On defensive analytics and the Cavs’ recent issues
February 9, 2014Josh Gordon’s impending back tattoo is impressive, huge
February 10, 2014
Cleveland sports fans are waiting. Thus, while we’re all waiting, the WFNY editors thought you might enjoy reading. Because you never know how long we might be waiting. So here are assorted reading goodies for you to enjoy. Send more good links for tomorrow’s edition to tips@waitingfornextyear.com.
“The Browns invested $38.85 million on offensive players, which was the 29th highest figure in the NFL. The investments, in order from highest to lowest by position, were as follows: OT ($13.35 million), WR ($5.67 million), OG ($5.41 million), C ($5.03 million), QB ($4.17 million), TE ($3.03 million), and RB ($2.20 million). The investment at running back plummeted after the purge at the position (Trent Richardson, Montario Hardesty, Brandon Jackson).” [Pokorny/Dawgs By Nature]
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“From Pestano’s standpoint, I can see why he wanted to maximize his income, even at the risk of getting less than the “compromise offer” that undoubtedly was made after figures were exchanged. To this point in his career Pestano has about $1.4M in major-league salaries, and after an injury-plagued season, perhaps in his mind this was his last best chance to make serious money playing baseball, and that $475,000 gap could make a big difference later in his life. The career of a reliever can be rather ephemeral, going from utter dominance to back in the minors to completely out of baseball in the span of months.” [Ryan/Let’s Go Tribe]
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“So far, the flips Meyer and his staff created have not generated a lot of positive play on the field for Ohio State, aside from Decker and Wilson (and Schutt, if we’re being generous). None of the others have yet been a factor in winning football games. Two aren’t even around anymore.
Of the seven flippers in the 2012 and 2013 classes — those who have had a chance to earn playing time for the Buckeyes — only three have seized it. Two have transferred and two are still waiting to leave their mark on the tapestry of Ohio State football. The two 2014 flips are still waiting in the wings.
So Meyer’s flipping prowess hasn’t reaped the full and expected benefits, but there is still plenty of time for the talented Conley and Dodson to make good — and, of course, Slade and Taylor haven’t even gotten here yet.” [Citro/Eleven Warriors]
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“But mistakes are one thing. A team that doesn’t hear its coach is quite a larger matter. This isn’t meant to say Brown and a roster featuring Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson and Luol Deng has no hope. Nor is it intended to demand everything be gutted.
Basically, the Cavs immediately went from going through the motions to going on a 33-game audition after Grant was let go. That audition includes Brown, acting GM David Griffin, and all those pieces Grant accumulated.
So Brown must figure out how the Cavs can win without being a great defensive team, how they can give maximum effort on a regular basis, how Irving, Waiters, Deng and the others can feed off one another.” [Amico/FSO]
36 Comments
Bad analogy by Amico, claiming Phil Jackson had to motivate Dennis Rodman to go hard. Sam, are you old enough to have watched Rodman play? He was over-motivated if anything. What coaches had to do, starting with Chuck Daley, was help him reign it in, keep him from getting tossed in player altercations. His narrow but extreme basketball skillset – getting every rebound and loose ball – was almost exclusively energy and motivation, and justifiably put him in the Hall of Fame. Maybe Jackson nicely dealt with his off-court crap and helped him show up, reasonably on time and reasonably sober. But when the whistle blew I never saw Rodman go less than 100%, even in meaningless games. Like Bill Russell, he didn’t seem capable of that.
I got into it this weekend with a friend of mine who’s a Pistons fan (lol?) and he swears that Gilbert is the team’s problem.
I’m curious to see if others agree. Besides hiring Grant and Brown, and writing an ill-advised open letter 5 years ago, what has Gilbert done wrong exactly? Pistons-friend couldn’t give me any real answers, just buzz words like “culture” and “at the top.”
I think people still hold a grudge because they didn’t like the Comic Sans letter.
I think he probably shouldn’t have made his “we’re not going to be back in the lottery” statement. Other than that I really think he’s done everything you could hope a small market team owner would do. He spends money and seems to out of the way enough to let the GM operate (I’m speculating) but he is also not invisible.
I don’t buy the culture of an organization starts at the top argument personally. Donald Sterling is the same slimey, bag o crap he’s always been. Biggest difference in that organization is that Elgin Baylor isn’t drafting Michael Olowakandi’s anymore. Their GM Gary Sacks has made some really strong moves, he and Doc Rivers are far more responsible for changing the “culture” of the Clippers (see; taking down the Laker banners during Clipper games). Gilbert needs to find the right guy and stand aside, but I certainly don’t think he’s the problem.
People outside Cleveland make assumptions about Gilbert (although it seems odd in this case since he’s from Detroit and has been one of very few businessmen to remain committed to helping the situation there) based on the few times he’s gotten press and been made to look silly. The open letter to Lebron was a soothing balm to Cavs fans but looked dumb to everybody else. The email to Stern about the Chris Paul trade made him look like a whiner, but he raised legitimate concerns and it was supposed to be private communication. The reality is that Gilbert is committed to winning, willing to spend any amount of money it takes, and is willing to take the advice of basketball people on how to do it. I’m not sure how much more you can ask for. (and I know you can say “hiring better FO people” but Chris Grant was a highly thought-of guy around the league when he succeeded Ferry)
Firing Brown in sole hopes of retaining Lebron, begging for Izzo, hiring Scott, we’ll see what the plan is after firing Grant, but it looks like “hope and pray” at the moment, seemingly spending a lot more energy on the grand proclamations than finding actual results, the spending actually hasn’t really been there now that season ticket sales have dried up post-Lebron, and generally seeming scummier as more comes out about him.
I think it’s important to ask what has he done right exactly? He doesn’t seem to have the ability to organize a high level NBA front office, which should be his only task. His primary accomplishment is his ability to work the fans up in a tizzy. Maybe he can be the mascot.
I’m just not a big fan of his the letter debacle was just stupid on his part. It shows how passion can sometimes cloud ones judgment. I have a bigger problem with what you talk about in his hirings. He basically tried to copy San Antonio’s process and it’s failed not once but possibly twice. Perhaps if anything Gilbert has been to loyal to the people he’s hired I don’t know.
The Browns have $$$$ to use to make this team better I’m waiting to see what they do the second time around. Last year didn’t exactly blow me away I felt they overpaid for Kruger and while I liked the signing of Bryant who knows if his health will be a long term issue. The draft was a complete joke but that’s another subject.
Well, so far as “what has he done right,” the Cavs were NBA Championship contenders for a number of years.
If you are going to give him the blame for some of these things, you also have to give him the props on the good ones.
RE: Firing a coach to keep a superstar happy.
It happens on every team in the league lucky enough to have a superstar (See Lakers, Clippers, Magic, et al.).
I don’t know if I would go as far as championship contenders I mean they only made the finals once (believe me I am not discounting that the slightest after the last 3 years) and were swept.
And I don’t believe LeBron ever told Gilbert to fire Brown I think Gilbert assumed firing Brown would help keep LeBron. Maybe this is why Gilbert made the mistake of publicly admitting firing Brown was a mistake. If anything he fired Brown a year or two late if you ask me which was a mistake.
I would argue the firing of Brown was not on Gilbert the rehiring def should be a black mark on his resume. I’m not sure how trying to court one of the 2/3 most successful active college coaches would be a negative, maybe you could enlighten me? I think calling it “begging” is simply pushing your own agenda onto the existing facts. Yes they went after him hard, he has a great job and legacy, you aren’t going to woo him playing hard to get. I doubt you have any evidence that there was actual begging involved.
I totally agree that his “grand proclomations” are a problem, he’d be much better off staying silent, but I don’t think they are significant enough to classify him as a bad owner. The spending has happened, or were you away on sabbatical last year when the Cavs took on Speights, and Ellington’s contracts? No they didn’t do that this year (still might at the deadline) but that is more due to the fact that they want cap space for this summer’s free agency market, as opposed to the “drying of season ticket money”.
Considering his major revenue flows from predatory home loans and a casino, he should be some cross between Don Sterling and the Maloofs. If you follow basketball there is no way you can put him in either of their categories – as terrible owners, or miserable low life human beings.
Well, regardless of how you want to define contender, they were among the top 5 best teams in the NBA for a period of years. And that has to be considered a success.
But yeh – the whole Brown thing has been a debacle on both the firing and re-hiring (what?lol?) side.
The Cavs were contenders because they had Lebron, not because of anything Gilbert did. Replacement-level owners would have achieved just as much.
And as shammy points out, Gilbert seemed to make to just assume that firing Brown would keep Lebron. Gilbert even admitted that he hadn’t been in contact with Lebron for a while by the time he became a free agent. It was just another “on a whim and a prayer” approach that Gilbert seems to be growing fond of.
Izzo’s act isn’t going to cut it in the NBA, and everyone, especially Izzo, knows it. Except Casino Dan, I guess.
He took on about $3M prorated in contracts after beginning the season below the salary cap floor? How impressive of him.
Yeah he’s no Sterling/Maloofs. At least he’s got that going for him.
you say he was below the floor, but you must also note that number did not include Baron’s amnesty money.
Amnesty money still counts against payroll minimum? Those owners did a damn good job in the CBA.
Ok, so he spent $3M that he didn’t have to. Props to Casino Dan for his lavish generousity to the fans.
Had he taken on massive contracts youd be here killing him for not having cap space for thus summer. Flexibility is abigger reason for not spending. Also you tried changing the Izzo argument. We werent discussing if would be successful or not. I pointed out that if you wanted him you had to go hard after him. You skipped past that part.
I know full well he is far from perfect but your entire argument was based on revisionist history (Gilbert gets all the blame for hiring Scott?? Didnt he have GM?) and attaching your personal opinion to acts and pretending that it is fact. I think I could make a case for about 15-20 owners that you would hate having more.
again. cap flexibility. you cant spend crazy and maintain it. See Dolan, James for reference.
You also are also choosing to forget the period when Lebron was here and we were a tax payer. Yes there was additional revenue from the playoffs, but salary was at or above the cap level for the last 3/4 years of the Lebron era. If you want to know what a cheap owner looks like, see Bennett, Clay. Sell out crowds, deep playoff runs, and he ditches the best 3rd scoring option in the league a full year early just to avoid any tax.
I get that Gilbert gets more praise then he should, but you are going way too far against him. He spent when we were a contender and we have kept flexibility when we are not (and he didn’t mind eating Baron’s contract to give us a lottery pick, which luckily ended with Kyrie).
There are things to kill Gilbert on, but spending money isn’t one of them.
you are largely correct here. Gilbert was willing to spend, which certainly helped (though sadly, never getting the 2nd star we desperately needed), but LeBron was the bigger reason for our success than the $$$.
We could spend money when Lebron was raking it in? And when we didn’t have money, we didn’t spend any? Sounds exactly like someone who should not get any credit for their spending habits. I’m not saying he’s cheap, I’m saying there’s nothing to suggest he’ll actually go spend on the team unless he’s already raking it in from the team.
Bennett is a bit different, the new CBA really hurts small market teams trying to keep multiple max, or near max players. He’s also operating in a smaller arena, that only gets his team to the middle of pack in total attendance even when the sell out, and their tv contract was based on the days before they were a thrill to watch. Put it all together and he’s not generating revenue like the normal 60 win team does, you’ll notice the most recent Business of Basketball puts them 13th in revenue, pretty much equal with the Cavaliers. Yeah, he’s cheap for being so strict in avoiding the luxury tax, but he’s not making as much as you suggest.
You said, in pretty much the same breath that he wasn’t “begging” for Izzo (fine, use whichever term you like) but that you’d have to go hard to get him (which Gilbert almost did). You seem to want it both ways. I can’t really respond until you make up your mind.
I’m not giving him all the blame for Scott, but he’s the one constant in consistently bad decision making about who to add to the front office, which as I’ve stated, should be far and away, his primary goal.
I don’t think I’m killing him on spending. I’m just pointing out that payroll has moved almost in line with revenue. I don’t think it’s anywhere near the plus people want to portray it as. He’s not cheap, but he’s nowhere near the spendthrift he gets credit for.
I will kill him on his ability to add talent to the FO, and his inability to penchant for talking a lot bigger game than he can produce, fully admitting the latter is much more of a personally annoyance than anything to do with his managerial record without Lebron.
yes, I agree with you though the Baron move is the one that I feel Gilbert must get some credit for allowing (he took on that contract despite knowing it was likely for only a marginal gain. it ended up being a big gain, but that was unlikely).
the other items are perfectly fair to kill Gilbert on.
fun thought:
how different would the NBA be today if the Thunder amnestied Perkins, went 1 more year with Harden, and then chose Harden over Westbrook?
I admit to having been a huge fan of Westbrook’s game and would have said it was an easy decision to pick him over Harden, but post playoff injury, he wasn’t the same, and who knows now. Would be very interested to see this year’s Durant with a guy like Harden next to him.
But we had that cash to buy Davis with because he forced season ticket holders to decide to re-up well before Lebron’s decision. Good business by him, but has a skeevy feel, and of course, that still qualifies as spending cash Lebron brought in.
yes, exactly. delaying the decision would have given them more information about both players health, continued development, etc. just one of those data points that shows why you try to hold off making a decision like that as long as possible.
it’s a fair point. but, the counter is that it was also money that he could have put directly back into his pocket. not doing so, sadly, puts him in the top half of owners in terms of how they utilize their finances.
What should he be spending money on? Would you be happy if he had outbid Detroit for Josh Smith? Seriously, give an example of what they should have used cap space on that wouldnt restrict them this offseason.
Bennetts situation is no different than the Cavs when Lebron was here. Yes the second year tax is more prohibitive, but Clay didnt even get to the first year. He could have taken 2 real shots at a ring with the Harden core intact. He could have amnestied Perk and not had to trade Harden at all. If they dont win a title his cheap ess is huge reason why. Again you selectively chose one narrtive for Gilbert and another for a similar guy. You dont have to like Gilbert but just say it dont manufacture. Reason.
So anytime anyone goes hard after someone they are begging? If the Cavs begged Izzo, the Lakers begged Dwight, Pat Riley begged Lebron. I dont care what you call it but be consistent. Either its all begging or its simply teams targeting personel and trying hard to get them
I’m just not that sure about the “top half” comment. That year we were near the very bottom of the league in payroll, with a Lebron-year revenue still coming in.
Like I’ve said many times now, I’m not saying he should have spent wildly. I’m saying spending only matches revenues. That deserves no credit, either way, in my book.
It is a different narrative. The Cavs final year of Lebron saw them 5th in the league in revenue, not 13th. OKC isn’t sporting the same kind of cash that the Cavs were.
And yeah, I’d say, figuratively, that the Lakers begged Dwight, and Riley begged Lebron. I’ll let you judge how much that says that those franchises begged for the absolute elite players at the time, while ours was begging for a guy who has never been a part of a single NBA game.
Sure, holding on can give you more info, but then you’re trading Harden to a team who is giving him just the new contract and nothing before that. You’d hope that adding Harden at just $5.8M for a year should be worth a lot. Unfortunately for them it didn’t work out. It’s a big crapshoot, and they missed their point on that one.
“I’m saying spending only matches revenues. ”
In your original post you used this as a criticism of him. If he shouldn’t get credit for responsible spending he shouldn’t be criticized for it either. Again, it just seems you have an agenda against the guy and were looking for any avenue to let off steam. In some cases you were right, in this and several others you are flat out wrong.
I apparently don’t have access to the same internet as you, I don’t seem to see anything that lists the Cavs revenue from 4 years ago. Nonetheless I have no problem with it, if they had more money than so be it. However the Cavs were actual taxpayers then, OKC blew their team up 2 years prior to having to pay the tax, and refused to amnesty Perkins which is mind boggling from unless Bennett can’t stomach paying someone that much money to someone for not doing anything.
As for everything else, clearly you don’t like the guy, I get it, I’m not going to wear out the keyboard anymore trying to argue with you. I thought your characterizations were bending truth to your own fiction. I’m not going to convince you, so enjoy rooting for whatever other team you find more to your liking.
we were in the lower-middle. $51mil to start that season and then we traded for Baron. Bumped it up plus the additional years and money due Baron. Kings & Twolves were under $40mil that year.
that “Lebron year revenue” was ticket purchases only. no playoffs, no extra ad money, no big jersey/merchandise sales, alot of people not coming/spending in arena, etc. alot of monies we received were just not there anymore.
look, i get that you hate the perception of the Dolans, but they spend revenue and you defend them, but you blast Gilbert for the same. it’s not fair that the perception is so off between the two, but no reason to blast Gilbert either.
That $51M was third from the bottom, thats a generous “lower-middle”. And adding Davis $13M that year for Williams, $9.3M, and Moon, $3M, was a negligible bump for that one year. Nobody was under $40M, as the salary floor was $43.5M.
Revenues were still 4th in the NBA in 2010, and 12th in 2011. The Lebron effect was still a pretty big boost for the team.
Again, I don’t think I’m blasting Gilbert for his spending, I’m just pointing out that, as you so eloquently put, it’s not fair that the perception is so off between the two.
That $51M was third from the bottom, thats a generous “lower-middle”. And adding Davis $13M that year for Williams, $9.3M, and Moon, $3M, was a negligible bump for that one year. Nobody was under $40M, as the salary floor was $43.5M.
Revenues were still 4th in the NBA in 2010, and 12th in 2011. The Lebron effect was still a pretty big boost for the team.
Again, I don’t think I’m blasting Gilbert for his spending, I’m just pointing out that, as you so eloquently put, it’s not fair that the perception is so off between the two.
Since it needs to be made clear, no, I don’t think his spending is worth criticizing. It’s just wildly overstated.
Hey, with the benefit of hindsight, seeing Westbrook get hurt, Harden really turn it up, the return in the trade being poor, and Perkins bottom out, I absolutely agree that he should have done something completely different. I bet he would even say the same thing. Unfortunately for him, no one knew all of those things were going to happen.
Correct, I don’t like the guy, but I have no idea why that means I would root for another team. That comment just seems petty. It’s perfectly valid to criticize your own team and it’s owner and point out their significant flaws.