No Magic Buttons For Mike Brown
May 6, 2010Antawn Jamison Calls Cleveland “Unbelievable”
May 6, 2010I was reading over at Cleveland.com on Wednesday and came upon this poll question- What would it take to get you back to Cleveland Indians’ home games? A very good question actually. I wasn’t thrilled with the answer selections, so I thought I would offer my vote here.
It really boils down to a couple of things. The first is that I don’t want to be treated like an idiot. Don’t try to sell me on players for three years when you have absolutely no intention of paying them close to market value when they are due for a contract. Along these lines, stop bringing in players like Dellucci and Branyan. It is kind of insulting that you sign these C+ to B- free agents and try to get us excited about them. You are wasting money that could have been spent to keep players in town that the fans actually care about. I know that there have been efforts made in the past that burned the organization. You signed Hafner and Westbrook to long term deals and then they spiraled down the injury staircase. But to be honest you have gotten relative passes for those players. We are all pretty done with Travis, but even the anger about Hafner’s contract that exists is nothing compared to the venom I’ve seen for guys like Dellucci.
That leads to another point- Have a plan. Yep, I said it. What in the world is the plan right now in Cleveland? Who is part of the future plans? We hear Manny Acta say something like “better enjoy Choo while he’s here.” Really? Are we already conceding the fact that we won’t be keeping Choo? What about bobble-head fan favorite Grady Sizemore? How about Carlos Santana? He’s down at triple A right now, but we’re getting pretty excited to see him soon. Should we just forget about Santana too?
I will always go to a few games throughout the season as I can because I love the game. If you want me or anyone else trying to be responsible with their spending to keep coming you better be able to convince us that you have a plan in place and that plan has a chance to work. We don’t have any interest in being the Pittsburgh Pirates, ready to cut loose every player that has a chance to earn more than minimum salary in this league.
I know there are a lot of fans calling for a change in ownership. It seems you don’t have the funds to field a competitive team for any type of sustainable period. If the current ownership group are actually fans of the Indians perhaps selling the team would be the best way to show that loyalty. Roll back prices in the meantime and let us know that you are just going to be a AAAA team until a buyer is found. We’ll respect that kind of honesty. But please don’t keep rolling out the same product with a new wrapper and tell us it’s improved. We’re not buying.
49 Comments
Well said Rick. It pains me to see the Tribe look so sorry, and I completely agree with the quadruple-A classification.
The team needs a change. The team needs money. And Major League Baseball needs to change. At this point, between steroid and HGH (and yes, the Indians have had users on their roster, so get over it), an uncapped salary mess, and rediculous decisions from the commish (the All-Star Game “counts”), baseball is about to, or has already been relegated to, also-ran status like the NHL.
I love the game of baseball. I live in Columbus and attend many Clippers games, but the events that have transpired since the loss to Boston in the ALCS have left me shell-shocked.
I agree. Stop wasting money signing Dellucci and Branyan level players. Spend that $$ on foreign scouting and signing draft picks.
Well done Rick, I definitely agree here.
You don’t accumulate the best/deepest farm system in baseball without a plan.
That is one sad picture of John Adams. Let’s get that man a seat at the Q! He deserves it!
very nice rick, I agree with your write up 100%
Or we could root for the name on the front of the jersey instead of the back. Signing CC Sabathia would more or less drain any funds we had – we’ve been in the top 10 in spending in the draft 4 of the last 7 years – for a small market team isn’t that more productive than signing ONE player and having to surround him with crap?
Reality is that if the Dolan’s sell this team – they are moving away from Cleveland. There is absolutely no market here. The fans won’t show up. It isn’t the Indians fault the system is flawed.
Tell me this – if you were the Dolans and you knew you would have to lose millions of dollars to resign CC, only to continue to be a middle-of-the-pack baseball team that had to compete with the LeBrons and the untouchable Browns, would you do it?
Also – I thought part of being a fan was cheering no matter what. This team is only a few years removed from the ALCS and fans are so down they act like they’ve never won. Two 90 win seasons in the last 5 years is a lot more winning than the Browns have done, so why the double-standard? Tribe fans are fair-weathered. When all these prospects hit in 2012 and 2013 the bandwagon will be full again – just like in 07.
A farm system that doesn’t equate to wins can’t possibly be considered the best anything.
The Indians are well on their way to being the laughing stock team of my youth.
In regards to the NHL also ran comment. I don’t spend a dime of my money on MLB, but gladly would pay to watch an NHL game. Especially a playoff game. No sport can match the action and intensity of playoff hockey. Playoff baseball is a snooze fest for 7 innings, until things really heat up for 5 painstaking hours needed to complete the final 2 innings. No thanks.
The Indians will never win a Series in my lifetime. And I’m OK with that.
Did I imagine an Antwan Jamison article?
Narm, if I watch the games on TV I’ll see the players’ faces for hours and hours, hear their names over and over again, and begin rooting for them individually. Unlike football, for example, where everyone’s wearing a helmet and a facemask and there’s so much action that there isn’t any time to think about the guys behind them much. Baseball is more leisurely and personal. It’s individual triumphs and failures in the pursuit of a team goal. That’s what I love about it. I can’t be a fan of the Indians without caring about the players on the team.
Yeah, what happened to the Jamison quote-u-copia?
Exactly. I’m so sick of developing players only to watch them leave because we fail to pay them market value when it comes time. This goes back to my favorite player Albert Belle, all the way through the likes of Thome, Ramirez, Sabathia, Lee, etc. Unless their is a commitment to winning by ownership similar to Dan Gilbert’s with the Cavs (i.e. spend money to make money), I don’t think fans will EVER truly come back.
“This team is only a few years removed from the ALCS and fans are so down they act like they’ve never won.”
How many of the 2007 team is here today? That’s like saying the Browns are only a few years removed from a shot at the playoffs. Stop it. While the front of the jersey may be the same, this current group is NOT what was winning 90 games three years ago.
well said narm
Jamison will be at 1p – it was mistakenly published early. Stay tuned.
The fact that the front office put together 2 93+ win seasons in the last 5 seasons in the financial reality that they work with is awesome. And it should give us confidence that they know what they are doing and will do it again in the near future. The comparisons to the pirates could not be more inaccurate.
that the head on the nail Rick. Nice post
Oh – and FWIW, there will be a piece on a similar topic tomorrow…
Don’t small market teams HAVE to bottom-out periodically? There’s a theory somewhere about that, which I recall buying into.
(Apparently, it doesn’t matter that much to me, or I’d remember it.)
Best Tribe article I’ve read in a while. You hit the nail on the head. I will be a diehard fan of the Tribe until the day I die – nothing could change that. I wept with joy with Kenny resigned in 2007. I applaud the addition of Sandy Alomar. I hope some day that Omar will be involved in baseball after his retirement as a Cleveland Indian. I love the youth and energy of real ball players such as Grady, Choo, and Santana. I desperately want this to to succeed. But so many poor decisions…
Im with you Nam!No matter how bad they are, i still watch. This team has been to the playoffs in the last decade. Can you say the same for the beloved Browns?
While The Dolan’s dont have the money to own this team (you need a billionaire owner, not a millionaire owner), Nam is right when he said its the system that is the problem.
Rick B-/C+? Branyan and Dellucci are D+ at best.
Once again, we come back to Dolan and the other small to mid markets refusing to band together and affect some sort of change on this system. If they can’t bother with it, then they can have their empty stadiums.
I realized the team will bottom out from time to time, but don’t act as if this team is as good as the 07 squad when there are only a handful of players left, and no results. Since the Dolans bought the team, every time we had an all-star come up for a contract, we traded him for a handful of prospects. When those prospects are looking to get paid, we trade them for more prospects. I’m convinced that the 90 win seasons were flukes; the prospects and no-name free agents happened to hit on all cylinders for a season, before they got traded. I agree with Rick: there’s no PLAN here. the success has been coincidence more than anything else.
Short of it is that if they’re going to win 50 games this season with 10,000 people in the stands, and I want to go to a game because it’s a nice day and I enjoy baseball, don’t charge me $40 or $50 for a seat and a $5 “same day purchase” charge. I could get the same experience in Eastlake for 12 bucks. If you’re putting a minor league team on the field, you ought to charge minor league prices.
@4
True. They do have a “plan” but it isn’t a plan with winning the world series, or making the playoffs as a goal. Their plan relies on luck.
Step 1: Use the Minors to develop prospects into Major talent.
Step 2: Hope enough of the Minor league players become stars all at the same time in order to make post season.
Step 2a: If not, trade the few stars you do develop for more prospects
Step 3: Repeat ad nauseum.
@24
1. Every world series winner needs some luck. More so in this sport than NBA of NFL by far. The MLB playoffs are virtually a crap shoot… look at the success of the wild cards in the past decade.
2. Your description of the plan sounds pretty accurate for all successful small market teams in MLB. This should make it even more impressive that the indians have succeeded at this plan twice since the decline of the Jacobs field sell-out era. Most small market teams go through periods of drought for twice as long as the tribe has. Shapiro and company have done a good job making the droughts relatively short between contending years.
Tommy… where can I get this kool-aid you’ve been drinking?
@23 Trading guys looking for huge deals is the name of the game.
Lets put it this way – Hafner was a top 3 hitter in the game. We signed him long term – he got hurt and now we are stuck with his contract. It is a weight around our necks that prevents us from signing any mid-level FAs.
But now you want us to go and do the same thing for CC (look at his frame and tell me he is worth a 7 yr contract), Cliff Lee (who was demoted to the minors just a year before), Victor (who is fast becoming a 1B with no power).
The Hafner example is exactly why we SHOULDN’T pay for big-name FAs. If they flame out you are screwed. Fans aren’t coming to the park to see Hafner – just like they wouldn’t for Lee or CC.
Also – if signing Lee or CC would bring people to the park – where were all these people when we HAD Lee and CC? The logic is flawed.
Tribe’s a victim of a screwed up system, certainly, but it’s the poor internal decision-making that’s really killed em at the gate…The Dolans have spent money at times, but on the wrong guys. Meanwhile, the team doesn’t draft worth a damn, and seems to only be able to acquire viable young talent thru trading star players. Bringing in scrap like Branyan only pisses off fans more. They see an unambitious franchise right across the street from a franchise that’s doing all it can to win and keep its star player in town.
Fans simply don’t trust this ownership group, fair or not. During ’07, the team was drawing maybe 20G-25G a night, even when it was evident that they were pretty damned good and were likely to make the post-season. Fans will only come back when they see a commitment to winning from ownership, or the Dolans sell.
@28 Great post. The Dolans have signed Hafner, Westbrook and Wood to big deals. As well as extended Carmona, Sizemore and Peralta.
Is it their fault that Shapiro spent their money on the wrong guys?
historycat
The plan you lay out DOES have the playoffs as a goal. See “Step 2…in order to make post season.”
Do you think the “stars” label would have to be on everyone in order to make the playoffs? I don’t.
If “luck” is defined as cultivating what one believes to be the best percentage play, I think they are rightfully relying on so-called luck.
I think they’ve hit some “bad” luck, or the percentages have broken against the Tribe. I suppose they anticipate hitting some “good” luck in another round, or having the percentages break FOR the Tribe.
But this cycle hasn’t gone around enough times to say it won’t work, unless by “work” one means “building a dynasty.”
Whether we admit it or not, I think we all get a little dynastic in our thinking every time the Tribe is good. (Even though we say we know that it doesn’t work that way for small market teams.)
Hafner was not a top hitter when we signed him to that stupid contract. He was in the midst of a lowsy year and the thinking was “he had his contract on his mind”. In hindsight, it was likely the beginning effects of getting off the roids.
Getting rid of Vic and Lee a year and a 1/2 before their contracts ran out showed the bottom line ain’t winning. It was definitely feasible to think at the time this team could have contended in the lousy AL Central with them on the roster. Instead we got some marginal prospects in return for a salary dump that the FO tried to spin as “we couldn’t turn these guys down”. Those deals were not the Colon deal in which we fleeced them for their top guys. I’m sure had we waited a year and had to trade them in 2010 there would still be mediocre prospects to be had…
I don’t see a ton of bad decisions. I see a team that has the short end of the stick, the way the Rays and the Twins had when we were hot. The reality is as someone posted earlier – all we can hope for is that all the prospects get good, and they do it at the same time, and we get the breaks during a one-two year window.
The Marlins pulled it off once all the way. The Tigers had their window a couple years back. Arizona too. We came close in 97, and again in ’07. Our next shot will come in 2017.
And as the old Jacobs field sellout streak proved, it’s not impossible to compete with the Browns. You just have to be good for long enough to sink into fans’ consciousness. Which will never happen as long as it’s two good years then trade.
“You are wasting money that could have been spent to keep players in town that the fans actually care about.”
Per Cot’s, we’re paying slightly over $5 million this year for Branyan, J. Wright, Redmond, Kearns, and Grudz. Figure out how st spilt that money to keep CC, Cliff, and a 31 year-old catcher with a declining bat who can no longer throw anyone out.
“Hafner was not a top hitter when we signed him to that stupid contract.”
He had just come off two straight top-10 MVP appearances and while he’d had a down first half in 207, he was still putting up an .850 OPS and had walked more than he’d struck out.
Shapiro makes mistakes in contracts and trades. Our drafting has been a real weakness. But if you’re not going to games because you think you have a better understanding of baseball economics, then you’re being stubborn.
Oh, and if you’d rather they just resign the now-crappy players from the 90s instead of the crappy players we have now, justr so you can cheer for Omar or Kenny or whoever, that’s bizarre!
“I don’t want to be treated like an idiot.”
Rick: thank you, thank you, thank you. That’s exactly it.
#24/Historycat: agree. And it’s not just about simultaneously developing enough young players to compete, they also have to be both position players AND a pitching staff, AND fit with the Dolans’ ever lowering salary structure. The 2007 squad had some newly established players on their second contracts (CC, Grady, etc.) to go with an unexpected 19-game winner. Choo has hired Boras, Dolans have less revenue, don’t see that happening again.
Yes, MLB favors big markets, but whither St. Louis? They re-sign stars, attract free agents, hired an expensive manager/staff, rarely “bottom out.” If it is simply because Missouri is baseball crazy KC’s attendance wouldn’t suck. The harsh truth is not that Larry Short Pockets is cheap, he’s way over his head. He can no longer front the cash to make it better like when he bought in, and as apparent from the Lee trade, he cannot even finish paying out the modest second contracts because he’s back to the Vernon Stouffer/Estate of O’Neil ownership days of trading players just to make payroll.
Cleveland’s slavish fans would support the tribe if there was hope, if the product was not a runny ladle of dog feces slopped onto the field, plus a couple of promising kids we are asked to enjoy watching develop. But they won’t compete without some Victor-types, veteran leaders who actually still play well. Not talking Aaron Boone, Dellucci, Brany – (can’t even say his name). I do have a passing interest in watching Carlos Santana’s 3 year audition for market dollars, but not enough to buy a season package. And if Larry Short Pockets must rely on current revenue, we won’t see ’07 again. As the team worsens, future cable revenue will shrink along with the gate revenue.
What’s Usher doing these days? Maybe he’d go for some different type jocks to sniff in return for a cash infusion. Yeah, right, about the time Larry will show up with a new tat.
Sorry for long rant. Don’t think I’ve commented on Tribe twice since season’s start. Buttons pushed.
The Tribe only has about 9 or 10 REAL fans. Sad. The rest of you fakes only hopped on the ‘wagon after they got good and Uncle Artie’s 45 moved to Baltimore.
I can’t believe some of you think that what I outlined is a “good” plan! I’m just flummoxed!
There is no way that you’re ever going to get enough of the good players to hit their stride in the same year. That’s why this is an aweful plan.
We had CC hit his stride in one year and win the Cy Young, and traded him. That next year Lee hit his stride and traded him.
Unless you are willing to keep a guy for at least a few years of good play you’ll never EVER get all the tumblers to click at the same time.
If we kept CC even til the end of his contract we would have had the 2 best pitchers in the AL in our rotation while we still had young bats producing. Add one more bat to that line up, and one piece to the bullpen and you’re neigh unstoppable.
Instead we traded another Cy Young and were hoping to catch that lightning again. It’s not going to happen if you are not going to keep any pieces.
In 5 card draw do you keep the initial deal everytime? or keep your pair and hope to draw another pair or 3 of a kind?
Please play poker with me and refuse to discard. I’ll win your money in no time.
And whoever said that part of my plan said they will make the playoffs.
That isn’t part of the Indians’ plans. It’s a happy byproduct. It’s a “we were running with scissors and DIDN’T impale our self, isn’t that awesome” happenstance.
IF we make the playoffs or even compete in any given season it is by chance, not by design.
When we made the run in the 90’s there was a concerted effort to build and hold a team. I remember them saying “We will develop pitching and make that our signature, and build around it” That was a plan and it worked.
This is treading water and hope we run into land.
historycat
“IF we make the playoffs or even compete in any given season it is by chance, not by design.”
I think making the playoffs would be by a design that embraces chance.
What about their telling people “we will develop pitching…” leads you to believe that the success was bound, without chance, to follow when it did?
I am not saying a non-plan is a good plan, by the way.
I agree that the Branyan and Dellucci signings are frustrating. But how do you distinguish those from, say, Carl Pavano, who worked out pretty well.
We lived through 2002 and 2003, and it paid off in 2005 and 2007. I guess all there is is hope that they can compete again soon. What else is there?
@39
Of course there is an element of chance. But you increase your odds by building not hoping.
You think the Yankees won 27 titles or whatever it is by just being lucky? And that some teams are just cursed? No. It’s alot of work and a little luck.
They buy others’ players. That’s their plan and they can afford to buy people at every position.
When we actually had a plan in the 90’s we built a pitching staff, and we signed hitters to long contracts. Not one, but many. So if one hitter didn’t work or was injured we had others. All those moves were building something.
What are we doing now? “When the time is right we will spend the money.” Ok so if that time wasn’t when you have 2 Cy Youngs then when? You chose to trade them instead of spending. You put all your eggs in the Hafner and Wood baskets and then pout that it didn’t work.
Agreed, small markets cannot buy like the Yanks and Sox. But Pit’s model, and KC’s model is ours. Be a farm team and hope.
But the Twins are small and they compete most years. How? They spend the money to keep talent. They develop and spend. Not develop and hope.
Luck is involved. But you know how I avoid getting hit by cars? Look both ways, and hope. Not just hope.
You must be forgetting that whole decade between 91 and 2001 when the twins were horrible. Just becuase the twins signed mauer to a mammoth deal doesn’t mean they always spend the money. They just opened a new ballpark and our competing in a depressed division… sound familiar?
What the Tribe experienced in the 90’s was a perfect financial storm and Jacobs milked it for all it was worth. there is a reason a smart business man like that sold the team at the point he did. That whole era was the exception and you should stop using it as a bar to judge this new era becuase you will constantly be disappointed. I doubt the tribe will ever be in the top 5 in payroll again and the Dolans would be ridiculous to spend like that.
They overpaid for the team, they expected the revenue to continue from the 90’s.. but then the browns came back, the cavs got good and the economy in Cleveland got horrible. the team was great in 05 and 07 and the attendance never followed. We have become one of the smallest markets in MLB and thats just the reality, so we will do the best we can in the system that is MLB.
There is no sense in comparing us to the Yankees whatesoever. And we are not even close to the Royals or the Pirates so stop that too.
Yeah, I get the not just hope part, but I don’t think that “just hope” is the Tribe’s procedure.
The spending may be harder going than Dolan had planned. I don’t know if Harv 21 was the one who suggestied it, but Dolan may be doing all he can and just plain in over his financial head.
And i agree with Greg that we crucify Shapiro for the bad decisions and forget about the good ones. Branyan was not signed to help us win the world series. he was signed becuase his value was down at 2 mil, and Shapiro wanted to bring him in, let him hit 15 hr by the break and flip him to a contender that needs a bat for another prospect or 2, just like we did with Pavano.
How bout Elarton, Byrd, Johnson, Blake, DeRosa and other acquisitions that worked out?
Trading C.C. Sabathia following a Cy Young winning season
Trading Cliff Lee after a Cy Young winning season
Trading Victor Martinez, and All-Star and Fan favorite
If anyone in good conscience can tell me these moves were made with winning in mind, you must have some information I don’t. The pitch has always been, “We’re going to spend when we’re in contention” well in 2008 we had a chance to ensure we would be contenders for the next couple of years at least by keeping the core of an ALCS team together. Clearly if “spending” is defined as stopgap measures or “Low risk High reward” like Juan Gonzalez or the various garbage we’ve been fed (Delluci, etc.) then this team isn’t worth watching.
We root through thick and thin, we’ll check the boxscore, listen, and watch at home. But why spend money to watch a team that wont do the same to provide a winner?
Lee and Sabathia weren’t staying here.
I don’t think its a coincidence that the Dolans own the Knicks and Rangers also. Of the three the Rangers are the only team over .500 in the last season. The Knicks are the basketball equivalent of the Tribe.
If we did get a new owner he would have to be willing to spend some bucks, not only in player salaries but on the overall organization. I agree they’ve got to stop bringing in clowns like Branyan. 2 mil a year for this waste of oxygen is just like throwing money down a rat hole. If you’re going to try and build then play the kids. At least if we lose it will be because we’re fielding a team of kids with potential and not some washed up has been.
@ GW Bear – in this analogy who is the LeBron that the Tribe are waiting so patiently for?
LEBRON TO THE TRIBE THIS WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING
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