Bulls 86, Cavs 85: Twin Towers, Be Gone
The Cavaliers can continue to use the excuse of “still working out the kinks.” They can say that they are more concerned about the playoffs – or games in May and June – than they are now. Those are both valid arguments. But when a team that won 66 games the year prior is at home against a tough conference opponent, you also play to win now.
Not that the Charlottes of the world are not deserving of our undivided focus, but I would prefer that this Cavaliers team work out the rotations and try new things then. Against the Bulls, an athletic team that could run you right out of the building, you play to win now. Use the lineups that work, toy with them when you have the freedom to do such.
Those that want to throw their hands up and say that this game came down to the final play of the contest are just fooling themselves. Was their contact? Sure, though not enough to draw a foul. (As an aside, I totally concur with Brian Windhorst who says that last night’s game should quiet those that think the game is fixed or that stars “get all of the calls” at key points in the game.)
This game was essentially lost when Shaquille O’Neal and Zydrunas Ilgauskas came on to the floor together in the fourth quarter. With the Cavs up by a small margin and these two clogging up the floor for the majority of the first three quarters, I thought that there would be no way Mike Brown could role with the “twin towers” rotation again. But I could not have been more wrong.
O’Neal had an excellent game with 14 points, 10 rebounds and five blocked shots. But his presence constantly pushes Ilgauskas at least 15 feet from the hoop, negating him from any offensive rebounding opportunities while forcing him to take mid-range jump shots. I understand that Big Z is a better shooter than most, but is that something that we have to rely on? Is Mike Brown trying to make Ilgauskas our “stretch forward” a la Rashard Lewis or Antawn Jamison? I realize he didn’t get one of those this off-season, but this like a little kid pretending that a birthday gift of socks is actually the toy truck that he really wanted. It may work in his mind, but everyone else will think he’s nuts.
The bench play, once again, was next to nil. Whether you choose to peg this on Brown and the rotations is your call. J.J. Hickson was brutal. The abovementioned Ilgauskas was 0-for-9 from the floor. Delonte West could not get into a rythem and was the victim of several solid moves by Kirk Hinrich. Daniel Gibson had a solid effort with two threes and making three of his four shots, but was limited to less than 20 minutes. Jamario Moon never took off the warm-ups. This team may miss John Kuestner more than we thought they ever would.
Of course, the Cavaliers schedule will not do them any favors as the team flew into New York following last night’s game. It will undoubtedly be yet another circus of media and LeBron James speculation. One can only hope that James (who said that “his parade starts at 8pm” tonight) will focus on the task at hand and get this Cavaliers team a win.
A repeat of last year’s game in Madison Square Garden would definitely be nice.
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(Photo by David Liam Kyle/NBAE via Getty Images)
November 6th, 2009 at 10:05 am
More mins for Moon, less for Z.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Well said Scott, let’s see what adjustments they make from here.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:15 am
LeBron really needs to stop whining when he doesn’t get a whistle at end-of-game situations like that. It’s been happening for years now and the fans at the Q kinda spoil him a little with the booing. I know we want to be supportive of our superstar, but we need to tell him when he’s wrong too.
In those types of situations, it would be much, much better if LeBron either took a jump shot or passed to the open man instead of trying to take a shot that obviously doesn’t exist and hope for a whistle.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:16 am
JJ Hickson needs to play. Someone on the other thread said Hickson sucks and shouldn’t play until he can prove he can make rational decisions. How can he prove that if he doesn’t play? Or if Brown pulls a Wedge and screws with the kid’s confidence by yanking for the game every time he takes a bad shot. Chew him out on the bench and send him back in!!! He is our only athletic big man. WE NEED TO TRY TO DEVELOP HIM FOR THE SHEED/GARNETT TANDEM. We should be able to play Mo-West-Bron-Hickson-Andy if we have to. It is the only lineup we never try. And the only one that promises to end our pick-n-roll woes.
Seriously.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Shaq and Z should never be on the floor at the same time. Man is that frustrating to watch.
Sadly, I have to agree with Charles Barkley
November 6th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Mike Brown rotated this team into last night’s loss. Z & Shaq against Miller & Taj Gibson in the fourth was moronic. It didn’t work. AND HE DIDN’T RECOGNIZE IT. Going small w/under three minutes left down a couple baskets was an adjustment that came too late. Sure they missed free throws and too many shots, but they would not have been in that position if Brown had done his job and given his team the best chance to win against the lineup the Bulls were playing.
I don’t like saying this, but it is apparent – Mike Brown does not have what it takes as a coach to get the Cavs over the hump against quality opponents, and he’s showing no signs of improving in this area. I really hope he does turn things around, but he’s shown himself to be a very slow learner. His rotations are as erratic as JJ’s play.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:21 am
They need to go small with James at the four. It keeps him near the hoop (less 1 on 5 offense) and they can cover more ground defensively.
Also, play Z with LeBron. Let them do the pick and pop.
They CANNOT keep running Shaq and Z out there together and expect to beat good teams.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:22 am
It’s a process.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Using Big Z as a power forward against Joakim Noah, Tyrus Thomas, and Taj Gibson is just plain stupid. Those guys can jump about 10 feet higher than he can and will run circles around him. That would have been the perfect time to use LeBron at power forward and Jamario Moon at small forward. So far this season, Mike Brown’s ability to find the right match ups against the other team’s players has been extremely underwhelming.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Our best lineup is last year’s starting five (Andy instead of Ben).
November 6th, 2009 at 10:26 am
the part that frustrated me about the twin towers (more than the lack of speed) was that the whole freaking point of those two is that height=defense=controlling paint=rebounds. every single time they were together, taj gibson and joakim noah got offensive rebounds. are you kidding me with that?
i thought about this game this morning, and thought i was “monday morning quarterbacking” mike brown’s decisions. but then i realized all the thoughts i had about his rotations and play calling, i had them DURING the game, not just after. if fans can see that he’s making the wrong choices while he’s making them, then there’s a problem.
we need to start Z and delonte. last year, we had an advantage over every team in the league except the magic and the lakers. why ruin your advantage against all 27 other teams to fit in the fixes we brought in for just those 2 teams?
/end rant
November 6th, 2009 at 10:28 am
They do NOT need to play LeBron at the 4. As Jalen Rose points out in his less than stellar, but generally on-point, analysis:
“It all starts with the interior, and unless they made a deal, they aren’t going to be any better than third in the East. Anytime LeBron James has to play the 4 as much as he did against the Bulls, it is going to make Cleveland’s backcourt vulnerable. Chicago’s size and the athleticism of its guards gave Cleveland problems.”
You need to have a lineup that has two quick bigs. You don’t need a monster! Taj and Tyrus dominated us. Neither is 7 ft tall. Sheed and Garnett are not true 7 footers. Bosh and Bargnani ate us up. Bargnani I think is 7 ft barely. Bosh is not.
These teams have defeated us. See a pattern. We made the comeback against Boston when Sheed was off the floor. Soon as he came back, dunzo.
Our three losses are to teams with two sub-7 ft bigs that can get up and down the floor. We MUST develop Hickson and solve this problem. What’s going to happen when we play Atlanta in the playoffs? Or a healthy Bulls team without a Rondo to counter Rose? Or the Celts and they roll out the Sheed/Nett? As I’ve stated, the only elite team we have a chance to beat now is the only one we couldn’t beat last year: Orlando.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Honestly, the part about this that is going to bug me the most is that Mike Brown has shown that he is very resistant to changing his way of thinking (think the Orlando series last year). That means it will probably be 30 games until he stops putting Shaq and Z on the floor at the same time, if ever.
Odss on Danny Ferry trading Shaq or Z just so Mike Brown can’t play them at the same time?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Wait a sec, what does our inability to stop guards have to do with LeBron playing the 4? That makes no sense to me. From a defensive standpoint, we would have been much, much, much better off than having Z try to guard the 4. And having a good defender like Moon in the game to guard Deng at the 3 is also a plus. From an offensive standpoint, I understand what Rose is saying, but I don’t think the loss of having LeBron set up the offense (particularly if we could have used Delonte at that time) is more than the loss of having nobody to guard the 4. I wish the answer was Hickson, but right now it clearly isn’t. He can’t be trusted in the 4th quarter.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Please, please, please stop playing the Twin Towers together. It would be sweet in a video game, but not in real life b/c they’re too slow and big to play together. I love J.J.’s raw ability, but he’s so sporadic that it’s hard to have him in during crunch time. I have been as critical of Boobie as anyone and I have been pleasantly surprised by his play. Hope he continues this through the entire season.
I still see the Cavs making a deal using Z’s big contract to bring someone in and hope it happens sooner rather than later, but don’t see it happening until some teams fall out of the playoff race. I liked the talk on Cavalier attitude about bringing in Rudy Gay, unlikely, but would be a great addition. Also wouldn’t mind the rumors of Gerald Wallace to start up again.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Also, @13, I don’t think the right answer is to never put Shaq and Z on the floor at the same time. That lineup has been effective in certain situations. It worked well against the Wizards, for example. Those two would probably be effective against pairings like Okur/Boozer, Duncan/McDyess, and possibly even Gasol/Bynum. They are just always going to get crushed by athletic/undersized bigs.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:42 am
In the very early season returns, Mike Brown’s coaching has been extremely suspect. To me the twin towers lineup cannot be justified under any circumstances – on offense you turn Z into purely a slow-footed jump shooter who is not in position to make offensive rebounds, and on defense you DESTROY your chances of defending the pick and roll. And, as a practical matter, it just doesn’t make sense playing big guys in their late 30s so many minutes so early in the season. Making it even more idiotic is that Andy is playing out of his mind right now.
Last night’s game was one of the reasons Jamario Moon was brought in – to match up against longer faster 3s and 4s. Why he’s been buried on the bench since Delonte has returned is beyond me.
It also looks like Brown is giving JJ the old Brady Quinn treatment – put him in only in select spots, don’t allow him to get in any sort of rhythm and put him in a place to completely fail. I’ll agree that JJ has looked erratic at best, but he’s got to be given a reasonable amount of playing time to show what he’s really got. When he got constant minutes in the preseason, he shined.
Also, if Brown insists on keeping the current idiotic rotation, can someone explain to me please what the hell we’re going to do with Leon Powe if he comes back healthy? Is the plan for him to play Z’s minutes that are now during the twin towers time? Based on what we’ve seen so far, I don’t think Mike Brown has thought about this question for one minute.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:46 am
I agree that Z should not be guarding the 4, P@. And Jamario at the 3 is plausible. I don’t disagree with you. Develop and play ONE of those guys. Either get Jamario into the offense so he can set the spacing and be functional, or get Hickson going. We have to be able to trust one of them in the 4th. Have to. Or those 2 man, sub-7 sets will kill us all year–again, our only three losses came against those lineups.
I still think Hickson is the better option. It spells Shaq. It spells Z. More importantly at this point, he can spell Andy. Until Lebron stops being an idiot and starts planting on the post, then he can’t play the 4. Where does Jamario go in an offensive set of Mo-West-Moon-Bron-A/Z/S? Nowhere. You can’t have 4 guys moving on the wing–at least not in a Mike Brown offense.
We need another agile big. Plain. Simple. Truth. Mike Brown just doesn’t understand player development. Every mistake and then the kid has to suffer uncertainty about playing time for a week. It’s nonsense. Give him regular minutes at a regular time. Let him make mistakes! God. Everyone is saying it’s a work in progress; then let it be that! Let someone progress. You are simply not going to get different results against teams with 2 man, sub-7 sets when Shaq or Z is playing. EVERYONE KNOWS THIS. Let’s try to DEVELOP something else.
P@ – I do love Mo-West-Moon-LBJ-Shaq v. Orlando though.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:46 am
@3
Passed to an open man… You mean like Mo, who in the last 3 possesions missed a wide open 3 AND also had a hideous tear drop that banked off the glass that wasn’t anywhere close. LeBron has to take shots, and if he didnt drive to the hole and try to get a call, people on here would have been crying. He did exactly what he should have done, because nobody on this team can be trusted with :01 left and the ball. Only problem is this time it didn’t work/he didnt get the call.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Z and Shaq can work very rarley together. The problem right now is that Brown wants to use it game in and game out
November 6th, 2009 at 10:48 am
AMC – on point.
So I was thinking about going down to the Q next week to protest…
WHO’S WITH ME?!
November 6th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Agree with MacNip, it appears Brown if forcing the Twin Tower issue instead of utilizing it based on the rare matchup advantage.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:52 am
1. Where is the energy? These guys are not only playing without chemistry yet, they are playing without ANY fire at all. That’s troubling for a team that had its heart broken last year. They should be coming back with a vengeance.
2. Let’s face it, our bench still simply isn’t good enough. I thought Parker and Moon were two key pieces, but with Delonte’s troubles and Moon’s lack of playing time and effectiveness so far, Parker can’t come off the bench and Moon isn’t helping. Maybe it’s time to suit up Danny Green and see what he has to offer.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Shaq and Z can work never together. Never. Give me Andy and Shaq v all of those combinations.
Everyone is overlooking the bigger point here: Z is done. That one year made a huge difference. He fell apart this off-season. He can’t move at all. Rebounds are coming off the glass/rim and hitting him in the face. His hands are so slow. He’s having trouble catching passes. It’s over. He is no longer a viable NBA player. I understand his shot may be off because of a rhythm thing. But that’s the only excuse I can make for him.
Needz more Hickson. We’ve already traded two Cy Young winners; may as well dump two “coaches of the year”–how did they EVER win those awards?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Matt (above)-not a bad suggestion, what would it hurt to suit Danny Green up?
November 6th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Z is NOT done…cmon now. He can be very effective off the bench, he’s still the same player. Cmon………don’t go overboard here. Brown needs to realize that Z is now a second unit guy, and quit trying to maximize his minutes.
November 6th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Jack, I do agree that Brown needs to get Hickson a lot more playing time. He should basically play the whole 2nd quarter in my opinion, and maybe the end of the 3rd or beginning of the 4th. We do need him to develop to guard the other athletic 4s in the league. If Z is true to his word about wanting the championship, then I think he’ll be okay with a few games where he doesn’t play more than 8-10 minutes.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:00 am
@23
The answer to Moon not playing isn’t to suit up Danny Green. It’s to give Moon minutes. If Green is active Brown will still probably bury him at the bottom of the bench.
Parker played 30+ minutes yesterday, which is more than he should most nights, and especially on nights when he’s not playing particularly well.
It is astounding to me that the play of Gibson, an undersized 2 that occasionally plays the 1, is taking away minutes from Moon, a 3 that sometimes plays the 4. He should be taking minutes from the 30+ year old Parker than plays his same position, especially with his improved defense. Giving Gibson Moon’s minutes leaves us vulnerable to quick bigs, as evidenced last night.
AMC and Macnip already mentioned my biggest gripes with the double center look: We can’t be playing these aging centers so many minutes this early in the season, and the fact that Mike Brown doesn’t realize this, and further doesn’t realize that it’s not even working (or WHY it’s not working) is troubling.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Isis, you’re right. But he can’t be trying to get him in the game out of respect, or idiocy, or for any other reason.
Suiting up Green would not be a problem. Playing him would be. The problem with Green is that we already are out of rhythm and need to get our backcourt on the same page. Adding another ingredient to the mix may not be the answer right now.
Isis, do you think we need to get JJ more involved?
November 6th, 2009 at 11:11 am
@ 28 – I agree, we need to play Moon more and see what he can do.
As crappy as Wally and Big Ben were, there was obviously chemistry last year that we aren’t seeing/feeling yet… so far.
I don’t know who to blame – do you blame the coach for not figuring out rotations to get them comfortable in games and for not running practices efficiently? Do you blame the players? Do you blame Delonte’s distractions? Some/all of the foregoing? I just don’t know enough about building chemistry in b-ball to find an answer.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:15 am
@30 – All of the above.
Delonte was the glue last year. The glue is a bit watered down at the moment, understandably so.
Last year there was a honeymoon period. No one knew what to expect. Mo played well. Delonte starting. Look at them go. Less pressure on Lebron. Exciting.
Then…they had their hearts broken. Lebron doesn’t look as excited this year. I think he’s turned off by the challenge. Kobe sure as hell didn’t come out of the gates like this after they lost in the finals. This team never stands up in adverse moments. They seem to sulk. But as long as everything is going well, it’s all smiles.
I really think they are their own fair-weather fans.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Oh, yeah, and that Coach of the Year guy…
November 6th, 2009 at 11:19 am
I am with Isis. Z isn’t done, but he needs some time to get comfortable coming off the bench. His stroke will come back and he will be fine shooting on those pick and pops. He just is in a cold shooting streak right now.
Also, whoever was talking about the athletic bigs out-rebounding Shaq and Z was spot on. Ideally it would be great if Hickson and Andy could play together. Hickson looked overwhelmed last night, so I don’t totally blame Brown for bailing on him last night.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Another FAIL feather in Mike Brown’s cap is his inability to develop young talent. With how he’s brought Hickson along the last two seasons there’s no way Danny Green is going to get any shot at contributing.
November 6th, 2009 at 11:34 am
#31 – Right on. My biggest concern on a broad level is the lack of intensity and energy from everyone, including LeBron. In fact, LeBron deserves the brunt of the blame. If he’s not excited, these guys aren’t gonna be excited. Bottom line.
#34 – It sure looks that Mike Brown has Wedge syndrome here. He doesn’t seem to be developing our young talent. Hell, developing would be a start – most of them don’t even get a chance at all!
November 6th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Any chance we can meet with the owner and GM?
November 6th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Mike brown will be gone by the all star break. Book it.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Late to the party here, but here’s what i saw last night: The Cavs fiddled and faddled, waiting around to make a move, but a one-possession move with ten seconds left is too unreliable.
They showed nice movement on offense it times, with patterns of movement out and around the key. it was nice to see them move off the ball, but it was not nice that this active offense resulted in 22 foot jumpers.
If Shaq could ever remember how to spin baseline, he could still put up 35.
With Lebron out, they still looked focused and cohesive for a few minutes in the fourth.
It’s always a fun moment when someone drives into Shaqs house and gets eaten up.
Mike Brown is still experimenting and I don’t think it’s the end of the world.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“It’s always a fun moment when someone drives into Shaqs house and gets eaten up.”- Couldn’t agree more. Thus far, I’ve enjoyed watching Shaq destroy guys who get sucked into his gravitational pull. It’s fun to just watch guys get laid out and how little effort it takes from Shaq’s side.
November 6th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Does Mike Brown understand matchups? He doesn’t know when to use the “Two Towers” lineup correctly. Why the heck would any coach use Shaq and Z together against a small lineup like the Bulls (or against Toronto)? What is Mike Brown doing????
November 6th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Mike, Mike, Mike… you’re making me agree with Charles, and I HATE agreeing with Charles. STOP with the twin towers. For god’s sake. jeez. You’re killing us.
Is it too late to get an offensive minded coach like Kuestner? Not sure of the deadlines for such things. Anyone know?
November 6th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
@ 38 – It’s not the end of the world. I wouldn’t even be worried about a 3-3 start necessarily.
BUT, the key thing for me, is the apparently lackadaisical attitude of everyone, LeBron included, out there. I want to see more energy and intensity, even in losses. It was like we just realized with 2 minutes to go that we were about to lose and started playing hard.
Yes, I know, we went “small” at that point and could run more, but still… there was just no sense of urgency or intensity out there the whole game. It even rubbed off on me. I found myself, usually a passionate armchair fan, just kinda sitting back and taking it in with my buddies. That’s not good.
November 6th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
It’s a very long season. 3-3 isn’t ideal. But if we can learn from our mistakes come playoff time. I’ll accept those mistakes early rather than late. Tonight v.s. the Knicks.. I usually work during every game.. occasionally I have the night off. Tonight I do and I’m ecstatic. Not only b/c LBJ seems to put up gigantic numbers in MSG. But if we demolish this Knicks team, maybe that would help LBJ see just how far away that team is from contention and how close his team is to greatness.
November 6th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Hey guys… I’m an Ohio native and cavs fan who now lives in Los Angeles.
I’m very dissapointed with how the Cavs have been playing, but especially the way that Mike Brown has been coaching during games.
I think that whether Mike Brown stays or is fired, depends on whether he can get things together before January, but I think as importantly, Lebron’s feeling of happiness or unhappiness.
I think that given the choice of losing Lebron or Mike Brown, Danny Ferry and the Cavs owner will replace Brown.
I can imagine that Ferry and the Cavs owner are already keeping their ears open with Lebron, and trying to get a sense of what he wants and what his input is.
I know that there were issues in pre-season, but a coach’s job is to motivate and get his team ready when the chips are down.
I am sure that Ferry is contemplating some of the same thoughts thay we are.
I wonder if Danny has considered taking over as coach?
November 6th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Its the same old crap, just a different roster. The Cavs are still, after 6 years, one player away from being competitive. Shaq just replaced Z, another slow big. Mo is great at point, Delonte is great at the 2. We all know Lebron holds his own. But yet again, for another year, we are missing a solid 4. Even another star caliber 3 would be nice to mix up the rotations with Lebron.
In an ideal world, Andy is coming off the bench with Moon, Parker, and Z. We have a roster with 3 starters, and two bench players. That is why we get crushed when our starters sit.
I say it now, and I’ll stand by it until the last game. The Cavs will not make it past the 1st round unless Ferry makes a trade within the next 2 weeks. Giving the new addition time to acclimate before the second part of the season. All of you talking about Leon Powe…he isn’t guaranteed. he is a bonus if it works out. He is a non factor now, and you have to treat him that way when he comes back. We need one more bench player, and a 4. Or this team is done, and Lebron is living on Park avenue.
November 6th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
All the people looking for solutions within the team are driving me crazy…..the answer is out there on another team. There are actually 2 answers out there…..get them and do it now.
November 6th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
It’s not helping them Mike, It’s hurting them.
November 6th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
They will improve. They could not have played any worse last night.
Also, when did the Cavs become so hated by the rest of the league? Every team’s fans has an ax to grind with LeBron/Mike Brown/Clevelanders. I don’t understand it – there are plenty of thuggish teams, the Cavs aren’t one of them. Yet every single message board/chat/whatever just has thousands of people spewing hate at the Cavs.
November 7th, 2009 at 10:31 am
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