Another January in Berea: While We’re Waiting…
January 4, 2016Match ‘Em Up: 5 Fired Browns Coaches, 5 Front Office Quotes
January 4, 2016The Cleveland Browns season has come to a merciful close. So, this email conversation between Michael Bode and Craig Lyndall changes recent course by discussing the Cleveland Indians. With Spring Training looming (no really, one month away), we revisit a “hot topic” that has been a bit glossed over in Mark Shapiro leaving the Indians to take the same head of baseball operations job with the Toronto Blue Jays. Does his leaving signify anything other than a change of scenery?
Other Indians conversations:
Related: Should the Indians go all-in in 2016?
Craig: I’ve been thinking a lot about Mark Shapiro lately. Despite my disappointment with the Indians at points during his tenure and his continued celebration of how short his rebuilds were in Cleveland, I do acknowledge that he’s a smart guy with a good pedigree in the game. I also spent enough time talking to people about process and analytics and other ideals to know that you shouldn’t obsess on outcomes as much as process and things you can control. Even as I don’t think the Indians have done a great job over the past decade or so, I do recognize that Mark Shapiro might be a very good executive who just couldn’t get all the pieces to fit in the right order consistently enough with the Dolan ownership and those constraints.
While Toronto fans nervously await the outcome, I’m also very nervous because what if Mark Shapiro doesn’t fail? What if he thrives in an environment with more resources? My biggest fear is what it says about the Indians and the point of being a fan of the team knowing that the biggest constraint to having a good team is not the right executive but the ownership group that can’t afford to commit more resources.
Michael: There might not be a better person in MLB at hiring incredible people throughout an organization than Mark Shapiro. If the Indians miss anything with him moving on, then I expect that ability will be at the top of the list. I hope Chris Antonetti is as adept at finding and developing the next Ross Atkins, Neil Huntington, Paul DePosta, Josh Byrnes, et cetera.
Shapiro was(is) also great at developing an organizational path and ensuring all moving parts are going down said path. For instance, when he switched gears on the development programs, he went full-bore rebuild on that side by bringing in Carter Hawkins and Eric Binder, while moving Ross Atkins to the Development Director role and Brad Grant into the Amateur Scouting role (i.e. displacing John Mirabelli for the Rule IV draft). There were no half-measures or waffling as we constantly see with the Browns. He saw where he wanted to go, got everyone on board, and away we went.
Now, I don’t know if he just doesn’t care what fans/media think or if he is particularly tone deaf, but his public relations could sure use some work. Maybe the same character traits that give him the self-assurance to lead are the same ones that make his statements to the press come off as callous and without regard for how they might be taken.
But, I’m not worried about him succeeding in Toronto. I truly wish him the best unless the Blue Jays stand in the path of the Indians. I feel for the fans in Toronto that have a poor professional sporting history too. They have a bit more resources (only MLB team of Canada makes them a bigger market than they would otherwise be), but they also have Boston and New York in their division. So, they are battling the truly money giants just to gain the right of entry to October.
Also, is your problem really with the Dolans or the inherent economic structure of MLB? In other words, does it really matter who the owner is?
Craig: It always matters who the owner is. This isn’t to trash the Dolan family which truly is a great asset to the community. It’s just that idle hand-wringing that goes along with wondering if your team can ever compete on the biggest stages ever again. I know that there are enough moving pieces that Shapiro succeeding or failing in Toronto doesn’t really cast much of a shadow over Cleveland. I know in my head that any number of people could succeed in Cleveland by making great trades, drafting and developing players. It’s just always concerning that even beyond the actual money that the Dolans spend, they also have a very conservative style beyond the simple outlays of cash.
Hopefully this is just panicky drivel, but that’s kind of what I’m known for at this point. We all want our teams to do so well and we have so little control over anything and everything. Nowhere is that more true than with the Indians in a league like MLB. And yes, MLB has major issues, but there’s always a way to kick down the door. The worry is that some combination of variables existing within the Indians’ infrastructure is a variable that puts a ceiling on the team.
Michael: My argument is it has much less to do about the actual owners and more to do about the actual economic structure. As I laid out in a recent post, the Angels make $150mil/year in local television revenue. The Dodgers make $334mil/year. Those teams have their entire payroll, revenue sharing, and luxury tax all paid for with profits to spare before they even start touching their box office receipts, concessions, merchandise, et cetera. The Indians $40mil/year local TV deal doesn’t even cover half of their payroll.
So, if you want any hope at balance, then you have to hope for a major lockout and/or strike when the MLB CBA comes up for extension. Otherwise, the Indians FO just has to figure out how to deal with it. And, I actually think they have been dealing with it and learning rather well. They are ahead of the game on a few fronts. Sadly, they have to be ahead to have any chance and have to keep pushing ahead (as the rich teams learn their tricks and use them too).
But, yeah, tons of things have to go the Indians way to win a championship. Probably more than in any other sport, and it is a long-play, which can be frustrating. The good news is the Indians seem primed to have a chance at kicking down the door these next few years. The bad news is if they don’t, then it’ll likely take awhile to reboot for another chance.
Alright, we have had our say, tell us where we have it wrong (or correct) in the comments.
Other Browns Conversations:
Related: Should the Browns fire Mike Pettine?
Related: Should the Browns fire Ray Farmer?
Related: Should the Browns start Johnny Manziel?
Related: Can the Browns be fixed over the bye week?
Related: On the outlook for optimism in a tough Browns season
18 Comments
I guess with the Browns perpetual revolving door weighing heavily on my mind my questions regarding this conversation are:
1) How quickly can Shapiro turn the Jays organization into the Indians? It seems they invested a ton into short-term, win-now guys and their farm system is reportedly in shambles as a result.
2) How long does ownership/fanbase give Shapiro to implement his system?
3) Will fielding a roster of analytics-friendly guys who win, but don’t thrill, have an impact on the fanbase size? The Indians have been knocking on the post-season door for a decade but the players we field don’t draw crowds. You could argue we were spoiled in the 90s and haven’t come down off those expectations but the more I ponder Bode’s responses to my hatred of Santana the more I wonder if mundane SABR-friendly players just don’t resonate with your more run-of-the-mill fans.
the more I ponder Bode’s responses to my hatred of Santana
I’m wearing you down, my friend 🙂
Incorrect! I just started wondering why our opinions of him were so radically different and it occurred to me that he is awful to watch. He steps up to the plate and I inwardly groan, “great, another walk to set up a double play, or a strike out looking.” Whereas I feel you see him step up and say, “great another walk to set up a RISP!”
The more I think about I feel like we are both right. But while you see him racking up OBP, I see another stranded RISP.
For example a team with a perfect walk-rate would be an unstoppable killing machine in terms of wins, but damn those games would be boring as all shite to watch.
I do though see his real value is in having 60 extra base hits along with a high OBP (and I count stolen bases as an extra base hit). But yeah, it’s not exactly exciting watching him work pitchers no matter how effective it can be.
Too soon Bode not on this yet another Monday mourning (get it? was good right?) for Cleveland Browns!!!!!
(and I count stolen bases as an extra base hit).
see how that works Hopwin you arbitrarily decide your own statistical measures in order to better support your own hypothesis. Welcome to the wonderful world of modern day baseball!!!!
If you walk or single and steal second base, then how is it much different than hitting a double?
Also, what statistic wasn’t arbitrarily made up at some point?
(Sandler’s Ridiculous Six movie is terrible…but the Doubleday scene of creating rules of baseball was excellent)
I keep waiting for Shapiro to “poach” John Mirabelli from the Tribe. Its the least he could do after subjecting Indians fans to a decade of first rounders like Jeremy Sowers, Trevor Crowe, and David Huff.
LoL it’s called a double for a reason. So if a guy walks then steals second and third that’s same thing as a triple right?
As for this point I have just one thing to say: BLAH!
(Haven’t seen it is it any good? Doubleday is rolling over in his grave!)
Yes, it is basically the same as a triple; why is it different?
(just find the Doubleday scene on youtube – the rest is garbage)
I still wonder if it was the drafting or the development. I side with the development portion of the argument though and WFNY will have an exclusive look into how it changed with the Indians tomorrow.
Oy vey!
(okay)
Hence why I said we are both right. He is terrible to watch but has statistical value. Since baseball is intended to be entertainment and he is not, you have sided with me that he is in fact, terrible.
It’s not baseball season it’s another Browns season moratorium time well until tonight at least when Cleveland’s only real hope for a title tips off at 7 PM ET from Quickens Loan Arena!!!
Only one month until pitchers and catchers report!
Hehe…not exciting, but incredibly entertaining (to me). Let’s find a middle ground though and convince him to do some epic bat flips after walks (I would love it).
: )
Every time he walks:
http://media.tumblr.com/0809497470ae6a3238196da6b1f826cb/tumblr_inline_mkkdsonPq91qz4rgp.gif
You are one sick puppy! 😉