Cleveland Browns Week 16 Winners and Losers
December 22, 2014Video: LeBron James Jr. is good at basketball
December 22, 2014The Cleveland Browns are constantly looking for “the answer” at quarterback, but it seems more and more that they’re asking the wrong question. The question they keep asking is how do you come up with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers—hell, even Ben Roethlisberger or Joe Flacco? The Browns seem to operate as if they’re primary mission in life is to land some Holy Grail of a player at quarterback, and that’s missing the point completely. The answer doesn’t waltz into the locker room revealing himself as the answer right away. The answer is a complex equation that is solved with a huge number of variables.
What if I told you “the answer” would average 14 completions on 21 passes and about 187 yards per game as a first-time player? What if I told you he would average 1.2 touchdowns per game and 0.79 interceptions as well? When you build a great team with a consistent coaching message and a great defense, then you can plug in a big, strong quarterback from Miami University — the one that all our friends went to in Ohio — and that allows Ben Roethlisberger to become “the answer.”
I know it’s all hackneyed to bring up Roethlisberger to Browns fans, but I’m sick and tired of this charade. Bring me the heads of Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Jason Campbell, Brandon Weeden, Seneca Wallace, Brian Hoyer, Johnny Manziel, and maybe Brian Hoyer a second time! Never mind the discarded Chuds and Shurmurs in the corner!
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The Steelers didn’t lead with the quarterback. They led with other things until the quarterback was capable of leading them.
And Ben Roethlisberger wasn’t the guy that he has since become way back in 2004 when the Steelers won the Super Bowl. In his third season as a pro, Roethlisberger was bad. He threw 18 touchdowns and led the league with 23 interceptions. The Steelers went 8-8 after Roethlisberger’s motorcycle crash. But because the Steelers had been so well-established already when they gave Roethlisberger his first shot and limited his exposure, he’d already been a part of winning a Super Bowl.
The 2006 season was Bill Cowher’s last as head coach, but when the Steelers hired Mike Tomlin, Dick LeBeau remained as defensive coordinator. Bruce Arians was a new offensive coordinator, but again, he was elevated from within the organization from the wide receivers coaching spot.
Throughout it all, the Steelers appear like they found “the answer,” but it’s crazy to think they found it in the way the Indianapolis Colts found it twice with Manning and Andrew Luck. The Steelers helped make Ben Roethlisberger become who he’s become. They had an established team with established offensive and defensive philosophies that gave his teammates confidence. That confidence spread to Roethlisberger. Do you think he entered the league from Miami with that confidence and the ability to know where all his receivers and protections were going to be, or did he gain it with repetition and experience with guys who had tons of years of stability and experience under their belts? The Steelers didn’t lead with the quarterback. They led with other things until the quarterback was capable of leading them.
And that’s what I want the Browns to do: Stop chasing the quarterback dreams. Bring back Mike Pettine, Kyle Shanahan, Brian Hoyer, Johnny Manziel and pretty much all the rest of the starters on this team. Use those draft picks to improve areas that are capable of leading the team next year when they face a more difficult schedule. Don’t draft another quarterback who will be overwhelmed with inexperience. Bet on the defense and offensive line by investing your draft picks there. Bet on that defensive secondary by finding a middle linebacker or elite pass rusher who can help them intercept even more passes.
Would the Browns be able to take a guy like Brian Hoyer and make him “the answer” if they hadn’t wasted draft picks on Brandon Weeden and Johnny Manziel? Would Colt McCoy have become an acceptable placeholder if the Browns hadn’t hired the wrong coach in Pat Shurmur who had Colt McCoy throw the ball 40 times in his first game of the 2011 season? Remember that Shurmur also looked Colt McCoy up and down and decided to have him throw the ball 61 times in a game that season, outside, in Cleveland Browns Stadium against the Tennessee Titans. Sixty-one times. Colt McCoy wasn’t the answer to that question and that’s a coach who is simply setting a guy up to fail miserably.
What have the opportunity costs been of constantly changing people in the quarterback depth chart while not also building a decent running game? The point is that the Browns need to stop asking the question of whether Johnny Manziel or Brian Hoyer are the answer, and build the kind of team that makes them the answer. And if Hoyer and Manziel can’t do it, Ray Farmer needs to make sure he’s got the team that gives whoever comes next the absolute best opportunity to become that answer.
I’m tired of that question, and increasingly as I watch the Browns year-in and year-out, I think it’s the wrong one.
28 Comments
I agree with bringing back Pettine, Hoyer, Manziel but I really don’t want Shanahan back. He looked like a coaching genius when we were able to block for runs, but he’s out of ideas when the run isn’t working.
Also, this on Shan, what the hell was that designed run for Johnny? That’s the kind of deathwish play that go RGIII banged up.
So your fatigue with the Berea carousel and calliope makes you beat the nurture side of the QB nature v. nurture drum. But Craig, the Holy and Stable Steelers ditched plenty of QBs before drafting Ben quite high and anointing him prince. Yes, they were patient with Kordell Stewart and those types, and we should be too. But before the Browns decide on the QB to stick with they need to know who they are today and intend to be tomorrow. And have the deep discipline and belief to enforce that. It goes without saying that starts at the very top.
The crux of the prob hasn’t been impatience with the QBs. It’s been that the entire organization’s foundation has been ripped up and then placed in incompetent hands every few years since ’99. To mangle the old Chinese proverb, when the organization is ready the QB will appear.
Hear, hear!
That’s really it. Let’s get stability first, incremental improvement all around, a stud D and a stud OL and stability in terms of style and approach. Then we’ll see where Johnny is at and determine what direction to go from there – does he need weapons? Does he need to be replaced? You can’t judge the QB when you’re down early and when he can’t get a second to even hand the ball off.
This article is a bit of a red herring. Of course it’s important to continue improving the team at the same time we try to find the right quarterback, but the two aspects are yin and yang. We could have spent the 22nd pick on a backup center (LOL) and had an equally bad outcome. Or we could have drafted Carr or Bridgewater and had a better outcome. Or a worse one.
If we can solidify the offense in other ways next year, that could add a couple wins even with Hoyer at QB. On the other hand, if we have the opportunity to draft Mariota in exchange for our two first round picks, I’d certainly take him over value similar to last year’s haul of Gilbert/Manziel.
I’d say I’ve been one of the most outspoken about finding “the answer” at QB, though I actually think I’m on a pretty similar plane with Craig, but you hit the nail on the head. I think you do need to set up a better team for a guy like Roethlisberger to thrive, but, you’re exactly right about Roethlisberger. He was drafted 11th overall and was expected to be “the answer” almost right away. The team didn’t put much pressure on him (unlike Craig showed with Shurmer and McCoy) which helped him significantly.
I’m not suggesting that the Browns need to draft a QB with a high pick over and over until one somehow works out. I think we’ve seen enough evidence as to how that ends up. My argument about finding “the answer” is accepting that 30 year old Hoyer is not it, and working to find and develop and build around one. And, yes, that still requires a lot of building.
What did we have, 3 undrafted impact FA’s this year? Who’s to say Shaw won’t make it 4. I have always liked his chances much more than Rotten’s. With Hoyer gone next year let’s hope that shaw gets fully seasoned for his inevitable call from the bench. Maybe we even get a taste of him this week if Rotten keeps his skirt on.
Also, I think your second paragraph can be applied to another point Craig makes – “What have the opportunity costs been of constantly changing people in the quarterback depth chart while not also building a decent running game? ”
The Browns thought they addressed the running game by using a high pick, and trading up even, to get Richardson. The Browns didn’t ignore the need to build a decent running game, this wasn’t a loss of opportunity. Incompetent management had and used an opportunity to improve the running game and completely whiffed.
We don’t need a world beater, just a guy that can make first downs and not lose the game for us. I think we reached with the Weeden pick and the Manziel pick. If you are going to trade up to get a guy, he better pan out. If you are back and forth on drafting him, wait until your pick and see what happens. There were plenty of QBs on the board still (Bridgewater, Carr, Garoppolo, McCarron, Murray, Mettenberger)
Every QB we have had here in Cleveland has stunk. No amount of patience would have made a difference. Maybe a better team would have meant a better record, but if we were 8-8 with Colt or Kelley or Timmy or Thad then we’d still be a fan base pleading to find a real QB. The problem isn’t that we’ve tried to find an answer by investing first round picks. The problem is that we’ve used those first round picks on pretty bad players.
Bernie agrees.
I wonder if we even can bring Hoyer back at this point. If Cleveland, Houston, and a wildcard team who could be looking for a QB this offseason like SF or Washington all come calling with 2 year $10 million deals like the one Josh McCown signed this offseason (remember when Dalton money was being used as a comp, ha!) does Hoyer even come back here knowing that Johnny Football and a percentage of the fanbase will be breathing down his neck at the first sign of ineffectiveness?
We will see if Manziel can become a film junkie. Why is Peyton good? He is smart and studies film and can figure out what defenses are doing, and he knows what his options are before the ball is snapped.
I’m really starting to think there won’t be much of a market for Hoyer. Or rather, the teams that will be interested won’t be playoff teams offering him the opportunity to start. I once thought there would be a few, but not any longer. That said, I don’t think Hoyer stays here. It was always a shotgun marriage and I don’t think anything has happened to improve that relationship.
I agree, identifying the need for a running game on the banks of Lake Erie is competence. But the Richardson failure was incompetence at other steps: the owner handing the keys to a guy operating under the 1980s sensibility that RBs were found at the top of the draft, and then that guy, or Heckert, mistakenly assessing Richardson’s talent. Here’s what we need at the top: an owner with a vision of what he wants, who knows how to find the right people to implement that, who is able to strike the right balance between getting out of their way and some competent big-picture oversight, and the ability to write checks. Randy Lerner’s consistent problem was aching so badly for the Magic Man that would free him of an overarching vision or competent oversight that he fell for anything that seemed to correct the most recent failure. I don’t pretend to know if Haslam can provide what is needed. But a good org cannot exist unless he’s that guy.
How many playoff teams are generally looking for starting QBs anyways? I imagine a good chance at the starting role will be more important to him than the status of the team.
I can see him getting a few $8-13 million over 2 year (maybe with part of that as incentives) type offers like the contracts McCown, Orton, or even Chase Daniel signed over the past couple of offseasons.
Again though, the concept of “Dalton money” is dead and gone.
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To be fair, Dalton is guaranteed absolutely nothing after this season. Anytime the Bengals want to stop cutting him a check, they can do so and never owe him another cent. That’s a pretty big get for the Bengals.
Understood, but the remainder of Dalton’s $12M signing bonus will be dead money that will hit the cap if/when the Bengals part ways. I’m talking about a total Hoyer contract this offseason that will probably look like Dalton’s signing bonus alone.
I am a Steeler fan and I do not hate the Browns. I hate the Ravens your old team. I’d like to see you all continue to compete. I was excited for you this year and absolutely agree with you about following the Steeler way to team building and would take you a step further. Look to New England for the same type of plan. That is why both teams do so well. It is also why the Steelers an now emerging from only a 2 year rebuild to get back into the playoffs. Great advice! If only your team owners would read it.
hi Craig … i do agree with the stability / continuity thing … the steelers have had 3 head coaches since 1969 , then look at us us. however , what do all the winning franchises have ?? … a franchise QB. hoyer & manziel do not fit-the-bill.
ray farmer did an excellent job in the draft from the 2nd round on & then did well bringing in undrafted rookies crowell , shaw & gabriel … i think pettine pushed for justin gilbert & then haslam had them “pull the trigger” on manziel. farmer was NOT going to fix the whole mess in one draft.
he is set-up nicely for next year’s draft with 2 1st rounds picks … now don’t start showering me with hate replies , but i’ll just about bet farmer will trade both of those 1st round picks & another high pick in the 2016 draft to get marcus mariota … i think he loves this guy. farmer’s keester is on the line … if he thinks mariota is the guy , then he needs to go get him.
… and don’t let the owner pick a QB !!!!!
hoyer’s big free-agent payday took a massive hit after his poor play his last 4 starts.
This, this, this, 1000000x this.
I agree, Craig. Enough with the QB holy grail, lets build him a foundation that won’t crumble and make him look worse than he is. Hoyer & Manziel may be good enough to stand-in as we build.. and heck, they may prove to be good enough to hang on to. And if not, and we have to turn to the draft.. we’ll have an actual TEAM to give the new QB a flippin’ chance.
The smartest way to build a puzzle is to start with the edges and the Browns have very few of those. Instead, they have been tossing the QB center piece into a big mess of pieces that may or may not belong in the puzzle at all.
Dave, appreciate the effort in your comment. Please forgive me when I say that your comment is my new hatred of Steelers fans. I loved the hatred our fans had for each other, it was fun, and mainly amicable, but it was because our teams were more or less equals. I *loathe* the Steeler faux-empathy of today. If I die before I hear another Steelers fan tell me he “actually roots for the Browns” and how Baltimore is their rival, I’ll consider myself lucky. You may actually feel this way, and that’s fine, and I’m sure you were well intended, but it’s seriously irritating for us. More irritating than Bradshaw before a game. Again, apologies for curtness, but do your new friends a favor and save us your kind words. Hope internally that we return one day, and we can fuel our Sundays with the fun hate of yesteryear.
I agree with Eric. I stick to Browns fan boards. I am a Browns fan. We don’t need Steelers fans here. You have won 6 superbowls. The Browns are a worse franchise than the Cubs in baseball, at least the Cubs have always been in Chicago and did not cease to exist for 3 years, despite their 105 year championshipless streak. You cannot comprehend where we are and what we have been through. Talk to your fans on your site about your team. I don’t mean to troll, but the purpose of this website is for Browns fans waiting for next (championship year) which seams to elude us every year. You are not waiting for next year, your team is in the playoffs and you are not a Clelveland Browns fan…
The only problem with your suggestions is that the quarterbacks we have may hold back the team from progressing. Hoyer was cast off by other teams as not having the skills needed to be a starter in the league. Many experts have suggested that Manziel has never had the skills to be an NFL quarterback. So while I agree that constantly looking for Mr Franchise quarterback can be a bad strategy, continuing to develop a team with a far inferior quarterback can be just as detrimental. I still think we need to find a QB who the Browns think they can develop into the long term answer. This wasn’t a bad team this year, but the QB play was awful. I’m not suggesting we trade everything to get the number one pick and take a qb. But I do think we should still be looking every chance we get.
While I have no beef with Hoyer, if he was considered good, he would still be with either the Patriots or a started for one of the other teams who had him before the Browns. Using the logic posted by siome of the “Clowns” here, youcould say Hoyer blew it against the Panthers after the Browns took the lead (instead, he threw another INT).
In reality, I don’t blame ither Hoyer nor Manziel for losing that Panther’s game. I blame the entire team – the O-line sucked and the defense was nearly as bad – of course the Panther’s do have a good defense (at least compared to the Browns). I like Cam Newton, but he is more erratic than either Hoyer or the little that Manziel has played.
One other thing I noticed in that Panther’s game. I truly believe that the Browns O-line laid done while Manziel was in the game. I think they wanted Hoyer to continue and were going to teach a “brash youngster” a lesson by showing wwhat its like to get beat up by the opposing defense. Once Hoyer came into the game, there was a noticeable pickup in the play of the O-line, especially on that TD drive. However, the defense stunk – specially on that last Panther’s drive.
Another thing the “Clowns” complain is about Manziel’s size. He is taller than Brees (who is not 6 ft) and Wilson. Whether or not he is the answer remains to be seen. If he is sincere and truly intends to buckle down, he may turn out to be great, but you cannot judge from one game (where the Bengals had an axe to grind – and look what they did to Manning) and 5 series. Will the Browns get an opportunity to draft Mariota? I doubt it. And if they do, any guarantee that he will be anymore successful? After all, other than height, he plays a similar style at Oregon as Manziel did at Texas A&M (which, BTW, is an SEC school and was when Manziel played and beat Alabama his first year).