Cleveland in the News for All the Wrong Reasons
September 30, 2009A Post Grind Split
October 1, 2009While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email in the sidebar.
And in this corner… “The notion that Mangini should lose his job anytime during this season or in between this and the next, is ridiculous and irresponsible, not least because as long as the carpetbagging anglophile Lerner maintains ownership of Cleveland’s most cherished public trust, a coach in the mold of Mangini might be our only hope. Anyone who disagrees might at least ask first, is there anyone who deserves a greater benefit of doubt than a man trying to rebuild Randy Lerner’s Browns?” [Cleveland Frowns]
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Fighting the good fight: “The NFL’s actions follow in the footsteps of Major League Baseball, which encouraged its players to use pink bats and wear pink wristbands on Mother’s Day. I figured the least we could do here at Midwest Sports Fans is add one more voice projecting awareness for this most worthy of causes. So you will see the new logo, pink nav bar, and this post in the headline section for at least this entire weekend.” [Midwest Sports Fans]
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Asymmetry at its finest: “Evaluating managers involves consideration of a paradox. On one hand managers are often held accountable for a team’s poor performance. Disappointing season — fire the manager. Players underperforming — fire the manager. And yet in addition to this concept of accountability, it is widely regarded that managers have relatively little impact on the final outcome of a season if not an individual game.” [Let’s Go Tribe]
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Not to mention, below Charlie Frye’s career numbers… “Quinn’s quarterback rating of 62.9 ranks 30th out of 33 eligible players. Just for fun, David Garrard, Seneca Wallace, Byron Leftwich, Kevin Kolb, Shaun Hill, Trent Edwards and Kyle Orton are ahead of him. I’ll give Cleveland fans a second to stop baning their heads on their desks…” [Rumors and Rants]
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And finally, if you’d like to catch tickets to tonight’s showing of More Than a Game, head over to Cavs HQ for the chance to win a pair. Popcorn included! [Cavs HQ]
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(Photo by Doug Pensinger/Getty Images)
26 Comments
I read the Frowns column last night, and it had me seeing this situation in a whole new light. I wasn’t exactly calling for his head, but I really didn’t like the direction they were going after 3 games.
I would think that the biggest hurdle they face right now, even bigger than “instilling a culture”, would be years and years of lousy drafts. If we could actually get a draft that would pan out ( and I know it’s still early to tell if 2009 did ), I would certainly have a bit more faith in Mankok.
Like i said yesterday – I’m not sure how patient I can be w/ Mangini. Give him the rest of the season, sure. I’ve got no problem w/ that.
What bothers me most isn’t the losing or the horrible way in which we lose, it’s all of the collateral stuff.
– Agents telling players not to come here
– Insane “QB” controversies
– “Voluntary” bus rides
– Articles about how he’s the worst hire ever
– Tearing down the mural
– $1,700 fines for taking a water bottle
He’s not even been here a year, yet he’s starting to compile a list of mistakes PDQ.
While We’re Waiting (To see if Delonte reports to camp today, Please God.)
Help us LeBron Kenobi. You’re our only hope….
Well Ben, i have a little argument with those points.
What bothers me most isn’t the losing or the horrible way in which we lose, it’s all of the collateral stuff.
– Agents telling players not to come here – Could happen, but purely speculative
– Insane “QB” controversies Perhaps they both stink?
– “Voluntary” bus rides To a youth football camp. Did it really kill them when they have a shot at making millions playing a game?
– Articles about how he’s the worst hire ever Again, purely speculative. Not Pos’ best piece. And there have been more than a few that top this as a bad hire. Dave Shula in Cincy off the top of my head.
– Tearing down the mural – Not sure why, but this doesn’t particularly bother me. When we haven’t had a hall of famer here in 40 years, it might be time to move along.
– $1,700 fines for taking a water bottle Pay your bills, plain and simple.
I realize that this is a simplistic approach to these issues, but I really do think that this team has to hit bottom before it will get better. I’ll be the first to admit when / if I’m wrong about this, but did a little discipline ever hurt anyone? Now, the amount of structure and discipline may be a bit much, that remains to be seen. But if we gave “The Walrus” four years, Mangini has to get at least two years to evaluate whether or not he’s righting the ship.
Should we also give Mangini THREE more drafts to run on his own without an Executive VP and GM? (remember, the Jets had Mike Tannenbaum in place, here Mangini is accountable to no-one). How long would you like to go year over year in degrading this roster and organization before you determine this is cancerous?
One year and out-book it.
@5: Those are all valid counter-points, although as you said oversimplified. I do think, however, the old “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” adage holds true here.
We’ll see. I defiantly think he should finish out the season. If we start to see more and more “smoke,” then maybe we should pull a Cam Cameron. If things seem to be looking up, even in the littlest bit, then we have a chance at going forward w/ the Mangini.
Isis,
If we assume that the Mangini regime is bad and should be removed and we assume that the ownership has bad judgment, how can one predict that the ownership will remove Mangini except for reasons that reflect bad judgment? Are you saying Lerner is going to learn?
And the worst QB rating since 2008? Derek Anderson.
I agree that Mangini’s job is safe, which is what makes a “win now” move like putting DA back in so puzzling.
@#8Matt-
Lerner is THE problem. He hired Mangini on HIS own, without the benefit of allowing an Exec. VP and/or GM-doing exactly the same thing he did with the absurd Crennel/Savage hires. Lerner is beyond bad judgement, he is incapable and will not position this organization with a legitimate NFL operation.
Lerner will NOT learn-he is what he is. When I say Mangini will be one and out, that’s also a statement in regards to Lerner. Lerner won’t get ANOTHER chance to do this over, either by this town or the NFL-he will be FORCED to sell. Lerner won’t face public, Kokinis is not allowed to face the public-Mangini IS the entire operation. (NO Exec. VP/NO GM/”NO” owner).
Take the logicial viewpoint that you want this team to become an NFL operation and move forward. Take your emtions out of what you are seeing today (short term). Think about how a prolonged course gone awry will not only detour the ship in the short term, but how much compounding that course will deepen the hole.
I believe ULTIMATELY Browns fans will in the majority see what’s going on (down) and DEMAND as CUSTOMERS that Lerner move on. Just watch how things play out as this “runnaway train” deteriorates THIS season.
@ # 8 NO THIS IS LERNER’S LAST STAND BECAUSE HE AS AN OWNER CAN BE VOTED OUT BECAUSE THE FACT THAT HE OWNS THE TEAM WITH HIS OWN MONEY IS TRIVIAL AND MEANINGLESS WE TRUE FANS CAN OVERCOME HIM AND GET OUR TEAM BACK WITH A NEW OWNER AND BOOK IT AND SHAPETTI AND I CAN’T BREATHE THIS SENTENCE IS SO LONG AND I LOVE LEBRON!
With all respect to Denny, I am curious to know–seriously–how you feel the fanbase can actually affect a change in ownership, Isis. Are you privy to some loophole in the cosmos that would allow the Browns’ fans to simply petition a BILLIONAIRE to sell his team?
Whether you like it or not, the Browns make money for Lerner. He may be a lousy owner, but he’s a smart enough businessman that he won’t just sell off an asset that makes him money for no reason.
Fans not going to see the team means nothing to Lerners bank account. The owners get a vast majority of their NFL revenue from the massive TV contract. Plus the CBA has a lot of revenue sharing between teams.
I love the sarcasm font.
DP,
By not buying tickets, merchandise, etc or watching games on TV (ad revenue). It won’t explicitly force him to sell the team, but might cause him to notice something needs to change.
But, this is the NFL so that’s not going to happen. Realistically, selling now might be a smart move with the upcoming potential work stoppage. The franchise still has a ton of value.
Brad in ATL,
I am an ignorant guesser on these things. Please point me to a source upon which you are relying for your statement. I always feel out-informed by everyone else.
While I can imagine that you are right, I can also imagine that revenues attributable to Browns fans are enough of a chunk of the pie to tip the scales, either for Lerner’s own decisions or for the league’s decisions concerning Lerner.
help.
Brad,
Lets say each fan spends $100 on average when going to a game.
73,000 fans * $100 * 8 games = $30million
You’re telling me he wouldn’t notice that?
“You’re telling me he wouldn’t notice that?”
Notice what?
Amen #9. Worst QB rating in that time span: Anderson. 2nd worst: Matt Hasselbeck. 3rd worst: Quinn. Way to make a point in the absolute most disingenuous method possible, Rumors and Rants.
2 things:
1) I have to say I agree with Isis in that I do believe that Lerner is in such a position, given both who he is, and who the Browns are, that I think that the public could organize in a manner so as to make him want to sell the team.
2) As for the “win-now move” to start Anderson, that’s better viewed as a “save $11 million” move, because that’s what Quinn stands to earn via incentives if he takes 70% of the snaps. Which raises two questions: First, have you seen anything out of Quinn, even with the deck stacked against him, that justifies giving him that kind of money this year? Hell, let Anderson take 31% of the snaps then let Quinn back in there, if your concerned about development. The second question here is, shucks, didn’t Quinn look like he might have been playing not to lose $11M rather than playing to win football games? And if that’s so, is that the kind of guy you want leading your football team?
AND 3) Thanks for the headline, fellas. Much appreciated.
Isis – do you live in Cleveland/Cleveland area? If so, I’d be honored to buy you a beer IF Mangini is let go after the season. There is NO WAY he’s let go one year into a 5 year contract. Give the man time to try and right the ship man.
@#18 – So you’re suggesting that Lerner would notice if NOBODY WENT TO THE GAME. NOBODY!!??!! THE WHOLE SEASON??
Yeah, that’ll happen.
Intelligent comment King, thanks for that observation. Clearly I was implying that ZERO fans should go to a game.
Assume $50 million profit (see below, and clearly my $100/person guess was off). If 60k show up for every game (instead of 73k), that’s $10 million lost, dropping profits 20%. Don’t tell me that wouldn’t be noticed.
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http://www.wlox.com/Global/story.asp?S=11125645
TV revenue: $94 mill
Ticket+concession: $59 mill
Direct TV: $22 mill
Operating costs: $125 mill
sorry to burst a bubble, but they still have sold a ton of tickets so far. maybe next year you guys can organize people to not buy tickets, but once you buy it it doesnt really metter if your there or not.