Perception versus reality: The ever-evolving relationship between Mike Brown and Kyrie Irving
November 12, 2013Sweeping The Bengals: Can The Browns Pull It Off?
November 12, 2013I’m really concerned about the Cleveland Cavaliers. This isn’t a reaction to the loss against the Bulls or any other singular game for that matter. My problem right now is that I just don’t see it, and I think at this point in their franchise rebuild I’m supposed to be able to without this much trouble. Even squinting as hard as I can at the roster and how many of the pieces fit prototypical roles with some of their height and weight measurables, I can’t squint hard enough to see a team with playoff-level ability. When I see this team play actual games it’s even more difficult.
This isn’t pointed at Mike Brown. He’s only been here a minute and he’s one of the most qualified head coaches in the entire NBA. We all know he has his limitations, but the way this Cavs team is playing couldn’t have much to do with his coaching, and that’s why I’m so scared. I’m afraid this team simply doesn’t have the level of talent and ability required to compete at a high level in the NBA. My fears are that it’s not the result of lackluster coaching or a team that just needs time. My fear is that this rebuild has failed.
I know some of you are with me. This isn’t a hate-filled, rage orgy aimed at the mortgage monster and his tall, nerdy asset collector. I think regardless of what you think about the entire package that is Dan Gilbert, he is a prototypically good sports team owner with deep pockets. I also think Chris Grant’s strategies have largely been sound in terms of trading for value. It’s the result of the execution that has me scratching my head. This season is supposed to be a culmination of taking Kyrie Irving and the two subsequent drafts. It’s Kyrie and this iteration of the Cavs’ third season.
I don’t remember specifically, but I don’t think this looks like the LeBron Cavaliers that won 50 games in his third season. The Durant Thunder that also won 50 games in their third season started 3-4, but right now I’m having a hard time believing this Cavaliers team is as far along as that team was with Durant.
Maybe I’m making that up though. Maybe you never see it until it’s already here. Maybe it really does just take more time for players to mature individually and as a team with chemistry to compete at a high level. Maybe maybe maybe.
Again, this isn’t a hate-fueled post of negativity. This is a fearful post that patience might not be the missing ingredient. This is the concern that three wasted years of being a Cavs fan was squandered so that they could build a team incapable of doing better than Alonzo Gee as starting three. Sorry to pick on one guy because I like Alonzo Gee, but if that’s the culmination of three years of work rebuilding the franchise, I don’t know what to say. It’s the concern that this team also failed to land any kind of real star with their high picks after Kyrie Irving. I admit it might be irrational. I admit that it might be impatient.
I just can’t believe that right now watching this team and that I’m alone in these fears. I have confidence that Mike Brown can get as much or more out of this team than almost any other coach in the NBA. I’m scared what sum total “more” will add up to by the end of the season and moving forward.
87 Comments
I’m with you, Craig. Yeah it’s early, and maybe they’ll come around, but these first couple of weeks have been very disappointing. We don’t really look like a team, and despite coach’s well-known penchant for defense, it looks like some guys aren’t buying in.
I agree 100% with the content and tone of this post Craig. Well said.
I see a collection of assets that haven’t learned to play together. You are seeing glimpses from some of them already. Dion Waiters has had some decent moments this season…and appears to have made progress on his shot selection (though he still leaves a lot to be desired.) Tristan Thompson has shown big glimpses that he appears to be bigger than initially believed when we drafted him. Kyrie has shown defensive effort that we’ve never seen…though it’s affected his offense.
When those three in particular put their glimpses together in the same game, look out…because I believe. you are going to see some spectacular basketball.
Craig I’ll admit that I’ve been one of your biggest detractors…but I’m 100% on board with you on this one. I’m also a huge fan of Mike Brown and love bringing him back but I’m missing a lot with this team. Does everyone realize that this team is a hell of a lot closer to 0-8 than they are to…even 4-4? They are 1-7 against the spread and all of their losses haven’t even been close to covering. Point differential (whether or not how early it is in the season) says a lot. I don’t understand the fallacy that a lot of people (and Cavs announcers) have been saying regarding this team “battling.” Are you telling me they are battling their way to double digit losses?
Great post Craig. Most of the Cavs bloggers are preaching patience, but there are a lot of alarming trends showing. When Paul Pierce was being shopped, I thought he would be a perfect fit for the Cavs, showing a young team how to win (and filling the giant gaping scoring hole at SF), while not hurting Chris Grant’s all-important cap flexibility for 2014.
More than anything, I think this team needs a trade to remove some of its duplicate pieces (Thomson/Vareajo) and address some of its weaknesses (SF!!!!!!!!!). Parlay some of those “assets” into tangible players that can help the team win games. Otherwise, Grant will be out of a job before he gets a chance to make a big splash in the summer of 2014.
Sadly, I am with you. I’m totally cool waiting this season out, but, besides the KI & TT draft, I think we’ve missed twice.
I love Waiters’s attitude. I love how he can beat most players off the dribble. I think he’ll be a fine starting player on bad teams, or a #3 or #4 option on good teams for his entire career. But it’s not what the Cavs needed. Granted, he’s still got some developing to do. Maybe he has a TT-esque turn around this year and everything starts to come together.
Last year’s draft was an abortion. No player was a great choice. The best choice, however, was probably Oladipo (who, himself, is probably a top 10 but not top 5 guy in most drafts). But we couldn’t (arguably) take him with Waiters on the roster. This made Bennett the only non-chronically injured player with upside on the board.
Like you, I think Grant’s strategy was sound. But the execution may be off.
Agree with the progress Waiters/TT have made. But assuming the goal is to win it all someday (that would be my goal) and assuming LeBron doesn’t come back…do people realize for that to happen that Kyrie has to be a top 10 player in the league (very possible) and either Waiters/TT have to become a bonafide year in and year out all star?
Maybe you see Thompson/Varejao as duplicate pieces…but I see them as useful assets still. Especially if we’re going to have Bynum start alongside Thompson, having Varejao come off the bench helps that gap some. It’s good to have a pick and pop option out there…and Andy might be one of our better screen setters on the team.
We’ll see if Porter can shake this hip injury, but he wasn’t injured at the time of the draft, and he fit the hole in the lineup (plays the 3, big enough to defend bigger wings, can hit some 3’s) well.
I’m glad you completed your thoughts on Waiters, because I was going to mention how awful TT looked at the begining of last year. LOL He was still the same guy (gathering before attempting to dunk, getting blocked far too foten) that he was the year previous. Clearly that changed as the season progressed.
Unfortunately, in regards to last years draft, Chad Ford mentions that the Top 7 from this current draft (2014) he would take over ANYONE from last years draft. It’s not so much that “we missed” as it is that we didn’t have a lot of great options.
Unfortunately, we are stuck with what we have…and while I don’t think that we’ll have the 50-win season (like Durant had in year three) I think that we’ll look a whole lot better at season’s end than we do right now…and we don’t look terrible right now.
I don’t want to touch Pierce at all. He is so old and it’s evident. Would he be better than Gee? Sure. But it’s not any sort of actual answer, and we’d still be complaining about the same stuff next year.
Yeah, but his upside is questioned. He was expected to come in fairly NBA ready…and make some improvements…but his upside wasn’t off the charts like a guy like Noel, Bennett, etc…
I was a Noel fan first…then a Porter fan (from a fit standpoint.) Bennett was pretty low on my list…
I honestly think that TT will get there as a year in year out star. Of course, he also plays one of the two deepest positions in the NBA (PG/PF). I actually question Kyrie’s ceiling far more than I do TT’s. Kyrie is not an athletic beast…though he does have that ridiculous handle. So, for Kyrie to imrpove, it’ll rely strictly on his decision making and setting up his teammates. I’m not sure I’ve seen enough growth in those areas for him by now to feel comfortable to think he’ll ever show them. That’s not to say that he can’t/won’t continue to improve…but I think that once he gets used to consistently playing 2-way ball, we’ll be seeing him at his best very soon. Which is a good player…but maybe not good enough to be the #1 on a championship team.
All the writers here predicted 38 to 44 wins, and so far, the team has looked kind of like a .500 team. Some growing pains so far sure, but this is a team that should improve a bit as they get used to playing Brown’s defense, and how to work together more on offense. Considering how excited everyone was for a .500ish team, I don’t get the concern at all. How have our emotions swung so much in a couple weeks?
This is a team that had some serious flaws, and still does. No one seemed to expect it be a 50 win team, with a guy like Lebron or Durant after he made the leap. People have been generally happy with how the team is built, so let’s see if these guys can develop.
I agree with Ben, I don’t think Porter has any upside. In fact, I would be willing to bet he becomes a journeyman bench guy. A good addition to any team, but for being exactly what he is. Not someone you go to for major points and minutes.
I’m with you on this one Steve. I think that we will play better in our last 40 games than we do in our first 40.
Waiters off the dribble is my favorite Waiters. If he and Kyrie can find a way to make that work, I think we have something.
I think Porter is a guy who is classically underrated because we expect our stars to fill it up, and Porter does so many other things well. Guys with that size and length who show that much effort on the defensive end and can shoot that effectively don’t stay on the bench.
I disagree that this team has looked anything like a .500 team. As I said below, this team is a lot closer to being 0-8 than they are to even being 4-4.
Can we make a different comparison (even if at a different level)? How about the Heat when LeBron and bosh showed up? It took a good season until they really got in sync with one another; until then, it just seemed like they couldn’t play together or be on the floor at the same time.
I think that’s what we’re seeing with the Cavs, compounded by the growing pains still being made by Kyrie on D, TT with consistency, Dion with his shooting and movement and D, and Bennett with adjusting to the NBA – let alone Bynum on a new team off a long injury, Varajeo off an injury, Jack on a new team, Clark on a new team, etc. We need to give this a lot more time before we start calling things busts.
Alternatively, let’s just wait for a long homestand. 🙂
But the upside argument frequently gets us guys like Rudy Gay, where we seem to put the blinders on just shot creation, and don’t focus enough on the rest of the game.
Besides, with Irving and Waiters already here, the guy we took wasn’t going to get many chances to call his own number. A guy that could fit into the system, play off the ball, and effectively knock down jumpers may not have the highest upside, but it’s the piece that fits the enough best.
Craig, (as well as those who are about to abandon ship on the Cavs), here’s a link that I want you to look at for a hot second.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1987.html
Notice that this is the first year that Price, Harper, Hot Rod, and Daughetry played under Lenny Wilkins. Would you consider them a failure as well?
I’m not too worried about what they are against the spread, though the overall point differential is a concern, fueled by some road stinkers. But they’re one dribble off Irving’s foot away from being 4-4, so while the wins have been close, I don’t see how they’re close to 0-8.
While I love seeing his development off the ball, I really like seeing the additional dynamic of Kyrie working off the ball as well when Dion gets a chance at running the team. It makes use that much more difficult to defend.
Whoa…TT had a lot of upside when we drafted him. I’m not asking for Rudy Gay (in fact, I’m pretty much vehemently asking we never acquire him.)
I liked Porter way more than Bennett. I was merely pointing out that BenRM mentioned there weren’t any healthy guys with upside. Porter was a healthy guy, but not with much upside. You ignored that particular portion of the statement when you brought up Porters name.
Kyrie’s turnovers are far more concerning for me than his D. Other than that, I love the statement.
Well, we’re in agreement with Thompson, which leaves me scratching my head on why Porter is considered so low upside. Both are guys who aren’t going to be #1 options, but can fit necessary roles on offense, and do the dirty work that is necessary to win games.
TT had upside based on his athleticism (and length) which were really good for a 4.
Porter is a guy who has limited athletic upside. He’s not a freak of nature like Lebron, he’s not all-world athletic like Rudy Gay (who’s questionable work ethic/shot selection relegates him to volume scorer.) He doesn’t have unbelievable height/length like a Kevin Durant. He’s likely going to be a good glue player. But unless he gets a seriously sweet shot, won’t likely be more than that.
Good God. The choices were: TT or Jonas. Win for the Cavs. Dion or Barnes. Win for the Cavs. Go look AT THE FREAKING NUMBERS. It’s not even close!!
This is the worst post I have ever read. After all the Pollyanna BS on thus site for years about the Browns and Indians, you panic after 7 games played by the best run franchise in the city (and it ain’t even close)? Unbelievable.
Fact: the Cavs play defense and their superstar has had a pretty terrible start. And they’re still around .500
You know wjo’s in first place in the Atlantic? The Celtics. This whole thread is pointless…
Of course not, because they won….umm…They won…..Ok…I’m sure they won something, right? Maybe I’m just forgetting…
Barnes wasn’t the only competition for Waiters. Some would argue that Drummonds was another guy rated fairly highly there. Some people thought we’d take Thomas Robinson (to recover from our “mistake” for drafting TT the year before.) Others thought we might go for Jeremy Lamb to add a shooter next to Kyrie…especially after Bradley Beal went to Washington the pick before us.
Point I’m trying to make…and just to use your way of doing it…they are a missed Kevin Love 3 pointer, 2 OT nail biter, and a 4th quarter collapse away from being 0-8. Besides the Milwaukee loss you can’t reasonably say they were anywhere close to being winners in the games they have lost.
Porter’s wingspan measured at a quarter inch more than Thompson’s, I think you’re seriously selling his length short. No, he’s not Lebron, Gay, or Durant, but you’ve also just chosen three of the most freakish players in the league, it’s an unfair comparison. And not every “good glue player” is equal, again, I feel we focus too much on shot creation.
Actually, I think you lose this exchange. We are still closer to 4-4 than we are to 0-8. We had some things go our way to get those 3 wins…but isn’t that the way of a team that many expect to hover around .500?
For posterity’s sake, I need to note that I didn’t say a bad word about TT.
I’m not necessarily selling it short, but TT combines elite PF athleticism with his really good length. Porter isn’t nearly as athletic (particularly for a 3).
And having a sweet shot isn’t necessarily the same as shot creation. Porter doesn’t strike me as a guy who can threaten the 40/50/90 club in almost any respect. So that puts him as a lower tier player from a shooting standpoint. He doesn’t have the all-world athleticism like guys like Gay/Lebron. That limits him there. His ceiling is likely to be a good player. That’s not a bad thing. But that doesn’t put him in the world of Bennett, Noel, etc… in regards to where their ceiling is projected.
The Cavs current point differential (-6.1) is dead last in the east. I highly doubt the team that finished dead last in the east is going to be anywhere near .500. Therefore…they are closer to being the worst team in the east (right now) than they are to the #8 playoff spot. Look at point differentials from years past. Unless that improves with some blowouts then this team will sink very fast and lose tight games.
The team has been competitive in most of their games. Yes, our point differential is bad right now. That being said, sample size. It’s early. This is the beginning of Kyries (oft-injured) career. This is the beginning of Dion Waiters 2nd season. This is Anthony Bennett’s first season every being asked to play defense (something he’s done remarkably better than most of us likely anticipated.) There are so many things that have conspired against us to start the season. We’re the 2nd youngest team in the NBA. It shouldn’t be all that shocking that we’re not playing all that well.
That being said, we’re nearly one play away from 4-4 (the dribble off of Kyrie’s foot.) There need to be at least 3 things go wrong for us to be 0-8. We are closer to a .500 team than we are to a winless team.
I see where you are going with that and it is fair. I’ve been negative because I’m a little upset as to how things have gone. That being said, what does “competitive” mean? I don’t see how double digits losses to the 76ers and Bobcats and trailing the Bucks (without their 4 best players) by double digits for a lot of the game can be seen as competitive. I’m not too shocked. I think Craig put it best above. Shouldn’t we see…something more?
the issue is that Kyrie isn’t Durant or LeBron. he just isn’t. and, he has had a bad start to the season where we were likely betting on him carrying our offense while Mike Brown increased the defensive focus. so far, that isn’t working.
now, that doesn’t mean this is where it will stay. sometimes, teams just start to click and take off. sometimes, they stay in perpetual limbo. i’m not sure where we stand right now, but any halfway decent defense puts the clamps on our offense and our defense isn’t anywhere near good enough to make up for it yet.
it’ll be interesting to see where things go from here. can Kyrie rebound and become a dominant scorer? can Waiters/Jack effectively take some of the load? can Bennett contribute someting useful? can TT continue to be a very good player on both ends of the court?
and lots of other small questions, but they really come down to 2 questions overall:
(1) what is our offensive identity (example: Spurs is their pick-n-drive sets, Heat is LeBron+shooters, etc.)?
(2) what is our defensive identity (example: Grizz is wings-n-paint, Bulls is constant hustle, etc.)?
1. “This isn’t pointed at Mike Brown.” why not?
2. “He’s only been here a minute and he’s one of the most qualified head coaches in the entire NBA.” in that minute the team plays LESS like a team than they did with byron scott and with more talent.
3. “We all know he has his limitations, but the way this Cavs team is playing couldn’t have much to do with his coaching, and that’s why I’m so scared.” his ‘limitations’ are that he offers seeming little leadership and no offensive direction.
i get that many won’t criticize mike brown. jason lloyd is his primary ball washer, check out the ‘it was bad last year too and anyway offense isn’t the problem’ excuse after scoring 79 vs philly. but there’s a reason he got canned in LA after five games. AFTER FIVE GAMES. (the reason is that either he’s not a good coach or kobe and mitch kupchak are stupid. i know which of those i find more likely.)
i don’t know brown’s record when coaching teams without lebron and john kuester but to call him ‘one of the most qualified head coaches’ is to kid yourself that he had something to do with those 60 win seasons and to avoid hard questions as to what happened when facing good competition in games that mattered. (hint, brown was without adjustments against orlando or boston (and san antonio if you want to look at that four game finals sweep).)
Downtick for you.
1 – Why not? Because he has had less than a full season to work here.
2 – Byron Scott inherited a team with a bunch of veterans who lost their key player. So his initial term should look better. We started the season 4-4 in our first 8 games. We gave up 100+ points in 5 of our first 8 games defensively. We had a -2.63 point differential in his first season. His 2nd season, we also raced out to a 4-4 start. Last season, we were 2-6. We had a -6.38 point differential after 8 games. We gave up 100+ points in all but our first game. This season, we have only given up 100+ points in 2 games, one of which was a double overtime win against a surprisingly hot Philadelphia team. Maybe you can say that we played more like an offensive team under Byron Scott, but I don’t see how you can ignore the defensive play of the Mike Brown led team.
3 – Yes, his limitations are his lack of offense…except that we had some of the most effecient offenses in the NBA in his last 3 years here. Not just top 15 either. Top 5. So yeah…whatever. You know what we didn’t have under Byron Scott? Offensive or defensive efficiency. I liked the guy. I wish him well. It didn’t work out.
He was let go from LA after a full season and 5 games. How’d that work out for LA when it was all said and done again? How did the rest of their season go? Has it improved any at all since Mike Brown left? So nice try there too.
For you to imply that he didn’t have something to do with those 60 win teams is you kidding yourself. He was brought in to be a good solid defensive coach. He is more than qualified to do that. Then he was let go because our GM (since fired) thought that was what it would take to keep Lebron. Since then, he’s been brought back to coach this team and give them a defensive identity. Yes, Lebron was a huge catalyst to those 60 win teams. He was clearly the best player on the team. That was shown after he left especially. That being said, he joined a team with a legit All-Star in Dwyane Wade and a borderline All-Star (my personal opinion) in Chris Bosh. Two of the more talented players (and the two most talented teammates he’s had on his team outside of the Olympics). They’ve won 60+ games just once (last year) since forming up. Despite significantly more talent on the Miami Roster than he ever had here in Cleveland.
i love being worried about a sports team and not talking about the head coach. no dysfunctional fan behavior there, nosiree.
byron scott inherited a team that just lost the greatest player of the generation before he had his first practice and thus were consigned to the cellar for the next x years. the vets were there to collect checks, see jamison, antawn. scott’s job was to preside over that mess while knowing that his record would look like hell at the end of it. pretty selfless if you ask me.
[but separately and srsly: appreciate the downtick ownership. classy move.]
Yep, you forgot that the Cavs won 31 games in the year that I linked above, then they won 42 the following year, then 57 the next. Basically my point is posting FUD after the Cavs played 8 games is irrelevant, especially since they still have 74 games left in the season.
Charlotte and the 76ers have played better than expected this season. The 76ers especially have surprised people by pulling off upsets over the Heat and the Wizards. Yes, we flubbed against the Bucks. But, are you ignoring our win over the Timberwolves (who have only lost to two Western Conference Playoff teams and beat another one?) We were more competitive against the Bulls than the final boxscore shows (though…it was still a loss.) We’re going to look ugly in some games. That’s what you get when you have a .500 team.
Defensively, I think we’re tied in semi-closely with the Grizzlies, where we pack the paint and attack the three point line. We are trying to force mid range jumpers as often as possible.
Offensively…that’s a whole nother ball game. I think that is something that will fluctuate more based on who’s in the game. It should look very different when we have Andrew Bynum in the game vs Anderson Varejao.
I don’t think that the current team is something you can blame on the current head coach. Now, if we looked this offensively inept in his 2nd season, it would be different. He has very much said that he was going to focus on defense to start the season and when he feels his guys are ready to shoulder the load without all the practice time geared towards it, he would then add in some offense.
I think fan expectation that Kyrie would continue to shoulder the load is what has led to the issues that we see with the team. Under Byron Scott, Kyrie could do that because Kyrie wasn’t asked to play defense every play.
I think that Byron Scott didn’t get a fair shake of things. I would most reasonable fans would agree with you and I on that.
I also think that ragging hard on a coach when he’s had less than 10% of a season to do his thing is unreasonable. I think that the Lakers firing him 5 games into his second season was extremely irrational.
And as for the downtick…I figure it’s only right that everyone can see when I uptick. Might as well let em know when I downtick too. 😉
I didn’t like the tone of your post or the steps you appeared to take to get there. It seemed seriously flawed to me. I got no beef with you personally…just that one particular post.
Could have Kyrie, Harrison Barnes, TT, Bynum, and Oladipo or McLemore as your starting 5 – just saying
You realize Dion is avg twice as many points as Barnes, right? And is better all-around then either Oladipo and McClemore, right?
I am asking this in all seriousness: do you people follow pro basketball?
Grant has had 3 direct shots at finding the star to go with his star. There are all-stars in every draft even if they aren’t taken in the top 5, so he’s had his shots.
He’s staked his career on 3 eyebrow raisers: Tristan, Waiters and Bennett. If TT becomes a 17/10 guy who you can run scoring plays for in addition to all that hustle I’ll say “bingo.” Bennett is so out of it I’ll withhold judgment for a year (an astonishing thing to think about an overall first who had a full training camp). I think the key to Grant’s future is Dion. Dion needs to become a force because he’s a guard, and at this moment early in his second season I want him to come out all chesty Philly attitude, impose some will, break some opponent hearts. Do not like it that he still disappears for whole games at a time like he was out late partying, he needs to bring balls-out attitude even when his shot starts funky. I want to see him grow up, quick, because he’s not so physically gifted that he can get away with a hot and cold, freaky deaky attitude.