Captain America the Winter Soldier plus Chief Wahoo on opening day – WFNY Podcast – 2014-04-07
April 7, 2014Nate Burleson hopes to mentor Josh Gordon
April 8, 2014The dumbest press conference ever? – Have you ever seen a press conference where teammates had to stand before the media to tell everyone how good of friends they are? I certainly hadn’t….prior to yesterday:
How would Irving describe his relationship with Waiters?
“Honestly, off the court and on the court, we’re the best of friends,” he said. “So when we come on the court, we’re just going to play basketball like we’ve been doing the past few games and our focus is on winning right now.”
Added Waiters, “On behalf of [Irving], myself, I just think we’ve been in so much media this year, and it’s not fair to either of us.
“I just think, man, throughout this whole year with us two not liking each other, it’s total BS. We’ve been friends before we even made the NBA, before any of this. I just think y’all saying we don’t like playing with one another …
“Yeah, we still need to learn certain things. But I think at the end of the day, we’re genuinely friends. I love him as a friend, teammate, everything. I just want everybody to know that. I don’t hate this guy. I’m pretty sure he don’t hate me. I know he don’t hate me. I hope he don’t hate me. Rome wasn’t built in one day. We’re still young. We’re still planning to stay together. We’re still working. As long as we’ve got great communication down, it’s fine.”
I’ve been feeling a little disenchanted with sports lately. Well, not sports in general. Just Cleveland sports. I have thoroughly enjoyed the NCAA tournament. Last night’s Championship game was a lot of fun to watch. I have no problems with English Premier League soccer. I’m looking forward to the NBA and NHL playoffs. So I can’t say my issue is with sports in general. But I’m just getting tired of the Cleveland sports scene.
There’s no question this has been a trying Cavs season. It started with the early season disappointing losses. Then there was the whole Bynum fiasco. Oh, and Anthony Bennett looking like the worst #1 pickup in NBA history certainly hasn’t helped. And Luol Deng has been a pretty huge disappointment too. And remember the New York stories about how the Cavs locker room was in complete disarray? Pretty much everything about this season has been soul crushing.
But it was getting better. The team played great, well ok, not great, but really good basketball in February and March. Dion Waiters was making the leap. Kyrie Irving and Dion were set to have a chance to play in the backcourt together again and the team was making a charge. The players were laughing. They looked like basketball was fun again. Everything was clicking. And then Friday afternoon, the Brian Windhorst interview happened, and it just sucked the fun right back out. It was completely deflating. Then we had Josh Gordon going on TV to talk about what a mess the Kyrie and Dion relationship supposedly is. And to top it off, of course the Cavs went out and got destroyed by Atlanta in the biggest game of their season, followed by a loss to Charlotte to completely put a nail in the coffin. Just like that, the season was over, and so too was the fun.
Look, I don’t know what Kyrie’s future has in store for him. I hope he plays his whole career in Cleveland, but we all know the odds of that happening are slim. Who’s the last Cavalier to play his whole career for the team? Brad Daugherty? It just doesn’t happen. But either way, I understand Kyrie’s frustration with the circus and why he lashed out. And I guess I get why he and Dion felt like they needed to jointly speak to the media yesterday to profess their love for each other. But still, the whole thing just reeked of Cleveland insecurity. I swear, this is the only place where something like this could happen. It’s all just such a mess and I want it all to go away. Why can’t we all just realize exactly what Kyrie and Dion seem to have realized…that they are young, developing players who need each other on the court and need to time to continue to grow that on-court chemistry?
It’s not just the Cavs, either. Beyond Josh Gordon’s involvement, we have the whole Jimmy Haslam-FBI thing hanging over all our heads. Then there’s Alex Mack who is doing everything in his power to get the fans in Cleveland to turn against him. And how soon we forget the Browns just got done firing a coach after one season, letting the President and GM hire the new coach, and then firing that President and that GM.
It’s just not fun for me right now. I’m pretty tired of all of it. I love sports. The games themselves are as fun it gets. But there’s so much stupid drama that surrounds Cleveland sports and it’s quite literally driving me insane. Well, maybe not insane, but it’s driving me to a certain form of lethargy with respect to the teams I love. Can’t we just have some good teams to root for without all the silly stuff? Is that really too much to ask for?
Some words on my ever-evolving stance on Chief Wahoo – You know, it’s funny. I keep hearing people say they’re so sick of this topic. I can relate. I used to feel the same way. But the more I search Google and read about the oppression of American Indians and their struggles with their own identity and not being able to control the stereotypical view most Americans hold of them, the more I want to talk about Chief Wahoo. It just makes me want to help lend a voice in any small way that I can. It’s easy for most of us in our relatively comfortable existence to sit in judgment and get angry because someone wants us to change our sports logo. But the near-extermination of American Indians carried out by our government has left them as a people whose population was whittled down and fractured across the country. It left them without the ability to speak in a unified voice for a very long time. But the internet has changed all of that.
It’s so easy to learn about anything today. All the knowledge in the world is at our fingertips on our computers, our tablets, and our phones. We just have to be willing to take the time to read and learn. For over 30 years of my life I was pro-Wahoo. I was one of those scoffing at the idea that anyone could be offended by something as “harmless” as a mascot or logo. But then one day I decided to research the topic and read more about it. Not just Wahoo, but all sorts of Indian mascots, logos, names, traditions, and imagery across all sports. I read article after article with interview after interview with real American Indians who talked about how harmful these images are to them. And I realized that, without meaning to, we’ve been hurting actual people for a very long time.
Look, I don’t mean to be preachy. I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind. But I just hope people can realize this isn’t a made up issue. This isn’t about “white liberals”. I’m not a liberal and I am staunchly opposed to Wahoo. It’s not about political correctness or anything like that either. Not for me, anyway. For me it’s about all those interviews I read. It was about understanding, finally, that my idea of what American Indians were like isn’t based in reality at all. It’s based on fictionalized stereotypes. It’s rooted in a world where kids watch cartoons like this without even realizing what they’re watching:
I keep hearing people say that they want to see American Indians speaking out against Wahoo, with the implication being that it’s mostly White Male Americans who are making this an issue. Well, first of all, if you’re truly interested in hearing from American Indians, please search Google. It’s out there and you can find it and read about it if you really want to. And secondly, of course the voice is louder from White Male Americans. American Indians have been reduced to a tiny minority. As of 2012, only 1.2% of US population are American Indian. So how loud do you expect them to be? Their inability to be heard isn’t a function of them not caring. It’s a function of the reality of their existence.
At the end of the day, fighting for an image that offends people just isn’t that important to me. I root for the Cleveland baseball team. Not the name “Indians” or Chief Wahoo. I’ll root for these players no matter what they’re called. I have a suspicion that everyone else would, too.
Ok, time to end this on a lighter note – We’ve got yet another pretty darn good week of new music to enjoy. For you fans of 80s hardcore punk, Keith Morris’s retro-punk band Off! has a new album out titled “Wasted Years”. Former Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante has a new solo album, “Enclosure”. Detroit rockers Protomartyr released their stellar “Under Color of Official Right”. Pop punk fans might enjoy the self-titled debut album from Pup.
But for me, my favorite album coming out today is EMA – “The Future’s Void”. Call it what you will….rock, pop, whatever….to me it’s just pure enjoyment. Erika M Anderson, or EMA, made some pretty huge waves in the indie world a couple years ago with “Past Life Martyred Saints”. It was an album that I didn’t love. But almost everyone whose opinion I respect seemed to really love it. This time around, the songs have a more straight forward purpose that works for me. These are just really good songs. And this album has what is easily one of my favorite songs of 2014 so far:
64 Comments
Could we figure out a way to change the symbol (with input from indians) to honor them and keep them a part of our baseball team? The answer is probably not, but mgbode, gary owen and I were talking previously about making updates to the stadium and around the stadium to include history about the various tribes in the area. I would rather see them do this than just change the logo to a C, but maybe easier said than done.
Potentially…Maybe? I’m not sure exactly how that would work. I think the heart of the issue is using a race of people as a team name and mascot. That’s always going to be a huge hurdle to overcome.
Must . . . resist . . . urge . . . to list all the other logos, trademarks, icons, caricatures, etc. that must also be eliminated as undesirable.
Could it be the “Tribe” and the logo simply be a feather? Perhaps that still invokes negative connotations about a race of people? Maybe it’s a stupid name anyway? I dunno, I’m spitballing and I’ve only had one coffee.
I know everyone hates spiders, but I think it’s kinda cool
You can mention Fighting Irish every time, it doesn’t make it a solid argument. It will still be false equivalency.
Mythical creature + named by Irish American university students + no one actually offended by it =/= caricature of a race of people.
For a long time, I didn’t get what all the fuss was. Now I am at the point where if it hurts people, then it should be changed. I also think that whenever I see people painted in redface on national TV, all I can think about is how embarrassing that is to me as a Clevelander (which, in the scheme of things, is about the 10,001st reason why things should change). I just think that at this point in time, it makes us look foolish, and since everyone is so happy to pile on poor, sad Cleveland whenever they get a chance, we should control the narrative for once.
I know, it’s tradition, and there’s history etc, but, when the Browns left, we got to keep the history and the tradition. They were a completely new franchise, with no real ties to the Browns, except for the history books, and we didn’t have a hard time accepting that…so, if the team is the same, the people is the same, the history still belongs to us, and the only thing that changes is laundry, so what?
And am I really the only one who likes the Spiders idea? We’d be the only Spiders (in the big sports). Bonus points for being unique, in my mind.
No no no, there are many many more insensitive stereotypes out there than just Notre Dame’s. If we’re going to ban one, we gotta ban ’em all. Otherwise, we’re being hypocritical.
And this is absolutely the last thing I’m going to say about it.
I really like the Spiders. I like the idea of going with one of the old team names in general (like Naps), or naming the team after Bob Feller.
I also strongly agree with your point about why were are embracing fodder for making Cleveland look bad. I’ve lived on the East Coast half my life now, and people out here love to take cheap shots at Cleveland.
[unrelated]
REMOVE WAHOO FROM TEH CUYAHOGA RIVER IN YOUR BACKGROUND GRAPHIC!!! INDIANS LOVING “FIRE WATER” IS A STEREOTYPE!!11!! [/unrelated]
My vote is retire Wahoo. If anyone from the group he characterizes is hurt, it’s time for him to go. He is on the wrong side of history.
We can’t control what other people do with their stereotypes. All we can control is what we can control.
Andrew. I totally hear that Cleveland sports has lately been about everything before and after the whistle … except for the Tribe (thanks for gettin’ outta Dodge, Chris Perez). But let’s be clear: it’s not caused by a curse but by the ineptitude of the teams’ management – bad drafting, not knowing about a FA’s mental health history, yadda yadda yadda – and player immaturity. Friday the Cavs’ season finally collapsed upon itself because they came out lethargic in the season’s only meaningful game. That wasn’t caused by my bad fan attitude or what amounts to the most syncophantic sports media in the nation. It’s their fault, not ours. People who whine “the negativity will drive the best players away” have horrible memories or have never lived in another professional sports market.
Have stayed out of the Wahoo debate but two quickies: 1) If you say you never hear a Native American complaining, where do you listen? If you mean at your local NE Ohio Walmart, that’s probably true, but hardly relevant. 2) Look at the WFNY masthead, Andrew and Craig. That Wahoo was deemed verboten even by the team that now lays low. You have retrieved it from the “R U Kidding Me” trashcan of history … why?
Harv, great point about the WFNY masthead. WFNY, I think it’s time for you to take a collective position on Chief Wahoo. You are an important and influential voice in the Cleveland sports community. Some of you have voiced criticism of the Indians organization for not taking a position. Lead the way…
Regarding Wahoo in the masthead, you may have stopped reading because someone kept Ctrl-C’ing + Ctrl-V’ing “Stop being a racist,” but Craig addressed this yesterday:
“I won’t lift the entire curtain on everything site-related, but I will offer that I believe we’ve lost touch with the designer who helped with this site and it’s more involved than pressing a button.”
I agree with you. Cleveland sports have been emotionally exhausting of late. They simply haven’t been fun.
I want to blame (most of) the media for this because they do everything in their power to fan-bait and stoke the flames. But the truth is that they have been handed far too much kindling to work with.
It is just terrible all the way around when I’d much rather listen to a book or NPR on the way to and from work than either of Cleveland’s sports radio stations.
As for this – “It’s just not fun for me right now. I’m pretty tired of all of it. I love sports. The games themselves are as fun it gets. But there’s so much stupid drama that surrounds Cleveland sports and it’s quite literally driving me insane. Well, maybe not insane, but it’s driving me to a certain form of lethargy with respect to the teams I love. Can’t we just have some good teams to root for without all the silly stuff? Is that really too much to ask for?”
I feel the exact same way…only problem is: the silly stuff will ALWAYS exist thanks to the ever-growing need for media content. Even when a team is clicking and winning and all seems good, there’s someone out there dumpster diving for a wedge to drive between teammates. Because who wants to just read about the games and actually only care about the outcomes? I probably love (Cleveland) sports too much to ever give up on them entirely, but unfortunately I can’t accurately describe myself as a “fan” without using the word “cynical.”
I’m not saying that front offices/management/spoiled athletes aren’t to blame at all – they certainly deserve their share. But remember when we didn’t care if our starting backcourt were besties? Granted that may have been because we didn’t have access to that information, but that just further proves that more == better.
1) Very true. But I still see it said in almost every debate on this topic.
2) Ok, we can get into this. We didn’t design this layout ourselves. We hired someone to do it for us. This was before I changed my stance on Wahoo. When we started WFNY, I was the one who first included the old school logos in our first site design (https://web.archive.org/web/20080201060438/https://waitingfornextyear.com/). At the time, I thought it was a great way to connect our site to the history of the teams we cover. And, to be brutally honest with you, I was ignorant. I didn’t realize the impact the imagery had on people.
So why is it still there? Well, for one thing, I don’t know how to change it. I don’t have the source files and the guy who designed the layout for us hasn’t responded to an email from me in years. That’s the honest truth.
Anyway, there are going to be some big changes around here in the very near future, and with them, you’ll see an end to that image in our header. People change and evolve, and my stance has changed a lot in recent years. The site design just hasn’t caught up to my changing views. Yet.
One last thing – a shout-out to the MLB schedule makers for bringing an NL team from the other side of the country to our wonderful weathered city for a series in early April. Should be no problem making up these 3 games throughout the season…Hey, at least it’s not snowing!
I’m totally with you. As I’ve mentioned in a previous WWW, I have completely become obsessed with NPR podcasts. I just find them infinitely more fascinating than fretting over whether teammates like each other and whether someone is staying or wants to leave, etc.
Well said. Like you, I’ll never give up on them. I just can’t. I’m just in a weird place right now with how extreme the craziness has been lately. I’m sure things will eventually change and we’ll get back to our normal levels of Cleveland sports craziness, haha.
Cleveland – where our normal level of craziness is halfway up any other city’s scale!
You need to re-think this. In my world view it’s flat out not true. And everyone’s hypocritical to some degree all the time. It’s unreasonable to assume you can and will have stances on everything everywhere all the time. In order to maintain my sanity I choose to only try to be a stakeholder where I feel like a stakeholder and where appropriate for me personally. Just because you say there’s some related impact of my opinion on Wahoo doesn’t make it true for me.
I’m in favor of the “Fellers”. Team’s greatest player and a World War II hero. The logo could be Rapid Robert in his signature windup.
I think the “Tribe” and feather idea is actually a rather good one, but I’m sure there are people out there who will ignore our attempt to please everyone.
And I hate spiders, but do think it would make for a cool team name/logo.
yeah, I missed Craig’s explanation. When I see 190+ comments and I scroll to see how much appears to be a battle of angry urine spray, I’m out. Need to conserve my precious bodily fluids.
Thx for honest response on #2.
Being a Cleveland sports fan hasn’t been particularly “fun” for me in some time now. I continue to follow and root, but it has started to feel more like an obligation in the past few years in particular, rather than something enjoyable. From a thousand miles away, only the biggest of stories about our teams seem to get public notice, and those stories have been (with the exception of the Tribe run to the play-in game last fall) negative, embarrassing, or both. So any/every conversation anyone around here wants to have involves ridicule (anything Browns), shame (fans in red face), or mocking (When is Kyrie leaving? How about them Heat?! Ohio State can’t win real games! Rays beat the Tribe!), and playing defense takes its toll. WFNY is the only real place for intelligent daily discussion of our teams (for MOST of us), but even the good feels of camaraderie are inevitably strained by constant unsuccessful rebuilds.
Most of this is nothing new to any of us. Hell, it’s the glue that binds Cleveland sports fans. And I won’t ever stand down from supporting my home teams. But I think we could all use some legitimately positive news–preferably on the field in the form of wins–to get the fun back. And soon.
While my personal take on Wahoo seems verboten*, despite my understanding of the flip side, what is saddest about this entire debate is that everyone on both sides seems completely focused on the character rather than the people.
For those who feel it honors Indians, then please use it to support Native Americans. For those who feel it dishonors them, use the platform as a way to drive assistance to the people you feel are being trampled. Instead, it turns into a fight about the character rather than about how to make it into a positive. If Chief Wahoo gets taken away, then what? Will the ones clamoring for its removal pat themselves on the back and move on, as so often happens? That’s not helping, that’s just hurting.
* I believe intent matters, and that it was created as a way to honor matters. If we teach people, especially kids who ask “what is that?” that it’s an homage to Native Americans, and why we need to honor them, and here are the struggles they have and do go through and here’s what we can do to help**, then that is how it would be viewed. If we turn it into a symbol of hate – which if we are honest, nobody in favor of the symbol views it as – then we cause division unnecessarily and create resentment in place of opportunity. And that’s a damn shame. /steps off soapbox
** …which is basically how I was taught, fwiw, and how I view it.
No matter how vigorously I may disagree with your stance, I hope you always feel comfortable expressing your opinions here. We’ve worked really hard to try to keep this a place for people to be able to lay out their opinions without being attacked for it. We’re not perfect at policing it, but we certainly try as best we can.
Now, I’ll respond to your points. I just have a hard time with knowing how I could ever explain to a kid how a figure like Chief Wahoo honors American Indians. If I can go back to a quote I found in the first article I ever wrote about the Chief Wahoo debate (https://waitingfornextyear.com/2013/10/its-time-to-say-goodbye-to-chief-wahoo/ ):
“The Chief Wahoo character used by the Cleveland Indians, and adopted by many high school teams, is a goofy, small man with a wide-eyed grin and a large nose. Native Americans contend this image is demeaning, as is the tomahawk chop, Mr. Sarabia said. Some Indians were fierce fighters and the tomahawk as a symbol of this, but Mr. Sarabia said he resents that side of the native American culture being exaggerated.
Mr. Sarabia said not all tribes used the tomahawk or were a warring tribe. “I have no identity with it,” he said.”
That’s a sentiment I have run into over and over again in my reading. It’s offensive to American Indians because it’s not representative of who they are. It’s a stereotype that boils all of them into one depiction of savagery.
People like the guy who dressed up in red face the other day don’t just wake up and decide to wear red face and be offensive on their own. They’re doing it because they’re trying to look like Chief Wahoo. When you see Chief Wahoo represented as a real person, it makes it all the more obvious just how insensitive it really is. So I wouldn’t feel comfortable distorting it into some kind of positive story for kids.
I don’t disagree that intent matters to some degree. I have never and will never accuse people who wear Indians gear with Wahoo on it as racists or people who are trying to offend American Indians. But no matter what the intent on our end is, the reality is that it is incredibly insensitive to the people it is marginalizing. Chief Wahoo is a stereotype, and it’s a painful stereotype for many American Indians. So I guess that’s why I would just have a hard time being able to turn Chief Wahoo into a positive thing.
I didn’t mean verboten on WFNY, and if I had, I wouldn’t have commented. I love this site, and that people can have conversations like this. You guys are doing a great job.
I do appreciate that you don’t accuse those who wear Wahoo as racist, but it appears that a sizable portion of those who find it racist similarly accuse those who wear it of being racist. That’s a shame.
Like I said, I do understand the flip side here, I merely disagree with it. The people trying to look like Chief Wahoo are trying to honor it (or have fun, but that in essence is honoring it), not be offensive. That matters. When someone puts on a kippah even if they aren’t Jewish, or even a whole Hassidic garb Fiddler on the Roof style, I understand that they’re trying to honor it even if it can come off as silly*. It really comes down to how we choose to interpret. Perhaps I’m biased because that’s how I was brought up, and I’m able to see Chief Wahoo as a positive, but if we focus on banning symbols rather than educating we have already lost.
* Unless they’re trying to mock, which is where intent matters.
http://i.imgur.com/E38Nu.gif
Cleveland Spiders have a worse sport history than the Cleveland Indians.
If we are going to change the name, then let’s do an upgrade, not a downgrade.
Fighting Irish was not founded by the Irish. They embraced the name and did take over the identity. The closest thing to it in Indian mascotness would be Florida State or Central Michigan. If anyone has any problem with those schools, then you need to bring it up with the Tribes that fully support their names.
Thats why I only drink rain water and grain alcohol. Because I know how the hard core Commie operates.
I avoided yesterday, but will say my piece on it and be done (don’t have time for a back-n-forth today anyway, which is why I’m diving in at all):
I don’t see an issue with a cartoon. Yes, I understand the historical significance of sambo, but it only becomes significant at this point if you bring it up. That is the point. I want us to evolve as a society where we are not bickering and devolving into race discussions because race should not matter in any way shape or form.
Indian tribes use Redskins as a mascot and “that is okay because it’s them” excuse doesn’t fly with me just like saying that blacks should be able to use the N-word. I understand that at one point it was a way of taking back from their captors, but, at this point, we should be okay enough as a society to be one. I am sick and tired of the US v. THEM mentality of so many race and political discussions. There are enough troubles in the world without having to fight amongst ourselves.
I know that race is still an issue in our society today (obviously, see 200 post thread yesterday and many more like it elsewhere), but I just disagree on how we will eventually get past it. We are still a melting pot society and until we learn how to not devolve everything into race discussions, we are not going to ever get past it. I know that cannot happen overnight, but this is just one issue of many where I think we can do a lot to find a middle ground and make true difference.
By that difference, I mean actually do what you say and honor the Indians of Ohio (preferred term is Indians currently). Find the local tribes and invite them and put up historically significant artifacts and billboards with information around the ballpark. Integrate the great history of our state into the game (first pitch, kids activities, etc.). Find a way to make everyone a part of the society rather than the “Ya Huh” v. “Nu Uh” conversations that seem to go on with the same arguments. If Chief Wahoo is such a sticking point before that can happen, the go “Indians” with a feather for the first I instead.
Or hey, maybe I think we are further along as a society than we actually are. And, it’s not like the Cleveland Indians have such a great history anyway. I would be completely fine with buying the Feller logo and calling the team the Cleveland Fellers. I’m fine with that as well.
you are being monitored. expect the next rainfall to be of the acid variety.
I love this point~ Think of it this way – only eliminate the ones where we played “cowboys and Indians” with, decimated their population, and then made fun of them. For example – the fighting irish logo isn’t offensive because the US never played “cowboys and Irish”, killed 99% of their population and then made racial stereotypes socially acceptable. As an interesting contrast, ask any native Irish person how they would feel if and English – English Premier League team started calling themselves “The London Drunken Irish” and made their logo Andy Cap. Same goes with any culturally based team. You can do it in a way that makes sense like the Vikings or you can do it the wrong way.
With that said, I think we can keep “Tribe” and a native American theme – just not one based on a red sambo like the Chief.
There. You win. No more Bernie and the Chief. I’ve got my mind right.
One small step for . . .
If any of you haven’t taken a look at the compilation “Dr. Seuss goes to War”, you should its a collection of political cartoons drawn by the good doctor to support the war effort. One particular thing that jumped out at me when I saw them the first time was the manner in which the Japanese were drawn. Below I’ve linked a quick article showing the depictions of Japanese in these cartoons. They share a striking similarity with Wahoo in that they have oversized buck teeth, exaggerated nose -in this case a pig snout, – and pencil line squinty eyes. I don’t know one could argue against the fact that the purpose of these cartoons was to dehumanize the Japanese for the good of the war effort. The exact same style of drawing was used to create Chief Wahoo. I can’t understand the mental gymnastics necessary to make yourself believe that there was no intent to mock Native American’s with the facial features of the Chief.
I do believe that the subjugation and eradication of Native populations in this country go back so far, and were so thorough that “we” have assimilated convenient pieces of their heritage. We have done so to such a degree and there are so few Natives to oppose “us” that “we” genuinely believe this culture is ours as well.
Such a tough topic to discuss in this format, but I guess I could summarize by saying if you have the chance to show respect for people by doing nothing more than changing your clothes you should do it. Its literally the “least” you could do.
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~hist32/History/S31%20-%20The%20Dark%20Side%20of%20Dr.%20Seuss.htm
I think a lot of problems can be solved by actually talking to those people and asking for their input.
If they say nothing short of removing everything and starting with a completely new team name is appropriate, then we know we’re not actually honoring them, as is alleged.
There’s no honoring in the team name or Chief Wahoo, and especially not by those who dress up as Wahoo.
One other thing since we’re doing this today, the “what about the fighting Irish?” thing makes me want to go on a face punching spree.
If an English Premier league team changed their name to the “fighting Irish” and used a fat red-bulbous nosed, belligerent caricature of an Irishman as their mascot ( lets say his nickname is “Bomber”) and that mascot spent games performing acts that are gross exagerations that paint the Irish as drunken brawlers. I guarantee there would be a different dialogue than the one that occurs here over the offensiveness of that name. There is a certain context that has to be considered when talking about these things.
This is quite reasonable, but I do think there is a big difference between how one depicts oneself vs someone else. The Indians didn’t pick the name because they identified as Indians, but because they considered Indians to be dangerous savages.
Thanks. Your last sentence is perfect. That’s where I come out.
As a child, I would listen for hours to my grandmother talk about the World War II years and the impact that the Pearl Harbor attack had on her, our family, and the country (my grandfather was an officer on MacArthur’s staff). While it is undeniable that my grandmother and her generation had deep-seeded prejudices and probably racist beliefs (a term that is much too over-used and poorly understood, IMO), it is also undeniable that those prejudices and beliefs were deeply-rooted in real pain and fear. Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Guadalcanal, and the hundred other horrible interactions that they had with the Japanese people in those years cannot be ignored. They don’t justify the reaction (and caricatures), but I refuse to ignore them. And, as a student of history, I think it’s important to understand how these societal realities have impacted us in other ways, to include our processing of and relations with the American Indian.
I think the Chief Wahoo depiction is embarassing and unfortunate. It is insensitive, silly, and a whole bunch of other stuff (possibly “racist,” but probably something short of it). I cannot ignore, however, that it is also the product of generations of thinking and beliefs that were at one time deeply-rooted in ancient fears and pains. The history of “European” interactions with “Indian” peoples is a story of xenophopia, brutality, and attrocity – on both sides, because, well, humanity. It happens that “my” xenophic, brutal, and attrocious side won, in a very xenophobic, brutal, and attrocious manner due to numbers, better technology, and more resilient germs. This does not excuse stuff like Chief Wahoo at all, but I feel like there is a way to “understand” how it came about without assuming a posture of self-righteousness and guilt as an enlightened, though unquestionably blessed, progeny of their bad acts.
I won’t judge too harshly the actions of my ancestors; but given the opporunity to see the world through a different lens, I will gladly, willingly, and readily relinquish the old vestiges of ancient fears and pains. As you said, if there’s a way to respect someone – even if it’s only because they ask for it (though in reality it is more than that), then it’s the least that I can do.
I feel like* once the opening homestand of the baseball season is over we need to stop the Chief Wahoo discussion so we can concentrate on insulting the Dolans.
* Love the way “I feel like” has entered common parlance to introduce facts. as in, I feel like 2 =2 =4. Cuz how we feel is important.
Agreed. It’s a step the Indians organization should have taken a long time ago.
I appreciate pretty much everything you said. And since we don’t have time for a back and forth, I’ll boil my response down to its simplest form. There are ways we wish the world really was, and then there is the reality of humanity. I can listen to debates on whether Chief Wahoo is racist or offensive and understand both sides. Where I draw a line is at “insensitive”. At the very least, I think Chief Wahoo is undeniably insensitive and promotes false stereotypes of what we are taught as kids that “Native Americans” are like.
In a perfect world, all of us would be equals. Oppression wouldn’t be a thing. And sure, we could all take a cartoon at face value for what it is. But the reality of humanity is that American Indians being offended by Chief Wahoo is a very real thing, regardless of whether we understand it, have the intent to harm or not, or even care about their point of view.
You guys are slacking.
There can be only one…
I feel like using “I feel like” is the precursor to opinion, not fact. But, that’s just like, my opinion, man.
“I feel like” was a crutch in my house that my wife and I attacked with energy until it was 99% eradicated from our speech.