Could Mangini Really Go?
Is it that time?
I have decided to skip the bullet points this week. I think we can have a far more interesting discussion than talking about Brady Quinn vs. Derek Anderson, or the plethora of turnovers committed by the Browns. For the first time this season, I am getting the feeling that the Browns might actually consider firing Eric Mangini. But first, let me set this whole thing up.
I am not making a prediction. I am also not proclaiming that firing Mangini is what I am rooting for. Firing any coach after one year is a devastating move for an organization. That isn’t to say it is always the wrong move, but it is certainly not what you want to be forced to do. Ideally continuity is a good thing in NFL organizations. Then again, continuity of failure is not. Make no mistake though, I am not pulling one way or another in this post. I am just trying to dissect this current situation in as objective a manner as possible. I am going to discuss some different points and try to figure out what it might mean to Mangini and his job security. I thought Patrick McManamon was insane last week with his call for Mangini to be fired, because I thought above all it was unrealistic. Today, it all feels a little bit different.
1. The Quarterback Situation – There is no way of knowing what is going on inside the Browns’ decision-making concerning the Browns’ QBs. I think it is safe to say at this point considering DA’s performances that there must be a non-football reason for the Browns to be sticking with DA. It would certainly be easier on the fans if the organization would just say what is going on. Then again, it might not be in the organization’s best interest as they figure out how to move forward into the future with trades, cuts, etc.
As it relates to Mangini and job security, I think of it like this. If Mangini thinks he is making a good football decision by keeping DA in the QB role, then it contributes to the theory that he could be fired. Brady Quinn might not be better than DA, but to think that Mangini could hold steady this long with DA based on football reasons alone, is pure insanity. Now, if it is, was and always has been about saving the reported $11 million bonus to Quinn, then I would say Mangini’s job is safer. The Browns don’t have cap problems, but if Mangini is doing all this QB stuff with the future of the cap in mind, it might defend him. Of course, Mangini can’t come out and say it is all about the money even if that is truly the case. Only Mangini and some people in Berea know for sure.
2. Randy Lerner’s Email – When Randy Lerner responded to Ohio.com regarding the fan protest during Monday Night Football, it almost seemed as if he was backing the Browns’ coach.
“The goal this year was to rebuild the culture at the Browns. We felt at the end of last year that we lacked any overall philosophy, approach or direction regarding recruiting, drafting, coaching, preparation or training.”
One thing we know for sure is that this is what Mangini is doing. He broke it down to nothing and is currently building something. Early on, I was extremely encouraged by the fact that the Browns were actually practicing hard. The country club was removed and a sense of discipline was instilled in the program.
Then again, the last statement that Lerner makes a point about “recruiting, drafting, coaching, preparation or training.” I think it is safe to say that the Browns’ current practice environment is better than it was under Romeo. Then again, the recruiting and drafting are anything but a notch in Mangini’s belt.
Ultimately, I think the email was meant to try to diffuse the situation created by the potential fan protest. Ultimately I think that can only be viewed as a vote of confidence for the Browns coach. Philosophy and approach aren’t changed over night. On the other hand, maybe Lerner is trying to tell the fans (and Mangini) that nothing is off the table in terms of resurrecting the Browns franchise.
3. Bernie Kosar Hired – The fact that Bernie was hired without a real conclusive role in the organization is instructive. This was certainly the first move by Lerner this season that indicated Mangini might not survive. The hiring of Kosar, one must assume, was a panicky maneuver by Lerner because he was worried about the goings-on in Berea even after just cleaning house. Having Bernie Kosar lurking over Mangini’s shoulder was presumably never a part of the plan when Mangini was hired. So what happened?
There are a few options. First, maybe the organization that Lerner thought he was getting with Mangini and Kokinis never appeared. Maybe all our fears about Kokinis being toothless in the organization have come to pass. We can’t know for sure, but something must have raised Lerner’s suspicions to hire Bernie Kosar.
4. Mangini’s Assistant Fired – Today the National Football Post and Tony Grossi are reporting that Mangini’s import Erin O’Brien was quietly fired or allowed to resign this week. According to the two stories, O’Brien was in charge of some of the Browns’ travel arrangements and made a few big mistakes while simultaneously “burning bridges” within the organization. Her hiring seems as if it might have been some semblance of insubordination on Mangini’s part anyway. In New York O’Brien was Mangini’s personal assistant, and Lerner reportedly denied Mangini’s request to hire her into that position here in Cleveland. Mangini gave her a different job and brought her to Cleveland anyway.
Obviously her firing or her resigning has to be viewed as a strike against the coach. If it isn’t an indication that he is on decidedly thinner ice, it is at least a message telling the coach that there are some other people capable of helping to guide this organization.
There is no way of knowing for sure who was the catalyst for this move at this point. Was it Lerner? Was it Bernie? Was it one of the other relatively anonymous “executives” that Lerner has working in Berea? We have no idea at this point, but it certainly looks like it could be a message someone is sending to the coach.
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Ultimately while I know the on-field “progression” has been almost non-existent, I thought for sure that Mangini would be granted at least two years to turn this thing around. It takes any coach that long to install new systems and import the right kind of talent. I also believe that the Browns were given almost no choice but to dismiss both Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow one way or another. Given those things, you would have thought Mangini would have bought himself additional leeway.
I can’t imagine for a second that anything will happen in the middle of the season. Just imagine for a second that you fire Eric Mangini tomorrow. Presumably the fiery Rob Ryan ends up as your interim head coach. I am fine with that prospect, quite honestly. For all the questions surrounding Ryan coming from Oakland, I think his defense has played admirably for most of the season thus far. The problem is trying to imagine Brian Daboll, the first year offensive coordinator, trying to manage the rest of the year without the head coach that hired him. Then again, could the offense be much worse?
As I said in the open, I am trying to discuss this as an objective observer. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it appears that something is officially going on. It might just be a little adjustment to make Lerner more comfortable going forward with Eric Mangini, or it might be a shot fired across the bow of Mangini’s ship. Only time will tell which it really is.
One thing I can say for sure is that if the Browns do blow it all up again this year, the options to start fresh (yet again) are far more intriguing than anybody who was hired this off-season. One of the problems with firing your coach is having a plan for the future. Between Mike Shanahan, Bill Cowher, and potentially even Mike Holmgren, you have to think the Browns would be in a better position starting from scratch in 2010 than they were starting from scratch in 2009.
So, what do you all think from an objective standpoint? Is Lerner positioning to fire Mangini, or are these just adjustments so the organization can continue with Mangini next season?
November 1st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Great graphic of Cowher! Looks like me at halftime.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:45 pm
But if we blow it all up we have to start over…forget it. Fire him and let Ryan run the team the rest of the year. I enjoy watching him taunt people down by 3 scores.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
One part of me says it’d be absurd to see him go already, but the other part of me thinks it is a very likely possibility. His stonefaced expression today said it all – and I think there was a lot more going on there than just dissatisfaction with the absolute abortion that we had to witness today
November 1st, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I think it is important to remember Lerner’s love affair with hiring Mangini. Remember the stories about Lerner being impressed with Mangini in New York, and how quickly he hired Eric after learning he was let go by the Jets.
Firing Mangini after just one year would have to be the last option as Lerner sees it. Now, it may just come to that, but it is still hard to imagine. And if you were Shanahan/Holmgren why would you take this job? (I’m sorry folks, but there is NO WAY Cowher is walking through that door. Cowher would consider that a slap in the face to thr Rooney family and he won’t do that.)
November 1st, 2009 at 6:49 pm
The only positive I’ve seen this season is that 0-16 is no longer a possibility. The offense is the worst I’ve seen at the professional or college level of any team. The defense seems to play hard sometimes, but the result is the same – terrible. Even the special teams have shown no signs of improvement whatsoever. When the highlight of the season is essentially based on the punter having the game of his life, I think it’s safe to say that the new organization is the worst we have seen to this point.
Seriously, has there ever been an defense that has looked worse than ours? I can’t speak to the beginning of the Tampa Bay franchise as I wasn’t alive then, but I can’t remember a worse offense at this level. It’s hard to say there hasn’t been a worse defense because the offense factors into this so much. This is the worst Browns team I’ve seen in terms of play on the field. I have to believe there’s a non-football reason for Quinn to not be starting, because otherwise it means Lerner hired a literal…what? I’m not sure of a good way to finish this metaphor. I hate this team. Not the Browns, but this incarnation of the team.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Eric Mangina and Brian Noballs have to go. I’m fine with Ryan as interim HC. Ryan has done a lot with almost nothing.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:55 pm
I think Lerner just might fire Mangini after this year if he could get Cowher. Obviously, that would be a hugely popular move. But if he can’t get Cowher, then we’re stuck with Mangini for at least another year, probably two. I don’t see Lerner upsetting things for Holmgren or Shanahan.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Yes…I think Lerner’s considering canning Mangini right now.
If you really think about it, Mangini has done everything humanly possible to suck the life out of Browns fans.
If agents are really telling players to stay away from Cleveland…that’s a bad, bad sign.
I’m sure Bernie’s telling Lerner that it IS that bad…
November 1st, 2009 at 7:06 pm
I agree that a change is coming, the fact that Bernie was brought in with no set role should not be surprising to anyone. The fact that the Browns have just about locked up the first or second pick in the 2010 draft, you know a quarterback is in the Browns future, Who better to tutor the fresh quarterback then one of the smartest to ever play the game let alone play for the orange and brown.
I think that Ryan could handle the team until the new coach is picked whether it is Shannahan, Holmgren ,Gruden or even if enough money is thrown his way Cowher,
Make the move and send Mangini packing and bring in a coach we can all feel comfortable with taking control of the Browns 11 draft picks in 2010.
The future depends on someone that can make great picks in the draft. Remember that Mangini brought in 10 of “his” guys and they have made no impact at all thru 8 games. What else can be said, you can change the country club attitude and that has happened I’m sure, but the “new” Jets..er Browns players have done nothing, experiment over.
Cut your losses now and make a better decision for the future of this franchise.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
I have never seen a fanbase turn against its team like this. Even the Raiders fans aren’t this bad. Then again, they don’t have a coach who has so completely turned its fanbase against his team.
The closest situation I can think of is with the LA Clippers and Dunleavy. He gets ABUSED by the home fans and the team quit on him years ago…and yet Sterling extends him. (Sterling is far and away the worst owner in sports. Lerner is bad, but not Sterling bad.)
Rob Ryan as interim HC at least makes the Browns somewhat interesting, and it keeps the fans at bay until at least the end of the year. Besides, I bet the team actually fights for him as opposed to Mangini, who the players clearly detest as much as the fans do. There’s no fight in the team at all.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:14 pm
I’m really starting to hate our invisible owner.
I’d rather stem the bleeding now and can Mangini.
There isn’t any lower we could go unless we keep that idiot around.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
I think Daboll gets fired or removed from play calling duties tomorrow. I don’t see how they call two runs up the middle with a RB that is 185 LBS and is built to run outside. Just doesn’t make sense.
Daboll gets the ax to bide some time for Mangini. I think if we don’t win at least 4 games this year then he gets fired. How can he justify keeping his job with this absolute train wreck? If Lerner wants to keep the fans he’ll fire him after this season. There isn’t even a foundation to build on. We need to hire a GM and let HIM build the foundation with our 11 draft picks. The only problem with firing him is that we had the #5 overall pick in the draft, he traded it away for a decent C, MoMass looks like he might be ok, Robo hasn’t shown anything, and Veikune is terrible thus far. That pick may set us back YEARS.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
I wanted Wedge gone because I think he is a good guy with a bad owner and a worse GM.
I want Mangini gone because I want him homeless living under a bridge and begging me for change.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
There was a particular rumor re: BQ that was pretty interesting to me while watching the game here w/ the DC backers.
One rumor mill is saying that at some point in the season, BQ and Ratliff had voiced concerns in Mangini’s offense. Additionally, during a team meeting BQ corrected an error that Mangini had stated/made etc.
Certainly lends credence to the idea that BQ is in the dog house (no pun intended) and his not playing despite DA’s pedestrian performance.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:18 pm
I like the post… a couple more questions from an objective standpoint.
1. Would Lerner be willing to eat the gigantic bowl of crow that would be forced upon him if he fires Mangini one year after being so enchanted with him as soon as he was fired by the Jets?
2. If he does have to do it over again does Lerner play it the right way this time going after a football ops guy before interviewing coaches? I agree that Cowher, Shanahan, and Holmgren would all be fantastic upgrades as coach of this team, but who’s interviewing them and making that decision? I think Lerner has proven that he’s not able to make those types of hiring choices from his position.
3. Is it possible that the plan was to be terrible this year? I mean if you’re going to blow it up we’ve certainly blown it sky high. Perhaps the plan all along was to completely blow it up, bring in ex-Jets who Mangini knew stunk, but would buy into his concept and he’d be able to start building a base of a team through the draft and next year’s free agency once he gets out of the salary cap mess that Savage put us in.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:20 pm
There are so many strikes against Mangini that it’s crazy. The bus situation with the rookies, Davis, the agent story, the insane QB situation, etc.
I’m not very old, but I can never remember a coach receiving the national hatred Mangini has, from the SI article proclaiming it the worst hire in the history of sports to the Rolling Stone piece.
I’m not saying I agree w/ the mountains of criticism, but I also believe “where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” If EVERYONE, even non-involved people like Rolling Stone, thinks this guy is miserable, maybe he is.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:22 pm
@15
Art Shell certainly got his share of mockery the 2nd time around in Oakland to name one coach who got a lot of national criticism.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:23 pm
firing a coach is always about replacement value…..if they could lure one of those proven coaches to the browns, i think this would be a move the browns would have to make. would a coach come here? thats the tough one…
November 1st, 2009 at 7:27 pm
@14: It is possible that the plan was to be bad and take some lumps this year, but I would assume that the team was supposed to show at least a little heart. Outside of Cribbs and a couple players on D, they have shown close to none, especially on offense. That team (and organization outside of Ryan) is DEAD. That’s completely on the head coach.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:27 pm
One more thought on saving money: Isn’t 2010 an uncapped year? I could see $11 million being useful. It’s clear Mangini doesn’t see Quinn as the answer. Why waste the money?
I think we’ve reached the point, though, where Quinn can’t reach the incentives, so maybe we’ll get another look at him.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
This may be the most damning stat of all. Our wide receivers and running backs have combined to score ZERO touchdowns on offense. Zero. Zip. Nada. None. That is utterly inexcusable.
November 1st, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Also, I don’t recall seeing anything about this yet on this site:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4614666
Jamal is considering retiring after this season (probably will according to this).
November 1st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
With a number of Super Bowl winning coaches available (Mike Shannahan, Bill Cowher, Brian Billick, Mike Holmgren, John Gruden), I’m praying the Browns make a move b/c Mangini has made it so bad that it’s painful to even watch this team anymore. This team needs a coach that the players can believe in and I think any of those aforementioned coaches (would love to see Cowher or Billick b/c of their history in the AFC North) could turn this team around.
The thing I don’t get is that Quinn obviously can’t reach the salary incentives, why not just put him out there? DA has been awful and I don’t know if it’s possible if Quinn could be any worse. I realize Mangini doesn’t like Quinn, but why not put Quinn out there and see what he can do? If anything else, hopefully he could play decent and salvage a draft pick out of him at the end of the year.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Alex: I thought you were kidding until I went and looked. That just blows my mind that we are halfway done and not once has a RB or a WR found the end zone.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:00 pm
It’s not the $11 million, there’s more to it than that… if not, then Mangini is as bad as we think he is. QBs need time to develop and if he wouldn’t even give it the college try for that, shame on him. Caveat: I don’t think BQ is the answer at all.
Now, on one hand I think someone like Cowher or Holmgren wouldn’t want to come here at all – what a miserable situation. On the other hand, maybe they’d see a slew of draft picks and a chance to build something from the ground up in a town hungry for change and success. It could go either way. I do think Mangina is teetering on the edge.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:03 pm
At this point I say we draft 7 db’s and 4 ol and hope that one of them works out eventually at each spot. I’d say repeat next year but we’ve got no skill players to do so
November 1st, 2009 at 8:11 pm
i always say this: coaches don’t count toward the salary cap. If there is a big-time coach available – pay him. owners like Lerner should have no problem absorbing a few million a year in buyout fees.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Missed the intro, but everyone’s favorite Favre-loving simpleton Peter King was on NBC talking the same subject as this post… Coincidence?
November 1st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I’m on the side that Mangini needs to go now. This level of ineptitude is simply inexcusable and he shouldn’t be kept around even if part of the plan was to start from scratch.
But I would’t get your hopes up for Cowher, Holmgren or Shanahan to be viable replacement options. Each one of these coaches has earned the right to step into the “perfect” situation for them. Why would they possibly want to come to the browns given our general lack of talent? I don’t see it happenning
November 1st, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I wish the draft was stronger. Sure, we’re stockpiling picks, but there aren’t that many good options.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:03 pm
@ Brian: Many people are saying the 2010 draft is really loaded…I read that a lot around the trade deadline last week…tons of teams were hestitant to part with draft picks
November 1st, 2009 at 9:09 pm
This is all hearsay – but I’ve heard from people who heard from people who work at the Browns that BQ challenged Mangini at a player meeting and that’s why he’s in the doghouse.
By “challenge” I mean Mangini was talking about pulling Quinn and BQ spoke up and said that it didn’t happen the way he was telling the players it did.
If this is the case, I’m glad our coach puts his pride ahead of the success of the franchise. Also, he fines people $1,700 for water bottles.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:25 pm
craig makes a great point at the end of the article there about the time it can take for any new coach to be successful with a new team. I have the rather unique experience of being a player on a team going through the same thing:
Im a senior playing d3 football and last season our coach of 30 years retired so we have a new head coach. I’m an offensive lineman so the specifics of what i say here are going to be offensively biased but the same is true for the whole team.
Last year we had one of the best offenses in d3 football, with the leading rusher (at the end of the regular season–Kmic from mt union ended up surpassing our boy by the end of the playoffs) and a real identity as an in-your-face, shove-the-ball-down-your-throat-sideways offense. This year, with nearly the same personnel, our new coach decided to switch to the spread. and weve gone from being a 5-5 team that put up 32 points a game to being 1-7 going into our last week with just under 20 pts a game, even though we still have the best running back in the country. but the new system has changed our identity, and thats been conflicting some with the older guys, just because its hard to change identities on the fly like that.
All this said, I do think our new coach is going to be a great thing for our program. He’s adding energy and discipline, and he’s stepping up recruiting a lot. BUT, this year, we had a very very down year. and i dont think there was really going to be any way around that fact, if only because everyone was trying to figure out new systems for the first half of the season, some of the sense of identity has been lost.
so i guess what im trying to say is i think there really is a lot of stock in the fact that this is Mangini’s first year and there are new systems to learn and identities to discover, and those things take some time, especially when dealing with poor personnel at the same time. I guess i vote that he deserves at least one more year, no matter the outcome of the rest of the season
November 1st, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I give credit where credit is due, and ALL the credit goes to Isis as of right now. He didn’t like the Mangini hire at the very beginning and he stuck with that stance, although it was annoying and he did criticize too much.
Props to Isis. I wasn’t for or against the hire, I just wanted the man to succeed.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:38 pm
According to the OBR, Lerner was super pissed at the team after the game and glared at everyone. What an abomination.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:41 pm
The Mangina era is probably done.
[Cleveland.com]
Kokinis is a bum who shows up at 11 on game day and sleeps in his office. What a disaster
November 1st, 2009 at 9:50 pm
There’s no way Lerner writes a gigantic buyout check to Mangini and then goes out and pays a ransom for an accomplished coach. We’re stuck.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:55 pm
List of permanent Cleveland Browns Coaches Since Return:
Chris Palmer – Everyone’s 73rd choice
Butch Davis – Snake oil salesman
Romeo Crennel – Completely aloof
Eric Mangini – Pure evil
Hard to believe we haven’t been more successful.
November 1st, 2009 at 9:59 pm
@35 – thanks for pointing that out. I find real comfort in the fact that Lerner was clearly incensed and love the image of him glowering at players and staff as they walked out the tunnel and onto the field in the second half. Though the report is anecdotal, it does strongly suggest that there is some real top-to-bottom scrutiny going on right now. I wonder if Daboll gets the axe this week. You just can’t be that consistently inept and keep your job.
Bottom line: I am one of Lerner’s biggest critics (and still hold him accountable for letting this mess build up to such proporitions) but we can all rally around his display and have some faith that some degree of change is on the way.
November 1st, 2009 at 10:02 pm
From the PD:
“Mangini, who has adamantly refused to play Quinn since yanking him at halftime of Game 3, said he inserted him “to give him some reps.”"
So, after DA had a passer rating of 10.5, you put Quinn in only to give him reps. You’ve got to be kidding me.
Also, scanning through the other comments, I was distraught not to see Isis. His posts are certainly more interesting than anything the Browns are doing.
November 1st, 2009 at 10:14 pm
On the bright side, we don’t play the Saint this year. What an incredibly embarrassing game that would be.
November 1st, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Is the problem the quality of the players, or the quality of the coaching?
Some here are saying that they want Mike Shannahan, Bill Cowher, Brian Billick, Mike Holmgren or John Gruden to come in and coach because they think these coaches can do a better job with the team.
But others are saying that these coaches wouldn’t come here because the players are so bad.
If the players are bad then Mangini isn’t the problem, and he needs to be given time to rebuild the team.
If the players are good but the coaching is not allowing them to play to their potential then yes, replace the coach.
November 1st, 2009 at 11:05 pm
#42 The players are bad. Mangini makes them worse.
Only someone desperate to get back into coaching would take the job now.
Make Isis the coach!
November 1st, 2009 at 11:52 pm
They can’t get rid of Mangini for another 2 years. They need to keep with the plan of getting rid of coaches every 3 years.
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:04 am
Coupled with all the complete crap Mangini has pulled off on his players with ridiculous fines, completely unrepectful treatmant, and now apparently with lyeing to the team about the Brady Quinn benching, there is no wonder the team is playing horrible.
You can’t find me one athlete that will play hard for a coach that show’s zero respect and lies.
Putting Brady in at the end of the game was a complete slap in the face to him, and honestly props to Brady for even going out there. To say you’re not gonna pulll DA no matter what before the game then putting Quinn in with three minutes left down by nearly thirty is uncalled for.
Honestly, as big of a jerk as Mangini is, he could still save himself if he came up with a good game plan, and offensive attack. However, that definitely is not happening as we have failed to score over 6, yes two field goals, TWO FIELD GOALS!!! in 5 out of 8 games. I could take the playbook straight out of the Madden video game and manage to call a better game then what Mangini and his completely ignorant O-coordinator are doing.
The Browns are a joke, and everyone knows it. But likewise the fanbase is just as dumb. You know what, if you hate what the team is doing so bad, what are you doing not showing up for the beginning of a game? That’s gonna make a difference? The organization could care less, you still paid for that ticket and they have their money. If you wanna make a statemant STOP BUYING TICKETS. Don’t waste your hard earned money on a team that in all honesty has given up. Who’s paying for Mangini’s salary? You are. Who’s paying for this franchise to continually botch every decision they have made with no real consequences? YOU. Stop buying tickets and trust me, things will change. They will have to. And don’t be scared the browns are gonna pack up and move again because they aren’t. It ain’t gonna happen. The NFL won’t let it happen. They’ll step in before that. Nut up people.
But no, we will continue being the puppy pound. Mindlessly shelling out thousands of dollars to go watch a horrible team play, and just helping them right into the ditch. You wanna put the heat on lerner? Cancel your season ticket package for next year. Keep goin to the games this year because you paid a lot of money for that ticket. But next year, stop throwing away your money. Make a real statemant. And it’s not because you don’t care, its because you actually do care, and you have had enough of this joke of an organization.
November 2nd, 2009 at 12:08 am
Mangina should be fired because teams like the Falcons and Dolphins last year were terrible the year before that and turned it around with in one year and made the playoffs. Who cares if Lerner has to eat Mangina’s contract, he can afford it. The Browns need to bring in a proven and experienced NFL coach who can get the job done. The Browns need to play Quinn the rest of the season to really see if he has the skills to be a NFL qb or not. If not, we should take a qb with are first draft pick and build the team up from there. Get Marty back!!
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:27 am
Magnini stays, Mangini goes… does it really matter?
The next good decision Lerner makes, will be his first.
I don’t care how he glowers at the players in wk8. I don’t care what he says in an email to the ABJ. I care about results. And the results are in on Lerner… this is an arrogant, indecisive man, and there is not a shred of a reason to give him the benefit of any doubt that he’s capable of making a sound decision to help advance this organization in any positive way.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he admitted he wasn’t a football guy, and appreciated that he wanted to stay in the background. He lost me during last year’s coaching search, when he addressed why he didn’t want to hire a football exec to run the organization in his absence and instead thought the HC and GM should report directly to him, because he’d “picked up a thing or two.”
It makes me sick to my stomach that this is what my Browns have come to.
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:46 am
If you read the latest Cleveland.com articles about both Mangini and Lerner, it seems Lerner actually is looking at possibly hiring a President for the team. Maybe after all these years of losing he’ll actually get real football people in here to run the team. I’d hope to get Cowher but since he turned down the team last year…
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:49 am
This is really interesting. Had no idea of all this back-stabbing bs that was happening up in berea. I think Daboll needs to go, maybe Bernie will take over as OC. I am still iffy on whether or not Lerner would fire a coach after one season. I can see the browns doing it if they do not win another game, because their ‘win’ was less then lackluster. I dont know if I would go for one of these prestigious coaches though. Seems like rookie head coaches, with an experienced staff around them have been having a lot more success in the NFL recently. Also, I would hate to see Ryan leave if Mangini is fired.
November 2nd, 2009 at 1:54 am
At this point If Mangini was fired..I guess I would be fine with that. I do not think Kokinis should be let go too. Cleaning house causes to many problems. One other thing though…
In NO way should Cowher should be hired here. I know he was a coach here at one point BUT no no no I do not want a Steelers coach here. That would be the ultimate defeat for me.
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:00 am
My vote is for Gruden. Born in Sandusky, went to Dayton, and grew up a Browns fan. He is the only coach to somehow coach two teams to the Super Bowl in the same year. I’ve always been a fan, and between him and if we keep Ryan, that would be one scowling coaching staff.
November 2nd, 2009 at 2:29 am
I wonder if Gruden has an out in his ESPN contract. He’s doing a pretty good job on Monday nights — better than I would have thought — and looks like he’s enjoying himself too. Can’t imagine a coach of his caliber though wanting to take over this big a mess in mid-season.
Maybe Schottenheimer? Agrees to interim coach and then take a front office job next year?
They can only put lipstick on a pig at this point.
November 2nd, 2009 at 7:55 am
I know everyone wants to blame Al Lerner, but I cant. He has show that he is a good owner in other instances. I mean, didn’t we all think Phil Savage was a brilliant hire?
Here is a telling description from the Birmingham Post (in England). It describes Lerner’s capability in leading their team to a championship. The crazy thing is, if you read this in another newspaper, you’d think it was about another team.
“You heard it here first. In the 2008 Birmingham Post Rich List we gave you the exclusive news that Brooklyn-born Aston Villa owner Randy Lerner was buying a house near Birmingham. A few weeks later it was confirmed by the man himself. He is renovating a property in Bodymoor Heath, close to Villa’s training ground. In fact that’s just one of the ways in which the US entrepreneur and lawyer is differentiating himself from some other overseas owners of British soccer clubs. He is immersing himself in his adopted city and country, its culture and its heritage. And he is treating the club he owns with respect. He understands that it is a venerable institution with a long history and proud heritage, not simply an investment vehicle to be laden with debt.”
November 2nd, 2009 at 8:49 am
Randy Lerner…what a guy…fans are chaunting…
November 2, 2009. Berea. 8am:
Mr. Daboll, you are not permitted in the complex, security will clean out your office and have your personal items sent to your home.
Mr. Mangini, you’ve got 8 weeks to show something, anything.
Mr. Kosar? How does the title of President of Football Operations sound to you? Oh and you will work for free for a year because you owe me serious cheese.
November 2nd, 2009 at 8:57 am
@52 hahahahah, nice Bernie ref
November 2nd, 2009 at 9:11 am
I’m a Kentucky basketball fan, and watching Mangini and the Browns this year reminds me too much of UK’s disastrous two years under Billy Gillispie. The only difference is that Gillispie had drinking and behavioral problems, which doesn’t seem to be the case with Mangini.
But it’s eerie watching so many of the same issues with a different team & sport: psychotic control issues, bizarre personnel decisions, rumors about dissension and unhappy players, no clear direction/strategy/identity, saying things are going fine after getting drubbed (like UK losing to freaking Gardner-Webb at home). Fortunately, UK realized the magnitude of their mistake and cut their losses. Hopefully, something similar will happen here.
To echo what Ben said @16, when there is this much smoke, there must be some fire. Certainly there was with Gillispie.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:10 am
Too bad there isn’t a Larry Brown of football who isn’t already w/ the Dolphins.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:12 am
Fire the smug bast@%d already. I think Holmgren would be a great hire seeing that he is a guy that knows how to develop QB’s into Pro Bowler/future hall of famers and has done so everywhere he has been (Montana, Young, Favre, Hasselback). It has been proven to be a solid franchise in todays NFL you need a good GM, strong coach, and a good QB. We need someone who can do this and Holmgren is the best guy for the job. Cower would be great also, for different reasons, but I dont see him betraying the Rooney’s like that; even though he played for the Browns and started his coaching career here. Gruden is not the answer! He is another ego-maniac who would want toal control and left the raiders and bucs franchises in total disaray; not to mention for being a supposed QB guru name one he has developed? Fire Mangina and Kok-in-ass now, make a play for Holmgren, Cower, or Shanahan.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 am
Ben, my thoughts exactly. I know it will never happen, but if anyone could fix the issues of the Browns, it’d be Parcells. The man is like a missionary in the NFL, going from franchise to franchise, leaving it better off than how he received it.
I know Parcells won’t happen, but I could see one of the other veteran coaches coming in b/c they know how much of a challenge it will be and it could cement their legacy as an all-time great coach by resurrecting one of the most storied NFL franchise’s that has been anything, but great since it’s return in 1999. It may be unrealistic to hope for, but with how bad the Browns are right now, all I can do is hope and dream.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:28 am
“Too bad there isn’t a Larry Brown of football who isn’t already w/ the Dolphins.”
Parcells has a clause in his contract that allows him to opt out, collect 100% of what’s owed on the remainder of his contract, and walk at any time (it was a limited clause giving him 30 days to do so if there was a change in ownership, and the new owner extended it indefinitely to keep Parcells on board when ownership changed last year.)
So he could, conceivably, be had.
Why he’d want to come here, though, I don’t know. Maybe the challenge would be appealing to him, but we’re in far worse shape than the Dolphins were when he arrived.
Personally, I tend to think he finally rides off into the sunset when he leaves Miami… I can’t see him taking another full-time gig after his current one is up.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:47 am
This has been a Browns fans worst nightmare.
The offense has been offensive at best. The defense has been on the field way to much, and as a result it’s hard to judge if real improvement has been made. The one thing that can be said is that their tackling in the open field is just as bad as its ever been. Josh Cribbs and Dave Zastadil are the only bright spots on this team. It really is hard to believe that 2 years ago we won 10 games.
Mangini must go! There is no reason for waiting. He’s destroyed the product on the field and there is never any good reason for doing that. It will be impossible to get anybody that is any good at all to sign with this team as long as he’s in charge. The only thing he has done that is promising is his stockpiling of draft picks for next year. Thankfully the only pick we will have that is going to cost us boatloads of money will be our pick “awarded” to us for this dreadful season. And I don’t believe all of this talk about spending freely in the “uncapped” year, this will only come back to haunt us when the new salary cap is unveiled with the new CBA.
The real question is who should coach our Browns? Let’s go over some of the fan favorites.
Bill Cower – Won’t do it, has to much respect for the Rooney family. Will probably end up in Dallas.
John Gruden – Be careful of what you wish for, only won the Super Bowl with a team assemble by Tony Dungy. Had a horrible track record with quarterbacks, but enjoyed collecting them.
Mike Shannahan – More of a power freak than anyone we’ve had here, would most likely want complete control of all things football. Really not won anything since John Elway left town, average teams with good running games.
Mike Holmgren – He also had complete control of the last team he coached, although a very likable person the Seahawks were never really considered in the elite of the league.
Brian Billick – My personal favorite. Won with defense even though he was supposed to be an offensive coach, but never really had a good offense. It would be odd, almost like having Sam Wyche as the coach of the Browns.
The only thing that a new coach would be able to look forward to is the slew of draft pick that will be waiting for him, and a owner that has proven (over and over again) that he is not afraid to spend money.
Which leads us to our owner.
For all of the people screaming for him to sell the team, you have to be kidding me. This man has tossed around money trying to get it right and has failed, but at least he has tried. He needs to hire a person to be in charge of the football operations and let that person make the correct hires. This will be his most important move going forward. I find it hard to believe that the people in Cleveland would call for someone with very deep pockets to sell. Doesn’t anyone remember the Dolans. Be Careful What You Wish For. Randy Lerner must get it right before his team has no fans left.
November 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am
I agree with all points except for the possible coaching choices. Here are my reasons:
1. I grew up in Northeast Ohio but now live in the Seattle area. If you will remember, Holmgren wouldn’t stay here unless he had full control of football operations. Is this the kind of situation we want in the Orange and Brown? I seriously doubt it. Weren’t we trying to get rid of that attitude when Winslow and Edwards were traded?
2. Shanahan has really only coached teams with strong owners. That’s not anything we have in Cleveland. He would feel lost and exposed all the time and nobody would have his back.
3. I agree with Rick in his assessment that Cowher wouldn’t slap the Rooney family in the face by swooping into their divisional rival. That’s not going to happen.
That really only leaves one decent alternative, John Gruden. Gruden’s teams, although perhaps not the best each year, fought with everything they had when they stepped onto the field. Did you notice that Tampa Bay looks lifeless without him on the sideline? I never saw the Bucs give up with him standing there.
I’m not a big Gruden fan personally but imagine the fires lit under the players wearing Orange and Brown with Gruden and Rob Ryan on the sideline. That combination could get the most out of a bad situation and, with some real talent added through the draft and free agency, things could look much brighter in a very short amount of time.
Ryan and Gruden are both fierce competitors from a similar mold as
Cowher. Neither backs down from criticism or responsibility. If we could find a general manager (Kosar?) and an offensive coordinator with the same competitive fire, you’d get nothing less than 110% from the organization every time they made a move whether in the front office or on the field.
Except for the 21-point second quarter against Green Bay, Ryan’s defense has played admirably. He’s kept this team in games when they shouldn’t have been. The late-game collapses are due to the fact that the offense can’t stay on the field long enough to give the defense a rest. It’s either a 3-and-out or a turnover. The only rest they really get is when Anderson throws a pick-six and the defense doesn’t have to go back out again. When you consistently lose the time-of-possession battle, your defense will take a beating. Look at the best teams in the league and see where they lie in that battle?
Ryan is worth keeping. We just need about 2 more of him in high positions on the sideline (HC, OC) and in the GM role. Kokinis is a Mangini “yes man” and Dabol doesn’t understand how to call a game based on the talent and skills he has available (a lesson he should learn from Ryan). Mangini is an ego maniac. I say dump the 3 during the bye week, move Ryan into an interim HC role and start seeing what you can do about getting Gruden in the clubhouse.
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I give credit where credit is due, and ALL the credit goes to Isis as of right now. He didn’t like the Mangini hire at the very beginning and he stuck with that stance, although it was annoying and he did criticize too much.
It’s like Fox News. Just because he paints himself as the only one anti-Mangini from the start over and over and over doesn’t necessarily make it so. I addressed this here. It’s total BS. Don’t feed the beast.
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
To that end, I myself have always been in the boat of “Hated the hire, but willing to give him the two years before evaluating the whole picture”. That having been said, I agree with those that have said that Daboll probably gets the axe this week. I would suspect that, much like RAC/MoCarthon, it’s going to take some higher-level intervention, but I think it gets done. I just wonder who on the staff can call plays at this point.
On second thought, however, I think any of us with the “Tecmo Bowl four play sheet” could do as well as the offense currently is doing.
November 2nd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I could not disagree with you more. First to allow Mangini to continue. will set this team back years. He will never succeed no top free agents will come here and play for him. His drafts in NY show he can’t draft. So prey tel how is he going to build something. with nothing to build with. Second to say getting ride of Winslow and Edwards was good. Shows you have no clue. Getting rid of them. With out having a play maker to take there place was stupid. especially Winslow. He was the one guy on the team. That played hard every snap. He had a fire inside. No current brown has. To allow this guy to continue. will just make fans hatred build even more. What this team needs is a coach now to evaluate what is left. Kosar is my choice. Why one asked. Because Bernie knows offence. He can see first hand what we have to move forward with. For the new coach. to waste the next 8 games. so Mangini can continue as coach is wasting time. something the Browns do not have. Time for you to wake up. Now I do like some of your writings. but on this subject your clueless……….
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:18 pm
By the time this season comes to it’s brutal end Lerner might have no choice by to fire Mangini. I’m 100% supportive of making the move as soon as possible. Looking at the head coaching candidates for next season gives me hope. The thought of Mangini coming back next year and ruining another draft makes me sick.
I’m mostly sad that an entire generation of young Browns fans are already jaded and will most likely choose follow a different team and rightfully so. My first son will be born in less than a month and I’m really hoping that this team will be a winner by the time he’s old enough to know any better.
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Mangini losing his job would be the best Christmas present I could get this year. I’m completely over him now.
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:59 pm
@65, you. Couldn’t. Be. More. Wrong.
I’m not going to do that anymore: periods go at the end of sentences, not scattered liberally throughout. NY shows that, actually, there were some excellent selections. What we don’t know is how much control Mangini had, which is certainly arguable, but it’s not like the Savage miss-miss-miss-hit on Joe Thomas and him alone.
Mangini was with the Jets starting the 06 draft. From then till he was fired, he had a clear miss so far (Gholston) from early rounders. He’s also had a lot of extremely good hits: Nick Mangold (pro bowl, widely regarded as one of the best centers in the league), D’Brickashaw Ferguson (good LT), Leon Washington (cmon, you know who he is), Darrelle Revis (widely regarded as one of the best corners in the league), David Harris (solid starting LB and all-rookie), Dustin Keller (outstanding rookie year as a TE), etc. You are just entirely and completely wrong about drafting in NY.
It’s been widely discussed here and elsewhere why getting rid of both Winslow and Edwards was good. Edwards clearly did not want to play here and was a locker room poison. He was also going to be a free agent next year, so if we didn’t trade him, the odds are extremely good that he would’ve walked and we’d have received absolutely nothing for him. Winslow was also clearly not going to come back – he wanted an extreme amount of money and was going to be overpaid anywhere, so again, getting rid of him when we could still get something in return was a good idea. Now look at Tampa Bay with his amazing skills. You can argue about WHAT we got in return, but it’s incredibly clear that they had to be traded, especially with this being a lost season from the start. Where does reality come into your thinking?
November 2nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I agree that Winslow has a fire. Do you think, however, that at this point in the season he wouldn’t be a total distraction?
Also, dude wanted to get p-a-i-d, and it literally one play away from ending his career if someone hits his knee.