatever quantity you’d like. I have gone back to the gates after going in and passed my card to a friend to allow him in at a later time. But I’ve also done what you said what you recommended, in transferring the tickets to another account, but I did this after being in the arena, not sure this can be done on FanPass since all tickets need to be redeemed at once. But I wouldn’t deem FanPass a complete fail, as it is still in its infentry, im sure as things like this come up the technology/features will be amended.
I understand exactly what you’re saying. I guess I just don’t want my baseball and entertainment dollars to be attracted to value propositions. Movies, TV, rock concerts and things like that don’t cater to your frugality. That’s just where we are since this team hasn’t truly been relevant since 2007 playoffs ended.
that’s a great idea, promoting bigger attendance and a general sense of the Jake being the place to be as the team heat up. I wonder if mixing these things are too much for a marketing department and even more confusing but … many of the commenters here had their formative fan experiences in this stadium and the team better figure out a way to get them back there with their own kids.
The system is smarter to have good matchups priced more, but when I see all of the upper deck in the outfield empty, why are you leaving the price of these seats at $21?
movies and rock concerts sure do cater to your frugality.
movies – cheaper to see movies before 6pm. in fact, most theaters are starting to make it even cheaper weekdays before 6pm compared to weekends. a bunch here in Austin have free kids movies during the weekday mornings (get them in and buying snacks) along with a bunch of other promotions (particularly for some older movies).
rock concerts – it costs more to go see Taylor Swift. you may think the Indians should be Swift, but they are there every game, so the ones you are paying extra for are the teams you get to see them against.
I just think this extends back earlier than 2007. I think it’s really how it’s always been here outside the 90’s (no Browns, Fratello boring Cavs, and the Jake being the financial equalizer to the big markets for those few years).
The Indians had 60,000 seats worth of unsold product last weekend because they were charging a price above what the market would pay. The fact that they are now trying to convince the market that they’re wrong is the most backwards thing I can imagine.
Sporting event tickets that are unsold are completely worthless, yet the Indians are more concerned about managing the additional cost of vendors and bathroom attendants. They want a smaller crowd for some reason. Which would be fine if they weren’t lamenting the low attendance numbers at the same time.
Airlines and hotels raise prices as supply diminishes, but they also reduce prices, both internally and through things like Priceline and Hotwire, when they have extra supply. More importantly, the Indians aren’t in the same market as air travel and hotels – they are in the market with movies, restaurants and concerts. Those products don’t see increases in price that coincides with the customer’s late decision. Whoever came up with the hotel and airline comparison was disingenuous at best.
You know about Taylor Swift concert prices do ya? Interesting.
The fascinating part of this is how backwards that is economically. The closer to game day the cheaper the seats should be since regardless you have the fixed cost of the game and if you sell 100 tickets for $21 it would be better still to sell 100 for $21 and 1 for $5.
You and your fancy economics talk! đ
Ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I was shocked when I went to the team shop last Saturday afternoon to get tickets for the Nats game, and paid 52 dollars for two 500 level seats. The kid at the counter explained the “dynamic pricing” thing to me (to a degree anyway). I figured I was getting gouged because it was a Saturday firework night game, but I was stunned when I found out that those crappy 500 level seats are still 20 something dollars even for weeknight games in April. Pretty disappointing, it wasnt that long ago that Shaprio was touting the fact that you could see a Tribe game for the same price as a movie. Love the team and I love going to games, but I think I’ll stick to bargain hunting on Stub Hub.
Not quite true – if people know the price drops closer to the game, and they know it isn’t sold out, they’ll simply wait and wait – and often never buy. Like this they lock in some fans, especially important with a team that isn’t quite as good.
At the end of the day even when there is a huge walk-up crowd it is a relatively small portion of the overall attendance. It wouldn’t make sense to lose your already likely dollars in hopes of selling a few more seats.
That’s the one aspect that I don’t get about the dynamic pricing – $20 is a psychological barrier for many. Having those upper deck prices at $18 each would be a big difference to people and I would think they would make up those $3/ticket on the uppers with a 17% increase in upper deck sales. But they probably have data that says otherwise…?
But if they sold tickets for lower they wouldn’t make up the difference even on the tickets sold. Airlines and hotels are only used by people who need them, they are not entertainment. You can’t quite compare those.
Sorry I see that was your point there. đ
Sorry Ezzie, I am talking economic theory, not anecdotes. You are indicating the demand for Tribe games is inelastic, which is not supported by any attendance evidence over the last two years.
The Indians have raised ticket prices in the hope that demand has increased because (as we always say in April and May), “the weather is nicer and the kids are out of school”. Just like the gasoline refiners raise prices because of “summer driving”.
my wife is more of a Carrie Underwood fan, but I think Taylor prices are up there.
checking: $92/ticket average for 2012. should have gone with Madonna apparently ($142/ticket).
http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/1481408/top-25-tours-of-2012
the indians should look into giving tickets away. let’s say 10,000 tickets become available starting in the second inning.
tickets are a fraction of what a patron’s total spend is. why not give away the $20 opportunity cost which in favor of recouping it with beer, hotdogs, and souvies that’s probably north of $30/head; north of $50 if you can get people to park in your lots.
i dunno. i’d do it or at least look hard at the idea.
As am I.
I do believe that their base is relatively inelastic. The people buying in advance will buy tickets; if they know it’s cheaper later they will pay less. That’s bad for the Tribe on both the revenue AND expense side. If the Indians are good, the walk-ups will come regardless. If the Indians are not good, they’ve at least gotten the monies from the people who are coming anyway.
I think you went too far, but I like the general premise.
I just think that 10K is too many to give away. it undercuts the value of the event and makes anyone that actually buys a ticket feel like a sucker (and therefore may not buy a ticket – instead, try to get a freebie).
cut that down to 1K and only on random days (if you are following the team on FB,Twitter,Instagram, etc.) and you have to “Find Slider” or some other person in Indians garb around downtown based on the picture or riddle or answer a trivia question.
makes it a fun scavenger hunt, adds people to the ballpark that ‘might’ spend money (as a college guy, I didn’t spend much or anything when I went to games; I was saving my $$$ for before and after the game, but I would have been all over free tickets), and makes it a more interactive experience overall.
exactly. tweak it any way they want.
the main thing is getting people to overcome their inertia and to roll on down to the park.
If you start twerking I’ll really wonder!
I’ve gone to dozens upon dozens of Cavs games with Flash Seats and almost every one of those games I have told them to print 2 tickets, leave 2 on the credit card for my wife to come later and it has never been a problem. I have had 0 issues with Flash Seats in probably 100 attempts but 1 issue with the Fan pass after 1 attempt
If it is relatively inelastic then they could give tickets away and not move the attendance needle at all. There is a pricing sweet spot where they can optimize both attendance and profit. You are indicating that the Indians believe they have found that sweet spot and it is the current pricing model?
Basically. And they realized that they get bad PR because people don’t get it yet, so now they’re trying to get better PR.
That’s an interesting idea, and may actually lead to younger fans becoming enamored with the team.
Or, more realistically, becoming totally disgusted with the team and writing them off forever. Hmm…nevermind. Not a good idea.
I completely agree with the $20 barrier being a big factor. The Indians clearly think it’s a $25 barrier. Which means they are seeing what they want to see rather than what the market is telling them.
As I’m sure you know, the objective is not to sell as many tickets as possible, but to gain the most revenue possible. That’s why we look at the intersection of the supply and demand curves.
The fact of the matter is that when the Indians had those seats (actually much less than 20k a night) so few people were buying them that managing the cost of personnel was an important factor.
The Indians don’t want a smaller crowd, they are just responding to what the market is telling them. Fans don’t want to go to games, which would be fine if they weren’t lamenting the costs at the same time, because it has proven that the cost actually isn’t the reason people don’t show.
They do this quite a bit. No, not 1k tickets, but there are countless ways to snag free, or deeply discounted tickets to those who actually are interested in them. The problem isn’t the lack of availability, the problem is that people aren’t actually interested in finding cheaper tickets.
I’ve had zero issues when using the Fan Pass. Granted, I haven’t had a complex/unique situation like the one you described above, but I presume it works very well for the majority of fans.
Was going to say this exact same thing earlier, but couldn’t get on at work.
I think they’ve discovered that the consistent pricing doesn’t sell them any more seats, and just costs them lost dollars for games that could go for more. I’ll argue until I’m blue in the face that the cost of the game is much further down the list of issues that Indians fans have, the numbers just simply suggest otherwise.
People have been much more likely to go to fireworks/dollar dogs/Yankee nights. You can sell cheap box seats to see the White Sox come to town on a weeknight in April and have sub 10k crowds. But fireworks or dollar dogs on a Friday in June can top 30k.
This is just the Indians responding to how the ticket buyers dollars are actually moving and finding ways to make a bit more revenue.
“You are indicating that the Indians believe they have found that sweet spot and it is the current pricing model”
Why wouldn’t you believe this? A ticket not selling well is not evidence that it is not making as much revenue as possible. There are numerous reasons why people aren’t going to Indians games besides the price.
It may not be exactly linear, but it’s still an apt comparison. Tickets for games are less expensive in February due to the supply being essentially 100 percent. Yes, this is also to encourage spending, but no differently than the process described above. Certainly, I could have included movies (matinee prices, for instance) in this mix, but felt it was wholly implied. I wouldn’t let three words take away from a 1500-word report.