While We’re Waiting… Cliff Lee Trade Thoughts
Written By: Scott | Category: Best of the Web, Cleveland Indians | Comments: 29While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email in the sidebar.
“[Phillies GM Reuben] Amaro denied this deal was more about October than the final two months of the regular season. [...] What can’t be measured is the psychological boost the Phillies got today. From a team that won the World Series, they have subtracted Pat Burrell and added Raul Ibanez and [Cliff] Lee. Amaro reportedly got an ovation from his team when he entered the clubhouse after the trade was finalized.” [Ed Price/MLB FanHouse]
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“Look, is Philly’s rotation potentially a little lefty heavy with Lee, Cole Hamels, Jamie Moyer and J.A. Happ? Yes, though righties Joe Blanton and Pedro Martinez can help remedy that problem in the playoffs, where pitching depth is assuredly never a curse. Is Lee just as good as Halladay? Not quite, though the slight difference is worth it when you consider it means that the Phillies have kept control of Happ and high-value prospects like Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Dominic Brown.” [Kevin Kaduk/Big League Stew]
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“So while the deal has been considered a win for both sides, I don’t think the story ends there. While it looks like the Indians got some useful prospects, they could have and should have done a lot better. What needs to be looked at is the prospects the Indians didn’t get.” [Dan Novick/Hardball Times]
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“The Phillies got Lee without giving up the three players the Blue Jays had demanded in a deal for Halladay: Phillies left-hander J.A. Happ, Double-A Reading right-hander Kyle Drabek and Single-A Clearwater outfielder Dominic Brown. Happ is a legitimate National League Rookie of the Year candidate and Drabek and Brown are the organization’s top pitching and player prospects, respectively. The Phillies also didn’t give up outfielder Michael Taylor, who Baseball America considers a Top 25 prospect.” [Todd Zolecki/Phillies.com]
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“This will be remembered as the Indians trip where only the club’s luggage made it home. In the span of this nine-game, nine-day swing through Toronto, Seattle and Anaheim, Calif., the Indians traded four players off their big-league roster.” [Paul Hoynes/Plain Dealer]
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“And after you finished high-fiving your pals when the deal for Indians lefthander Cliff Lee went down with startling swiftness – physicals pending – you might have thought to ask: “By the way, what did he cost us?”
The answer would have been your second shock of the day.
Nobody who will be missed . . . ” [Bill Conlin/Philly.com]
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“In baseball, teams generally turn over gradually through attrition, free agency, and trade, so there’s often no clear line of demarcation between eras of a franchise, but this week seems as definitive a boundary as the 2002 Bartolo Colon trade was. In a neat bit of coincidence, Cliff Lee was involved in both the beginning and end of that era. In 2002, Cliff was one of the three then unknown prospects received for who was then one of the best pitchers in baseball. It’s taken eight years and a few detours, but now Cliff Lee is one of the elite pitchers in the game, and taking his place are four unknowns that will hopefully be part of the next good Indians team.” [Ryan/Lets Go Tribe]
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“Wait… so the Phillies get last year’s AL Cy Young winner and they didn’t have to give up J.A. Happ, Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown, OR Michael Taylor?
HALLELUJAH!
Like most people who root for the Phillies, I really had my heart set on Roy Halladay, that awful beard of his and ALL of those complete games, but Ruben Amaro made one hell of a deal here. Kudos, Mr. Amaro.” [Meech/The Fightins]
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“Lee Leaves Languished Losers, Largens Lefty Load in ‘Ladelphia” [Walkoff Walk]
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“Just throwing this out there, but I wonder what this trade, and the overall decision to look more toward 2011 than 2010, means for Eric Wedge. If anything, I would think it improves his chances of remaining with this club next year. For one, the Indians are clearly in player development mode for the next 14 months, and that eases the emphasis on poor April starts and the struggle to perform under weighty expectations — the biggest knocks on Wedge.” [CastroTurf]
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“But it becomes harder and harder to care about how these trades pan out as it becomes easier and easier to be sure that any real star developed by the Tribe will be shipped out of town on or near a contract year.” [Cleveland Frowns]
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“This season is lost. It has been lost. At least they are admitting their failures and blowing it up to get younger, cheaper, and maybe better. Why pay the likes of Ryan Garko and Kelly Shoppach? Pointless. Get younger, swallow your pride, and also add some fresh blood. 2007 turned out to be a bit fraudulent.. fine.. good.. ok. Move on.” [King Diesel/Bench Ben Francisco]
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(image courtesy of The 700 Level)
Author: Scott
Scott is a co-founder/editor of Waiting For Next Year who resides in Cleveland, Ohio. Feel free to follow him on Twitter or email him at scott@waitingfornextyear.com.Scott has written 1701 articles for Waiting for Next Year.
Dear Indians,
I will not attend another game managed by Eric Wedge. I will however, attend the first game after his firing, and subsequently many more after that.
Sincerely,
Me
Read the Bill Conlin piece…..he’s Peter Gammons of Philly.
Says Carrasco would probably have been left off of Philly’s 40 man roster at season’s end. Said Marson and Donald’s “ceiling” (Shapetti’s pet term) at best is backups, and Knapp is at least 3/4 years from any expectations at all. Closed the article by laughing at the literal highway robbery Philly was on the receiving end of.
Wake up people…….quit listening to Shapiro’s crap-he’s literally lying in front of the microphone. He’s telling you now what he told you in 2002 (”we’re gonna take a very short step now to compete at a championship level year over year). Do you still believe he’s smarter than everyone else? Can’t you see that the landlord is cashing his chips at your expense?
Just hope he doesn’t pull a Modell on his way out.
The blame game is a tough one with this team. Dolans for being cheap – and already saying that they’re not spending any money this offseason? Shapiro for gambling and missing big time with Hafner’s huge deal, allowing him not to bring in enough quality? Wedge’s lineups and in-game moves, espeically with the bullpen?
A huge vortex of misery if you ask me…
Chris M-Shapiro has no intention of firing Wedge, he said so last night. Wedge is a problem, but hardly THE issue.
“Read the Bill Conlin piece…..he’s Peter Gammons of Philly.”
He also had glowing remarks about Ben Francisco, so I guess it may be in the eye of the beholder…
Cmon Scott, seriously-if you want to be that defensive…be my guest.
Go ahead, discount his article if you want……..buy some tickets too.
I don’t want to blame Wedge completely for the state of the team, but… he and his buddies (Willis and Shelton) had their chance. If they’re rebuilding, I think they should think about fixing that situation, too. With who? Hey, I’m just stirring the pot!
Link from the Frowns article:
http://sheahey.blogspot.com/2009/07/competitive-imbalance.html
Interestingly, you could argue the Indians exceeded expectations. Only 6 teams had a higher average win total over the last 10 seasons (although we’re more middle of the pack for playoff appearances).
Still, if we were able to simply keep the talent that is on our roster we’d probably be top 5 or better.
Not being defensive – just looking at both sides of the argument. I’m not one of those people throwing their hands up and screaming “I’m done.” Frustrated? Yes. But understanding? Of course.
The seller always looks like they got the worse end of the deal in these situations. I’m just holding out hope that these guys pan out some day. Philips was the main chip in the Colon deal, and we ended up with two solid players on the other end. No guarantee that that’ll happen again, but there’s nothing that I can do about it to make a difference.
Isis, I get that, really. I’m just so sick of his mentality, lineup shuffling, and most of all, his recycled b.s. He ran Phillips out of town, there is absolutely zero continuity or stability to his managerial style, and this is most certainly to the team’s detriment. He’s the Sowers equivalent of a manager – he’d probably be a good AAA manager, but as for managing at the major league level, the guy is a joke. There is no way this guy would have a job managing any other team at the MLB level.
So after a night to sleep on it, I’ve come to the conclusion that, in a vacuum, I am OK with this trade and I understand why it was made.
The Indians got two position players who are nearly (if not already) major-league ready but have low-ish ceilings.
They also got two pitchers who for one reason of another are by no means a lock to succeed in the majors (Carrasco’s slumped a bit this year in AAA, Knapp carries with him all the uncertainty that any 19 year-old A-ball pitcher does) but both of them have all the talent in the world and could very well be better than the guys the Indians *didn’t* get…with the proper coaching/development.
And THAT’S where I start to get worried.
The Tribe’s player development system has failed numerous times to develop, from start to finish, a quality major league baseball player. Many of the young guys who have had at least tastes of success over the past few years (Cabrera, Choo, Shoppach, for example) were all “developed” primarily in other minor-league systems. The player development program and major league coaching staff for this team has failed for years now to either develop a quality home-grown product (I’m looking at you, Sowers) or failed to give struggling young players the proper coaching at a major league level to help them make adjustments (think Franky-G, Phillips, Marte).
Ultimately I don’t think the true “winner” of this trade will be decided until we all see what Knapp can do because, quite frankly, he’s the key to this trade. And that’s where I start to fret that the Tribe won’t win this one, because when was the last time you saw the Indians turn someone from A-ball stud into major-league gold?
Shapiro may no longer be considered “executive of the year,” but be careful before grabbing the tar and feathers. What other GM would be a clear upgrade, and is he available? Let’s say a “genius” like Billy Beane was available. Tell me how many world series appearances the A’s have made, or even how many playoff series they have won (or appeared in). The Dolans’ money is short, and the GM operates on a razor’s edge when it comes to margin of error. Yep, Shapiro’s drafting is horrible, his loyalty to Wedgie seems misplaced. But the next GM will have his own flaws. Do you trust the Dolans to pick the right guy to replace Shapiro? Or is it better to hope that Shapiro is himself still a work in progress, and is still young enough and smart enough to detect his own flaws and change his system? Just saying.
The Castroterf article terrifies me, and the Wedge thought it what occurred to me last night. By Shapiro completely blowing up the team, he can then claim that Wedge had so little to work with, so they’re bringing him back to give him a shot to succeed with this new group. Why he (or his staff) would deserve that shot is impossible to understand, but I’m not going to be surprised when Wedge is on the bench next year.
Isis,
I got it, you hate the tribe. Do you have to post the SAME exact feelings for 3 days straight now. Dolan is cashing in all his valuable assests before he sells the team. Again, I got it. move on to another point or at least phrase this one a bit differently next time.
And by your comments, I really think you should just get it out of the way and start rooting for the Red Sox.
I for one, can’t wait to see if these four studs that the blue jays wanted turn out to be anything compared to the guys the tribe got. I mean, Adam Miller was can’t miss too, right? hasn’t Drabeck already had TJ surgery?
Well, we had a few chances as an organization in the last 4ish years. We blew our biggest one 2 years ago. We can go on and on begging for a new owner, new GM, new manager, but all that vocality means squat.
We are what we are, and in the mold of trying to squeeze a chance for playoff runs for 2-3 years every decade, it’s time to reload. Especially since income has got to be hurting with the economy and attendance.
I think it’s telling that EVERY SPORTS EXPERT thinks we got less than deserved. It is surely no coincidence.
Scott, I don’t know buddy. I was one of the guys hoping Lee got moved, but I really thought we could have gotten a better take here. I’m not mad that we’re small market, have to cut costs, etc., but this is one of those moves that really makes me question Shapiro’s talent. Lee was arguably MORE valuable than Halladay because he’s more affordable and nearly as good. We got a pathetic take for him, IMO. I know it’s early, but are our scouts THAT much more knowledgable than the PHI scouts that we know these guys are better than they think? We don’t have a track record of strong scouting, so I’m hesitant to believe Shapiro in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We got a young guy with a big upside and current arm trouble, a AAA pitcher who projects at best to be a #3 (w/ a 5+ ERA in AAA this year) and two “utility” players with little to no MLB value (according to everyone but Shapiro). To me, that’s pretty paltry.
I wonder if all this misery can’t be traced back to Shapiro’s biggest mistake–a mistake that will sink this team for a decade–the Hafner signing.
“…and taking his place are four unknowns that will hopefully be part of the next good Indians team.”
That will only work if we win the WS before their first contracts are up… because if they become great players we will trade them before we have to pay them. It’s the Larry Dolan Circle of Suck.
@Fursdon: The attendance at Indians games has nothing to do with the Economy.
Dear Larry Dolan… Good players make good teams. Good teams sell tickets and make the playoffs. Teams that make the playoffs sell out games and bring in tens of millions of dollars in October alone, not to mention regular season sell outs. This all equals more $$$. Instead of nickel-and-diming and selling every player off the team, try building a good team… it’s called an investment. Ask your brother about it. Are you taking notes?
Jon S,
Why do you mention all the warts of the players the Tribe got, but fail to mention that Drabeck has a history of arm trouble as well?
Everyone, needs to tell the complete story of the 4 guys the Tribe got versus the 4 guys they did not get or else just wait until it shows itself FOR REAL on the field.
And if I was a betting man, I would wait until the ESPN “experts” made their picks for a given sporting contest and then bet heavily on the opposite.
Look. We made the playoffs in 2007, won as many games as any team in baseball. We didn’t sell out the stadium often. In fact, average attendance in 2007 was just over 28,000. This was when we were a great team, and we were averaging 16,000 empty seats a night. Then, in 2008 coming off that great season (one game from the WS etc.), we averaged barely 27,000. The 90’s are gone: we don’t have the fanbase or the booming economy to sell out that stadium anymore, so we have to operate like a small market team.
The point is, to be a SUCCESSFUL small market team, we have to be smarter than everyone else, and this trade suggests that we…well…aren’t.
@ Kevin,
I don’t mention Drabek’s problems because we didn’t get Drabek, weren’t going to get Drabek, and therefore his flaws aren’t my concern. My concern is with the players we DID get, who scouts (not just from ESPN, by the way), seem to say have low ceilings or a small chance of real impact. I loved the Sabathia trade–I thought it was a smart move and brought in real talent. This trade may well do the same, but to me, it doesn’t appear that way right now.
I just thought we could’ve done better.
who would have been better to get? drabek might not pan out…his elbow may fall off…who knows…who knows with anyone on any roster…anytime you get prospects in exchange for a major leaguer, its a crapshoot…but, thats how teams in our era and in our market have to be built…how many top prospects go the way of greatness as opposed to career minor leaguers? just looking at the list of top 100 prospects from 2006 reads like a laundry list of who’s who in the majors today…ellsbury, braun, votto, lincecum, upton, gordon…etc etc…truth is, you dont know what they will do right now…you just go based on what you think will happen…
“….average attendance in 2007 was just over 28,000. This was when we were <b?playing way over our heads, and all the fans knew it, and we were averaging 16,000 empty seats a night.
/fixed
and nice html fail…
just as an addition…check this out…AL MVP winner 2 yrs later…yet was 68th on the top 100…
68. Dustin Pedroia, 23, 2b, Boston Red Sox
2006 Stats (AAA): .305/.384/.426, 1 SB in 423 AB
Many Red Sox fans have already thrown in the towel on Pedroia, finding little to like in his .561-OPS, 31-game stint in the majors last season. However, Pedroia’s BABIP (batting average on balls in play) was an unlucky .188 with the Red Sox despite his hitting line drives at an above-average rate. Pedroia’s luck promises to change, as his biggest strength is a consistent ability to put the ball in play; in AAA he struck out in just 6.4 percent of his at-bats. Pedroia’s final 70 games in Triple-A — .332 AVG/.461 SLG — are indicative of the considerable potential in his bat.
@23: Didn’t the Indians draft Lincecum and not sign him because he may have been too pricey?
Par for the course.
Right, because if there’s one thing fans won’t pay to see, it’s a team that’s overperforming and going to the playoffs…
No, we prefer underperforming teams? That’s when we’ll sell out again?
@27 – yes we drafted him and didnt pay him…it happens quite often and may even happen with strasburg this year…if you can predict the future on any professional athlete, then you should be working for a professional sporting scouts company…
(by you I mean anyone, no one in particular)