LeBron James Comes Home — WFNY’s Top 10 Cleveland Sports Stories of 2014: No. 1
December 30, 2014Happy Birthday, And Boo – Hawks vs Cavaliers: Behind the Box Score
December 31, 2014The Cleveland Browns are so up front and honest when talking about players right now, that there never seem to be huge shocking moments. In the past, I have no doubt that guys like Pat Shurmur and Mike Holmgren would have shrugged off every single question about Johnny Manziel and then when the season ended and everyone got Holmgren in front of a live microphone, they would have blasted away and it would have been explosive. Here, you’ve got a Browns organization where Mike Pettine, Ray Farmer and even owner Jimmy Haslam – albeit more generically – have spoken in unison on the topic of culture and behavioral issues. So when Ray Farmer gave his end-of-season press conference it was just a variation on a well-established theme of continual honesty by the organization. Still, the Johnny Manziel questions dominated the Ray Farmer media meet-up.
On QB Johnny Manziel talking a good game again yesterday to the media saying he wants to be held accountable and he wants to change his behavior and if he believes Manziel:
“I would tell you that the words don’t mean anything. I’m not a big word guy. It’s all about action. I think that’s really where we’re at in time, and I think that’s for everybody. I think that’s what all of our players and our coaches and our staff, everybody with this organization want to see. That’s what our fans want to see. It’s about action.”
On if he thinks Manziel can still develop into an elite quarterback:
“I do think he can develop into a solid starter in this league, yes. I think that the sample size that’s available is, like you said, small. I’d say to that end, we all have got to be patient. I think there’s an opportunity for the guy to make changes. It’s up to him if he’s going to make those changes, but I think the talent is in his body to accomplish that.”
On if he expected Manziel’s off-the-field actions when he drafted him:
“I would say there’s a notation and there’s an idea of what Johnny is. Some of it’s true. Some of it’s not true. There are pieces that everybody comes to understand because that’s what gets reported. There are pieces that people don’t get to understand because that’s never reporter. I’ll tell you that there’s good and bad, and sometimes we hang our hats on the bad a little too much. There’s good in there, and there are things he can hang his hat on to move forward with.”
On the good things about Manziel that others don’t see:
“I do think that he cares. I do know he’s competitive. At the end of the day, I’ll be frank and candid and say that it’s obvious but he does need to grow up some, and that maturity issue’s there. Beyond that, I do think that there are redeemable qualities that can help him improve himself over time.”
On what Manziel showed him as a player to make him think that he could be a starter:
“The same things he showed me in college. I think he can be consistently accurate with the football. I do think he has mobility to escape the pocket, and I do think that his desire and his competitiveness give him an edge that a lot of players don’t have.”
On saying that Manziel can be a solid starter and if that’s good enough:
“Yes.”
On if he needs Manziel to be an elite starter:
“I’d ask I don’t know how many elite starters exist. In my mind, I would say there are no more than four or five of them in the league at any one point in time. I would say that if that’s the case then the vast majority of the league plays with guys that are not elite starters. That classification, in my mind, is a very small class when we use the word ‘elite.’”
It might just be semantics, but it’s good to see Ray Farmer has a specific delineation about elite quarterbacks and his goals for finding the next Cleveland Browns quarterback. It seems like much of the Browns’ history since 1999 has been looking for that savior of an elite quarterback who could come in and transcend the game of football. Meanwhile, as much criticism as there is in the world for the Bengals over the years, they’ve maintained their staff and committed to a guy who has been just good enough, while certainly not elite. Even over in Baltimore, Joe Flacco doesn’t consistently play like one of the game’s true elite quarterbacks, but if they manage their roster and play well around him, he has spurts where he looks like he’s as good as anyone.
This was my favorite quote by Farmer with regard to quarterbacks.
On if the Browns are looking to develop Manziel into their starting quarterback or they don’t know if they can count on him and have to find other people who can start next season:
“I would tell you that we’re constantly in search for guys that we think improve our roster. I would say all of the above. He’ll be given every opportunity to contribute and compete, and he’ll also have to compete against guys that could be draft choices. They could be free agent selections. They could be any number of stones that we overturn to try to find the right guy to bring in here to help improve our roster.”
When I was chatting with Dave Sterling on the podcast today, we got to talking about Jay Cutler and he asked me what I thought about it. When Ray Farmer says, the Browns are constantly in search for guys that they think can improve their roster, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Jay Cutler hasn’t worked out for the Bears as they would have hoped. Then again, the team also failed out so badly that they just fired their coach and GM as well. If Ray Farmer and the Browns found it in their best interest to bring in Jay Cutler, I’d expect them to build for Jay Cutler. Make sure he can hand the ball off on half his plays or more. Make sure the defense can keep the game in check if he happens to throw an interception here or there. Invest in tight ends, or develop a lockdown screen-pass game that makes Jay Cutler’s chances of success – and the Browns’ as well – as high as humanly possible.
In my mind, Jay Cutler is something of a known quantity that the Browns can actually work with. Same with Brian Hoyer to a lesser degree. Johnny Manziel exits his first NFL year as the ultimate unknown quantity. That doesn’t mean the Browns need to rush to “see what they have in” Manziel, necessarily. And it’s good to see Ray Farmer isn’t rushing to pin the Browns’ hopes to such an unknown guy as Manziel is after his first season, while also not giving up hope on him.
But Farmer doesn’t sound like he’s going to be that patient to wait around for Manziel to “get it” either.
On Manziel being on South Beach, if Manziel has been cleared to leave and his reaction to videos on Manziel partying:
“Pics may be authentic. Everybody was allowed to leave here yesterday. They’ll be back next week. Everybody was given the first several days to detox from the season, and people will be back in town starting Monday. Assuming he is in South Beach and he’s down there, that’s his right to have right now, and he’ll be back assuming that that’s what happens.”
Assuming that that’s what happens… That’s some tough sounding talk from Ray Farmer, and even if it is just talk, it’s right in line with what Mike Pettine and Jimmy Haslam have said. Even more than the players or the hot start the Browns had this season, that’s what gives me the most hope for the future.
32 Comments
Ray, Mike, this entitled frat bro WILL bring you down, guaranteed.
Just ask yourself…are you willing to stake your jobs on him?
I’m surprised you seem to be giving Farmer a bit more of a pass than I would have expected. He does represent an honesty compared to his recent predecessors but his entire presentation today seemed much less coherent, direct and forthright compared to Pettine.
To wit:
“I think there’s an opportunity for the guy to make changes. It’s up to him if he’s going to make those changes…”
It’s astonishing that this sentence is being used on the planned face-of-the-franchise following his excruciatingly subpar rookie season on and off the field. Pettine showed a more significant (honest?) level of obvious frustration with his rookie signal caller.
“There’s good in there, and there are things he can hang his hat on to move forward with.”
Yet the bad is what keeps coming up and getting reported, again and again. This has to be frustrating for you and the entire organization. Be honest and let us, and more importantly the player who is the launching point for all this negative off-field attention, know you’re frustrated and that frustration has migrated from internal to public because it has become such an unavoidable spectacle.
“Beyond that, I do think that there are redeemable qualities that can help him improve himself over time.”
Here, again, this is astonishing. Your first round selection to assume the (arguably) most important position in all of sports has enough redeemable qualities in the face of the clusterf*ck he has made of his rookie season is enough that we won’t throw in the towel after one season. If you’re being honest a growing frustration as you speak would seem appropriate.
“On saying that Manziel can be a solid starter and if that’s good enough:
‘Yes.’ ”
C’mon, he wasn’t asked if he could be a solid starter. He was asked if he could be elite. Answering that he can be a solid starter is a FAR CRY from elite.
“I would say that if that’s the case then the vast majority of the league plays with guys that are not elite starters.”
Follow up I would have liked to have heard: Do you honestly feel that the solid Johnny has shown to date is good enough to win a Superbowl?
“I would tell you that we’re constantly in search for guys that we think improve our roster.”
Follow up I would liked to have heard: Honestly, did the selection of Johnny improve your roster?
I like Ray and the organization as it stands but I also recognize obfuscation when it “ums” and “ahs” it way through a press conference.
Hi Craig,
I am a new listener in Washington DC. I really enjoy your podcasts a lot and Dave Sterling is my favorite of your contributors. He is funny and likable, with the additional advantage of being far less self-important and irritating than some of your other guests. Keep it up Dimoco! Speaking of contributing to success by both maximizing what one does well and by minimizing what one does badly, I have a question/thought for you about Johnny Manziel:
I think Manziel is a guy that experiences some overpowering habit/need of being the center of every play. If he could hike himself the ball, flicker his own flea, catch his own passes, and bounce off his own block into the endzone, he would! By comparison, Connor Shaw may not be a great QB, but on Sunday he had success when he put his energy into what he alone needed to do: pass it quick, scramble if needed, run sparingly. The QB’s part of the play should be as short as possible. You get rid of the ball and let the runners and catchers do all the heavy lifting.
I’m not sure Manziel really gets that. To me, he’s panicked, flustered every snap and consequently he’s overworked for everyone of his tiny gains. Even for a guy of his modest size.
Please discuss at your next casting of the pod.
Craig. It is good that Ray Farmer stated that he will not hesitate to improve the roster, including the QB position. But the only reason he’s saying that is because our QB position is obviously unresolved. If Johnny Manziel showed any kind of competence under center or if he played like many of us thought he would then Ray wouldn’t have to say that. The fact is that he had two first-round picks and both of them woefully underperformed. So he couldn’t sit up on his podium and dispute what everybody saw with their own eyes in regards to Justin Gilbert and Johnny Manziel. If anything, saying that they won’t hesitate to draft another QB in next years draft inspires a lack of confidence considering they just drafted one in the 1st round last year. I like Farmer and I’m not saying he can’t get the two 1st-round picks we have next year right, but busting on two first rounders will set any organization back, especially one as god-awful as The Browns.
Not at all. They are smart men. Ray is taking the fall for the decision on Manziel (covering for ol Jimmy), but no way he’s sold on him. He’s doing the right thing now, not to publicly beat up Johnny any more (deflating his value). The boy got his public lashing…now you say what a great player he can be and try to flip his a&# to some desperate team for whatever you can get in return.
I have no doubt that Johnny will live up to his statement, “I’m not going to change who I am for anybody… am I going to live in a shell or am I jut going to hide from everybody and not do anything? I don’t think that’s the way I should live my life and I’m not going to do it.”
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–KYIkWDEi–/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/ow1dksl4nt3l6g6ldkde.jpg
I feel like you are reading way too much between the lines.
Farmer is clearly stating that Manziel’s behavior and ceiling are squarely on Manziel.
OK. I felt like he was defending him and his pick(s) way too much. Agree to disagree.
I’m with you, Sam. Farmer seemed a little bit slippery and not forthright, with us or with himself.
Fair enough, I didn’t hear the entire presser so I can only base my opinion on the excerpts Craig posted above.
If I read between the lines I see Farmer washing his hands of Manziel and saying he is done with the guy, if Manziel wants to be good then he needs to grow up and act like a professional. If Manziel fails it is because Manziel wasn’t willing to be a man.
We’ve all been here. Our boss makes an idiotic decision, and we’re responsible for dealing with it.
As much as you want to throw him under the bus, you can’t.
I do not envy Ray, here.
The tricky part for Ray is, how to wash his hands of Manziel, without implicating Jimmy as the one who is responsible for making the terrible decision to draft Mr. Football.
Save space for me on this lifeboat as well. Farmer danced this whole conference.
He states that this is the “ultimate team game” but has no problem drafting the “ultimate self promoter” and non-team guy Johnny Manziel.
He states that this league is a scoring league but then places no value on Wide Receivers and that a “solid QB” is good enough. WHAT?
Only thing I give him credit for was jumping on the Manziel grenade for Jimmy. I don’t care how many times he lets the “LET THE WHOLE WORLD KNOW” statement fly… Jimmy made that pick.
I agree, he is definitely on a slippery slope. Although there’s a good deal of debate about whether Haslam did or did not get involved with the selection it’s really hard to reconcile Farmer and Pettine’s persona with the pick. However, I still think Farmer (and Pettine) had to have Manziel rated highly enough and felt strongly enough about his potential to go along with Haslam. If they felt he was going to be the catastrophe he’s shown himself to be thus far I have to believe one or both would have taken a stronger stand against the pick regardless of owner/employee dynamics. This is where I wish Farmer was showing a stronger, more honest sense of frustration (as I perceive Pettine to be doing) with how the situation has actually unfolded. As emphatic as he’s been that Haslam wasn’t involved with the pick it appears he’s doing more to cover his own faulty analysis rather than helping Haslam save face.
I understand your point about Farmer’s subtlety expressed between the lines. My original response was directed more at Craig’s praise of Farmer’s honesty which I found to be less forthcoming than I had hoped or expected.
“If they felt he was going to be the catastrophe he’s shown himself to be
thus far I have to believe one or both would have taken a stronger
stand against the pick”
A rookie GM/Coach let the boss make this pick.
A savvy rookie GM/Coach still lets the boss make the pick just to show him how wrong he was and then use that leverage later to get what he knows is right later.
The problem being of course that we are now in the off season.
As low as you think Manziel’s value is right now, he has all the time in the world to drive it down even further over the next several months.
Never noticed the personal butler holding the swan in place for him so WIDDLE JOHNNY BEAR DUZNT GET HIMSELF ALL WETTY WET in the pic before.
“A rookie GM/Coach let the boss make this pick.”
This is the overriding perspective expressed by most fans. I still feel Farmer/Pettine had to have a strong enough feeling based on their scouting about Manziel’s potential to go along with Haslam. If they felt a first round pick had anything close to the likelihood to blow up the way this one has thus far and weren’t willing to stand up to an owner regardless of their rookie status I have some deep concerns about them going forward.
I totally agree with your point about allowing an owner to make the pick to use as leverage in future similar situations but for ANY position other than a first round, future face of the franchise pick. The implications of a miss at this round/position are just too grave to allow without taking a stance and defending it. If Haslam didn’t want football people to make football decisions especially when it comes to the most important franchise defining position on the team better they find out now and move along.
Don’t mean to sound all pollyanna but somebody on this staff better have some cojones or this ride of suckitude we’ve all been on for so long is far from ending.
JFF’s first off-season under the microscope.
Fame, pockets full of money…the possibilities are endless.
Party at Bieber’s crib, bros!!!
“Farmer/Pettine had to have a strong enough feeling based on their scouting about Manziel’s potential to go along with Haslam.”
I’m sure Farmer had Manziel somewhere on his board, maybe even as high as 2nd or 3rd QB.
I’m also sure that Pettine, being a defensive minded 5th choice for head coach kept his mouth shut and went along for the ride.
God, I hope I haven’t so completely misread both Farmer and Pettine…
Manziel shown here on the first day of the off season with his full attention on rehabilitating his SEASON ENDING HAMSTRING INJURY.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6IqdtoIIAAzFh8.jpg:large
Well I guess I can put it like this…what makes you feel worse;
Farmer has no cojones and let Jimmy make the pick OR Farmer actually had Manziel higher on his board than Teddy?
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12075921/why-teddy-bridgewater-deserves-win-offensive-rookie-year-nfl
My only hope is that he will party himself off the team, and in the process make himself look like a bigger jackass than us.
Totally agree…which is what worries the hell out of me about Gordon. I’d say there’s about an 89.6% chance he gets traded, yet a 76.3% he reaches for BIlly Bong Thornton prior to the draft and gets hits with another suspension.
Word on the street is that Gordon prefers Wesley Pipes.
Manziel has a small sample size, and his play package should be a little different than the other QBS we have. Not fair to judge him on the few snaps he has had so far. I am going to try to stay positive through this process, and see what happens. We have two choices, complain about things, or just see what happens. Not saying we have to like it, but lets just see how this thing plays out and hopefully the OC will not be calling QB sweeps next season.
“I feel like you are reading way too much between the lines.”
This is the annual rite of the Cleveland Browns postmortem. This whole conversation is a bunch of reading between lines – about Jimmy Haslam’s possible, no probable, no obvious, (or is it?) role in drafting someone, about Ray Farmer’s actual opinion (I know what he SAID, but he possibly, no probably, no obviously meant something else (or did he?)) about someone, about Johnny Manziel’s smiles and laughs and whether those smiles and laughs are appropriate in a season of smiling and laughing (guy really should be rehabbing that damn hamstring 25 hours every day!!!!111!!!!11), and about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and some more blah, blah, bla-blah.
This will be the conversation until April (or is it May again this year)? This is also the worst time of the year for Cleveland sports, reason, sanity, etc.
Hallelujah, holy $#!t, where’s the Tylenol?
Is it too early to start drinking?
Another round of lose/lose for Browns fans. Argh.
I have never understood this obsession among fans that GMs or CEOs publicly admit and confess to their mistakes. Nor do I understand the complaining that business people don’t always deliver public verdicts on employee guilt and innocence.
First, it’s about protecting your assets. Why would Farmer label his top picks were busts if he hopes to have them play better next year or be tradable at some point?
Second, Are you Opiners for Truth that young and naive? sometimes your boss has to play neutral and non-committal PR man. That’s life in the real world, kids. Even so, I watched the entire press conference and Ray Farmer could not have been more clear: We are about winning, we will rewards winners, only winners keep their jobs.
Third, Yeah, high picks are often busts! Predicting success in the NFL draft is really, really hard. Sports writers are almost always wrong. They can barely pick the draft order, let alone who might actually succeed in the NFL. All teams have their share of terrible draft picks, especially at QB. Ray had some winners, and some losers, and some incompletes. We’ll only know if Jimmy keeps his team around for more than 1 year.
I thought a lot of the posts in this thread were pretty right on, then the right onness of this post sort of blew me away