Holmgren’s Hire Probably Means Mangini Is Gone
Written By: Craig Lyndall | Category: Cleveland Browns | Comments: 60
Let me just say first and foremost that this will not be a Mangini hatchet job. Then again, it also won’t be written with the evangelistic zeal of one of the many glowing pieces over at Cleveland Frowns. Frowns knows I am joking with him. I am not a Mangini hater through and through or anything like that. Still, I think it is time to face the facts of the situation now that Mike Holmgren has officially been hired as the President of the Cleveland Browns.
Before we get too far, I want to say a few things about Mangini. First of all, I don’t think a single year is a good enough time period to get a feel for a head coach. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that Mangini had to break this team up this year. I don’t know how this Browns team could have carried on with either Kellen Winslow or Braylon Edwards. Those unavoidable trades certainly hurt Mangini’s chances at early success and popularity. In addition, I agree with Mangini’s approach to training camp and practice when a team is as far behind as the Browns were early on in the season. As Terry Pluto has pointed out on multiple occasions, Mangini’s “opportunity” sessions after practice were cleared of any wrongdoing.
Then again, Mangini has done his fair share of things to sink his own ship. Regardless of the circumstances of Kokinis not working out, Mangini didn’t shine as he stepped into the dual role of coach and personnel manager. I was a big fan of a lot of the depth-building moves early on. I was a big fan of trading down out of the Mark Sanchez pick. At the same time, Mangini has made his fair share of mistakes including the handling of the QB situation, his inability to see that Jamal Lewis was officially past his useful playing days, among other things.
None of that really matters, though. I think a reasonable argument can be made either way that Mangini should stay or go. When you line up the positives and negatives, it will be your personal interpretation as to which way the scales ultimately sway. I see a bit of both sides. I recognize many of Mangini’s faults, but I also see some of what he has brought to the table. I do find it a bit suspect that he has had such a difficult time making himself look good on the heels of Romeo Crennel. I also agree with many who think that the media in general likes to smash Mangini because, as John Candy said in Planes, Trains and Automobiles, “I’m an easy target.” I think Mangini might be able to make a case for himself to another football guy who understands the dynamics of working in the NFL.
Ultimately though, I can’t see Mike Holmgren keeping Mangini around even if he might empathize with him over the fact that any coach needs more than a single season to prove their mettle. Mangini really doesn’t make a lot of sense for Holmgren. Mike Holmgren comes into this Browns situation with the same need to produce results that Mangini came into a year ago. Mike Holmgren will do absolutely everything he can to turn the Browns around the best way he thinks he can. Unfortunately for Eric Mangini, I don’t think that process will include a guy from the Belichick tree that likes to run the 3-4 instead of Holmgren’s preferred 4-3. Think about it. Mangini is a defensive specialist. Is he really going to coach a team in a different defensive philosophy? And do you really think Mike Holmgren is going to take the very foundations that earned him this job with the Browns and cast them aside to take a chance on an unpopular coach with differing philosophies? Right, wrong or indifferent, fair or unfair to Mangini, I just don’t see it happening.
And I am not just another Mangini basher trying to sit here and tell you that Mangini “sux and needz to go like yesterday!” In some senses, I think Mangini is a victim of circumstance. Eric Mangini might have been a wild success this year introducing his discipline and renewed commitment to practice if he had a great team president and GM helping him. With a real GM Mangini probably could have added better personnel than just the Jets retreads. Maybe they could have done better reshaping the right side of the offensive line. Maybe they could have done better than Hank Poteat doing Terry Cousin impressions all year long. Maybe they could have had quicker success from their second round picks. And maybe the combination of a real GM and team president could have helped him with the QB decision and giving him the organizational credibility to dump a locker room presence like Jamal Lewis sooner.
It is my opinion that we won’t get to see that from Mangini as a member of the Browns. I am guessing that Holmgren will do exit interviews this season and give Mangini a chance to pitch to keep his job. At the end of the day, I just don’t see it happening. They both have similar goals in turning around the Browns, but I just don’t see Mike Holmgren leaving anything to chance with a guy that he didn’t bring into the organization who doesn’t fit his overall philosophy like a glove. Again, just conjecture on my part at this point.
Author: CraigLyndall
Craig Lyndall has been writing about all the Cleveland sports teams at WaitingForNextYear since September 2008. When he isn't, you can find him selling insurance or playing music. Follow WFNYCraig on Twitter.Craig Lyndall has written 433 articles for Waiting for Next Year.
The guy played crap players all year long, and one of the comments on the Holmgren Hired news story here that I think sums it up best was this: You can bet your bottom dollar that Jamal Lewis would be starting next Sunday if he could after Harrison ran all over the place.
The guy is an egomaniac with no ability to adjust or admit past mistakes. He’s GOT to go. Screw the supposed “system.” Get him the hell outta here. There’s an argument to be made for stability, certainly, on a neutral basis at least. But, there’s no way we can afford to let the specter of playing under this buffoon cloud an offseason where we could really score in the free agent market…
you took the words right out of my mouth man. I, like you, now think that Mangini deserves his shot to build a team. But with Holmgrens philosophy I don’t see that happening with the Browns
Good analysis… I think that the last point about The Walrus taking a chance on a guy he didn’t hire is the most important. No way Holmgren can keep him. I think the new broom has to sweep clean.
BTW, good, balanced write-up Craig. However, whose fault is it that he didn’t have a “real GM” helping him? Oh, the egomaniac himself, Mangini
@Matt, I think Lerner has to take some of the heat for that. Mangini didn’t hire himself and then give himself the option of hiring his own GM recommendation.
I had a Seattle fan (whose opinions about such matters I truly respect) tell me that he thought that Holmgren and Mangini could be a good combination working together (as long as Mike has the final say). Of course, he didn’t elaborate any more because this was via text as he was congratulating me for the Holmgren hire
bcoz
agreed
The statement that I have the biggest problem with here is: “Mangini really doesn’t make a lot of sense for Holmgren,” because I think Mangini makes a ton of sense for Holmgren.
My official welcome letter to Holmgren will be posted tomorrow. There’s a roundup of Holmgren analysis posted there now.
Thanks for the shout.
I also think Mangini and Holmgren could do very well together, fwiw.
I won’t even necessarily be upset if I am wrong. I just don’t think I am wrong.
Mangini sux, needz to go like, last week.
/fixed.
Keep Mangini. You can’t punish the son for sins of the father. To unload K2 and Braylon were tough but solid moves, and were quite unpopular. Jamal Lewis was busting his ass, Harrison was dogging it in practice, so it was tough to get The Ghost out there. Both QB’s have been weak. Making Robo earn his playing time is going to teach guys draft picks mean nothing. Shoot, even making Cribbs sweat out another year in his 6-year deal was a good – and tough – move.
We beat the Steelers and the team is playing hard. He doesn’t have a blank slate. He screwed up the rookie bus trip, the bromance with Kokinis and being a loner all could have been handled better. But the team is willing to lay it on the line. Let’s give him a chance.
Completely disagree regarding the Jamal Lewis drama. That was a “no-win” situation.
It would have been a “no-win” until a different running back started putting up real numbers and giving the team a chance to win.
Nice article Craig; I’ve been under the same mindset as you this season and really on the fence with Mangini and was willing to give him this year to see what happens. Personally, I don’t mind if Mangini stays or goes but at this point I will now back whatever Holmgren or his potentially appointed GM (I’m going with that in hopes he hires one) decides. In my mind it is their show to run now and the decisions they make are the ones I’ll back.
While I tend to agree with you thesis, the best case I can make for keeping Mangini is actually in your post. “Mike Holmgren comes into this Browns situation with the same need to produce results that Mangini came into a year ago.”
How do I interpret this opposite of your analysis? Simply, a second year in the same system should expectantly produce better results than year 1. If Holmgren and Mangini can find enough common ground initially, then I think the result will be Mangini stick around to get the first year wins that the franchise needs right now to sell tickets.
And with Holmgren’s credibility, it would give Mangini the credibility necessary to stick around another year under our new “strong, credible organizational leader”.
Of course, if the theoretical common ground can’t be found, Holmgren will jettison Mangini quicker than Lerner hired him.
I am assuming the Browns get fined for not following the Rooney Rule on this hiring.
I really have an issue with your first point Craig. Maybe I’m more of a Mangini supporter than the rest, but the idea that Mike Holmgren (as team President) would fire someone simply because they use a different defensive scheme is just silly. People act like 4-3 or 3-4 is the single most defining factor in a coach’s mentality. It is not.
Your second point is much stronger, Craig. Holmgren will have some pressure on him, and it makes sense that he would prefer to win or lose with a coach he hand picks. But contrary to popular opinion, Mangini is not the worst coach in the world; he has had success (to at least some degree) in every position he’s held. I think Holmgren might see some potential in Mangini, and may even prefer him to others that are on the market.
I really don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that Mangini will be joining the ranks of 10.6% Americans next season. Of course, we really don’t know, and won’t know until February for sure. Still, good piece, Craig. I always enjoy your stuff.
Really enjoyed this post. Well-balanced… sound reasoning. Like many, I can see both sides of the debate. In my opinion, if Holmgren thinks “give Mangini one more year and see what happens,” he should just part ways now. That’s not much of a commitment anyway.
And, like you said, why take that chance? Just move on and run this in the way you believe is right.
The real q is if not mangini then who?
I think Eric Mangini’s future is tied to team’s performance for the last two games. After KOKO was let go, it seems the staff and players reverted to the “Hey! We better start playing now or we’ll be gone too.” scenario. So, the last couple of weeks have been eye openers for the fans. Although I don’t have much hope with Mangini, he should be allowed to stay one more year (as should BQ). I do hope Holmgren brings in some much needed help for Staff on offense.
@ #17 – I’m willing to bet that the Fred Nance interview covered more than one job title, so the assumption would probably be incorrect.
@17
doesnt the Rooney Rule only apply for head coaching positions?
i’d like to see mangina stick around and turn into a manginius but at the same time i’d love see holmgren bring in chucky – he grew up a browns fan, he’s a holmgren protege and his dad went to orange.
I’m on board with Craig. I really don’t see Mangini and Holmgren working together. I think they are both control-freak type guys who want the final say on everything for themselves. I think that Holmgren will give Mangini a chance to keep his job, but I ultimately think he will give someone a chance who he can control, or take over things for himself.
Why would Holmgren want to win or lose with his own guy? I think this is a win-win situation for Holmgren to keep Mangini. If he keeps him and the team wins, then he looks like a genius, and what a great team president who was able to put aside philosphical differences (3-4 vs 4-3) for the good of the team. If he brings him back and the team tanks (I mean really tanks, as if it could get much worse) then Homgren fires him after another year or two. The team gave him an appropriate amount of time to make a turnaround, and it didn’t happen. That goes on the coach. But in this scenario, he’s already drafted 1-2 years worth of his guys, he brings in his own coach, and then the pressure is on him to provide results. By keeping Mangini, he eliminates ALL pressure on himself to provide a winning team. By firing Mangini, it becomes his operation from day one, but also every decision made from that point on ultimately comes from him, so any failure after that fire would also be on him. Just a different perspective on what none of us can really know until it happens. It is a great article Craig.
Why does everyone assume that Mangini’s fat contract means nothing to Lerner and Holmgren?
Oh, and he’s got a fat contract. What would that be, $35 million over the next 5 years Lerner would owe? That was just for you Roose
@ rosie – cm’on now, we don’t need to bring people’s girth into the equation…
/caps’d
Great post overall, but I wonder about the significance of the 3-4 over the 4-3. Pittsburgh runs a 3-4 under a head coach who had only ever run the 4-3 before taking the Steelers job. They also have a heck of a D-Coordinator and several Pro Bowlers, but it can certainly be done. I know the situation is different (here it would be the “czar” evaluating talent for a 3-4), but I’m sure Holmgren could hire a GM who was familiar with the system and go from there.
Well, if the Browns do convert to the 4-3 under Holmgren, how happy will Veikune be?
This was a well written article with very good points. I personally believe Mangini knows what hes doing and deserves another year. Its not like he was giving a ton of talent. It takes time to rebuild a team. I don’t know what people were expecting this year anyways.
Who’s to say Mangini wants to stay here? Wasn’t he promised total control? Is that in a contract? Are we going to have to pay Romeo, Mangini and a new coach?
To think of all the money Lerner has wasted on QB’s and Coaches in the last 10 years almost makes me want to throw up.
As to the 3-4/4-3 debate, I dont think it matters. Either way I’ve read rumors saying that Holmgren likes Ryan and he has the best chance of all to keep a job, and Ryan is definitely a 34 defense guy. Outside that its up to Holmgren to decide if there is really a new culture that this team is starting to buy into. It’s tough for me to say from here.
Mangini has definitely made coaching blunders, and I dont think he realizes his mistakes. He would still play a bad veteran over a prospect that has an unknown ceiling (J-Lew over Harrison, Royal over anyone, Poteat over Coye- tho i can see this one since a 6th round pick should prove his playing time). I can’t help but think though that some of the younger guys could have lost a season or half a season to really see if they can be players in this league.
On the other hand, he may have finally changed the culture of this team, and maybe Holmgren/ a new GM can bring in talent that will fit with Mangini. Either way Holmgren should bring in a guy he trusts for GM to start. Then they can decide to start over or pick it up and run with whats here.
I don’t know. Unless he could bring in somebody who has coached with success before, why would you fire mangini? It wouldn’t make sense to get rid of someone who knows how to coach for another inexperienced guy. Mangini doesn’t even run the defense; the head coach is above the 4-3 and the 3-4.
It seems like Holmgren will get a pass for a few years and, unless he could get gruden, I would expect him to let mangini coach. I mean, do any of our problems with him have to do with his coaching?
This article is a load of poop. I can’t really see Holmgren getting rid of Mangini. Holmgren knows what Mangini came into, and knows what he has done to this point. I don’t believe anyone with as much NFL knowledge as Holmgren would fire a coach in this situation. Look for Mangini to be here at least another year, if it still doesn’t work out then look for Holmgren to get a new coach for 2011. Use some common sense when writing, what just cause Mangini runs a 3-4 means Holmgren will can him? I am for Mangini staying another season and will be shocked if Holmgren fires him.
@whipjacka After seeing Parcells hire Tony Sparano, it just makes sense to me that Holmgren would feel comfortable hiring an up and coming coordinator that he can mold in his image as a coach. Holmgren probably isn’t as worried about hiring an inexperienced coach to take over because he knows he can help and mentor with all things related to coaching.
But you might be right. I know this is all speculation.
Holmgren’s first order of business should be to PAY THE MAN!!
I’ve been pretty vocal about keeping Mangini at least another year. Jack basically made my argument for me, Holmgren’s in a win-win to keep him here. Browns win, Holmgren’s a genius. Browns lose, He goes and gets his own guy. Keep Mangini.
Side bar: Is Denny on the WFNY staff just to make smart-ass comments? If so, throw him on the Cribbs bus…PAY DAT MAN!!!
wow Mangini plays the wrongs guys all year, blows the draft big time, does not have support of the locker room, can’t decide on a QB … and you guys say keep him because he beat three lousy teams by a total of less than 20 points … don’t know about you but i want a WINNER in this town …moot point … he is gone, no one starts a new regime without his OWN HANDPICKED GUY. Period. No more having to see the dumb glazed looked of the water boy on the sideline.
@ 20 That is the perfect question, if not Mangini then who? I have heard numerous times on ESPN that the name being tossed around is Marty “We’ll take the wind” Mornhinweg. Thats right, Mornhinweg, the guy who turned down the ball in overtime after winning the coin toss and led the Lions to a 5-27 record. Be careful what you wish for everyone. I would rather have Mangini.
@26 another great reason to keep Mangini for another year.
I strongly believe that the hiring of Holmgren is Randy Lerner’s way of admitting that he messed up last year when he gave Mangini the keys to the castle instead of first hiring a President or GM to assist him with the hiring. Lerner knew that Mangini should have been fired during the Bye but he wasn’t about to make that decision himself and leave the Browns with no GM and no HC with 8 games left on the schedule. I applaud Lerner for finally getting a serious, credible leader. Now he can step out of the spotlight and let Holmgren make the decisions on how to reshape the Browns.
I’m excited about the future again.
Totally disagree.
You did not make a case for Mangini keeping his job because that case can not be made. You did make a case for not firing Mangini, a totally different subject.
Mangini was supposed to be the Head Coach and that was it. We know that was never the case, but that again is a different subject. But mangini will certainly now do nothing more than coach and he has proven that he does not know how to do that.
How many players has he made worse this year? He benched Harrison after rushing for 150+ against the Bengals because he could not block. Rather than teach the player to play he benched him for two weeks and got a guy from the CFL. He has made a good O Line from last year terrible. What happened to Eric Stienbach? He never could figure out a way to use Josh Cribbs in the Offense effectively literally changing the game plan from week to week. He seemed shocked from week to week in the first ten weeks because they were practicing well but could not play well on the field. Did it ever occur to you that you were not prepared after all Eric?
And of course the QBs. I swear when Romeo used a coin toss last year that I would never again see so poor a mismanagement of the most crucial position on the team. But Eric has mishandled the QB situation over and over again. From pre season when he could not make up his mind and therefore the starter did not get to spend time with his receivers developing a relationship on the field. Then he gave his anointed one TEN QUARTERS before changing his mind. Jumping the gun? Yeah, a little. But he would not jump the gun again as Derek Anderson had historic lows at QB rating Eric would not make the change. Finally after changing his QB for the third time this year he has taken the shattered pschye of Brady and again and again only evaluated him by his lack of turnovers! Quinn is so buttoned up on game plan, playing not to lose instead of not to win that he is somehow even less effective.
To sum up, he was a rotten GM. Trades happened at the wrong time every time and we lost rounds in the draft because of him. He drafted a Center, not a position of need 15 picks higher than he should have. His 2d and 4th picks wear a tie on 10 Sundays this year. We know he was a bad GM. But as a coach, what has he done to convince anyone that he deserves even to finish out the season? He is an unmitigated disaster who creates no followership or shared vision as a leader and he will always, always fail until he learns the brutal lesson that it is NOT about the process. It is about the vision and LEADERSHIP that creates a winning culture.
For me, the greatest Mangini-flaws were his nonsensical list of inactives and his complete mishandling of the QB situation.
I liked trading down for mack, I understood getting rid of BE and K2. And I could even understand bringing in 2,000 ex-Jets.
Also, fwiw, I like the 4-3 a lot more than the 3-4. 3-4′s require a LOT of talent on the defensive side of the ball to be successful. The Browns are a talent blackhole in most respects.
Alan,
I might prin that and frame it. I couldn’t agree more. I was just thinking myself that Mangini can throw his “process” out the window now because Holmgren’s “process” is the only one that will matter now.
Nobody really knows if Holmgren and Mangini can work together, but there is considerable incentive on Mangini’s part to make this work. If the Browns fire him, it’s obvious that he won’t get a head coaching job in the NFL again. So if he’s as smart as he thinks he is, he’ll do what he has to do to keep his job.
And while he’s only been here one year, this is Mangini’s fourth year as a head coach, so there is more data to fall back on than just his one year in Cleveland. And with all the losses piling up on his resume, it’s really not as hard of a choice as some people would lead you to believe.
Finally, people are putting entirely too much emphasis on beating Pittsburgh. It’s one win, it doesn’t hold any more value than any other game. It’s that kind of Ohio State mentality – everything’s OK if we beat Michigan – that keeps OSU from actually being a national power. The Browns could get swept by Pittsburgh every year but if they end up winning the Super Bowl I could give two squirts.
“wow Mangini plays the wrongs guys all year”
Because he makes players earn playing time in the practice field?
“blows the draft big time”
if you can obviously tell 14 games later whether the draft was a bust or not, you should be a football executive
“does not have support of the locker room”
And you hang out in the locker room right? Cribbs has publicly supported Mangini and actually gone a step further to say that the locker room is in high spirits.
“can’t decide on a QB”
perhaps neither one of them are any good at this point, and he didn’t want to overpay both of them?
“and you guys say keep him because he beat three lousy teams by a total of less than 20 points”
Football teams are supposed to win games, no?
“don’t know about you but i want a WINNER in this town” But you were just complaining that they won 3 games, including the last two?
“he is gone” – Unless he’s not
“no one starts a new regime without his OWN HANDPICKED GUY.” Unless Holmgren decides to.
“No more having to see the dumb glazed looked of the water boy on the sideline.” Or hopefully having to read baseless comments”
I stated that Mangini could stay if he went 3-13 with noticeable improvements in play at the end of the season or one win against Pittsburgh. He’s technically accomplished both. I only let Mangini go if we can get Jon Gruden. Otherwise, the man probably should get another season…
@40 Andrew S – I heard that last night and almost spit up my dinner. Marty “We’ll take the wind” Mornhinweg and Jim Zorn as QB coach? I think I would rather have Chris Palmer back.
@ Jay – I write articles sometimes too :/
Mangini and team appear, now, to have a hard-fought-for working relationship. They seem upbeat about their recent victories. Why start over-over?
I would think that Holmgren could have worked into his deal the flexibility to further test Mangini’s leadership. I don’t think, for instance, that Mangini-as-coach has already failed.
On the other hand, rebuilding, again, with some “other” head coach could buy another chunk of time from a sufficient swath of fans.
Holmgren would, to me, appear less like he thought of the Browns as his brand new toy if he kept Mangini for now. And I would be more impressed and have more long-term confidence if he succeeded with that approach.
Alternative view: it will be important for Holmgren to get things “turned around” ASAP — he does not get a 3-year rebuilding window. If you believe Mangini is headed in the right direction, then Holmgren can keep Mangini but basically take credit for the ensuing success. If I’m Holmgren, I keep him around unless I am convinced we can’t be successful together.
What is Holmgren’s deal? How many years? Anyone?
@51-
Is it true that everything you do, you do it for me?
I’m going to trust that whatever decision that Holmgrem makes on Mangini is going to be the best for the organization. I’m glad we’ve got this winning streak going and all but we haven’t exactly been beating contenders. I’m glad Mangini has been able to put so much depth together but the Browns are basically in a position where they have to draft/sign about 15 starter-quality players to be competitive. I don’t like them odds and I think we could have made inroads this year if Mangini drafted better.
I think Mangini deserves another year, but I don’t believe he’ll get one. Holmgren is a good hire, an old school football guy, rather than a “shrewd” young whippersnapper. But if they really gave him 10 years 50 mil, that’s a BIG mistake. When’s the last time a ten year deal worked out for anyone in any sport? It guarantees that he’ll either be complacent for six years, or have four years left when a successful “wave” ends.
Clown Baby,
Are you okay (let’s pretend that our opinions matter) with keeping Mangini-as-coach if there is a high wall between him and the decision-making for the next draft?
I think that Holmgren should set the philosophy and dictate what type of player the Browns need and Mangini having a say based on those pre-determined factors. Maybe Holmgren giving Mangini a list of people and getting Mangini’s feedback on them. Mangini’s 2nd Round drafts this year were inexcusable to me.
THANKS RANDY!
@46 – very nice…
I really like how many Browns fans are so quick to want to run anyone and everyone out of town…I’m pretty sure NO ONE likes to lose, but Eric Mangini is not getting a fair shake…he WANTS to be here and he wants to win too…I believe he should be given his 2 full years and with the onset of another offseason to build the roster up to respectability after the horrific previous regimes, he will be successful…I’m just curious how many of these fans that want to see him gone are the same ones that wanted Bill jettison’d as well…how many here would like to have a multi-super bowl winning coach now?? Oh wait, everyone does…
Cleveland fans are so quick to give the hook to someone that doesn’t baby them and smile and talk nice nice…let the man do his job…the locker room (even though people want you to think otherwise) is in pretty good spirits…why is that you say? because they let the knuckleheads go…JLew, Braybray (lobsterclaws), K2, etc, shaun smith, etc…so that the team players, that Mangini wanted…are now there…and results are coming too…
dont be so dang quick to judge someone that may have drafted the best DB in the league (revis), is saving the team $ by seeing what he had in his QB’s, and waiting til he saw Cribbs play well across the board to be a dynamic part of the offense, rather than pay him to be an overpriced KR…
Mangini should stay 1, if not 2 more years…
just my opinion…
[...] night I wrote about how I don’t really see Mangini surviving the Mike Holmgren hire. Regardless of what happens with Mangini or whether or not you think he deserves more time or the [...]
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