August 26, 2014

Do you want the Browns to lose for the draft? – WFNY Roundtable

WFNY_roundtable

Craig: It’s the most wonderful time of the year! Well, not for TD who prefers March Madness, but I digress. The holidays are here and it’s a confusing time to be a Browns fan. In the middle of fan appreciation week, there are lots of fans out there who probably don’t want the Browns to defend their home field this last time they play on it against Chicago this weekend.

Personally, I always want my team to compete and try to win. The chips will fall where they fall in terms of the draft and it’s up to the talent evaluators to make the most of their picks wherever they happen to land. That’s just my opinion on it though. I do see the downside of winning late, meaningless games at the end of the season.

The Browns ripped off four wins in a row in 2009, and while they ended up with Joe Haden, they also missed out on Sam Bradford as the number one pick. The Browns won five games in 2010 and ended up trading down in the 2011 draft to get Phil Taylor, but if they had been worse they might have gotten Cam Newton instead of the Panthers. We are all familiar with the Andrew Luck / RG3 draft too.

Right now the Browns have the sixth pick, but the Jags are streaking ahead of them and the Browns could move up simply by not winning. Anyway, you know where my opinion lies. Where’s everyone else on this topic? Do you want the Browns to make it a good fan appreciation week by winning or losing on Sunday against the Bears?

TD: Give me a great effort and a close loss. Losing to the Bears is nothing to be ashamed of. And with three games left, winning a meaningless game may be fun and all, but it will hurt prospects of potentially getting the QB they want in the draft. I know many people hate this line of thinking, but tell me, would you rather pick say, 4th or 7th? One extra win could be the difference.

Scott: I think we are being very presumptuous to act like winning or losing is solely up to the Browns. The Bears are a very good team. They have two 1,000-yard receivers, a 1,000-yard rusher who has also caught 70 balls out of the backfield, a quarterback who has thrown 13 touchdowns and just one interception…I mean they average 28 points per game, a mark the Browns haven’t topped but twice year.

Sure, the Browns showed they can “go toe-to-toe with anybody” but by no means do I think this is going to be a game that they can win by mere want-to.

Craig: That wasn’t the question Scott! :-)

Andrew: I’m tired of losing. I hate seeing the toll that losing is taking on the players. I know the Browns need a QB, but I just can’t root for this team to not win. I really like Chud a lot and think he’s done a great job getting these players to play hard despite having nothing to play for. I would love nothing more than to see that hard work finally pay off in the form of a win this week.

Kirk: I never truly root for the team to do poorly. I will, however, not be as upset when they do lose. I’m going to my first game of the season on Sunday, and while I’d like to see them win, I’ll settle for playing well in a loss and helping the quarterback fund for next year.

I think there’s a decent chance the team loses its final three games.

Ryan: The NBA has brainwashed me into being a believer of full on tank mode.

While it’s impossible to outwardly root against the Browns I will walk away from a loss feeling unscathed which is quite different than the usual knife in the gut Sunday evening feeling that haunts me early in the season.

Best case scenarios individuals like Gordon and Mingo shine but the team loses a close one.

I really want that receiving yards crown for Gordon.

Rick: I can’t root against my team. Can’t do it. I really can’t even be satisfied after a loss that draft position is bettered.

After a season is finished, I can get excited about draft possibilities. You play to win the game.

Kirk: I get the “non losing culture” thing, but a garbage win against the Jets isn’t going to keep us warm at night in the offseason. Dreams of a higher pick might.

——————-

So, what say you?

  • mgbode

    takeaways are in large part considered a random statistic. there are some teams that do well each year based on scheme (chicago under lovie smith), but in large part it has proven to fluctuate.

    i don’t know if those indicators are more or less important than yds/play, but they definitely matter to some degree as we can see some basic flaws in our defense and relate it to the statistic.

    anyways, what really matters is that we have made steps forward this season and that we can hopefully continue to move forward and become a defense that other teams truly fear facing.

  • Ezzie Goldish

    I was going to add “though they’re random” there. :) I should have not said concerned but that we could point to it as a reason for the points issue.

  • Ben Frambaugh

    They couldn’t fix everything this offseason. They focused on improving the defense first…particularly the front 7.

    They tried to improve the offense by giving our QB’s a better WR core to throw to. Who would have thought that Bess would get injured? Also, they brought in Campbell and Hoyer…who aren’t necessarily world-beaters, but are clearly better than Weeden.
    Since there wasn’t a surefire QB-of-the-future available where we were drafting they went defense. If you can’t get a QB, try to draft guys that help you get to the QB. Mingo has shown some promise as a pass-rusher. Yes, he has to work on improving his moves, but his athleticism and motor aren’t really question marks…so now it just comes down to experience.

  • Ben Frambaugh

    My fear with DQ is his age. He will soon start to lose some of that ranginess…and while he isn’t exactly a thumper (at least not a major one) he is fairly dependable as a tackler (especially when compared to many of his counterparts throughout the NFL where tackling seems to be a lost art.)
    Gipson seems ideal for that 3rd safety that you can bring in on Dime possessions…and even some nickel packages where you expect heavy passing. So no issues there.
    As for the Ward thing, he may not have missed as many games…but he’s had some nagging injuries that seem to keep him from playing 100%…and (in the games I’ve managed to watch) it seems noticeable to me. Maybe it’s because I expect to see it…and so I see it. I don’t really know for sure.

  • mgbode

    safety has just become such a tough position to play in the NFL now. it’s really hard to find dependable guys there at all across the league.

    for DQ, I also fear his age, but I really think our defense needs it’s Patrick Willis type guy over the middle of the field (hey, what defense outside of SF doesn’t :) )

  • Vindictive_Pat

    My gut tells me that even if the Browns lose out, Banner and Lombardi will probably surprise us all with their picks anyway. I can’t help but get a smarter-than-the-room vibe from these guys (and who knows maybe they really are). But would I be surprised that the QB that they really want is a mid-round guy? Not at all. Win or lose, I am going to put my faith in our front office and hope they don’t let me down.

  • Ben Frambaugh

    The only time I’m concerned with turnovers is when it’s offensive turnovers. I’d LOVE for my defense to get a bunch of them, but I don’t want my defense to rely on them (if that makes sense to you.)

    Anytime I see a team get on a good run in a given year because of turnovers, I pick them to win a lot less games the next year…because (as mgbode said below) they are a very random statistic.

  • Ezzie Goldish

    Agreed, which actually points well for the Browns.

  • Ladue Brand

    Do you really think anyone in Indiana cares about that ? Common, tanking is just a tool, just like trades or any other move a GM can make.

  • Garry_Owen

    I don’t think it is common, nor do I think anyone in Indiana cares about it. But we’re not from Indiana. We’re from NE Ohio, where football matters and tanking is shameful.
    (Were you being sarcastic? I hope so.)

  • mgbode

    also, we only have to wait 10-15 years for another QB to be universally accepted to be worth such a risk

  • Ladue Brand

    What does it matter where your from ? Jimmie Johnson admitted to tanking when he built the Cowboys, it’s a tool in a big boy league, were not talking some CYO league here. The NFL is no place for goody two shoes thinking, Like Vince Lombardi said “Winning is everything” and tanking is just another means to achieve it

  • Garry_Owen

    So you weren’t being sarcastic.
    I’m sorry you feel that way.

  • Ladue Brand

    Don’t be Gary

  • Garry_Owen

    So in all seriousness, who do we tank for this year?
    And when that guy doesn’t pan out, who do we tank for next year?
    And when that guy doesn’t pan out?
    Pretty sure when Lombardi said what he said about winning, he wasn’t talking about losing.

  • Garry_Owen

    But at least all of our good players will still be with the team in 10-15 years when the tanking finally pays off, right?

  • Ladue Brand

    Well I didn’t say tanking was the cure all, I just said it’s a tool that should be used, if your in the right position to utilize it. The Cav’s would have never gotten Lebron without tanking. I just think at this point in the roster development, tanking should be considered. I just want every advantage on May 8th in getting a QB.

  • mgbode

    JoeT will likely still be the best LT in the NFL if he wants to keep playing that long. I mean, he’s JoeT afterall.

  • Garry_Owen

    But, you’re implying that drafting a college QB is indeed the cure-all, and in turn implying that tanking is the way to get him.
    So, which college QB is the cure-all?
    We have 2 first round picks on May 8. Can’t we just as easily trade them both to get the cure-all (assuming he exists)? I mean, any team willing to trade would logically not be looking for a QB, so it doesn’t matter where those picks are.
    As for the Cavs, the NBA is not the NFL. But even if the comparison is valid, your point about getting Lebron proves the larger point. Which college QB in the draft this year is the Lebron equivalent?

  • Ladue Brand

    From a trade up scenario, it gives you more ammo. As far as the next QB cure-all, I can’t answer that. Some will shine, others will bust, it’s the nature of the position. The worst thing we can do is to be afraid of going after him. We have been bargain shopping for a QB to long.

  • Garry_Owen

    Unless Lebron is out there (and he’s not), tanking is the worst kind of bargain shopping you can do.

  • Garry_Owen

    All joking aside, I’m frankly starting to be just a little concerned with old JoeT. His first step in pass coverage is looking quicker and quicker every game. Looks like he’s trying hard – too hard – to keep up. Quick is a good thing, but anticipating the snap count (darn near false-starting every play) may not be the good kind of quick.

  • Ladue Brand

    Bottom line Gary is you find tanking unethical and I don’t see the big crime myself. Were not just talking about the first overall pick here.

  • Garry_Owen

    Unethical? No, I find it distasteful and rather diminishing to the game. But I agree we’re on opposite sides, here. If we tank the season, I hope that you enjoy it. I just can’t.
    But again, if tanking is ever appropriate, then we absolutely are talking about the first overall pick – because that is the place that the next Andrew Luck or “Lebron equivalent” will be drafted. It’s the only draft pick that arguably justifies losing on purpose.
    (Losing on purpose isn’t distasteful to you? Wow. I must be an old timer.)

  • Ladue Brand

    lol, of course it’s distasteful. Jimmie Johnson once sat down and talked of his trades and moves, so it happens. Now with that said it’s been a fun debate, I am sure your thinking won’t change, nor mind but duty calls here.
    Enjoy your day Garry !

  • Garry_Owen

    Hey, you, too. Good conversation.
    (FWIW, I find Jimmie Johnson, rings and all, to be distasteful – just as the Cowboys of the ’90s were hugely distasteful. It’s silly, I know, but when we win, I want it to be the right way.)

  • WFNY_DP

    6 days, 21 hours: “Lose for the draft pick.”
    3 hours during Sunday afternoon: “Just win baby.”

  • WFNY_DP

    Well, and it’s not just the first round players. It’s every subsequent round. Those spots have a cascading effect further down the draft. Moving up three spots isn’t just the availability of three extra players to choose from at the top: it’s essentially 21 extra players to choose from if you’re picking in all rounds of a seven-round draft. That can make a difference.

  • maxfnmloans

    I read Oedipus, and I am fully convinced the more you try to create your destiny the more likely you are to get bit in the rear at the end of the day. Give it 100% and let the chips fall where they may. Do your due diligence, pick the right players and don’t worry about it. Yeah sure, easier said than done, and really that’s the issue. Drafting 5th or 15th doesn’t seem to matter to a number of teams, and hopefully we can become one of those teams some day.

    Losses don’t stay with me too long. The wins generally go even more quickly, if only because they have been so few and far between. I’m sure if they were to ever string 5 or 6 of them together, the wave of euphoira would be too much to bear, but I am willing to take that risk

  • Jaker

    Just beat the Jets and Steelers. That would make my three wishes for the team from the beginning of the year come true.

    To recap, they were…
    1) Split with each division rivalry(because 4-2 would be impossible)
    2) Beat the Jets because I have too many Jet fan friends
    3) Improve from 4-12/5-11. Even going 6-10 would be a welcomed sign.

    If we want a Franchise QB bad enough, we can go get him from wherever we are drafting because we have the ammunition to move up in the draft.

  • Steve

    I no longer care about the “smarter-than-the-room” vibe. I’ve felt it from most FOs, and not just in Cleveland. I think its a necessary trait to run a team. If you didn’t think you were smarter than the guys you were picking against, what are you doing in this field?

  • Ezzie Goldish

    Interesting stat to me is 1st half vs. 2nd half. Browns in the first half are historically incredible. 2nd half? Average.

    What’s especially odd about that is the league averages usually get better in the second half, but the Browns go the other way. Clearly other teams adjust at halftime to the Browns’ D each week.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2013_opp_splits.htm

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/splits.htm

  • Vindictive_Pat

    Yeah, I actually didn’t mean for “smarter-than-the-room” to have a negative connotation, although I certainly could have worded it more appropriately. I actually agree that you want your front office to be extremely confident in their abilities. Coaches and players too. I meant it more from the position that I don’t think this front office will say, “I NEED TO TAKE MY QB AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE IN THE FIRST ROUND BECAUSE THAT’S THE ONLY PLACE TO FIND A FRANCHISE QB!” They believe they are smarter than the supposed consensus that McShay and Kiper will have everyone at home agreeing with. If they see better franchise potential in taking, say, Logan Thomas in the 3rd round (and as a Virginia Tech fan, I pray that they don’t), then they’re going to do that. Right now, I have no problem trusting them because this group doesn’t really have history together to critique. For both Banner and Lombardi, I feel like there are huge asterisks at their previous stops regarding who was actually making the final call on player acquisition decisions. So I’m willing to wait and see what they do and let my optimism run wild.

  • ohio state buckeyes fan

    I find it ludicrous to assume the Browns would play to lose to earn first pick in the draft. Frankly the way they have been playing all year the Browns losing the remainder of the games this season is a foregone conclusion. Not because they are losing for position in the draft but simply because they are a pretty bad team. Besides we really don’t want the first choice in the draft – wasting a ton of money on some prima donna that comes with more hype than ability seem our forte so lets settle further back in the draft and get value for money invested.