Billy Winn “gave himself up” on interception, nullifying touchdown
December 21, 2014Your Cleveland Cavaliers have won 11 of their last 14 games: While We’re Waiting…
December 22, 2014The Cleveland Browns faced off against the Panthers in a game that was made even more meaningless with the official elimination of the Browns from the NFL playoffs. The Chargers won a game on Saturday that officially did the Browns in and seeing if Johnny Manziel could do better than his debut wasn’t nearly enough to get me up for the Browns game against the Panthers. As it turned out Johnny Manziel didn’t even get to finish the game. The Browns under Brian Hoyer made it kind of interesting, but ultimately fell to Carolina 17-13.
The story of the game for the Browns was probably Manziel leaving early. With less than two minutes to go in the first half, Johnny Manziel ran out of the pocket to his left. He was heading toward the sidelines, but two Panthers defenders cut him off. Manziel lowered his shoulder and made contact with one of the defenders. The other cam a bit over top of him, landing on his legs. Manziel left the game with a hamstring injury and he wouldn’t return. His second game wasn’t as bad as his first, but it was still bad. Three for eight, 32 yards passing, one field goal drive, and an early exit via injury before halftime.
Brian Hoyer started the second half and the Browns didn’t do a whole lot, but then the Browns’ defense stood up again. The defense got Cam Newton out of the pocket and forced him into a really awful attempt at a throwaway when Barkevious Mingo got a hand on Newton’s arm during his throw attempt. The ball fluttered in the air and Billy Winn made a great play to intercept the pass. While he was on the ground, Jordan Poyer ran over grabbed the ball and ran it all the way back for a touchdown. Except it wasn’t a touchdown. The refs decided that Billy Winn had “given himself up” and that the play was dead there. The Browns ended up with a field goal making the game 10-6, but it was an insult that the game wasn’t tied.
The Browns did have some chances to take the lead, and even took it momentarily in the second half. The defense forced a punt after helping the Browns pull within four with the field goal. Travis Benjamin had a nice return with – surprise – no flags on the field. That gave the Browns the ball at their own 45 trailing by four and a chance to take the lead with a touchdown. Of course the Browns couldn’t do anything on offense and punted the ball. To add insult to injury though the refs blew another call and Mike Pettine didn’t bother challenging it.
It wasn’t a big play, but on first down, Brian Hoyer completed a five-yard out to Andrew Hawkins. As he was being tackled and after his knee hit the ground the defender knocked the ball out. It harmlessly landed out of bounds, but it was definitely a catch from my point of view. The refs signaled incomplete and the Browns moved right along to throw over the top, deep to Travis Benjamin, also incomplete, on second and 10. Again, I know it was just a five yard completion, but where’s the challenge? The refs bungled it and the Browns can use every five yards they can get.
As I said, the Browns did take the lead. Brian Hoyer found Jordan Cameron on an 81-yard catch and run that caught Roman Harper sleeping in the secondary. It felt like justice for Browns fans who watched Jordan Cameron get man-handled multiple times by Harper on previous plays with no yellow laundry finding its way onto the field. In this day and age of illegal contact and defensive holding, it is pretty astonishing that Cameron couldn’t buy a call. On this play, he didn’t need one.
Alas, the Browns couldn’t hold that lead. The Panthers went 64 yards in seven plays as Cam Newton found Jonathan Stewart to give the Panthers a 17-13 lead. The Browns lose again, despite the fact that Brian Hoyer helped make it interesting in the second half.
We really didn’t learn anything about the Browns today, and probably won’t next week. Still, you have to wonder who will start next week at quarterback. Right now, given experience levels, there’s very little doubt that Brian Hoyer gives them the best chance to actually win the game regardless of injury status. It would be easy to just start Hoyer while pointing at Johnny Manziel’s hamstring, but we’ll see what Mike Pettine and the Browns want to do.
45 Comments
Manziel’s injury came on a designed QB sweep with no blocking…ran into Luke Kuechly. Who the hell designed/called that play? A player like Kuechly should be identified on every single play.
Also, Manziel was only allowed to throw 1 ball downfield. The perfect deep slant to Hawkins. Hoyer comes in and is automatically getting the play action deep ball bomb that he can’t throw. I don’t know if Pettine is the biggest fan of Manziel.
Also, on the interception turned 10 yard gain Hoyer underthrew a wide open Benjamin. Benjamin had 8 yards on his guy. Hoyer underthrew the ball by 5 yards. As he has all season.
Maybe we need 2 new QBs in next year. I don’t know. All I know is this defense has so many injuries and has played their collective tails off. For the majority of the season the D has been a joy to watch and I’m glad I’ve spent 15 games watching them.
Manziel doesn’t pass the eye test, but in his defense you have to give him a fair shake.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Manziel is more of a project than we thought. Makes it tough for next year to decide on a qb.
Will there be talk of bringing Hoyer back again? Its tough to find a franchise qb. Having Mack
would have made a big difference no matter who the qb would have been.
I don’t think it’s very complicated. Hoyer is by far the superior QB. Start him next week and sign him for next season.
Everyone who is whining that Hoyer is terrible and not a starter: Welcome to the NFL where 50% of QBs are not “starters” or the “future”. It doesn’t matter that Hoyer stinks; he’s the best we have. If you don’t like it go root for the Steelers or Packers or the freakin’ Patriots.
I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the losing. Bernie was right. We’ve built a culture of losing. Play to win. Period. Be intolerant to losses. Be disgusted with losing and play every Sunday to win. Not for tomorrow. Not for the future. Now. Put your best effort out every Sunday regardless of circumstance.
The QB that gives us the best chance to win this year and ALL of next season that wears a Browns uniform is Brian Hoyer. I wish we had Aaron Rodgers but we don’t.
They should sign Hoyer and yet again find a QB in the draft. Fair or not, Manziel looks completely lost.
And when going with a 30 year old Hoyer next year leads to six wins against a much tougher schedule next year, and we’re no closer to figuring out how to build a contender?
I get that Browns fans would always rather have one more win, but the priority needs to be building a contender, and, really, considering the current stage of the coaching/roster, figuring out how to build a contender. Being intolerant of losses isn’t going to magically build a contending roster.
Yeah, it might not be fun figuring out how to get a Pro Bowl QB on the roster, but handing the reigns over to a 30 year old Hoyer is clearly not the way to do that.
Yea, again, I’m sorry if you don’t like the reality of what the Browns are. I really am. Unfortunately Hoyer is the best we have this year and will be next year too. Again, I know, it sucks..being a Browns fan sucks.. Don’t know what to tell you other than if we’re not playing to win were playing to lose. We can draft another QB and continue to groom one but we have to play to win. At this point we have to ask ourselves why we continue to take the field.
That drive against Buffalo was pretty sweet…. minor league baseball player in 2 years.
I think if either of us is upset about the reality of the Browns, it’s you, not me. I’m not the one ranting with empty phrases like “be intolerant to losses” and “if we’re not playing to win we’re playing to lose”. Those sound like grand plans, but really they have no value. I’ve accepted what the Browns are, and I’ll still turn the game on every week and hope they win, but I’m not going to let an expected result – a bad team losing a game – affect me in any way. Congrats Browns, you’ve completely numbed me.
It is unfortunate that Hoyer looks like the best QB currently on the roster. But that doesn’t mean he’s the best course of action to building an actually good squad.
Why they continue to take the field? Because Haslam is going to make a ton of money from packed houses because Browns fans will still go nuts over a team that can win seven games against an easy schedule and five against a tough one.
On a different note…Scott Solomon and Pierre Desire showed promise… so we got that going for us.. which is nice
Hahahaha!!!! You’re right!!! You’re right! Let’s draft another QB! Fire the coach! Fire the GM! Johnny The Midget has a future in the NFL! You’re right! Hallelujah!!! Where’s the Tylenol!
Sigh. If you want to respond to what I actually said, cool, I’m down to have a conversation about the future of the Browns. If you want to complain and rant and put words in my mouth, go ahead, continue to use the Browns as the vehicle to do what actually makes you happy. Have at it hoss.
Listen Steve. This is all I’m saying: The QB position is the most important position in football. In the NFL it is VERY hard to get consistently good QB play. Hoyer has played bad. He has also played good. The best QB the Browns have on their roster this year and WILL HAVE NEXT YEAR is Brian Hoyer. We need to simplify things and play to win. We just need to win. Build a culture of winning or trying to win. Continue to improve your defense, improve the Oline and start Hoyer. We can draft another QB and groom him for the following season but at the QB position there are no easy fixes.
Also, Manziel: What do your eyes tell you?
“The QB position is the most important position in football”
Gee thanks for explaining this to me. If you weren’t here to talk down to me, I wouldn’t have any idea how any of this works.
“We need to simplify things and play to win.”
More empty phrases.
Like I’ve said, I get that Browns fans will always want one more win, and I turn the game on every week hoping they win. You haven’t stumbled on some grand revelation here in crying out for more wins.
My eyes tell me that Manziel isn’t the topic currently at hand, and that my pessimism about him has little to do with the question of whether Hoyer in 2015 is a good idea or not. My eyes also tell me that going with Hoyer in 2015 is just delaying figuring out who the next Pro Bowl/double digit win Browns QB is, and that’s what I care about, not scratching out a sixth win.
Manziel is the topic at hand here. Manziel did not give us the better chance to win. Pettine even refused to say so himself. So “we need to simplify things and play to win” is not an empty phrase. It is exactly what we need to do.
Speaking of empty phrases what is it exactly that you are saying? I’m saying Hoyer is the best option we have right now and will have come kickoff next season. Do you have an opinion other than you don’t like our current options?
No college QB coming out next year will put us in a better position on opening day. Do you want Cutler? Ok. I’m not a big fan but at least it’s an opinion. Do you think Manziel is the future?
We have to play somebody. So what is it dude?
Sounds like the Mangini process to me.
The first four comments in this discussion between us all mentioned Hoyer and none mentioned Manziel. Manziel didn’t come up until you kind of went off the rails there putting words in my mouth. Somehow I confused that for Hoyer being the topic of conversation.
You keep using corporatesque phrases as if there is some light to be turned on and the players and coaches will suddenly realize that winning is better than losing. I won’t take them away from you. I do wonder what specific things you think actually needs to be simplified.
What am I saying exactly? “Hoyer in 2015 is just delaying figuring out who the next Pro Bowl/double digit win Browns QB is, and that’s what I care about, not scratching out a sixth win.”
You’re darn right that my main opinion is that we don’t have any good options. Repeating myself again, I think they’re still figuring out how to build a contender. They’ve got some work to do to figure out who is going to be that next Browns QB that can lead this team to at least one playoff win, and have to accept that is almost certainly not going to happen in 2015. But they have to try to find and develop that guy, and going “well Hoyer is better than anyone else we have right now” is, if we’re going with nebulous nonsense phrases, “playing not to lose”.
You say a lot without saying anything. Who do you want to start next season?
You gotta choose someone!
“but two Panthers defenders cut him off.”
No. What actually happened was one Panther defender came off his block while the other Panther defender (a defensive end) CHASED HIM DOWN FROM THE BACKSIDE.
Manziel’s “college speed” is exactly that.
What’s there to say about the Browns other than, again, they aren’t good enough, and they really aren’t that close?
I wish I could tell you that I was the expert that you seem to be on young quarterbacks, but I’m not. Sell half the draft for Mariota/Winston, pump 80 hours a week into developing the 22 year old you already have on board that still needs a lot of work, identify a guy that will fall to the spot that you draft from or is available in free agency that can be a star. No matter what, I don’t expect it to be anything less than extremely difficult to figure out who that next Browns QB is that can meet any of the standards I’ve mentioned above.
But it’s still necessary, because it’s not Hoyer, and spending time on Hoyer in 2015 is, sigh, again, a waste of time. I get that we’re not going to agree on this big picture vs little picture thing, but I get where you’re coming from, being so sick of losing, that every last bit of goodness means a lot to you.
my 2 cents: Give Manziel next year with the job guaranteed, hes seen he needs to put the work in to succeed so give him a second chance(Hes admitted to slacking all year). Worst case you sell high(er) after a flashy preseason. I mean its not like most QBs look like pro bowlers from their first NFL start…
by far?? Hoyer sure gets rid of the ball quickly but he usually throws it to a guy standing on the sidelines, to the ground, or to the other team. He is pretty bad. just for kicks, he decided to pad his stats – over the last 5 games he now has 9 INTs and 1 TD. The OL was terrible again today, and so was just about everyone else, but Hoyer is not the answer.
This is the NFL, and players don’t respond well when management dictates who the starting QB will be. There’s a reason every veteran on the team was pulling for Hoyer to remain the starter. They know he’s better, they know that Hoyer gives them the best chance to win. Hoyer gives them the best chance to look good and remain employed in the league.
You know how every free agent of note wanted to leave this off-season after the firing of Chudzinski? It also had to do with management handing the job to Brandon Weeden despite him being the worst QB on the roster. Former players have taken shots about this on twitter. There’s a reason the Browns aren’t a free agent destination and had Ward leave, Jackson leave and Mack attempt to leave. They need a winning culture to keep their guys here, and they need to start with an attitude that they need the *best* QB they can get their hands on starting. That’s not Manziel.
I don’t know that it’s Hoyer either. But put it this way, there have been very good QBs acquired either by trade or free agency. Manning was a free agent, he signed with a team with a long winning history, stable coach, and a good front office. The Cardinals have strung together a great year on the backs of Carson Palmer and Drew Stanton. Before that, they went to the Super Bowl on the arm of Kurt Warner. The Chiefs haven’t started a homegrown 1st round pick at QB since 1983 and have put together competitive teams. You’re not getting those guys here, not with the “tear down, rebuild everything” mindset here. You need to establish a good group of players to build around a QB before drafting or picking one up in free agency.
If you don’t have a good system around, even supremely talented players can end up like Robert Griffin III if they end up in a place like Washington. The coaches we have are good. The system is working. We have a lot of good complimentary pieces. Do your best with it, and good things will happen.
Is anyone else concerned that the same people who engaged in a process to determine Manziel worthy of moving up in the first round are the same people responsible going forward? If you believe it was ultimately Haslam who decided to bring Manziel on board are you concerned that the rest of the management team are merely sycophants?
Manziel’s incredibly poor performance in two short games and the coaching staff’s apparent inability to scheme around him has created a new level of despair on multiple fronts I hadn’t imagined before.
Take away the 81 yard TD to a wide open Cameron and Hoyer’s numbers were awful.
Manziel looks completely lost. He can take his “I guess I should have prepped to play THIS season” attitude and go.
That stupid money sign… Every time they showed a replay of him today, there it was. When they drafted him I thought a little swagger might be good for this team. Now, I’m pretty sure all the Browns got was a gigantic neon sign that says “ME!”
Half of this team is good enough to make the playoffs, and the other half has let them down. Hoyer was consistently mediocre to below average al year, but where in the world has the offense gone? I want a team that can actually score 30+ in a league with rules that give the offense a big advantage. The defense is ready as-is. All offense this offseason.
I would be content if I never saw Manziel play again.
I’m very concerned that the Browns apparently have hired a kindergarten teacher who thinks its more important to teach lessons (See Gilbert and West) than trot the best men out there to play professional football.
Honestly, the Browns should look at Conner Shaw as a backup. Why not? Why not give him a chance to start if you want to learn anything?
I am more worried because if the BRASS decided to not trade up and just take Bridgewater, the Browns would have had two more draft picks and a better QB. Outside of one drive in Buffalo, Manziel has been a disaster.
Last season, when Josh Gordon got man to man coverage, they chucked the ball and more often than not, he made a play. Stretch the field with the guy. His routes have been fine the last two games, but he is getting zero deep targets. Watch the game again on your DVR, he is isolated often. I would take that matchup more often.
Agree with all of this, Johnny Manziel is not an NFL QB.
Hard to know the dynamics of this FO team based solely on columnist assumptions, fan frustration and Manziel hate. But when I look at the Browns the last few years I see an inordinate number of people placed in difficult positions to immediately succeed. Last year, Chud’s roster denuded of anything resembling a RB and sinking or swimming with Weeden. This year: Pettine juggling the first year learning curve with the Manziel Circus, losing significant players to injury/suspension, Josh Gordon’s long limbo, crappy FG kicker and two first rounders who contribute nothing. Hoyer playing in his third system and third OC in 3 years, with a rookie backfield and at the end his 4th center. If Haslam forced Farmer to take Manziel that’s a potential career derailer. A young GM is tethered to his first round QB, either like a helium balloon or a lead anchor.
This org will pay for the sins of the NFL’s shotgun marriage between Haslam and Banner. If it will be a while before Haslam can bud out of personnel decisions because he has a football guy he trusts I don’t like it, I think it’s foolhardy, but I get it.
I’m not sure if this is just a talking head point but once Manziel went down and Hoyer replaced him, they kept saying that they had a “simplified” gameplan or a vanilla offense in place for Manziel. Why? Why would you not give him everything? He’s been learning it for 15 weeks!
Regarding Hoyer’s underthrow, it came after the in stride throw to Cameron I think. I sat there thinking “wow, maybe he can make those throws” to “Nope…same old Hoyer”.
I hope if Manziel is healthy for next week they let him play to his strengths. Do designed rollouts, play a bit more from shotgun and let the guy throw downfield. After all, we are just playing for draft order and a possible 3-3 split in division.
If the lessons are who to pick up in a blocking scheme or the proper technique to playing corner back or how to work like a professional then I’m okay with it.
Anybody else see Hoyer say something to Manziel and begin to warm up before the Panthers even kicked off after going up 10-3? Go back and re-watch the broadcast, before the kickoff and you’ll see Hoyer with his helmet on and throwing the ball on the sideline… Then Manziel gets killed on a QB sweep and is knocked out the game with a hamstring injury? I call shenanigans.. They wanted to pull Johnny but made it look like he got hurt by running a stupid QB sweep. It all seemed like a very strange sequence to me because I don’t ever recall seeing a back up with their helmet on and throwing while the starting QB is perfectly healthy. Plus that is such a questionable play call as others have said.
I agree, almost impossible to know with certainty the FO dynamics. If Haslam was, in fact (a fact we clearly do not know beyond a shadow), the driving force to draft JM I hope this serves as his final hard lesson to let football people make football decisions.
Agreed, but we should have just drafted the 2 guys Oakland did – Mack and Carr. The failure to stay true to our “board” and select the bpa is killing us. Same as the year they drafted Richardson & Weeden. We need to stop drafting for need and simply get great players. Hopefully Farmer has learned this lesson.
Unless Mack was already not liking Johnny.
Why would you draft a QB other than Winston when we already have Shaw?
In defense, they had no real good idea about Hoyers ability and health at the time. I like their UFA pickups as well and hopefully Shaw makes the QB point moot in the future, That would make the 2014 draft/pickups a home run no matter how Manziel and Gilbert turn out. I do wish that they hadn’t moved up for Johnny Rotten though.
If Farmer really didn’t want to draft Johnny then I’m sure he could have “not found a trading partner ” pretty easily
Good point.
Finally I see what I’ve been looking for this morning. Was Jonny really injured? I call Bullshit! No way does a hammy get injured on that play. First he grabs at his knee. Then on the training table he pushes himself backwards with the said bad leg. Do guys with Hammys really go to the locker room so early after they are hurt without sidelines treatment? I’m not saying he wasn’t injured only because I don’t know, but that whole deal seemed fishy, especially after Hoyer got injured.