Shaq To Cleveland: WFNY Weighs In
Here are some thoughts as the group here at WFNY process the trade- (Note: Rock will have a full post on his thoughts at 11:00. You knew he couldn’t be contained in under 1500 words.)
Rick- When this deal resurfaced a couple weeks ago, my thought process was “is this the best we can get for Sasha and Wallace”. The Cavs have only three ways to get better this season. One is through the draft, but unless they could secure a top 8 pick, don’t expect much there. The second is with the MLE, in which they can sign a veteran even though they are over the salary cap. This player will help, but the chances of them getting better at the Center position through the MLE were pretty slim. Finally there were the tradable contracts.
I’ve been reading comments and even some journalists who are saying this trade is great because of who the Cavs gave up. That’s not the point. It’s not how much better Shaq is than Wallace and Pavlovic. It’s whether Shaq is the best we can do with those expiring deals. Personally, I still think we could have had Camby and now we know that we could have had Tyson Chandler. Yes, Chandler’s contract extends beyond 2010, but it wasn’t a max deal. There still could have been room to sign LeBron plus another free agent. So count me as a bit skeptical on this one. We absolutely have to sign Andy now, and who we get with that MLE is extremely important. We obviously need an athletic wing defender, but we are also looking really think at guard.
Dan- In a vacuum it’s not a bad trade: Shaq is an upgrade over Wallace, Pavs had all but fallen out of the rotation, and the Cavs didn’t trade any member of their “core” to get what is essentially a one-year-flyer on the Big Chamberneezzee. But, I’m asking myself, is this really where the Cavs need to improve? Yes, Howard was tough against them, but he’s tough against everyone. What cost the Cavs against Orlando was perimeter defense and a lack of ball movement on offense. Shaq certainly doesn’t improve either of those areas dramatically. I also find myself wondering if this is the best they could do with $20 million in expiring contracts… basically $20 million in a different expiring contract. But, at the end of the day, the Cavs got better and deeper in the front court, didn’t have to touch their core, and are now going to be the media darlings of the NBA.
Todd- It’s a no lose situation for Danny Ferry. In bringing in Shaquille O’Neal, the Cavs finally got the back to the basket post man and thick body who can slow down Dwight Howard that they didn’t have before. They also managed to get him for essentially nothing. Ben Wallace is finished and we’ve all seen enough of Sasha Pavlovic to know we’ve seen too much. Throw in the fact that Shaq’s deal has just one year left and you’ve got a no-brainer of a deal.
The downside is Shaq potentially clogging Lebron’s driving lanes. We will cross that bridge when we come to it. While the Cavs are a better team today, they can’t be done. An athletic wing has to be added, along with re-signing Anderson Varejao. No doubt, I like the move. I just wish it would have been done in February.
Craig- This trade seems early. That isn’t to say ultimately it wouldn’t have become the best possible option, but it seems a bit quick. I really hope that as the off-season progresses the Cavs don’t look foolish for trading Wallace so quickly. You remember how we all made fun of Boston for jumping on Mikki Moore? I hope there isn’t a trade later on this off-season that makes us conclude that Shaq was the much higher stakes version of the Mikki Moore signing.
Jacob- I can’t believe it happened. The Cavaliers acquired a 37-year-old center who used to be the greatest player in the NBA, in an effort to do exactly what? Hope he will be able to stop the 24-year-old Superman on the Magic or provide the low-post scoring we desperately need? I truly don’t think he will save either of those faults with this team, and it is a clearly a quick-fix desperation move by Danny Ferry and company. I would have loved to see the team wait, wait and wait on the expiring contracts of Wallace and Pavlovic to see if we could eventually snag a Bosh or a Chandler. This trade shows to LeBron that Danny Ferry is truly short-minded in his thinking, and if the Cavaliers do not win a championship this season this trade will look absolutely horrible. With Z and Shaq we now have the oldest front-court in the NBA, and for all that we criticize Pavlovic, at least he was younger and better defensively than the average scrub combo forward. I really do not care for this trade at all.
Denny- I think now the big question is this: Can Mike Brown become the disciplinarian that we hope he can be? He’s going to have two huge locker room presences now. He needs to be the one in charge now more than ever. Yes, LeBron is the stud here, but MB can’t defer to LeBron anymore. He needs to be in charge. If he can command this team’s respect and not seem like a LeBron puppet, that’ll be a huge first step.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Heard of any good nicknames for the newest Cavalier?
Some being tossed around:
The Big Witness
The Snowplow
The Steamer (haha)
June 25th, 2009 at 10:13 am
The Big Kielbasa
June 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am
The Big Erie
June 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am
The Big Cursebreaker
June 25th, 2009 at 10:19 am
The Big Chill
June 25th, 2009 at 10:21 am
The Big Euclid. Now the paint can be truly called Euclid Avenue.
I don’t understand why people want Tyson Chandler. He is literally falling apart physically. NO tried to trade him last year and it got nixed after the physical. After him who else? The clips made it clear they arent trading Camby, and hes every bit as old as shaq. Maybe we could have gotten Bosh at the deadline, but whos saying Toronto isnt contending? They certainly wouldnt make the move then. This is obviously a short term move, but what other move could they make?
Twitter accounts are abuzz. Charlie Villanueava is hinting that the cavs need another PF. Chris Kaman (please kill me) said he almost got traded to the Cavs. Windhorst said the Cavs are far from done. Whats going to happen next?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Witness Protection
June 25th, 2009 at 10:25 am
The Big Pierogi
hopefully he does not turn into “The Big Mistake By the Lake”
June 25th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Thinking about Z and Shaq on the floor together, let alone the same team. Makes me break into a cold sweat and curl up on the floor.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Chandler would be Hughes all over again. Overrated and injured. Do you really want to take a gamble on him beyond 2010? Camby is a strong defender, but Shaq is superior offensively.
I think this could really work out. If all else fails, we can still deal him at the deadline.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Lake Effect Shaq
June 25th, 2009 at 10:31 am
@ Gregg- You may be right about that one. Again, I’m not about to say I know which of these options is absolutely the best one. I just want the Cavs to know.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:33 am
I agree a little bit with everyone here. Although it was a good move by Ferry, it is hard to think that it is best move he could have made, and one has to question the timing and all with LeBron’s contract extension coming up. Adding another slow-footed big is not exactly what we need, but considering who we gave up it wasn’t a bad trade by any stretch of the imagination. It’s not like he’s going to stifle our offense like he did the run-n-gun Suns, right? The real test will be in the next move Ferry makes…
June 25th, 2009 at 10:33 am
The Big Cuyahoga
June 25th, 2009 at 10:33 am
One thing to remember is that this is a revenue generating move as well. The Cavs will get even more national games and TV revenue, every home game will be sold out, merchandise sales will skyrocket, the booble-head industry will thrive, and as a result the the economy in downtown should brighten a bit too. Maybe our economy is based on LeBron James?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:34 am
@#11 – The Lake Effect. I like it.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Come on. You know Shaq is going to take “Queen Shaq”.
I don’t think there’s anything “bad” about the trade; the only question is whether they could have gotten something better with those pieces.
In that vein, going into the year without moves would have LeBron upset, and you can’t count on winning the Bosh sweepstakes midseason. With Shaq, you’re saying to LeBron “we’re trying to win you one first.” After the season, Shaq and Z are both done (if there’s a championship victory especially), and there’s no doubt the Cavs are pursuing Bosh to take over that role.
I’m not convinced that they could have gotten much better for this year than Shaq, and having those pieces become useless like Wally did this year is pointless. It’s not like they are providing an ounce of support.
Has anyone given thought to the Cavs’ starting lineup? Do they play Z and Shaq together at points? I do think that other teams will have a very hard time scheming to stop the Cavs’ O now, and it’s not like the Cavs play a hurry-up O that gets slowed down. Fastbreaks never involved much besides the LeBron train. Defensively, you no longer have to rely on Z down low; the question is how the Cavs will work it. I’m betting a 3-2 zone.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:34 am
@Gregg
Bingo. Everyones biggest beef seems to be that this somehow limits our trade deadline flexibility. As far as i know, there is no clause that prohibits us from dealing Shaqs expiring contract at the deadline if the experiment doesnt work.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:35 am
…and since we are stocking up on aged players for our front court, does anyone think Leroy Smith might be available?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:36 am
I didn’t want Chandler. I’ll give him the fact that his defense is solid, but he is hardly a scoring option to free up our wings a little bit. We were still one of the best 3pt teams out there even without a legitimate low post threat.
I completely disagree with everyone who says this is a desperation move by Ferry. Rumors have been absolutely swirling throughout the league about different possibilities for a Wallace/Pavs trade and it shows that Ferry was shopping this option to anyone and everyone who had a PF/C we could use. We choose one of the options that was the most acceptable to the team and with the best chance for success. Some of you guys are assuming that some teams would have just taken Wallace/Pavs for Chandler or someone like him. It seems to me that alot of teams were demanding someone like Delonte thrown in there are no deal. Ferry seems to have made sure to weigh all options before going ahead with this trade and we’ll just have to wait to see if it pays off.
Shaq also played the most games he has in years last year, even when on a completely scrub team that barely had a chance to make the playoffs. What will true motivation due?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:38 am
@ Jacob: I think calling this a desperation move or shortsighted, is itself, short sighted.
We all realize that nothing matters beyond 2010. Could we have made a better move? Possibly.
More importantly, are we in a worse position now than we were yesterday? Not at all. We gave up nothing for a slightly better nothing with potential for upside.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I realize how insane it sounds using the word “upside” with regards to a 37 year-old center.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:45 am
@deeble -
I know I’ll be first in line to purchase a booblehead!
Yeah I don’t know how this could be considered knee-jerk when this has been discussed since last February…when Wally was still showing up for games no less. I like thinking about the second unit. Ideally, we could bring Z, Andy and hopefully Delonte off the bench. That’s a strong second unit where Z and Delonte can balance out Andy’s side-spinning jump shot.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:47 am
@7: Craig- I think that’s the name!
June 25th, 2009 at 10:48 am
I’m waiting for one the writers above to tell me who they think we could have received for Pavs/Wallace? Please be realistic. Camby is going nowhere and I’d rather have Shaq then him anyways. Who else? It sure is easy to say we could have done this or done that but it takes 2 to tango. I think you have been reading the boards over at Cleveland.com too much with trades like Wallace for Alridge or something else just as ridiculous.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:50 am
I just don’t see the downside of this trade. At worst, we’re just as good as we were last year, and we take our chances that we can beat the *one* team we struggled with last year. At best, LeBron averages 12 assists per game and we win 75+. Assuming Shaq and Z spend very little time together on the court, we’re not really any slower, and Z could flourish off the bench.
I’m really looking forward to this for the entertainment value at least.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:50 am
@7 – Craig FTW!
June 25th, 2009 at 10:52 am
All in all, pretty good analysis, save one point:
“…for all that we criticize Pavlovic, at least he was younger and better defensively than the average scrub combo forward. ”
As I recall, wasn’t one of the great criticisms of Pavlovic that he WASN’T a good defender? That he was a “shoot first, guard if I feel like it” type player?
At very least, this improves the overall talent level of the Cavs immensely. Might not win them a Championship, but it’s definitely an upgrade, and one they neede.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Aside from LeBron, I think Shaq wants a/another championship more than anyone else in the Association, especially since Kobe just got one without him. For him to win alongside Kobe, Dwayne and LeBron would be storybook. So, point being, the rejuvenated Shaq we just saw from this year will continue.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:53 am
“The downside is Shaq potentially clogging Lebron’s driving lanes. ”
This always cracks me up. Ask DWade if Shaq clogged the lane for him.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Ferry’s next move/tonight’s draft will clarify this deal some. At this moment, even if Z accepts his option year and we re-sign Andy, we have no real starting center in 2010. Z can’t still be starting at age 137 and Andy is just not a starting center without an oversized 4 protecting him. I don’t see how Ferry doesn’t either draft or trade for a big.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Z was a starter playing bench minutes last year. Start Shaq, bring Z off the bench where the other team’s second line has no counter. Each plays about 20 min a game, with Andy (hopefully) taking over the last 8 min.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:56 am
@ Jacob… “With Z and Shaq we now have the oldest front-court in the NBA, and for all that we criticize Pavlovic, at least he was younger”….
Are you kidding me Jake? Sure Shaq is older than Sasha, but that’s hardly a argument against The Diesel. The bottom line is that we are a better team today than we were yesterday. I don’t understand the criticism of this trade at all.
June 25th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Harv, can we really afford to worry about who’s playing center in 2010?
June 25th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I’m trying to figure out why so many of you think this is a bad move. Fact is it is the best the cavs could do! If wallace retires as we all think he is going to you couldn’t have waited until into the season to make a trade because wallac’s contract wouldn’t have been there.
The true superman still has it even at 37 he’s not going to be pushed around and more importantly he gets along with lebron(heck he’s been watching him since he was in HS..we all remember the footage) We got better no matter what you think Shaq is better then what we gave up.
Who else were we going to get Vince Carter? the man who has never done anything and is almost as old as shaq…oh wait Kaman that’s who was offered to us talk about a poor mans Z…Chandler so far he’s as big of a bust as larry hughes…shoudl I go on..all the rumored names were wothless.
From what Espn was saying is that Lebron told ferry get me Shaq. Now convince Kid to take the MLE…and you have a true team of all stars…and best of all so much money is free next year it’s sick! Z, shaq, Lebron…holding all their bird rights…so you can go and sign someone else (bosh or wade) to the max contract and then resign any or all of the 3 to what ever you want since you can go over the cap to sign your own players.
whats not to like about this trade? worse case if you have a 20 million contract to trade at deadline time.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:02 am
“…and we take our chances that we can beat the *one* team we struggled with last year.”
See, this I don’t necessarily agree with. While Howard was good in the ECF, he wasn’t what killed the Cavs. It was not being able to defend on the perimeter against bigger players who could shoot that killed them. Shaq doesn’t help there.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:03 am
Shaq can’t move in transition just like Z, who knows if he can play Mike Brown defense, and I don’t believe this was the best we could do with our expiring deals. I don’t like this deal, and until Shaq proves me differently, I am just going to believe this is Ferry feeling pressured to do something and taking the easiest trade possible.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:04 am
“See, this I don’t necessarily agree with. While Howard was good in the ECF, he wasn’t what killed the Cavs. It was not being able to defend on the perimeter against bigger players who could shoot that killed them. Shaq doesn’t help there.”
Sign Birdman!
June 25th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Dp, what killed up was MIKE BROWN’S stubbornness to not change his defense…has he ever heard of a ZONE? how about teaching your players to go OVER THE PICK? or don’t let them pick and roll you to begin with..if a team like the pistons can do it then we should have been able to also.
I love mike brown think he’s one of baskeballs best coaches, but man he has to learn to adjust on the fly.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:05 am
I think we should go against the grain here and call him Shaquille O’Neal.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Eli’s got it. I said it yesterday in our discussions. He wants to be in Denver, but get me some Birdman and I’ll be giddy. He even out-energies Andy.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Jacob who would have been the best deal we could get in your opinion?
June 25th, 2009 at 11:07 am
so seriously though, is z going to accept a bench role?
June 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Rumor out there I heard last night is Z told ferry He’s willing to be in a trade if the other team promises to release him like with the mcdyse(how ever you spell it) deal last year….so that he can come back resign and come off the bench.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:10 am
I agree a lot with Rick in his assessment. With all of the rumors and the trade talk surrounding Chandler, Camby, Kaman, Jamison, etc. it is hard to just sit back and be satisfied with acquiring a 37-year-old bruiser who can’t motor.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:11 am
@#41: “He even out-energies Andy.”
Cocaine is a hell of a drug…
June 25th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Turk…it was clearly meth!
June 25th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Jamison was a fantasy..never was serious espically after wash made the other trade. Seriously you gonna tell me Kaman, Chandler, or Camby was a better deal? I’d give up an 2nd rounder for any of them for sure, or pav starit up but none of them are better the even a 1/2 skilled shaq ( who is still more like 80% of what he used to be)…besides we already have a better version of Kaman his name is Z. Lets not rule out JJ or D00 actually getting better in year 2 (heck D00 should learn ALOT just form watching shaq)
June 25th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Z wants a championship very badly, is a total team guy, and will not only accept his role off the bench, but will thrive. He has not had any protection with a true second center, who is oh by the way a hall of famer, the whole time he has played in Cleveland. He started here, fought for years, and wants the ring to finish it here.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:18 am
@ Jacob – The wizards are playing for now. They aren’t letting Jamison go, especially after getting Foye and Mike Miller. Chandler is constantly hurt. Camby is old too. Kaman? I’ll take Shaq, thanks.
It’s probably not the best thing we could have gotten, but it certainly isn’t the worst.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:19 am
The only downside is potential injuries. Other than that, this will work.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:25 am
i like “the big walleye”
AND isnt z an expiring contract as well??? they now have 33 mil in expiring contracts– look for z to be traded at the deadline if it doesnt work– and he makes 13 mil???
June 25th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Yea, every time I mentioned the Cavs trying to aquire Jamison to a Wizards fan, I get the big “wtf?” look, even before the Miller trade. They are locked into the insanity of trying to “go for it” with their big three, even though its completely implausable that they even get to the ECF with that team.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Sorry, just catching up…
“Dp, what killed up was MIKE BROWN’S stubbornness to not change his defense…has he ever heard of a ZONE? how about teaching your players to go OVER THE PICK? or don’t let them pick and roll you to begin with..if a team like the pistons can do it then we should have been able to also.”
I don’t like the zone against a hot-3-ball-shooting team. A zone can give up too many open looks, and the Magic’s perimeter passing was very good. As for the pick and roll D, I don’t disagree. But, how does Shaq allow the team to improve there? Shaq shouldn’t be part of pick and roll D. What killed them in that respect was have a big slow guy in Z having to show on the DHo picks out high, and then getting killed trying to chase him back to the paint. The Magic either got an easy look for Howard, or an open 3 ball look because the Cavs had to double/recover on Howard.
June 25th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Chandler, like many have said, would have been a horrible trade. The thing I like about it, is if Shaq doesnt fit, hes a 14mil. expiring contract. Theres really nothing to lose right here, and as I admit I was skeptical at first, there can still be a ton of moves the Cavs can make. Quick question too… can ’sheed be signed with the MLE? If he does, the cavs can try to get one of the PG, preferably a shooter, and maybe buy a pick back in the late first or early second and get a big guy that may get in the rotation by playoff time.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
@#35:
“and best of all so much money is free next year it’s sick! Z, shaq, Lebron…holding all their bird rights…so you can go and sign someone else (bosh or wade) to the max contract and then resign any or all of the 3 to what ever you want since you can go over the cap to sign your own players.”
I like your thinking, but you are a bit incorrect here. you can go over the cap to sign your “Bird’s rights” players, but you have to sign them first and then go try to sign someone else.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I normally do not post comments on articles. However, the arguements of these writers are about the dumbest things I have ever read. You act like all of a sudden the raptors want to trade bosh of this junk. That you are actually worried we lost PAVS!!!! Are you even reading what you are writing. Shaq clogging the lane? Are you insane?! He will open the lane as he still needs to be doubled. Also, the reason we lost to ORL is because we were missing someone like Shaq. If you do not have to immediately double him, then you dont have to rotate like mad to get to the open jump shooters they have. You also dont have to worried about Howard posterizing Z for 10 plays in a row. Wake up! This is the best they could do. Chandler? Are you serious? Larry Hughes Redux. Finally, if it doesnt work out, you have his expiring for Feb., when if Raptors our of it, THEN, they might trade Bosh, otherwise, contract off the books after the year. Seriously, I am very disappointed at you writings. Understand basketball please before posting this blogging drivel.
June 25th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
blasted that comment out at work. sorry for the typos, limited internet time during lunch break – if you even allow the post…..
June 25th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Well rd, I hope you’re right, but remember this isn’t the 2002 model Shaq we are talking about.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
I read what I wrote rd. I stand by it. It’s gonna be a challenge for Mike Brown.
Or is that blogging drivel as well?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Jacob, are you on drugs? If things don’t workout with Shaq they can still attempt to trade HIS expiring contract for another talent at the trade deadline. Also, so what if Pavlovic was better defensively than the average combo guard? The suns are simply going to release him and if the Cavs want him back they can use their Bi-annual exception to sign him back (I believe it is 2.27 mil this year and I doubt Pavlovic commands more than that from any team) the Cavs also still have their Mid- level exception to try and sign a athletic wing/taller SG-SF type.
The fact that Shaq’s contract is only 1 year makes this trade a win win because if it turns out to be a bad move then his big contract can be a huge part of making another trade, you know there will be teams wanting his expiring contract to gain some cap room for the 2010 free agency.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
about the only viable question to this trade is the question IF Mike Brown can handle Shaq and LeBron and Sheed if they do indeed bring him in. I could easily see Shaq telling the media after a game “This dude is drawing up 7th grade plays out there”. The question of if this was a sound basketball move, a trade that improves the team – that can not be debated. No, it is not 2002 Shaq. But is still a legitimate power center that can score, commands a double and will not allow an opposing center or PF to slide off his man to double LeBron on his drives, which is what CLOGS the lane.
Denny – let me rephrase as my first post was in hast (thanks guys, going to be a late night for me know but I had to respond to some of these completely insane Shaq trade not good posts from your writers, Q the DVR for first hour of draft!
Your post was the only one that had true thought and insight behind it.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Well rd when you start a site with your incredible basketball knowledge be sure to let us know where to find it.
June 25th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
dont worry about it rick, im working on it actually and ill let you know
did you even check Old Man Camby’s or overpaid injury machine Chandler’s stats before your post? Do you REALLY believe either of those options would have been a better trade then Shaq? Camby is a downgrade from Shaq any way you look at it – Chandler and his deal would eliminate the ability to get Bosh next year. Can you give any statistical or intangible reason to say those would have been better? Or were you just trying to stir the pot?
June 25th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
here’s a stat for you rd- Chandler is 26 years old! he is a heck of a lot quicker than Shaq, and is much better suited to the style of defense that the Cavs play. But you are right rd, he doesn’t score as many points as Shaq does so obviously that was a stupid suggestion. Can’t believe I would have the nerve to think the Cavs should want him. Nevermind they had a deal in place to grab him if Phoenix said no….
June 25th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
The Big Seagull….
June 25th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
What you are not taking into account is that Chandler already has a cronically bad ankle (remember the grizz i believe nixing that trade due to injury history?) – also, I am already tired of hearing Shaq is a poor pick and roll defender. His job on D with this team will be simple, body up the big on the other team one-on-one and be done with it. You will have a much lesser need to do all this rotating and help defense with him in the middle intimidating and holding down the other bigs.
And do not be fooled so easily about the proposed Chandler trade. It was simply a tactic to pressure the Suns into making this trade. What Ferry was saying to the Suns was simple – “Hey, you dont want to save $10mm dollars, fine – I have 2 other teams that do.” Ferry wanted Shaq, LeBron wanted Shaq, the Suns just needed to be compelled to pull the trigger.
As I think this is pretty much agreed by everyone, this trade was financially motivated by the Suns. If they didnt jump on the Cavs offer now, they may have been stuck with his salary all year.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Of course this was a financial move by the Suns. And obviously Chandler’s injuries play into the equation, otherwise no way would New Orleans even be willing to part with him.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
For all of those want to wait, wait for what? For this deal to go away? To wait for a better play, which would be whom that fits into the long term solution? In rare cases (Phoenix being one) is a team going to trade an expiring contract for (drum role) expiring contracts. Other teams want to unload their long term contracts for the expiring one so they can save money. I just do not see where a better player is going to come along.
And how long do you want to wait? Didn’t we try that with Szerbiack? And what happened? Nothing, just more crappy players being offered which is why we kept him. So we hold on to Ben and Sasha and what happens, we get offered the same tired players and nothing happens again.
June 25th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
You saw the Mo Williams trade coming last year Morph? Just because no other options are apparent at this moment in time doesn’t mean opportunities won’t open up. This happens all the time in the NBA, where a team suddenly out of the blue decides to go in a different direction. Suppose the Bucks decide to trade Redd. Or the Hawks with Josh Smith. Or the Suns with Amare. Or someone else we’re not even considering right now. You never know. That’s why you have to be very comfortable with a trade like this before you make it.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Rock, I think it’s safe to say that the Cavs WERE comfortable with the trade before they made it. You guys are the ones having a panic attack over it. I’m not going to say you all didn’t put some thought into it, I just disagree with your conclusions.
First, there’s no way Shaq is slower than Z. He’s just not. Second, Shaq is a better scoring option in the paint than Z or Andy will ever be. It’s an angle to the offense that just plain didn’t exist last year. Third, the Orlando pick and roll was one problem, but they also killed the Cavs because Howard HAD to be doubled. The open shooters you guys mention were only open because the Cavs had to rotate around the perimeter like chickens with their heads cut off and the Magic just passed until they found an open shooter. Or Howard abused the double and scored inside. Shaq helps take that part of the offense away completely. The Cavs perimeter defenders don’t have to leave their man to double Howard anymore.
Fourth, and someone else mentioned this but I agree so much I’ll say it again. Shaq will NOT clog the lane for LeBron. D-Wade drives to the hoop so aggressively that he’s often out of control doing so. Yet he and Shaq won a title together. I feel that Shaq actually protects that drive by LeBron in two ways. One, it becomes suicidal to double LeBron at the top of the key now, leaving him one-on-one most of the time. Who in the world can stop him? And two, once he blows by his defender these days, the other 4 guys collapse on him in the lane. Well Shaq is going to be planted on one side of the paint, effectively walling off at least two defenders. That should leave more space for LeBron to finish.
Plus, if LeBron does get challenged and the shot/layup misses, who’s there to clean up the offensive board? Shaq Erie, that’s who.
I love the trade and we’ll see what else The Dans do with the draft and the MLE. But all of this makes the Cavs better and more ready for the teams they’ll face in the playoffs this year. Next year is when they get the young big man to play with LeBron for 8 years of his prime.
By the way, the real concern next year might be the Spurs, if they stay healthy. The trade for Jefferson is a huge upgrade.
June 25th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
My goodness, who are the ones having the panic attacks? Sheesh. All we did was give our opinions of a trade. Nobody is freaking out here.
And seriously, y’all need to stop talking about Wade and 2006. This is 2009, and this is not the same Shaq.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Im not gonna lie, I agree with rd too. Chandler got rejected by OKC last year because of injury problems. NO has been trying to get rid of him. I understand he’s 26, but you can’t deny that Shaq has better stats. Maybe the Cavs D isn’t fit for Diesel but I bet they know how to change and make it so he works. Amare is actually on the table too, but the Suns want something back for him.
The biggest challenge will be can Mike Brown coach this team. If they fail this year, its all on Brown, assuming the Cavs add 1 or 2 people and keep Andy.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Haha! Sorry, I had a lot to say. No panic attack here either, but face it the original column had more than a dash of the classic Cleveland “Oh my God, what were they thinking!!!!!” tone to it. I just think there are way more positives than negatives for right now and waiting to see if something better came along would be a mistake. There’s no indication of anything better (in my opinion) being available, so pull the trigger. I have no problem with that.
And do you really think 2009 Shaq is much different from 2006 Shaq? Especially with the motiviation he’s going to have pushing him to get a new multi-year contract and potentially beat Kobe in the Finals? People in 2006 thought Shaq was washed up, but he made it work. I happen to think he’ll also work out with LeBron for 1 year and 1 title.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Yes. If you think Shaq is the same now as he was in 2006, you haven’t watched him play in the last year.
The fact is, he’s going to clog the lanes. That’s what he does now. But that’s ok, if the Cavs accept it and adjust to it. You can make it work for you with a prolific passer like LeBron. But if the Cavs take our readers’ advice and ignore it and pretend like this is 2006 Shaq, well, then the results aren’t going to make us very happy.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
We all gave our opinions, boiled down into two paragraphs at most. These were compiled at about 8 this morning and were all gut-check responses. TD wrote a very positive response. That gets neglected. Dan’s was mostly positive. Craigs was guardedly optimistic. Rick and Jacob were skeptical. I’m positive about it, but my gut response was – this is all going to come down to Mike Brown, and I think it does.
We’re 4:2 on this one with regards to positive:negative. Hardly panic attack mode. Just because we aren’t out praying towards Ferry’s house 6x a day doesn’t mean we’re not positive. We also aren’t 8 year olds (or PD employees not named Brian Windhorst) who are running around like we won the lottery.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Rock, seriously, read my comment. I didn’t say 2009 Shaq is the same as 2006 Shaq. I think he’s marginally slower today than he was 3 years ago, but his style is the same.
Denny, Rick wanted Camby instead, which is nuts, and Craig compared Shaq to Mikki Moore, which is Britney Spears circa 2007 nuts. Jacob called it short-minded and desperate, while also missing the fact that LeBron was likely consulted on the trade so it’s what he wanted. To call these opinions skeptical is a gross understatement.
But don’t get me wrong, I understand they’re just opinions and I enjoy reading them. I also think we all agree that the Cavs can’t be done. Let’s see what other pieces they add tonight and in the coming weeks. Then we’ll actually have an idea of what this team will look like.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Craig compared the fact that it could be early to make the move, a la Mikki Moore. That I agree with. Saying their play is similar, false. That would be crazy, but I don’t think it’s what he meant.
What kind of margin are you referring to here? The margin between columns in a newspaper or the margin between eastbound I-90 and westbound? Because I think it’s a little more towards the latter. Shaq be sloooow these days compared to 06.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
my oh my – i wish i didnt have 2 proposals going out today so that i could comment more, but it seems like the folks at WFNY are backtracking w chickens with their heads cut off after reading comments that actually make sense from a “real world” and basketball perspective. Denny brought the only valid negative point to the table, can Brown handle this squad.
If you watched the Suns this year you saw a dominate center, especially with Nash getting him the ball in positions to score.
And for the clogging of the lane, Shaq will NOT clog the lane for LeBron, this is basketball 101 Rockking, read Kevin H’s post for the exact reason he wont. Also read the post on the perfect explanation of why having Shaq would have negated all the open 3 looks by eliminating the constant rotation on the 3 point line after the doubles. I couldnt have put it better myself, just didnt have the time to put in such a detailed post due to work constraints.
June 25th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Oh, gee, thanks for the basketball 101 lesson rd. So enlightening!
All hail the god of basketball knowledge, rd!!!!!!
June 25th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Denny – OK, Shaq is slow. Is he slower than Z? Are his feet a tangled mess in the post like Andy’s? Does he not finally give the Cavs a legit low post presence that they desperately lacked last year? Not only is he more efficient from the field than all the big men on the roster last year, but he gets to the line more as well. And don’t bring up the free throw shooting because he’s a better FT shooter than Ben. And his 60% of his ave. FT per game last year is 4 points, which is double that of Z who shot 80% from the line. He’ll get to the line more, he’ll rack up more fouls on opposing big guys… He’s the big presence in the paint we all wanted. So he’s old, so what? We only have him for a year, then the Cavs’ new Chinese investors will help us use the cap space to sign Yao!
Or Bosh.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
You counterargue zero points that I made. I win.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I guess I don’t get the arguments from the WFNY staff. To me, there’s 2 ways to look at this deal (because I wasn’t a big fan of it even a month ago) and I’ve completely come around the more I think about it.
We lost games to ORL by just a handful of points (wasn’t it 8 combined in those 3 losses?) with Mo shooting horribly, Delonte not calling for the ball, and no support off the bench or out of Z (except for one game). So what did you add? You added scoring, toughness, and an ability to defend more athletic centers (kind of an oxymoron, right?) one on one.
To begin, right now, our PF position is weak. But no weaker than it was before when our only option was Ben Wallace. Because AV was still opting out. So, yeah, we’ll HAVE to add someone – Artest, Marion, maybe even see if D-Block can assume that role. We’re a guard oriented team anyway, you can’t have every player on your front line be a doube digit scorer and still have one guy average almost 30.
The frightening thing with us is if you look at our team stats. We had exactly FOUR players crack double figures in scoring. Yeah, one was a 30 ppg guy but you know what that means? It means too much offense predicated by one player. The Lakers had 5-6 of those guys (Fisher was at 9.9, Ariza at 8.9). The Hawks had SIX guys over double figures with Joe Johnson at 20+. ORL had a 20 ppg guy then 5 10 ppg guys after him (Pietrus was 9.4).
When your scoring is so unevenly distributed and relies SO heavily on (really) two players – Mo + LBJ = 46 ppg, and then your next scorer is Z at 13 and West at 12 – you are in trouble. ESPECIALLY when you don’t have ANY guys off your bench that can come in and chip just 10-12 points off the bench. Daniel Gibson was our highest non-starter by the end of the year at just 7.8. Sorry, that’s not going to get it done when he (as a 3 pt specialist) should need just 3 baskets to crack that.
So look at what Shaq gives you – 18 ppg and 8 rpg. That eighteen points almost equals Z + AV’s production alone. Is it the best thing we could have gotten for Sasha and Wallace? Who knows.
But being able to nab a HOF player for nothing and getting your superstar pumped about it – well, it should be a fun ride at least.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Denny – Wait, you made points??? Lol.
I guess I didn’t address the Mikki Moore thing. Maybe I misinterpreted Craig’s comments, but I still don’t think it’s a valid comparison. This Shaq trade has been in the works since February. It wasn’t a knee jerk reaction.
As for the “margin,” you’re right it’s the difference between Eastbound and Westbound I-90, only on the westside where there is only a concrete barrier between the lanes…
I win! Actually, Shaqta Clause is coming to town, so I think we all win.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
SomeoneStoleMyCheetos – Nicely put. I think you’re right. I’ll add that not only does Shaq give you more offense, but because he can take away some of Orlando’s points from Howard down low he also keeps some of the opponent’s points off the board. So that small margin of victory the Magic had could be taken away two different ways.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
@ Cheetozzzz – I think if we were to re-write this piece now, it would come out a bit different. But, we did a gut-check article early on that was pieced together via email. You admit yourself – you’ve completely come around the more you think of it. Maybe people here have different opinions now, 12 hours later (ha) – but maybe they don’t. Losing BW makes us no weaker than before? That’s silly. He would have played some. His PT would have let the other guys rest, so that’s at least something. How well he would have played is arguable, but he would have been out there. Artest and Marion are going to be hard to get, and costly. And it’ll be interesting to see if Ferry is willing to pick someone up whose contract doesn’t expire in 2010, or whether it’s an all in sort of thing. Right now he’s got everything coming off the books in 2010 for the most part. He’s leaving himself the option to get totally fleeced.
Shaq might give 18 and 8, he might give 10 and 5. It’s hard to say. Yes, he played well last year, but he’s got a lot of mileage. We’ll know in March how this all pans out. I think it’s coupled with more than just this move – this could be a very exciting time (not that it already isn’t). That being said, more needs to be done, Ferry knows this, and I’m hoping we get a good player to put at PF.
@ Kevin -Still wider than in between newspaper columns. And yes, I usually try to avoid making points.
Sorry to everyone we didn’t write a PD cheerleader article. You guys are such homers.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
@Cheetos: I’m not sure the majority of us are saying any differently. Most of us agree this trade makes the Cavaliers better. The question is whether it makes the Cavs good enough to win the NBA title. Hopefully it does, but it’s anything but a sure thing.
June 25th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Denny – You love us.
Rock – Come on, your article this morning contained little, if any, hope. I’ll assume you’re going through the transformation that Denny describes above and softening your outlook on the trade.
Now, I’m going home to prepare for the Draft. Sam Young anyone?
June 25th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
“on face value Danny Ferry just shipped off 2 players who offered nothing to the Cavs and who were barely even part of the rotation by the end of the season, for a player Slam Magazine just last month named as the 4th best player of all time. ”
“this is still a player who just last season averaged 17.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, shot 60.9% from the field, and had a PER of 22.3. So yeah, the Cavaliers just got a little bit better. You could add Pavlovic and Wallace’s production together, double it (maybe even triple it), and still not get the numbers Shaq put up last year as a 36 year old veteran.”
“It’s pretty hard to argue with the production the Cavaliers are getting in this trade.”
“Shaq may be slow these days, but whereas that was a big hindrance on what Phoenix was trying to do offensively, it will actually fit in with Cleveland’s offensive identity. The Cavaliers have sorely, and I mean sorely, lacked an inside scoring presence the last couple years. Joe Smith and Anderson Varejao have pretty much by default been the Cavaliers best inside options the past couple years, but neither one can give the Cavaliers the kind of offensive post presence that Shaq will give.”
“How many times the past couple years have we seen LeBron use his ability to draw defenders to feed the ball inside the post to someone only to see them either mishandle the pass or miss the resulting shot? Well, that’s not going to happen with Shaq there. If LeBron can get the ball to Shaq in position to score (and lets face it, we know he will), Shaq is going to finish the play. With Shaq’s inside scoring, LeBron’s ability to drive, distribute, and score, and Mo Williams’ ability to knock down outside shots, the Cavaliers now have a 3 pronged offensive attack.”
“Bringing Zydrunas Ilgauskas off the bench will be an adjustment for sure, but it’s hard to not feel good about Z and Shaq’s ability to cut into each other’s minutes and keep each other fresh.”
“When Shaq goes to the bench now, there won’t be that sharp of a drop in production with Z coming in. There will be a difference stylistically of course, but not in terms of pure output.”
“There will be plenty of adjustments that will need to be made, and there will definitely be a rough period of adaptation as the Cavaliers get used to playing with Shaq. He’s going to demand the ball at times, he’s going to slow down the offense at times, he’s going to use up some of LeBron and Delonte’s driving lanes. All those concerns are real concerns. But they’ve been issues with Shaquille his whole career and teams have always found ways to use him to their advantage and to win championships.”
“What Shaq can do that the Cavaliers couldn’t do last year, though, is defend Dwight Howard (somewhat) one on one. Not having to double Howard constantly will definitely help the Cavaliers not have to chase Orlando’s shooters around the perimeter, which is a good thing.”
“You have to be a little concerned about those numbers, but at the same time, it’s important to remember that for most of these games Shaq was playing on mediocre teams. Now that he will be paired with LeBron James and playing on a real contender for the first time since he won the title with Wade in Miami, the Cavaliers are obviously hoping the results will even out.”
“There are definitely going to be some question marks on the court with adding Shaq, but overall the Cavaliers are better team today for having him. I don’t think there’s any way to doubt that. And when a team that won 66 games last year finds a way to improve itself, you should feel good about that.”
I’m not softening anything. I stand by every single sentence of my post.
June 25th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
i dont think the criticism has come to this article bc it was not a homer PD article, its that the rationale and reasoning of why this trade was bad was horrible.
come on, seriously, someone said they were sad to see pavs go. PAVS!!
June 25th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
@ rd – I’m not defending that. You’ve got a point there, but JR’s got his rationale behind it. Personally? I won’t miss Sasha at all.
@KevinH – I know that I’m important and all, but please don’t confuse what I have to say with love. If you do – heaven help you.