Jerry Jones almost drafted Johnny Manziel
July 28, 2014Internal Goals: Barkevious Mingo looks forward to his sophomore season
July 28, 2014Kevin Love. Andrew Wiggins. It’s been exhausting, and we’re looking at four more weeks of it as the No.1 overall pick’s contract clock ticks. Granted, it’s not “LeBron James” exhausting. It’s more nervous excitement. The Cavaliers are going to have three REALLY good players one way or another. I’ve been quite outspoken in my desire to hold onto Andrew Wiggins, and I stand by that earlier sentiment. But, that doesn’t mean I’m not excited by the thought of James, Irving, and Love playing together in Cleveland.
But, if I’m reading the writing on the wall, Kevin Love will be a Cleveland Cavalier, Andrew Wiggins will probably be a Minnesota Timberwolf, and the weight of expectations on the Cavaliers will increase. They’ll go from Eastern Conference contender to supposed Eastern Conference shoe-in and maybe even title favorite. And that’s the scenario I want to talk about.
So, let’s put Wiggins and Bennett (along with picks and expiring contracts and a nice fruit basket) in Minnesota and look at how the Cavaliers are constructed:
PG – Kyrie Irving – Matthew Dellavedova
SG – Dion Waiters – Mike Miller – Joe Harris
SF – LeBron James – James Jones
PF – Kevin Love – Tristan Thompson – Dwight Powell
C – Anderson Varejao – Brendan Haywood
The Cavaliers would potentially have three open roster spots following the trade (assuming Lucas, Murphy, and Thomas either get included in the Love deal or get released). If the Cavaliers push all of their chips into the middle of the table, Ray Allen is likely to claim one of those three spots one would think. Then, that leaves a need for a third point guard and a backup center that’s a little more reliable than the veteran Haywood that missed all of last season due to a foot injury and is soon-to-be 35 years old.
Above all, the question that keeps me up at night is not whether Andrew Wiggins will end up being a perennial All-Star talent, but instead, “Is that team above good enough to win it all?” The cynic in me implores to further clarify the question to “Is that team above good enough to win it all NEXT SEASON?”
LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh didn’t do it in their first season. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen did. Three stars coming together has its hurdles associated with it. To complicate matters, the Cavaliers will have only five players from last year’s team returning. FIVE! Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Varejao, and Dellavedova. That’s it. LeBron has of course played with Varejao, Miller, Jones, and Allen if he comes. Still, when matched up against Indiana, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City, three teams that will have been largely the same core for the past three seasons, it’s likely to play a factor.
Normally, not winning the title in year one wouldn’t be the end of the world. But, that’s all we’re going to be guaranteed with Kevin Love when the Cavs pull the trigger on this deal. Sure, we’ll have Love’s Bird Rights, and we have two players he likely wants to play with in Irving and James. Still, I’m very uneasy about Love’s reported desire to play on the West Coast. Would he bolt to the Warriors or Lakers? Trust is a hard thing for me to have with regards to LeBron James this early in the process, but I do believe beyond a reasonable doubt that James intends to play the rest of his career in Cleveland. Is that enough for Love to take the five-year max deal when it’s offered to him by the Cavs? If it is, then the Cavaliers have Irving and Love locked up long-term and the loss of Wiggins is merely a matter of preference rather than an inequality of team control.
What if the team as currently constructed is not enough? Can the team add what’s necessary with its cap limitations? Being left only a first-round draft pick every other year near the end of the round and the mid-level and bi-annual exceptions, the Cavaliers will have to make additions. This team should not have any problems scoring or shooting or rebounding. What it may struggle with is getting defensive stops. While James, Varejao, and Delly are plus defenders, Irving, Waiters, Thompson, Miller, and Jones are below average to awful. Love is said to be an average defender. Without Wiggins and the recently-traded Carrick Felix, it would be nice to have another long athletic defender to pair with James as well as a shot-blocking center and a guy to bang down low with the Howard, Duncan, Lopez, Gasol, and Hibbert types.
So, for me, it really comes down to three burning questions. First, are Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson good enough to be the fourth and fifth best players on this team for the foreseeable future? Second, are the Cavs confident that if traded, Kevin Love will sign a long-term extension to remain in Cleveland? Third, can this team adequately defend at a championship level? If the answer to all three is yes, then fire away.
The part that isn’t a question for me is trading the future for the here and now. If Wiggins for Love allows the Cavaliers to win even just one title, it will not have been a failure, regardless of what Andrew Wiggins eventually becomes. But, the notion of one guaranteed year of Love, coupled with the expectations and short-term nature of much of the Cavalier core is more than enough to give me caution if I were David Griffin. Big moves have to be made sometimes, but they cannot be irresponsible and reckless. If it goes wrong, the Cavs could be left with Kyrie Irving and not much else in a couple of years.
58 Comments
Thank you. I’ve read a lot of articles, the Grantland piece comes to mind, where the should they/shouldn’t they question has been boiled down to giving up Wiggins for Love. if that was the case then I’d making that trade all day. Unfortunately it’s a lot more complicated than that when you have to match salaries and losing draft picks (the Memphis 9-14 pick especially).
I’m just glad this is happening now, under the current FO’s watch and not with Chris Grant. I have a lot of faith in whatever ultimately ends up happening being a sound basketball move. I wouldn’t have said that a year ago.
Does this trade have to happen before the season starts? Wouldn’t it be worth it to see how Wiggins plays for a half season before just sending him off? Wouldn’t Love’s price go down the closer to the trade deadline it gets?
These are the questions I have before the Cavs just go ahead and punt Wiggins.
Yes, I agree. The question isn’t if we should trade Wiggins for Love. The question is if we even have to*.
(*especially factoring in the uncertainty of Love’s contract status for both Minny & the Cavs)
As DP says, I would like to see them go into the season with Wiggins. Anything can happen, and lets say Love gets hurt in the first month or so. What then?
The only issue here is Minnesota knows this, and I don’t think they’ll let it drag on as they lose leverage everyday. They could very well choose a Golden State or Chicago offer over Dion-Bennett-picks.
Love needs to poison the offers by being adamant about not staying with the team he’s traded to.
My concern would be the time it takes for everyone to gel and that making the trade mid year would take away the learning curve you get in the preseason and would force the team to learn to play together at a crucial time in the season. I remember how bad Miami looked the first part of the 2010-11 season.
The potential Wiggins carrot actually plays into our favor here though. They would get raked over the coals for taking one of those deals by their fans if Wiggins is a possibility.
So, the closer we get to the deadline, the less likely we have to include Wiggins, but Minny may hold out on Chicago/GS in order to hopefully land Wiggins. And, if Love is saying that he wants to be a Cav, then it might even cause those teams to pull back their offers.
And, worst case, I still think we can sign-n-trade Love next July to a 1 year deal, then hit him up with a full extension after that season (same with LeBron) under the new CBA. Losing 1 year is not much when it might mean that we have a better chance for the next 4-6 years after this one. It opens that championship window a little wider.
Honestly, I feel bad for Minny fans. Really bad. This is the 2nd time this has happened to them in less than 10 years.
Bothers me that Love’s intention to jet has Flip Saunders is in a corner but or own org may be driving up the price because of the pressure of needing to immediately exploit having LeBron. Maybe it’s LeBron applying pressure with directives, but I kinda wish Chris Grant had left on better terms so he might be a negotiation consultant for Griffin. Maybe Grant’s talent eval left something to be desired but the boy could hardball in trades. Just hate the unrefuted rumor that they will only throw in Wiggins “if they have to.” Which if true does nothing but make Minny say “you have to.” That’s not negotiating from perceived strength.
Waiting for midseason may not help us; what if Wiggins in his first months looks more lost than a budding star? And then Love’s guaranteed tenure here is half a season within which to gel and compete for a ring – doubt that. And something tells me Minny would much rather deal now and start their rebuild in preseason. After all these expectations not getting Love would probably cost Griffin his job but I just don’t see Minny getting an offer better than Dion, Bennett and a couple of number one picks.
But, but…ESPN says we HAVE to.
And Now.
Right NOW.
Or else LBJ will leave, and the lake will catch on fire again, and the asian zebra carp will kill all the wallears, and, and, and, the Rock and Roll Museum will induct Justin Bieber!!
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!
Thanks, a great thorough look at the longer term implications of Bennett for Love. But I’m not sure why more isn’t made of keeping Bennett AND getting Love. For me it comes down to where does Love want to play. If it is in fact Cleveland then we shouldn’t give up any assets we don’t want to. Maybe Minnesota trades him to another team this year as a rental and he declines his option for next year. Then we sign and trade with that team at the beginning of next year (since they’d rather get something rather than letting him walk). If he doesn’t want to commit to Cleveland, then we shouldn’t be the team to do the 1 year rental.
I totally get that, but I’m looking at it from the standpoint of “what’s the best for the Cavs for the next 5-7 years?”
A title is nothing to sneeze at, but for me it would be better for the Cavs to try to be good for the rest of LeBron’s career instead of trying to load up for one title this season or next and becoming the 2014 Heat sooner rather than later.
The prospect and ensuing deal to sign Love screams win now. It would be inconsistent based on these actions to trade away the young talent and future #1 picks but at the same time claiming that you’re building for the future and the first year is basically a throw away.
Love needs to poison the offers by being adamant about not staying with the team he’s traded to.
As I stated yesterday Love may have just done this which could account for all of the talk suddenly that Minnesota was really interested in Chicago’s supposed latest offer. If Love has indeed told Minnesota he only wants to go to Cleveland to play with LBJ then of course the TWolves would try and get the Cavaliers to up their offer. Also if Love has indeed done this then I like the chances he stays and signs a new deal just like LBJ most likely will do.
Notice the number of “if”s used it’s complete conjecture just trying to be rational about it all. Sure I’m a Love fan but like I’ve said before if nothing happens the Cavaliers retain Wiggins plus have plenty of nice options for other trades. You have Hayward’s contract, the three expiring deals just added plus Varejao. That’s some serious $$$ for other moves say at the trade deadline.
Hey I want me some Love yesterday the simple fact is the Cavaliers, as previously mentioned ad nauseum here, don’t have to be in a hurry period.
C’mon DP when you haven’t won a title in 50 years in any of the major sports leagues you can’t think about 5-7 years later. LBJ gave the Cavaliers 7 years the first time the teams he had around him were a joke not to mention the coach. Look at the last 4 years w/o LBJ. He’s back. Now is not the time to fall back into the typical Cleveland way and be cautious and worry about 5-7 years not after the last 50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-fkSYDtUY
Yep.
This is poker, and Griffin has his shades on, and hat pulled down.
Welcome to the big-boy table, people.
Indeed.
If Griffin is patient and smart, he may very well be able to land Love without sacrificing Wiggins.
The only people in a hurry are ESPN and their minions.
Well now something like this would have me feeling pure giddy!
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/yjbmm.gif
Don Griffin will make them an offer they can’t refuse. đ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeldwfOwuL8
“The only people in a hurry are ESPN and their minions.”
Yes, apparently they didn’t read LeBron’s letter, since they didn’t get the exclusive:
“I’m not promising a championship. I know how hard that is to deliver. We’re not ready right now. No way. Of course, I want to win next year, but I’m realistic. It will be a long process, much longer than it was in 2010.”
I read this, and that’s what makes me wonder: why the rush? Why do they have to give up a guy who COULD be a 15-year stud to try and win right the heck right now? If LeBron plans on finishing his career here (which is, of course, debatable), he has to see this long-view as well.
Do you throw away a better chance at a championship in 2016-2020 for a better chance at one in 2015? Winning championships are hard and definitely not guaranteed.
NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW the clocks already ticking and the season hasn’t even started. Win the first then we’ll talk about a second besides as this off-season has demonstrated just about anything can happen especially in Cleveland!
Does Flip still have family in Cleveland? If so I say “special delivery!”
http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/18085/17971885_5.jpg?v=8D0B651EBAB05A0
‘NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW the clocks already ticking”
I hate this attitude. I hate it.
1. Getting Love in no way guarantees a championship, and there’s truly no way of knowing whether Love will be better than Wiggins in five years.
2. Assuming #1, then, you can’t convince me that the “drought” being 53 years is somehow vastly more intolerable than it being 51, which (if we’re assuming that the Cavs probably aren’t ready to win a title next June) is most likely the best case.
3. The attitude of damn-the-torpedoes and throw everything into the center to win one now in many ways hamstrings your future. Love is 26 when the season starts, and Wiggins is 19. Is Wiggins’ ceiling higher than Love’s? If it is, five years from now you’re paying Love WAY more money to be seven years older and to be on the downside of his career while Wiggins is in his prime.
Yes, I want a Cleveland team to win a title. But, I’d also like them not to load up to win one, fail, and then have to wait 20 more years for a shot to win one because they tried to “win now” because some arbitrary clock is “ticking” when, in fact, it’s been ticking for 13 years longer than I’ve been alive. It can tick for two more years for me if it means the Cavs could have a run similar to what the Spurs have done.
I am talking about winning the first. Trading for Love doesn’t guarantee winning at all. It just makes it harder to do after this next season if we give up Wiggins when we didn’t have to do it.
Good points DoubleCav. There are more potential scenarios out there than just Wiggins, et. al for Love right now.
Barring injuries, I have to imagine that Anthony Bennett, and any other trade assets the Cavs have are only going to increase their stock this season, especially playing with Lebron.
“Now is not the time to fall back into the typical Cleveland way and be cautious and worry about 5-7 years not after the last 50.”
To me, your sports franchises should ALWAYS be looking at what’s best for the franchise for the next five years. Maybe that makes me “cautious,” but I prefer to think of it as “smart”. For example, if you can empirically prove that having Love will be better for the franchise five years from now than having Wiggins, then by all means pull the trigger. I happen to think (with, admittedly, as little concrete evidence) that having Wiggins five years from now will be better than having Love.
Titles can’t be factored in, because there are no guarantees. Just ask the Heat.
IMO, a lot of this “championship now” talk is just noise unless the Cavs first figure out who is playing center. Excuse me for not being excited about injury prone Andy and injured Haywood.
Hey hate is a pretty strong word mister! But to be fair I hate your attitude as well. Of course the addition of Love doesn’t guarantee a championship this is a straw man argument. Everyone knows they have to play the games. But you can’t tell me the Cavaliers are better with Love then they would be with Wiggins right now. We can only talk right now because there is no tomorrow. And furthermore for as much as you want to discount Love, who is just 25, five years from now I could do the same with Wiggins who is one year out of college and still a teenager. You have no idea what he’ll be as a player none. Love is proven he’s a 25-12-4 man an All-Star a top 10 player NOW!
The future is in now way torpedoed or hamstrung at all. This is another straw man argument. The simple fact is Love could very well sign a deal just like LBJ in fact I’d be shocked if he didn’t. This means the same flexibility would be available as pre-Love the only negative is you traded Wiggins.
Now if Love comes to Cleveland and signs a deal longer then say 2 years well then yes Griffin has his work cut out for him in managing the salaries but look what Griffin did in order to be able to accomadate LBJ. I feel confident he can make the puzzle pieces fit.
Finally as to your last point that sounds an awful lot like the Cleveland Indians and remind me again how many championships have they won in the last 20 years? This all fits right into my Cleveland Consternation Syndrome. People are all but afraid of success even though they haven’t won a major professional sports championship in 50 years.
Why 5 years why not 4? How have the last 4 years been for the Cavaliers?
The Heat have won 3 titles, been to 4 straight finals and won 2 of those. There’s nothing wrong with Miami. Can you say the same for the Cavaliers the last 4 years? I feel like a broken record here.
Why 5 years why not 4? How have the last 4 years been for the Cavaliers?
The Heat have won 3 titles, been to 4 straight finals and won 2 of those. There’s nothing wrong with Miami. Can you say the same for the Cavaliers the last 4 years? I feel like a broken record here.
When I said “ask the Heat” I said it from the stand point that pretty much everyone assumed in 2010 that the Heat were going to win titles every year. They got to the Finals, yes, but they didn’t win just as much as they did.
So, to my point, you can’t say that getting Kevin Love immediately means titles for the Cavs, because they have to play the games. I personally don’t think it’s worth it to ship out Wiggins before he even plays a game to “win now” when there’s no guarantee that you will “win now”.
That’s all I’m saying.
I don’t know who assumed what but the fact is they got to the finals all four years including the first one and if memory serves me well they weren’t blown out by Dallas either. So that’s a tough final series loss year one, win in year two, a win in year three which was remarkable and finally a blowout loss to the Spurs in year four who really could have beaten Miami the year before. To say that two wasn’t enough sounds like a city who hasn’t won any.
The rest is all our best guesses. Like I’ve said before I’m a Kevin Love fan always been and always will. To have him in Cleveland for whatever reasons along with LBJ and Kyrie Irving would be amazing. Would it work? Who knows but I know this: It’s better then the last 4 years. And I know this: If you never try, you’ll never know. No guts, no glory. When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
In a dream world…Griffin lands love and keeps Wiggins. I’ve already had the dream of LBJ returning, may I have another?
Progressive Field next?
https://gma.yahoo.com/korean-baseball-team-shows-off-robot-fans-154755817–abc-news-topstories.html
I believe the Cavs would be better off developing players and adjusting to a head coach this year. Leaving opportunities open for players next year, would allow them to fill hole’s in their system. Just my opinion but this would be a great year to build a strong foundation.
“To say that two wasn’t enough sounds like a city who hasn’t won any.”
You’re not hearing my argument. I would love a title. But, you know what I would love more? Three titles. Or five titles.
“The rest is all our best guesses. Like I’ve said before I’m a Kevin Love fan always been and always will. To have him in Cleveland for whatever reasons along with LBJ and Kyrie Irving would be amazing. Would it work? Who knows but I know this: It’s better then the last 4 years.”
Keeping Wiggins and signing LeBron makes this team better than the last four years, too, so I don’t see your point.
Don’t go all-in just to win one because of some arbitrary title drought clock when you can focus on and build a franchise that could be in contention every year until LeBron’s wheels come off if they play their cards right.
You’re not hearing my argument.
hey noobie, welcome to WFNY. let me introduce you to Sham đ
When considering the future rosters of this team, you have to take Haywood’s contract into account. The Cavs may have a MAJOR opportunity to upgrade again next year, even after having traded for Love. Haywoods $10.5M salary can get dealt in a sign & trade to bring in another big player. Guys like MGasol, Al Jefferson, Aldridge and more could be free agents. I feel a lot more comfortable with a Kyrie/Dion/Lebron/Love/Gasol or even a Kyrie/Wiggins/Lebron/Love/Gasol next year as a serious title contender.
Quit butting in dude I mean it’s every section. I know you have nearly 18,000 comments but seriously!
I simply say this team is better situated with a triumverant of Irving-LBJ-Love then it is with Wiggins. For all of you downplaying, discrediting and second guessing Love I could do the same with Wiggins. And much easier seeing how he’s 19 and hasn’t played a single professional game. Unlike Love who at 25 already is a 25-12-4 man.
And who doesn’t want to win multiple championships. The problem is you need to win one to start. Wiggins won’t be anywhere remotely close to Love year one, probably not year two and maybe not year three so how can anyone say after five years that’s better then had a proven Love been on the team.
Each to their own fortunately Griffin makes the call.
He should have faked an injury in TEAM USA Ball. To bad he pulled out.
As well as Varejao who makes nearly $10M this season. But don’t forget Irving’s new deal kicks in next year as well. Jacob Rosen is much better at all this salary cap stuff. When I become GM of a team I’m offering him a job.
Permission to change the URL to waitingfornextmonth.com
I Love espn reporting Minny wants Thad Young. Either it’s totally false or just proves Minny’s idiocy. Trade Love for a worse player who also only has a year left on his contract! Hopefully this is Minny lowering expectations for their fan base and setting up a three way with the Cavs.
Oh, big surprise, the guy with a picture of a Red Sox World Series ring thinks we should go for broke.
When you say “there is no tomorrow”, that’s the type of talk that gets 95% of general managers fired and exerts extra pressure and forced decisions.
I’m not saying Love is necessarily that, but to scoff at anyone who feels a little hesitant to include the #1 pick in a highly regarded draft on a rookie contract and team control for at least four years in a deal for a guy with 11 months of guaranteed control is just ludicrous.
“It’s better than the last 4 years….”
Umm, your point bringing this up would be….?
I’m not discounting Love at all. I’m discounting the fact that he will be here in four years. Wiggins is locked up. Love is not. That plays a factor. Ignoring it is absurd.
I keep coming back to Kawhi Leonard. James watched an unaccomplished 22yo flourish in an unselfish team oriented system. Even if the Cavs are living and dying on the whims of LBJ once again, I have to think that this time is different. Has his team conception evolved? Does he now value the power of youth, the depth of a top to bottom great franchise? Unselfish, beautiful basketball? Is his real desire to recreate the Spurs in Cleveland? To build an all time great team? Something legendary yet sustainable? He’s accomplished so much, why not shift focus? Maybe he craves the untangible now. Personal greatness, but not only personal greatness, true team and all time franchise greatness. I think he needs the rabid fan base that’s going to be held breathless watching his team ball. He needs to do things no one else has done, at least not in 50 years. He needs the immortality that sports so rarely grants. He needs to transcend the sporting world and become a true cultural and civic icon, to be the greatest their ever was. He needs to fulfill the prophecy of “the chosen one.” He needs to finish that narrative, he needs to write his own unique story. I didn’t really buy into the “finishing his career in Cleveland” talk, but now I’m beginning to see it. The Chosen One chose Us to come along for the ride and I can’t wait to see where it takes us. Because this ride is going to be fun and it’s going to be worth it. Go Cavs!
You aren’t discounting your guessing the simple fact is you have no idea whether Love will be here in four years or not. For that matter we don’t know if LBJ will be here in four years either. Nor do I but you sure seem to be hung up on that fact more then anything.