The WFNY email Conversation: Cavs Chatter
As we have described to you before, many of our best ideas for columns start in long-winded group email conversations. Sometimes these chats become post-worthy in themselves, like this one did. Not only was it interesting fodder, but it also gives you, our loyal readers, some insight into our crazy day to day world (all while trying to work at our regular, paying jobs). This particular one was spawned by Anderson Varejao getting absolutely posterized by Dwayne Wade during last night’s Cavs win in Miami.
Rick: Anyone wanna start andyvarejaoneedsahug.com?
Rock: I was furious with Andy last night. Yes, it was extremely embarrassing, but he’s not the first to be dunked on and he won’t be the last. There’s no reason to start jawing with Wade after the fact. What could he have possibly been saying to him anyway?
TD: I actually liked it. Sure, he got shown up and looked like a clown whining to Wade, but great teams need an agitator like that from time to time. i.e. Rodman in Chicago, Laimbeer in Detroit.
Rock: I think if that’s the case, he should have done as soon as he got dunked on. Not wait until 5 minutes later to do it. It just rubbed me the wrong way.
Rick: I will say this, the team chemistry has most certainly changed. Remember the whole,everybody helps a teammate up thing? Yeah, that’s gone this year.
TD: exactly what did that get us last year? If we could do it all over again, we’d have traded Wally’s contract in a heartbeat at the deadline, knowing what we know now.
Rock: Not to mention even LeBron was clowning Andy when they asked him about the dunk at halftime. I was disappointed in LeBron’s answer, to be honest.
TD: He was being too diplomatic and looking out for his friend. That is the new NBA though. These guys are all friends. The bad blood is at a minimum. It certainly isn’t the old days.
Rick: Back in my day Wade would have gotten a beat down by a T-Rex bone.
Rock: True, but the Cavs didn’t lose because of their chemistry, they lost in spite of their chemistry. In Bill Simmons’ new book, the 2nd chapter is about what’s known as The Secret, and it’s all about how NBA Champions need a certain kind of chemistry to win a title, and there have been precious few exceptions to that rule. Yes, you of course have to have a lot of talent, but you can’t win on talent alone.
DP: You don’t need talent. Just character.
/Mangini’d
Brendan: I said the same thing watching the game last night Rick…each game just seems like a pressure cooker for the team and they seem pretty irritable and on edge. They are definitely not having the same sort of “fun out there” and goofing off together like kids as they did all last year. Do we need Favre?
Rock: You can’t force chemistry. There are 5 new guys on this team (counting Powe), one massive personality in Shaq, and then you have the Delonte issues which I know are weighing on this team. I’m starting to wonder if it wouldn’t be best to deactivate him for the season just so the team doesn’t have to keep dealing with this active/inactive bs. It’s hard to develop consistent flow and chemistry when your 2nd most important player is sometimes there, sometimes not.
Anyway, not to be too down on this team, though, because they are actually playing some pretty good offense these days. They’re finally going to Shaq early in games, which I love, and then rather than having 3 other guys on the strong side with Shaq, they’re moving everyone to the weak side with a lot of motion behind the play. The defenses aren’t adjusting to this and Shaq is setting up guys with really good looks. The Cavs are moving the ball great and with the exception of 4th quarters, LeBron isn’t slowing down the offense. These are all very positive signs.
Craig: I also think Delonte’s struggles could have a lot to do with it.
TD: I agree. I also think from the things we have read over the past two days that they are truly “moving on” from thinking he is going to be around.
Moon was GREAT last night. That was the exact kind of game you want from him.
Rick: Delonte’s struggles are hurting the team because Anthony Parker was not mean to guard D Wade for 30 minutes.
Rock: If Hickson is playing well, having him, LeBron, and Moon out there together is a really nice lineup from a pure athleticism standpoint. The Cavs don’t run much, but with those 3 plus Mo in the open court, they can do a lot of damage. If Hickson is for real (and I’m not saying he is, yet), that’s going to be enormous for this team. For instance, last night in the 4th when Miami put Wade back in, Mike Brown had enough confidence in his guys to keep LeBron on the bench a little bit longer. With LeBron on the bench, the Cavs were actually running sets for JJ. It was crazy, but it worked, and thus down the stretch LeBron seemed to have more energy than Wade did. Not that Wade is a great 3 pt shooter to begin with, but he was really pushing the ball with his arms on those shots, as he seemed to have no legs under him. Mike Brown coached a hell of a game last night, IMO.
Rick: I’ll say this about Mike Brown this year- starting Hickson was a gutsy move. And it really wasn’t a move anyone could see coming.
Rock: The Cavs can’t trade Z until Powe is back, and I don’t want Stephen Jackson’s contract anyway, but with the way Z is struggling, that deal looks a little more appealing without having Delonte around. I totally agree, we’re asking Parker to do something we didn’t bring him here to do, and it’s the one thing that is really standing out to me right now from a negative standpoint. So I wonder, what other SGs will be out there for Ferry to try to acquire?
TD: Agreed on Hickson. Starting him seems to have done wonders for his confidence. That said, last night’;s opponent was right up his alley. They play so small (Beasley isnt a true PF) and that fed right into his game. Same with Orlando unless they are putting Gortat and Howard next to each other. He has truly become the X factor.
That Miami roster is garbage. Shows you how good D Wade really is.
Rick: There is always the Gerald Wallace rumor to start up again…
I think he is better at the small forward, but he can certainly play the 2.
TD: I completely agree, Rock. I was thinking the same thing last night. If Z’s shot isn’t falling, he is worthless. He is looking slower than ever too. I would love to have Captain Jack on this team. Bad contract or not, LBJ can play more PF and it gives us another top defender and top shooter. Would it block Hickson’s development? Sure. But I am all about the now.
Rock: If he’s the best the Cavs can get, then so be it. But if I’m Danny Ferry, I’m making sure there aren’t other options out there with more favorable contract.
Rick: Garbage? I have to disagree with you there TD…
TD: name me, other than Beasley and Chalmers, who you like on that team? Haslem maybe. Q Richardson? garbage. Jermaine O’Neal is finished. He can barely move. Daequon Cook and Dorell Wright? I’ll pass. Joel Anthony? please. Carlos Arroyo? He is a journeyman. James Jones and Jamal Magloire? Garbage and Garbage.
Rick: O’Neal can barely move?? Did you watch that game last night? Beasley, Chalmers and Wade make a pretty good 1-2-3 punch. O’Neal could win comeback player of the year. (do they even have that award in the NBA?) O’Neal should still be playing the 4 though, he isn’t a center.
TD: Rick – he looked good to you? He is at the end of his rope. Not like Z, but not half the player he was. I’d take him off of our bench, but he is no longer a high quality starter in the league.
Rick: He looked a lot better than he did last year. Again, he shouldn’t be guarding Shaq. That is ridiculous, but he would give most PFs in this league fits.
TD: Lets see how long that lasts. he has become the Bob Sanders of the NBA. Never plays a full season. The most games he has played in the past five seasons is 68.
Brendan: I know it is an incredible long shot and I have not looked at the numbers but is Rudy Gay realistic at all? I saw a few people writing last week that he may be available and the Grizzlies will not extend him. This would obviously be an ultimate game changer but I dismissed it as fantasy.
Rock: People are assuming that because the Grizzlies didn’t extend his contract that they’re going to trade him. I’m not sure that’s the case, but boy would I freaking LOVE having him on the Cavaliers. However, what would the Cavaliers have to give up to get him? The Grizzlies aren’t likely to let themselves get swindled again for a bunch of trash and expiring contracts.
TD: Rudy Gay? where do I sign up. He is what we could only dream Hickson could be, and he can shoot from deep.
AP Photo/Lynne Sladky
November 13th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
“Rudy Gay? where do I sign up. He is what we could only dream Hickson could be, and he can shoot from deep”
I wouldn’t hold that against JJ since Gay was picked 8th (and many thought he was a steal at
and JJ was picked 19th (and many thought that was a reach).
November 13th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
sorry about the smiley face there, I’m not sure how I even did that.
November 13th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
The Heineken proposal commercial came on during the game last night and it took me back to the Cavs shoes version… it almost felt nostalgic it seems so long ago. The fun chemistry was so evident last year and I was partly excited about the Shaquisition because I thought he would only take it to a new level. Hopefully it will come around and there will be more pregame, post-practice, and 4th quarter bench antics that the media can cover instead of LBJ speculation.
November 13th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
“[E]xactly what did [chemistry] get us last year? If we could do it all over again, we’d have traded Wally’s contract in a heartbeat at the deadline, knowing what we know now.”
hear! hear!
November 13th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
i really disagree about the talent on miami’s roster. in fact, i think they’re loaded, albeit young. They’re loaded 1-4 on the floor. O’Neal is a shade of his former self but if he’s on – he’s ON. Beasley and Wade were both top-5 draft picks. Cook has become deadly from range. Chalmers is a calm point presence who can play defense (when he wants to ). Udonis Haslem is very threatening from 18-feet and in. Miami is fast, agile, and young (except for O’Neal who is only about 31). They lack depth but they’re not garbage. Not at 6-2 on the year.
November 13th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Last year showed that the best regular season record and the best team chemistry doesn’t even guarantee you extra hot sauce in your bag. I think this team – the players and coaches – are still getting used to each other. Thanks to Bron’s “What fans want me on their team next season the most” world tour and “Nash…er, Shaq vs,” the team only really came together right before the preseason. With all the new blood, it’s gonna take some time before you see what they can really do together…and I think we just started to see it these past 2 nights. Hopefully they will start having fun like they did last year, because they did play better when they were enjoying themselves, and it obviously makes it more enjoyable for us, the fans. But in the end, I think they realize that there is just more to winning a championship than taking a fake picture before the game, going to a fake Kinko’s after the game to get it printed out, and hanging an empty frame with the fake picture in it on your wall.
Regarding trades, I truly love Z as much as the next true Cavs fan, but even John Hollinger of that 4-letter website painfully admitted – he looks finished. Maybe starting will help, maybe it won’t. But can he really be considered “untradable” just because what he means to us? Like I said, I love him, but I would love a ring with out him more than another lost season with him (obviously I would love to trade him, have him get bought out and return to us and then win a ring most of all). And as far as him being “Shaq injury insurance,” unless starting really did bring back Z circa last year, we almost might be better off playing Andy + JJ. If the right deal presented itself, you can’t just shoot it down because it’s Z. I’m not sure SJax is the right deal, and hopefully Ferry waits it out to see what other options open up down the road, and I think he is smart enough to do just that. We obviously aren’t in desperation/panic mode now, if we ever were.
Other than SJax and Gay, what other remote possibilities might there be?
November 13th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Simmons some time ago said Rudy Gay would be this years Pau Gasol. Lets hope hes right and the Cavs can put together a package to get him. What that package would be who knows. Judging by what the Grizzlies took from LA for Gasol I would guess a package of Hickson (if he keeps staring and improving), a first round pick and someone else?
November 13th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I think this team may not be having fun like last year because maybe they realize it’s time to get down to business. Delonte is weighing on them, all the LBJ talk HAD to be affecting them and their first few games were pretty miserable defensively. They’re starting to come around though. I think Shaq has a lot he can teach Hickson, just from a pure X’s O’s standpoint.
Mike Brown has got to be given credit for moving Hickson into the lineup and for adjusting the offense. Mo running this offense and not LBJ is how we’re going to win. Shaq has to be the 3rd option here, it’s how it’ll work.
The S-Jax trade is one we need to make, but closer to the deadline. We aren’t going to have any cap for a few years any way.
LBJ extension: $21M/yr for the next 3 years at least
Mo: $9M for 2 more years, he’ll be 28 and they’ll re-sign him to a similar deal
Andy: $7M for the next 4 seasons
Boobie: $4M for the next 3 (?) years
Hickson: He’s on a rookie deal now but will get paid in a year or two I believe
Parker: (from what I could find) around $3M for the next 3 years.
Delonte: $4M for at least 3 more years.
That’s at least around $52M BEFORE resigning Shaq. We aren’t going to be able to sign ANYONE as good as Jax for $1M and don’t really have expiring deals to use in trades, except Z’s. Jax is a GREAT defender, can run the PG spot, rebounds, shoots and assists very well, and he LOVES Mike Brown. Those 2 have a great relationship. There’s 2 guys on this team better than Jax that can keep him in check. His deal will run out at a good time for us when Parker and Boobie’s and Delonte’s and Andy’s deals start to run out too. We should add this piece before it slips away. BUT, not before the deadline time. They would need to send someone back to us in the trade, someone like Ronny Turiaf would be a good bench addition for us.
Also, Z will get cut by GS, they just don’t need him at all, and if they wait till around the deadline then that’s when Powe will be coming back, they can play LBJ more at the 4 with Hickson playing well Andy can play C. Z could rejoin us after the 30 day wait period. We need to get it done.
November 13th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
completely agree with s-dub. if that trade doesn’t go through I say we consider going after micheal redd. I know he is injury prone but he is a free agent at the end of the season. Besides, having redd as a 4th option would be pretty ridiculous
November 13th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I felt the same way Fern. I saw the commercial and just thought of Delonte yelling when he got his shoes.
I feel the same way about Z as most others. Up until this year, I was against trading Z, but he has looked nothing like the Z of the past few years (I’m sure not starting has a little to do with that). I don’t want the Cavs to make the first deal (SJax) that comes along. Be patient and something will come along. Would love Rudy Gay, just don’t know what we’d have to give up to get him.
I haven’t heard anything about this, but there were rumors last year about getting Gerald Wallace and I would love that move. He has length and size to defend the stretch forwards, but can also defend any guard in the league. Not to mention he’s trying to be the smallest guy to win the Rebounding Crown since Dennis Rodman (can’t remember where I heard that). I may be dreaming, but the Bobcats seem to always be trying to cut salary, so may be possible.
November 13th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
The fact that they aren’t goofing off and having as much fun is fine with me. You think about some of the great teams (Bulls w/Jordan, Lakers w/ Shaq & Kobe) they weren’t out there giggling with each other. In fact, I’m pretty sure most of them hated each other. Frankly, I’d rather them play with a little edge. Let Andy lay there for a second after getting flushed on…maybe next time he’ll lay the guy out that comes into the lane. I liked that Andy was mad after it happened. Lesson learned maybe. The Cavs need to have that killer instinct because they surely didn’t have it last year.
Despite what any of them say I think the pressure of dropping these games is getting to them and it’s showing now that they’ve decided to start playing for real. The clippings on how they are overrated and maybe the 3rd/4th or 5th best team in the league may also be getting to them. Add in Delonte’s deal and it’s easy to see why they may not be out there messing around.
November 13th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Not to buy into the 2010 propaganda, but how would trading for someone who has a multiyear contract affect our chances to give another max contract to someone like Bosh? I haven’t looked at any of the numbers, just speculating.
November 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
@Scotty: Even if LBJ leaves and we renounce the rights to Z, Shaq, and LBJ we are only $4M under the cap.
November 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I’m pretty sure the team wasn’t clowing around during the third week of last season either. It’s really, really early folks. We haven’t even gotten to Shaq’s first injury of the season.
How about we wait a month before we start comparing this season to last season?
November 13th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
@13, So you’re telling me theres a chance?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA
November 13th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Where is all the “not having fun” talk coming from? Did you see the bench’s response after LeBron hit that 3 once Miami got within 4 points in the 4th quarter on a D-Wade drive? The guys who have been on the team for a while (Hickson, Boobie, Mo, etc) were all pumped up and smiling and laughing. They’re still doing the whole “group picture” thing before the games. I mean, Shaq isn’t joining in, but I wouldn’t expect him to. He’s an old man on a team of young guys, and maybe he will join in the longer he is on the team… who knows. I was just surprised… the reason the bench isn’t crowding together and pushing each other around for fun is because the league put a rule in place this year saying bench players have to stay seated (because people were complaining about paying for pricey seats and not being able to see). This team is still tight and having fun together.
Anyway, enough of that rant. How good was Hickson last night? Man would I love to see that on a nightly basis. He got his usual sneak-in-for-a-dunk points, but he also had some very nice post moves, and his defense was acceptable. I think starting Hickson is going to pay off, and you have to wonder if it happened at LeBron’s request. Also, LBJ has a huge input in the players Danny Ferry brings in, so I’d be surprised to see Hickson included in a trade after LeBron decided to take him under his wing this past summer. I guess we need to wait and see which teams are sellers to know if there is a deal that can be made for Z’s expiring contract. My only thought for why we might not trade Z is that 7′0″ centers (in this case 7′3″) are a rare commodity in the NBA and teams are always very reluctant to move them. Having 3 guys who are near 7′0″ tall would be good against the Lakers. I would think we’d want to start Andy against Pau and Shaq against Bynum, then bring Z off the bench to guard Mbenga. The Lakers are the only team I can think of where I’d want Hickson sitting to start the game in favor of Andy.
November 13th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
@S-Dub, I don’t know NBA contract negotiations very well, but would Ferry look to restructure some contracts and back-load a few? I am not sure if you can do that in the NBA like you can in baseball. Also, would it be worth it to take the salary cap hit in order to keep LeBron on the team and keep playing for championships?
November 13th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
With the SJax trade, does anyone know if there were any other pieces from G.S. involved? I thought I heard something about Turiaf being involved, but not certain about that. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t mind another big body b/c Turiaf is a hustle guy similar to that of Andy.
November 13th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
@ #17: He could re-negotiate the contracts but it’s not like football where it’s easy to just back load the contract. A very rare occurrence, I think it has something to do with the CBA. And we’re already WAY over the cap and will continue to be for the next few years, with no expiring deals coming in site. Obviously, we plan on keeping LBJ and there’s no way to work his max-deal so that it’s back loaded or anything, at least not that I’m aware of.
@Oppie: Jax makes $8M/yr for the next few years. Z is at $11M and since we’re over the cap they would have to give us another piece. I doubt they’d send us a Brandon Wright or one of their good pieces. They could probably send us Turiaf because it would rid them of yet another contract and slash Z’s off the books as well, saving them a ton of money. But, we get Jax and a version of Andy that’s shorter but wider. Then hopefully Z gets cut and comes back.
November 13th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Rock – it’s interesting that you bring up Simmons’ book at his point about “The Secret.” I’ve read that part as well, and he even mentions the 2009 Cavs, who were playing at the time he was writing it. The point of “The Secret” is the idea that the individual team members put their individual goals aside for the good of the team. Good team chemistry, like last year’s team, is an obvious indicator that teammates are doing that, though I don’t believe it’s necessary for a team to be a championship contender. Clearly this team is more business like this year, but I believe that everything they’re doing is for the good of the team.
November 13th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Look, I want on-court chemistry. We have made enormous strides in that department the last two games.
I for one don’t want to see everybody screwing around on the bench and dancing around. I want to see wins. All that garbage went to their heads last year and then next thing they knew, a little adversity killed ‘em. Screw around in the lineup intros or post game, maybe a bit, but don’t sit there and mess around the whole game.
I want focused intensity and lots of great team play. I can and hope I do without all the antics and hotdogging
November 13th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Keeping Wally past the deadline last year was more a function of the Suns pulling the plug on the Shaq trade and trying to make the playoffs than it was team chemistry.
@SDub
Do you really think we’re resigning Shaq? I’m very skeptical about that. He’s like 37 this year and even if helps us win a title we lose Z to retirement I’d still hesitate about bringing him back on an extended contract.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
If we don’t re-sign Shaq we still don’t have any money to give to a Center. What are they gonna re-sign Z and start him? Andy and JJ could start next year but we have no bench. Unless they gave the full mid-level to someone.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
The Cavs front court for next year is going to be built through whatever we can get for Z this year, the draft and the MLE. I think Andy will be our 5, JJ our 4 with Powe and someone else backing them up. Shaq wants the max and at his age that’s too much to spend. That’s why I cringe at all this S-Jax talk. Why do we want to waste Z’s contract on a position we don’t have such a need for? Another option that is still out there is a sign and trade for Wally.
November 13th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Wow at the Rudy Gay love. He has had a TERRIBLE CAREER so far. Horribly inefficient, can’t pass, can’t shoot, and his a locker room cancer according to some sources.
You guys are way off with a lot of points here.
Z is not HORRIBLE when he can’t shoot. He gets rebounds and he’s not a bad defensive player around the hoop as long as he isn’t guarding Dwight Howard. It’s not easy to come off the bench when you’ve been a starter your entire career. Give Z some time to get adjusted.
You talk about bringing in S Jax so LeBron can play the 4. Well, LeBron’s not playing ANY 4 this year. And Jamario Moon IS a 3, yet the Cavs are almost never going to a lineup with Mo, Parker, Moon, LeBron, Andy – which I had hoped early in the season they would. So why would Mike Brown do anything different with S Jax? I like him and think he would be a nice addition, but I think the Cavs need to really evaluate their own team for the next 3 months before making any moves. If Hickson keeps improving them we might want to look at a SG, but if he can’t figure out how to defend we might need to pick up a Stretch 4 at the trade deadline with Z’s contract.
November 13th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
@13, that is the scariest thing I’ve seen all day. If we lose LBJ, we have no chance at adding any legit pieces next year. Where is all our 2010 $ tied up, outside of Mo who is making any real money on this squad..
November 13th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
How the hell did Rudy Gay get compared to Hickson?
November 13th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
And why the hell do people like Gerald Wallace? He is somewhere between Jamario Moon and Richard Jefferson. We need a shooting guard (who can shoot) or a shooting stretch forward.
Gerald Wallace would be ABYSMAL for this team. No piece could be as detrimental.
November 13th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
@SDub – where are you getting your figures?
without LeBron, we would have $17mil open at a $50mil cap. If it is at $53mil (current projections), then we would have $20mil open.
with LeBron (which is what we all hope) is where we have little to no $$$ under the cap and why we need to trade to improve rather than hope to hit the FA market this summer.
figures from: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm
November 13th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
I was saying that NEXT free agency we can only re-sign LBJ and not add more than that. IF we don’t re-sign him, we’ll have about $18M to play with. That’s not going to get a franchise guy to come here when LBJ leaves. We saw it when he was here with Hughes.
W/O Shaq and Z (because we wouldn’t wanna re-sign w/o LBJ anyway) we’re going to need to sign some bigs, and probably someone around $10M if LBJ did leave. That doesn’t leave us with much.
I firmly believe LBJ will opt out this year, he’ll sign his max deal for 3 years, making I believe about $21M/yr. That means in 11/12 we’d have a $45M payroll, so that would afford about $8M in space, not counting any players we pick up next off season, draft picks, or any mid level usage.
The point I was making was that with LBJ’s deal on the books we aren’t afforded a lot of money to make any major moves, and without his deal we won’t be able to add a player to fill his shoes without filling in the rest of the roster with decent players. That’s why we should make the Jax trade, or at least use Z’s contract to get us a quality player who will be around a few years until some of those deals can clear off our books.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Resign Lebron
Let Z retire
Let Shaq loose
Sign a big name guard
Move Lebron to the 4
Let Andy start at C
Run the floor
Score 130 points
Win games.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
lose to orlando
lose to LA