Source: Manny Harris to Nab Cavs’ 15th Roster Spot
October 19, 2010The 5-Hole: Blue Jackets News and Notes – 10/19/10
October 19, 2010Anyone else enjoy watching Cliff Lee absolutely dissect the New York Yankees last night? That was a Picasso that ole’ Cliff painted in the Bronx. No runs, two hits, 13 strikeouts, and just one walk against the best lineup in baseball? Can you believe what we are watching?
I think we all knew that Lee was good, but can anybody have imagined that he would turn into Sandy Koufax? That’s what he is folks. He is the best left-handed pitcher in the game and it’s not even close.
The Yankees gave CC Sabathia seven years and $161 million when he hit the market two winters ago. Cliff’s game dwarfs his right now and CC is an All Star. Consider their postseason records after last night:
Cliff Lee – eight starts – 7-0, 1.26 ERA, 0.73 WHIP, 67 K’s, seven walks, 1 HR allowed
CC Sabathia – 12 starts – 6-4, 4.79 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, 64 K’s, 38 BB’s, 10 HR allowed
Talk about being a free agent at the right time.
You cannot put a price on the postseason performance differences between these two. Cliff Lee is the best postseason pitcher we’ve seen since Orel Hershiser’s incredible 1988 run.
My friend in NY, a die-hard Yankee fan, was at the game last night and emailed me this morning:
It was the 2nd best live performance I have seen in person, and the 1st was also Texas related….Vince Young’s performance in the Rose Bowl vs USC. SO who did you get for Koufax anyways?
In case you needed a reminder, the Indians received RHP Carlos Carrasco, RHP Jason Knapp, IF Jason Donald, and C Lou Marson.
Some say that trade looks like a complete fleecing. I still don’t understand why the Indians didn’t keep Lee into the winter of ’08, then start a bidding war. I used to subscribe to the “The Dolan’s were hemorrhaging money” theory as to why Cliff and Victor Martinez were dealt last summer. But after the reports were leaked this summer about the finances of the Pirates (they allegedly made $29.4 million in ’07 and ’08 despite crying poverty), I don’t buy it anymore. The Tribe brass just tried to re-start the rebuilding process early.
More than a year after the deal, Lee is arguably the best pitcher in the game and the Indians aren’t sure about what they have received.
Carlos Carrasco – The one-time jewel of the Phillies prospect fell in their ranks behind the likes of Kyle Drabek and Jason Knapp. Still only 23, he arrived in Cleveland for a September look and impressed in his seven starts. Throwing in the mid-90’s consistently and mixing in his breaking stuff, Carrasco struck out 38 in 44.2 innings pitched while posting an ERA of 3.38. With the wave of young arms the Indians have coming, Carrasco seems to be the one most ready for a rotation spot in 2011. If he doesn’t make it, it will be an upset.
Jason Knapp – Knapp, if you recall, was the kid the Indians held out for in the end. He came to the organization at age 19, a A-ball pitcher with massive strikeout stuff. Then after just four starts with Lake County, a shoulder injury was inflamed, causing Knapp to be shut down. Arthroscopic surgery would soon follow and anger amongst Tribe fans ensued. He returned to make nine starts between Arizona and Lake County, striking out a whopping 47 in 28.1 innings pitched. Don’t forget, he is still a top 60 MLB prospect according to Baseball America and will only be 20 next season.
Lou Marson – He was a throw in, a stop-gap until Carlos Santana was going to be ready anyways. In the end, Marson came as advertised. Not a hitter, but a great defender. He has one of the best arms in the game behind the plate and will be the backup catcher for the foreseeable future. That said, he didn’t hit his weight this season and is still a backup catcher.
Jason Donald – The Phillies probably sold him to the Tribe as a future starter at second or short, but he was blocked there by Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins. Donald started the season learning how to play second base in AAA because of the Indians giant hole there at the Major League level. He ended up being called up to play shortstop after Asdrubal Cabrera broke his forearm in late May. He stayed with the big club the rest of the way bouncing between second and short.
I like the way he plays the game, but his numbers didn’t really impress (296 ABs/.253/4 HR/24 RBI). The reality is, like with Marson, Donald is more of a bench guy than anything, but adds value.
The Indians were never going to be able to get equal value for someone of Lee’s stature, but when you consider two of the four players they receive look like utility players at best, and the key to the deal is a 20 year old who already has had shoulder issues, it makes you wonder.
31 Comments
“The Indians were never going to be able to get equal value for someone of Lee’s stature”
…which is the worst part of the entire landscape.
im really really hoping he can go 2-0 with dominate performances against haladay and the phillies in the WS.
that would be so great.
Though choosing to trade him a year early certainly didn’t improve his value.
The fact remains that the Indians will have to pay *someone* to be the foundation the franchise will build around. But rather than doing that with marketable stars like Lee or Sabathia when they were already established on the team, the Indians chose to wait out Travis Hafner’s albatross of a contract instead.
i love the Indians. However until a salary cap is introduced its all but useless.
@4 — I’m with you.
I’m hoping Cliff Lee goes to the Yankees. How awesome would that be?!? They could throw Carl Crawford in the outfield somewhere, too. I want it to be as perfectly obnoxious as it can possibly be at this point.
Do you think it could get SOOOO obnoxious that a Yankees fan or MLB would recognize the imbalance?
C’mon the salary cap didnt force us to trade Lee – a bad decision by a cheap owner did.
I’m with Robbie. I hope the Yankees get Lee and Crawford this off season and win the World Series. Only until the people realize that it’s useless to compete will there be a salary cap. Plus George is gone from the Yankees so his kids can’t be as strong against the other owners.
It used to be that the small market teams could stay competitive by trading the guys they knew they couldn’t sign and getting actual top prospects. Now, however, teams don’t offer crap cause they know the small guys HAVE to get something before their big guns walk. They offer marginal talent knowing they can just sign the guy in the upcoming offseason if they really want him.
Mike @ #3: Hafner was willing to deal, so was Jake. Cliff and CC weren’t (despite what they may have said at the time).
#6: Really, still going with the cheap owner line? So if the dolans offered CC what the yankees did and then NY increased the offer by 20 million and another year, then what? Not gonna win those wars so why even get started in them?
ESPN charts the Rangers payroll as $5M LESS than the Indians this year. Dumping him was just plain STUPID. With a pitcher like Lee even the Indians could maybe squeak out two wins against the Yankees in the ALCS… Unfortunately a bad owner didnt want to take that chance???
I am not a fan of baseball, mainly b/c of no caps, but it’s insane to me that we had Lee AND CC here!!
Pretty amazing when you think about it then you realize they are no longer here and we are still in Cleveland with the terrible Indians. I’d want out of here too.
@9 — The Indians front office does take chances. See Travis Hafner and Kerry Wood. Unfortunately, those didn’t work out and, unlike the big market teams, when the Indians take chances and don’t hit on them, it SCREWS THEM financially.
Then, you have to take into consideration whether or not these guys want to play in Cleveland for a little more money or play for a team that competes year-in and year-out.
yanks will lowball him at 5 years, $105 million. He will eventually sign with Texas for 6 years, $165 million, with a player option for a 7th. just guessing.
And it has been funny all week. The New York media has been TERRIFIED of Cliff Lee. Every article was trying to figure out how the Yankees were going to win 4 out of 5 games, since Cliffy was obviously going to win 2 games for Texas. I’ve never seen anything like it. Derek Jeter was like, “WTF is wrong with you guys?”
This is my issue with the current ownership regime. Granted they are not going to win bidding wars but instead of dealing from a position of strength they jumped at the first offer they got for Lee. They had time on their side to get teams to bid against one another but settled for career back up players and a young prospect with a bum arm. Carrasco might turn out to be a decent pitcher but he is not going to make anybody forget Lee. I hope the new GM is a better poker player than his predecessor but I doubt it since he is a Shapiro protegee.
[edited because apparently I can’t tell time and/or got 2008 (CC) mixed up with 2009 (Cliff)]
Hindsight is also 20/20. When we traded Cliff, we were assuredly selling high. Let’s not forget that he was in AAA for a big chunk of 2007 and “the best postseason pitcher we’ve seen since Orel Hershiser’s incredible 1988 run” didn’t make the Tribe’s 2007 playoff roster.
In five years when Carrasco and Knapp both *should* be in the Tribe’s rotation, we can perhaps evaluate this trade a little differently. Yes, it sucked to trade the reigning Cy Young winners back to back, but both were wanting to test the market, and 12 months is a long time in baseball. Lee could just has easily blown his elbow out for the Tribe in meaningless games in 2009 and rendered them holding the bag on an untradeable asset this summer. And again, when we traded him, he’d never made a post-season start.
And, this is total devil’s advocate hypothetical crap, but if the Tribe wins a championship in 2012 or 2013 with Michael Brantley, Matt LaPorta, Carrasco, and Knapp all playing big roles and in (or close to in) their primes, does it soften the blow at all?
Not sayin’, just sayin’.
Until a salary cap is introduced, smaller market teams don’t stand a chance because it’s a never ending cycle because we end up dealing our top players for prospects because we know that we don’t stand a chance at signing them. Once those prospects develop and turn into stars, they will ultimately end up getting dealt or signing with one of the larger market teams and we get prospects that we get to develop in our systems only to probably end up dealing them as well.
That’s the mentality that most of the larger teams have developed and I have even heard a number of Yankees fans say how they can’t wait until Carlos Santana is in pinstripes. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a response for them because it’s probably true because ownership could offer the money he wants, but odds are the Yankees or another major market team will overpay to get him because they know we can’t compete with the offer.
I’m still surprised that nobody’s talking about Shapiro, easily the worst GM in baseball in judging talent and handling a budget. All the horrendous trades can be placed directly at his door. Plus the hiring of Manny Acta, who’s previous claim to fame was driving the Nationals into oblivion.
Until the Indians dump Shapiro and Acta, they’re mired in the cellar with 90-100 losses/season.
Oh for the days of John Hart and the Jacobs family!!!
“But after the reports were leaked this summer about the finances of the Pirates (they allegedly made $29.4 million in ’07 and ’08 despite crying poverty), I don’t buy it anymore. The Tribe brass just tried to re-start the rebuilding process early.”
TD, that is a non-sequitur and I don’t believe it even makes logical sense. No reason to just “start rebuilding early” if you’re not getting real quality in return, because trading stars hurts receipts in the short term, replacing them with mediocre players hurts receipts long term. At the time not even Shapiro was claiming he received future stars, like he did after the CC trade, he cried poor and “economic realities.” Every aspect of the multiple player dump that year – from the quotes to the objective player evaluations to the itchy trigger fingers – points to a cash flow problem worthy of the Vernon Stouffer era.
And how about some love for Cliff Lee. That horse has smelled the barn and hasn’t stopped galloping for 3 years. No nursing his arm to insure the payoff contract, just being his best flinty-eyed, SOB self in the biggest games, non-stop since 2008. Wondering how long a pitcher can stay in a zone like this.
@15 — When Carlos Santana went down with that injury, I swear I could hear the Yankees front office cries of despair down here in Akron. The ones from Boston were only slightly less pronounced.
@Oppie, that’s only part of the problem. The other part is that when small-market teams do take a chance and sign a big player to a big deal, they’d better hope it works out. If it doesn’t, the small-market team is totally screwed. The Yankees can afford to sign players who don’t live up to their contracts (Pavano is a good example) without crippling their finances. The Red Sox could afford an underachieving Gagne. We can’t afford to pay a stiff like Hafner over 10 million a year and still field a high-priced team. The outcome of a player on a big deal underachieving is a lot more severe for us than for big-market teams, and that is the other part of the problem.
It definitely looks like the Indians got robbed in the Lee trade but Philly and Seattle took even less. If we get one impact player out of the deal then we made out better than those two teams. Just imagine how impossible to beat the Phillies would be if they kept Lee after they picked up Halladay. They could have still made the Oswalt deal.
No matter how much talent the Yankees stockpile the other owners in the league won’t rebel. They’ll cash their profit sharing checks and shut up. This is another reason why the NFL is the model sportsleague. Everyone is on a level playing field.
@Alex – agreed. We’ll see how the Twins are effected by the Mauer signing. They paid a lot of a catcher who will break down soon enough. I think that deal may become an albatros for them.
@Alex – Precisely.
@Mark — Did Minnesota get any kind of “hometown deal” for Mauer? Regardless, and as gun shy as I am about dealing in a market like Cleveland… I probably would have wanted the Indians to take that gamble!
Actually, how does Hafner vs Mauer compare when they got their deals? Years of production and age-wise?
@Robbie – Well, it’s an 8 year/$184 million deal that runs through 2018. I don’t know if you would call that a hometown discount. He’ll be 35 at the end of the contract. Yikes.
Hafner got a 4 year/$57 million deal that runs through 2012. He will be 35 at the end of that deal.
Given that Mauer is from Minnesota, I think the Twins were in a corner with that deal. They would have been killed by their fans had he walked. However, I just don’t see this ending well for them. That is a lot of money tied into one guy. If he falters, man are they on the hook. That is something we know all about.
Mauer is from Minnesota and signed with the hometown team…I thought all hometown players took their talents to South Beach.
I agree hindsight is 20/20. I mean his track record before his cy young year was questionable at best.
The Giants got a left handed cy young winner in his prime and look how barry zito turned out.
Sure we didn’t get a good deal, but there was no one in baseball who put cliff lee in THIS category back then.
jr,
Steve Phillips did. Called him the best left handed pitcher in the game way back in 2005 or something and everyone laughed.
The guy is a moron but man did he call that one right.
Yeah, judging by how the Steve Phillips’ tenures as both Mets GM and ESPN analyst turned out, I file that one under “even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.”
The fact remains that the Tribe likely would have ended up with a player with more upside by letting him walk as an FA and taking the draft picks.
Whether they traded him b/c they wouldn’t be able to sign the draft picks or they didn’t want to pay the remainder of Lee’s contract, it perfectly illustrates why MLB is about as competitive as the WWF.
[…] in 22 starts and a 3.14 ERA. He was then traded to Philadelphia which would then begin his run of “I’m Sandy Koufax!” in the playoffs with Philly in 2009 and Texas in […]
Great article but it didn’t have eveyrthingI didn’t find the kitchen sink!