Cavaliers reach the quarter season mark with more questions than answers
December 10, 2013NFL News: Browns sign Edwin Baker from Texans practice squad (video)
December 10, 2013One of the most interesting aspects of the 2013 Cleveland Browns is that despite the losses on the field, I’m still very satisfied with the organizational structure that’s been built in Berea. The organizational structure they’ve put in place is by far the most comprehensive of any I can remember since 1999, and that starts at the top with CEO Joe Banner. I’ve said on a number of occasions that Joe Banner is likely the most qualified executive to ever be hired in Berea. After polling fans last week, it seems that my fellow fans are of the same opinion. Joe Banner had 47% of fans above the “No opinion” line and 84% were at least neutral or better overall. That really says a lot about the belief in an executive who has given Browns fans some very good sound bites and an on-field product with only four wins so far. And despite my continued criticisms of the won-loss record, I voted “Like him” at this point as well.
Despite the current optimism, the challenges awaiting Joe Banner this off-season are numerous. There are plenty of draft picks, including Indianapolis’ first rounder, that need to be chosen. Many fans will have a watchful eye on how the Browns handle their own free agents, namely T.J. Ward and Alex Mack. It’s very difficult to say just how good Mack and Ward are compared to what they’ll garner in their next contract, but it’s also very difficult to envision improving the Browns year-over-year while also allowing those two positions to become holes that need filling.
There are decisions to make with regard to the Browns’ more high-priced players. The Browns will likely think about Ahtyba Rubin for one because they could save $6.8 million by cutting him loose. If they keep him, his cap number will be a hefty $8.175 million. I’m a Rubin fan and there’s no reason to think Joe Banner and his staff don’t like him too, but we also know these Browns are very conscious of value. With a young Phil Taylor, John Hughes, Â Ishmaa’ily Kitchen, and Billy Winn to go along with their hand-picked guy, Desmond Bryant, it remains to be seen if they’ll budget for Rubin’s large, inherited contract going forward.
D’Qwell Jackson is another guy I’ve been talking a lot about because next year is the first year where it starts to make financial sense to do something about his contract. This year, his cap number is $6.4 million, but if they cut him, they would have had “dead money” of $9.2 million. Next year is when the Browns could save money on his contract. D’Qwell’s contract calls for him to have a cap number of $8.1 million, but if they cut him, his “dead money” would be $4.2 million representing a cost savings of $3.9 million.
None of this is to say that D’Qwell Jackson or Ahtyba Rubin are bad players or unimportant as leaders. There’s just little doubt that Joe Banner’s keen sense of roster building based on value won’t have at least a strong opinion on the topic of these two high priced players’ continued employment.
And therein lies the rub. Joe Banner made a bold move when he traded Trent Richardson to the Indianapolis Colts and I don’t think even he could have planned for it to look any better than it does right now for the Browns. Similarly, after having Josh Gordon’s name bandied about league-wide in trade rumors, they kept the receiver and he started breaking records. Maybe they are that brilliant in the Browns’ front office starting with Joe Banner at the top, but I don’t think even he would tell you that keeping 100% success rate with regard to NFL personnel is realistic. Of course, if they keep their hit rate higher than their miss rate, they’ll be fine, but we’ve yet to see him really miss as the head of the Browns.
Also, while the opinion of Joe Banner is pretty positive right now, I do think the team really will have to start winning in order for him to keep the opinion polls running so high. We saw how quickly that same ship – the S.S. Holmgren – turned from talking about the old coach to cracks about umbrella drinks and Seattle radio appearances. It happens quickly. That’s why this off-season, like so many others, is such a potential minefield. The Browns have to ask some tough questions that might have equally tough answers. If it somehow results in the Browns trying to improve on the field while also creating new holes to be filled by free agents and rookies, it’s hard to imagine it going really well.
But so far, so good. Joe Banner continues to welcome accountability. He shows no signs of fear when it comes to making tough, bold decisions. As a result of his current hit rate, Browns fans are enjoying the honeymoon with Joe Banner. Despite the mounting losses, most fans seem to see good potential for a brighter future, or at least no cause for alarm. Now for the tough part though. Winning. That’s something that’s been pretty elusive in Cleveland and we’ve been around long enough to see what many thought was the light at the end of the tunnel become just another collection of torches that accompany pitchforks.
65 Comments
Joe Banner doesn’t know how lucky he is, to be following Holmgren.
On the flip side: Trent, Weeden, et al.
Not sure how the Rubin deal will work out, he could even be traded. Versatile DL have a premium. As for DQ, I think Banner should get him to stay while reducing his cap number to, say, the $6-7M range (think of the bonuses that won’t count against the cap!). I believe letting your defensive captain go just to save a few dollars would send a terrible message to the players.
Every Browns CEO-type could say that about the guys who came before them… people like John Collins and Carmen Policy didn’t exactly endear themselves to Cleveland fans.
I was looking at who’s under contract for next season (and the year after) yesterday, and it’s an interesting list. (Including that we may see the same three QBs next year…) One of the most interesting aspects is that some of these unheard of guys are signed for next year or even longer, which I thought was odd and surprising. Anybody know why guys like Poyer got multi-year signings? Or are those calculated gambles by this front office?
One of the best things about the Browns, especially on D, is that they have enough players there to draft people they think will fit their system later in the draft. They may draft D’Qwell’s replacement in the 4th round this year and have him learn for a year.
It’s also a testament that guys who were our studs a year ago are now questionable to be kept, and that guys who before were “great” are now “good, but maybe not good enough”.
The difference here is that Banner wasn’t brought in by Randy Lerner, but rather Jimmy Haslam. The top-down change is in full process now.
At least Banner feigns interest in the team, and doesn’t do all his interviews from Seattle.
At least ninety percent of the goodwill Banner & Co. are enjoying right now is from the Richardson trade. The front office deserves every bit of that praise, too, because it was one of the riskier moves in recent NFL history, given that they were cutting bait on a third overall pick less than 18 months after he was drafted. So take nothing away from Banner on that move.
Free agency was a relative success as well. They targeted the front seven and, lo and behold, the Browns have on of the best units in the NFL. It’s certainly the strength of the team. Yes, Kruger has underachieved but the team didn’t break the bank on his contract. And”Dez” Bryant has been outstanding.
That said, this front office, just like the ones that came before it, is going to be judged on its drafts. Given that the team more or less punted half their 2013 Draft, i’ll be generous and give them an “incomplete” in that regard. A lot of it, of course, comes down to Mingo. So far, he’s been a lighter, albeit more athletic version of Kamerion Wimbley. He had some huge success early until opposing O-linemen watched tape and took away his primary pass rushing moves. Hopefully, an offseason of adjustments (said adjustments coming almonst entirely from the weightroom, if we’re lucky) will make this pick pay off. McFadden? Probably not the week to ask, given the terrible PI call in New England but i’m more concerned with how long it took this guy to get on the field (and that he couldn’t beat out Chris Owens (!) when the latter was healthy. We’ll see how Slaughter looks one year removed from the Achilles injury. And finally, kudos on Armonty Bryant. If you’re going to overlook character in favor of pure talent, the 7th round is the time to do it, and it paid off here.
“There’s just little doubt that Joe Banner’s keen sense of roster building based on value won’t have at least a strong opinion on the topic of these two high priced players’ continued employment.”
This is a confusing sentence. Are you saying that as high cap number guys that they will simply be evaluated? Or are you saying that you think Banner will be inclined to cut them (or trade them) simply because of their dead money/cap savings/cap hit ratio?
“but we’ve yet to see him really miss as the head of the Browns.”
Craig, have you seen the QB situation these days? I’m going to have to say that Banner and the FO as a whole have missed on their plan for the QB this year. Hoyer and Campbell have been revelations, but leaving the roster in such a state that Brandon Weeden has started since both played and may need to start again is inexcusable and a clear MISS in my opinion.
I think Hoyer and even Campbell play into any goodwill the FO gets currently.
FO brought in Hoyer and Campbell though. Manuel and Geno Smith haven’t exactly lit the world on fire from the draft. So, what QB solution was there for the taking? Maybe they could have pursued Alex Smith, but not idea if he would have chose us over KC and he’s not a long-term solution.
Interesting question, how do they handle Gordon in the off season? I wouldn’t be surprised to see him hold out for a new contract, what with him being the #1 receiving wide out so far, ahead of even Calvin Johnson despite missing 2 games.
Agreed that most rookies haven’t been as good as billed originally and that Hoyer and Campbell helped a ton.
I would have liked to see them make a move for a FA (preferably young, possible someone undrafted from last year) to add to the practice squad as soon as they realized Weeden was worthless.
I merely think leaving the QB position in a place where Weeden has played and may play again since they’ve realized he can’t play is worthless; those could be snaps given to a QB off the street (think Tanney) to see if he’s worth keeping. I think everyone in the FO knows they’re not keeping Weeden next year, why not see what else is out there?
The Tanney/Hanie moves are the type I’m talking about, but I would have liked to see them made about 4-6 weeks ago.
They didn’t pick Weeden, and it would appear the two guys they brought in for just-in-case have been pretty good. All we could have gotten in last year’s draft is another regrettable QB pick.
There’s no one worth keeping. The Browns have both Hoyer and Campbell under contract next year. They’ll add another QB in the draft. There are your 3 QBs for next season.
Unless, of course, you’re saying bring back Hoyer, Campbell, and Hanie? (or whatever street FA would be “worth keeping”)
Not to mention some things they got heavily criticized about before and during the season have been flipped into feel-good stories. People were screaming about their inaction on the TE position, about how awful Buster Skrine and Tashaun Gipson would be, about how they need to get rid of Josh Gordon, etc.
I’m saying that I have no idea if what the Browns will do, but I think they’re obvious choices to get a full on cost / benefit analysis that could see them being asked to renegotiate or be cut.
Wow. Hadn’t thought about that. Can’t imagine Banner bending though.
I apologize if I’m being dense, is the obviousness just salary based?
Guys, rookies can’t renegotiate their deals until after 3 seasons.
was it:
* failing to land chip kelly or
* bypassing the rams trade (ej manuel + kiko alonso) in favor of mingo or
* bidding against ourselves for expensive average OLB paul kruger or
* expending another large contract on a position already filled by rubin/taylor/hughes or
* hoarding cap space while letting mack/ward become UFAs or
* misquoted successories murals and orange office chair purchases
that have given you this sanguine feeling craig?
all we know for sure about this ‘new organizational structure’ is that they’ve been more successful extorting money for scoreboards and more focused on implementation of seal brown pants than they have in producing winning football.
we’re sitting on a shurmur-esque four wins. a needlessly punted season.
i hope the browns do well also. but the free pass extended to banner by browns fans and media and blogs is simply mind-blowing.
I think I’ve raised the flag for accountability as well. At the end of the day, I’m still positive on this group. I’ve certainly laid out plenty of times why I’m not happy about this season, but it doesn’t mean they haven’t done good things too.
Didn’t Antonio Gates hold out after his second year? Did they get that into the latest CBA to change it? I honestly don’t know for sure.
I’m still very uneasy about OG, ILB, and, yes, S (Gipson is okay, but I don’t think starting quality still…and who exactly is behind him?)
definitely pleasantly surprised by backup QBs, CBs, Richardson trade, Cameron.
we all expected the DL to be very good and deep, which they have been.
I think we expected more out of the OLBs, but they haven’t been bad (just not a true strength we expected).
It’s in the new CBA. Drafted rookies can’t renegotiate until after their 3rd season. Undrafted rookies can’t renegotiate until after their 2nd season.
ok, I agree. when Hoyer went down they should have signed another QB. but, when you are talking about signing a QB4 for your team (or even a QB3), then I think that should be a lower on the overall list of grievances.
yes, it was a mistake in my book, but they have made bigger ones than that one and Weeden’s tunnel vision may have unleashed Gordon’s true potential on the NFL.
Good stuff. Gates was undrafted, so that makes sense.
as much as I liked Manuel, he sure hasn’t been doing himself any favors lately. he isn’t using his mobility anymore and his accuracy has fallen off a cliff. i’m not giving up on him, but he’s going through an adjustment period (and, it’s this adjustment that will show him to be a good QB long-term or a wasted pick).
failing to land Chip isn’t necessarily on them. it felt like he was just using us as leverage for the Eagles job, then used Oregon when we got up and walked away.
we overpaid for Kruger, yes. i’m not upset with the Bryant sign though (pending his heart condition)
you know I agree on the cap-space (OG, ILB, S could have all been addressed last offseason)
every FO does the PR stunts with fluffy stuff, so not going to worry about that part.
Salary, age, numbers of alternatives and ultimately value. If you want to build the best, most efficient team you can, you don’t want to waste lots of money on players that aren’t worth it. The Browns already have a ton of dead money with Trent Richardson’s trade and Banner hasn’t shown a particular nostalgia for older players like D’Qwell Jackson in the past. Also, Rubin’s a good player, but he’s surrounded by cheap alternatives with Hughes, Kitchen, Winn, and even Taylor who is on his rookie deal as players in the front to go along with their hand-picked guy Bryant.
I obviously don’t know all the Browns’ roster priorities this off-season, but if they have to cut fat one place to beef up another, or if they want to give themselves flexibility to front-load either Mack or Ward’s new deals, the first places I would look are DQ and Rubin’s contracts as opportunities to cut.
1. manuel/alonzo not the point. use ogletree/warford if you like. the point is that there were holes to fill. mingo didn’t fill one.
2. for a savvy veteran like banner to fly out publicly with his owner to sleep on the doorstep of his primary signing target only to be played by a college coach is soft no? regardless, i’ve heard that banner’s personality was a factor in kelly passing.
3. not overpaid; bid against self. again, banner is supposed to be so savvy.. but the record indicates different.
4. but not every FO commands such media presence for the announcement of a new cafeteria. i’m more off-put by the breathless coverage of berea improvement than banner’s berea improvements themselves.
sure some good things have occurred. but the failures to plug holes last off-season leaves us with last year’s hole plus holes a FS and C now. and that’s one demoralized locker room right now.. didn’t have to be.
one week its “joe banners legendary arrogance” running the browns the next hes extremely qualified.
The looming potential suspension gives Banner some decent leverage. It’s probably the only way that scenario can be spun positively.
I know it’s complex, but accountability for something with both short and long-term results is naturally going to be that way.
1.) you go best player availible in your mind top 10 no matter what. if it fills a need great if not your still getting a potential superstar.
2.) unless your were in the negotiations with kelly you have no idea why the campaign for him failed. youve “heard” it was banner but theres no proof. weve also herd the browns turned him down.
3.) Paul Kruger is not overpaid or anything this season hes making $700,000 this season hardly breaking the bank for his small sack total.
4.) with a constant loser like the browns who have had zero upgrades to anything the team uses since 1999 when al lerner owned the team billion dollar upgrades get reported. theres hardly “breath-less coverage of it”
theres absolutley no reason to think ward and mack cant be resigned so to assume those are holes is abit ridiculous they have a long time to do it. and to use a phrase u did ive heard that the locker room is very upbeat despite the season right now.
I can see this both ways, and you guys have already unpacked it pretty well. I think Banner and Co. deserve credit for the “revelation” that has been Hoyer and Campbell; but I also agree that they should have done something, anything, when it became clear after Hoyer’s injury that Weeden can’t “play QB.”
So you don’t like the arrogance in his short-term moves, yet you like him enough to believe those short-term moves will help long-term?
I don’t mind arrogance in upper management, as long as that arrogance is backed by results. It seems you (as am I) are hopeful in the results.
Yes. The arrogance is much easier to take when it happens during the off-season and is part of getting ready for a season. When it feels like they’re arrogantly not working to maximize the season we’re in while we’re involved in it, that’s significantly harder to take.
i wouldnt mention it if i didnt trust where i heard it.
w.r.t. mack: he’s a cal grad raised in the bay area. the niners’ center is 35. so there actually are good reasons to think he won’t re-sign.
theres 3 teams in cal though….
the 9ers arnt gonna wanna dish out the contract he wants. theres absolutley nothing to indicate he wont resign
theres 3 teams in cal though….
the 9ers arnt gonna wanna dish out the contract he wants. theres absolutley nothing to indicate he wont resign
i know you’ve kinda gone there, the accountability questioning of mine is broader. e.g., “q: joe how come you’ve got $25M+ of cap space? a: because there wasn’t anyone i wanted to sign for the money.” and then the reporters sit like mikey on santa lap “how about a nice.. football!” i havent heard him justify the 12M+ in cap that won’t rollover nor do we have any reason to think he’ll use the rollover from this year in next year’s market. just because banner was presented as a cap guru doesnt mean he shouldnt explain how letting $12M+ of cap evaporate helps the team (in either long or short term ways).
one area were you do seem in their thrall is analytics jive. the whole alec-scheiner-spoke-at-the-sloan-conf thing. why should we care? we have no idea how it is used. i didnt even need my PFF subscription to tell you that lauvao+[injured]pinkston+ryanmiller was going to be a problem at guard. i mean here’s some analytics: 0% of draft picks not used have an impact on their team that year.
i suppose, mainly, i’m tired of being deferential simply because we don’t have a choice.
SF has shown they are willing to pay out for FAs though. Not sure if they can get there with their other needs and cap situation (I’ll go through it once the offseason hits).
I think Kanick brings up a fair point though that there is likely a price-point that Banner will not go over to sign Mack and we may move on this offseason if he thinks there is another team who will. I think we can be fine even if that happens (if we sign a very good OG that we should have last offseason). But, it’s another potential question mark spot.
also, Center has proven to be a pretty fungible position in the NFL and they are one of the few positions to have a decent amount of movement. so, if Banner/Scheiner/Lombardi believe that, then it also raises the possibility. Hard to know until it happens of course.
(1) I would say that we have a need for a speed rusher. Mingo has shown potential there this season, but sure isn’t the impact guy we were hoping he’d be either. If he develops into our speed-rush guy, then it’s still a good pick. Getting to the QB is only behind having the QB in priority.
(2) no, not soft. gullible if they initially believed he was interested when he was playing them, but not soft. if it was Banner’s personality and Banner is the head, then it’s good we got that cleared up, right? we want FO/coaches working together. I don’t know if Banner is the best guy for the job, but he’s the guy who Haslam hired, so he better find people who can work with him.
(3) we paid too much. let’s agree here, okay 🙂
(4) I just don’t care either way on the fluffy stuff.
Also, I’m not giving up on re-signing Ward. I think he gets the franchise tag as he’s only 26yo right now and safety is one of the most difficult positions to find in the NFL right now.
I think Mack is less likely because I don’t think the value/$ is there as much for center. I don’t like it because I want to keep Mack, but I see them moving on from him easier (and he’s 2 years older as well).
Gates was UNDRAFTED. He’s a freaking hall of famer. Wow.
This FO has a lot to do to convince me they are capable of evaluating and selecting talent effectively enough to turn this franchise into a winner. Bottom line for me is they repeatedly stated they liked this team and we sit at 4-9, so far. In their evaluation, they said “we are ready compete”. We can talk about various area’s of improvement all we want, but the fact remains, we are 4-9! Hopefully after their year-long vacation from team improvement, we will begin seeing some signs of movement in the right direction.
I just realized next year is the 5th year of Mike Holmgren’s 5-year plan. I can’t wait to send him the bill of my playoff tickets
And the Browns let a “local” product go all the way to the beach… another failure of the Randy Lerner era
He’ll just put it on his Brows Express card.
So, either way, his next rack of ribs and pitcher of Mai Tais is still on us.
Wasn’t it Pete Rose who said something like “it’s not arrogant if you can back it up”. Let’s see if he can back it up-I actually feel like he will which is not how I felt about Mr. Holmgren.