The Full Story on George Kokinis…For Now
Written By: Scott | Category: Cleveland Browns | Comments: 133
The reports of George Kokinis and the Browns parting ways was an interesting development to say the least. Rumors versus confirmed reports seemed to dual for hours. Our head coach seemingly knew that all of this was unfolding during his press conference, yet said nothing. And now we have reports of a new GM already being in place?
Let us take a step back and see exactly what happened, at least from a standpoint of what we know versus what we think, mixed in with a little bit of what is still to come.
Flash back to the media circus that immediately followed the Browns loss to the Bears. Randy Lerner was spotted in the tunnel multiple times, giving his team and front office alleged death stares. Lerner was quited as saying that he would use these next two weeks to do a complete analysis of the team as well as some “soul searching.”
Well, it is now apparent that said “soul searching” did not take too long as we caught wind of rumors that team general manager (at least on paper) George Kokinis had been escorted out of the team facility.
Once these rumors were released, the mill could not have swirled any faster. Mike Florio from ProFootballTalk was all over the situation that ranged from consultants being in the building for over a week to attempt to dig up information that would result in a probable cause for termination all the way to the team refusing to comment on whether or not Kokinis had been effectively “fired.”
In fact, here is the official team release on the matter:
“Cleveland Browns General Manager George Kokinis is no longer actively involved with the organization. In response to rumors and reports that Kokinis was escorted out of the building today, the Browns deny those reports. In the interest of protecting the parties involved we will withhold further comment.”
Careful choice of words, no? No longer actively involved? Seems that this is code for “Is currently being paid, but we’re trying our hardest to get him to resign.”
Notice that they are also denying that he was escorted out of the building.
Blogs took off with the story. The Score. Midwest Sports Fans. No Logo Needed.
Adam Schefter and Chris Mortensen later reported that while Kokinis would not succumb to a resignation, the team is desperately searching for termination with cause. Jay Glazer quickly followed by saying that there was indeed cause, though no details were released.
Of course, this “cause” will likely be debated amongst all parties as no one likes to be the fall guy. If there is any number less than “no one,” that is how many people like to be the fall guy without being compensated for it.
And it is this fall guy approach that appears to be the basis for all of this moving and shaking.
When the news hit last night that Kokinis had been relieved of his duties, my wife quickly stated that it was like someone just reminded Randy Lerner that he owned an NFL franchise. I posted this note on Twitter and it quickly received a few laughs, but it is sadly true.
We go years of putrid football and now Lerner decides to hang out in the tunnel and start firing front office members mid-season?
It is becoming more evident that while Eric Mangini hand picked George Kokinis that the two became not-so friendly through the season. There are rumors – though unfounded – that Kokinis was completely unaware that Braylon Edwards had been traded, and found out about the trade while watching television.
To get Kokinis from Baltimore, the Browns had to guarantee that Kokinis was going to have final say on the 53-man roster; something that obviously was not the case. Alas, while Randy Lerner is sending a message to this management team, he is doing so by firing a guy that apparently had no say in any of the moves that have led to what is now a 1-7 football team with the worst starting quarterback in the NFL.
SI’s Peter King has gone on record to say that Kokinis was unhappy in Cleveland. Could he have done something that actually violated his agreement with the Browns that is not being reported as of now? Glazer thinks so. Apparently, Lerner hopes so. Otherwise, it could be another check being cut for the next few years.
So where do we go from here?
We heard that the Browns had been in talks with long-time front office warrior Ernie Accorsi. The News-Herald reported that Accorsi had already been named interim GM. Apparently, this was all news to Accorsi who stated that he is “not taking a GM job anywhere, period.”
But this doesn’t mean that Accorsi won’t at least have some sort of advisory role with the team as it looks to get back on its feet. Other outlets are reporting that Accorsi may actually be grooming Bernie Kosar for a larger role within the organization – whether that be a general manager role or simply the infamous “other set of eyes.”
Several theories remain. One strong one is that Eric Mangini is obviously being but on notice in terms of accountability. He has already tossed his hand-picked GM under the bus and could very well be following if this ship is not righted. Thinking is that the next GM put in place will (once again) want to start over and rid the Browns of Mangini. But if the team cannot rightfully relieve Mangini of his duties, will Lerner be willing to add on to $20 million that he’s paying other former front office personnel?
There is no telling if anything elsewill occur between now and next Monday. What we do know is that George Kokinis’ tenure in Cleveland may be historical in how short it was. Whether or not the team can justify a firing without pay will remain to be seen. And while firing people will not make our 1-7 record any better, at least it shows a pulse in Berea – whether that pulse is dysfunctional or not.
Eric Mangini’s press conference is today at 10:30 AM. We’ll follow up later today with his likely-dodged questions regarding this matter.
Stay tuned, kids. This could be a wild second half.
Author: Scott
Scott is a co-founder/editor of Waiting For Next Year who resides in Cleveland, Ohio. Feel free to follow him on Twitter or email him at scott@waitingfornextyear.com.Scott has written 1701 articles for Waiting for Next Year.
That is the most nightmare-fueled love triangle ever. I’m not going to be able to sleep tonight. Thanks guys.
Great video. I hate Tony Rizzo for getting me hooked on it!
Channeling his inner Magneto
The Browns are the best. I just want it to keep getting worse, and they never let me down.
It is hillarious that the Browns (and maybe the Raiders) are the only team that is more entertaining during the week than on Sundays.
Now a grooming of Kosar — I could live with that. It would allow him on-the-job training without the head-on-the-platter status.
Hey, wonder what Ron Wolfe is doing nowadays? Let’s give him a call and circle back to the days of 2004 all over again.
You guys still don’t get it. Mangini is GONE.
What didn’t you understand about the meaning of the word consultant that was hired several weeks ago? What don’t you understand that Lerner has already been investigating BOTH Kokinis and Mangini to try and find conduct detrimental to their contracts. What don’t you understand that regardless of who is put in place (finally), Mangini won’t be part of the process moving forward. What don’t you understand that with Erin O’brien and Kokinis now gone, Mangini has been NEUTERED?
Cmon guys…….enough. Lerner is working a process to FORCE Mangini out at the least cost alternative. It’s over. And for those who wrote week by week that DA was playing over BQ because he was a better option, forget that-you’ll see this all come out in the water soon enough. Isn’t it time now to OBSERVE?????
It seems suspicious that Mangini’s personal assistant was fired then Kokinis, in the matter of days. Possible affair between the two? Who knows. I do know that our draft could be totally screwed (AGAIN) in Kokinis wanted guys like Bryan Orakpo/Sanchez/Crabtree/Impact player at #5, or say he makes the trade but wants to take Mack, Maualuga, MoMass, and one of the pretty good LB’s on the board.
I just hope this doesn’t end up screwing us for another 5 years because of wasted picks when good players could’ve been had.
The only thing we don’t know is if Kokinis was driven out do to conduct detrimental to his contract terms (ie he was hired to be a GM, not a flunkie who wasn’t allowed to communicate) or if a negotation was reached-there is no way he was or will be paid his full contract value. Same thing is going on with Fatgini-OBSERVE.
Cmon S-Dub, OBSERVE. Sheesh….an affair, give me a freakin’ break. When was the last time you saw or heard Kokinis? Erin O’brien was given the title of Director of Operations, for crying out loud. Don’t you see what’s going on man? OBSERVE.
I love how that guy is mashing the keyboard!!!
@ Isis — To fire a coach within the first year of his duties is bad for a team. I know you’re not a Mangini fan, and I am not either, but what coach in their right mind would want to come here once he sees what kind of “support” staff he has to look forward to?
But supposing it happens, who is next?
Isis Why don’t you OBSERVE and shut the hell up for once. You’re spewing this garbage all over the place like you work in the damn front office and you don’t know a freaking thing. I gave it as a possibility, didn’t say it happened. For ANYONE to say it wasn’t a possibility is just dumb because the firings happened within a few days of each other and now their claiming there was a “cause” other than just bad performance. If there’s a cause it has to be something that Kokinis did that was detrimental to the organization. You remedial son of a bitch.
Man, Isis is driving home his Observe point.
Good morning Isis; I see you’re chipper as always!
I = lacking photoshop skills but I’d like to nominate this picture as the official “Observe” picture to go with the official “Book It” picture. I vote to just cut off the “Seth Rogen/Observe and Report/April 10″ and just have it be the image of Rogen with “Observe” at the top.
http://www.dads.ie/gads/gpics/observe_and_report_ver4.jpg
Isis, I thought we could “book it” that Lerner was going to sell the team. Doesn’t make sense for an owner to saddle potential buyers with a bunch of ex-coaches and front office people to pay off.
Isis I agree with you, but man you make it so hard to. You are sooooooooo annoying. WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSE TO OBSERVE??? We are fans we OBSERVE all the time!!! What do you want a big cookie, or something? Congrats to you Isis, you predicted that we suck, and Mangini and Kokinis will fail. You are not a true fan Isis, you root for the team to be miserable so you can get on this site and tell everyone na na na na na like a 5 year old!! I wanted the team to succeed so that we can be proud.
@ Jeremy — I don’t know dude, to say a president will fail is not hoping that he will. I mean, Liberals will tell us that is what Republicans want with Obama, just as Republicans say that is what Liberals wanted with Bush, but we’re above that here, on this Cleveland Sports Fan Forum, right?!?
People, he just does this to get a rise out of you. Stop letting him fire you up with his b.s., really.
I’ve let him get me fired up in the past, now I just scroll past his little rants without a glance. It makes my coffee taste better in the morning.
Chris I think you just need to observe man.. really.
/sarcasm
I vote some people learn to discuss things with some civility instead of being condescending and combative and having their point lost among their own smugness while inciting anger and frustration in most everyone they interact with. But, since there’s clearly no hope of that, let’s go with the “observe” picture idea Joseph has proposed.
S-Dub, I think your theory is interesting given the scant details we’ve heard. It has merit, particularly since none of us is personally involved with what’s happening in Berea.
This is the most interesting thing that’s happened to the Browns for the last 2 years. At least there is the possibility of potential now.
Just keep remembering people … Swig is the man, and he’s done everything in his power to make the commenting in the site better for everyone
@B-bo, YOU CAN’T TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE. YOU’RE NOT EVEN MY REAL DAD!!
We need our own reality show with how awesome we are with football drama.
@ oribiasi- you know Isis wanted Mangini to fail. If he didn’t, Isis would be crucified here. He/she is more worried about booking it, and observing than he is the success of the Cleveland teams. I gave Isis props for calling it. Especially when I didn’t think Lerner had it in him. Isis just has to take it too far and annoy everyone. That shows you he has an agenda.
If Accorsi’s assistance got us the current regime in the first place, I’m not sure I’d want him running things anyway. Short of Ozzie leaving Bmore to take over here, there aren’t too many potential GM names that would get me all that excited.
Observe is just a synonym for Witness!
Go Cavs!
I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU, SWIG! I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU!!
/80sPSA’d
@ Jeremy — I appreciate what you have to say, but I don’t think anyone other than the poster can really legitimately speak to their intentions. You may be right; he may have wanted the Browns in general to look like idiots, and if so, he should be quite happy now. But honestly, we cannot make that determination.
I agree, however, with what you’re saying about him going a little too far. But, presuming he is actually a fan and not some jerk who wants us to fail, then think about this: we’re all disappointed, angry and bewildered that our team(s) suck at times, sometimes way more than the amount of talent we were led to believe they possess. Maybe his “observe” and “book its” are just his way of dealing with it; we all love to gripe (as he does about our teams, as you do about him and as I did about you) so at least we can all agree on that.
Side note — you can’t deny the man doesn’t have some kind of ESP or something to know some of the stuff he seems to know. Maybe its just good odds to be negative about Cleveland sports, lol.
I know Bernie has personal baggage, but that guy is very smart. He knows football, and I think he can be a good GM.
Question: Who is making personnel moves until a new GM is hired?
Fair enough oibiasi. I can respect that.
# Schrute — God help us if its Mangini
Not that much can be done post-trade deadline, but this year’s draft makes me worried.
@15 – Joseph:
http://i36.tinypic.com/2z6ifwl.jpg
Isis changes his slogan weekly…just don’t pay attention.
I think it’s obvious that Lerner has Aston Villa in a position where he is happy with the team and has finally taken the time to realize that the Browns are an absolute mess and he is conjuring bad memories and feelings towards the Lerner name. Looks like he may start taking the Browns seriously for once. What a welcome change that would be.
OK, anybody clue me in on how to get an image to appear in a comment as an image and not a link? [img] code doesn’t seem to cut it, HTML disappears. Sorry for the stupid question, I’m missing something here…
LMAO@ RobGoBlue@#28 – Good stuff.
I’m to the point where I hope the Browns drama never ends. I’ve never laughed so much in my life as I have in the past month reading the comments on here. Here’s to 10 more years of futility!!!
(Actually, I’d give it all up for a respectable football team
)
@#7…Anderson was playing over Quinn because of money. Plain and simple. Now that Quinn’s $11 million escalator is unreachable, he will be behind center after the bye week.
@ BrianRut4 — I heard, and this is rumor so watch out — but I heard that Quinn challenged the play calling (like everyone else in Cuyahoga County) and he was benched due to it. No idea if this is true, but I am guessing it is a combination of the two (i.e., play calling argument + money = no playing time).
@35
That is awesome! I owe you a virtual couple of bucks or something. Or maybe a beer.. if we somehow ever met up.
Ahh hell how about a “You rock!”
Re: the possibility of Kokinis having an affair with Mangini’s assistant. Anything’s possible. But barring any evidence or indication of that coming to light, it seems far more likely that this is a case of Lerner isolating Mangini. Of course, I’ve been a huge critic of Randy, and may be giving him too much credit here… but if Scott is right, and Randy’s been awakened here, then these moves make some sense. Remove Mangini’s support network, isolate him, make him 100% accountable for what’s going on–then let him hang himself and/or resign in shame.
I’ll withhold any kudos for Lerner until I see what direction he takes us in and how the next hiring process shakes out, but credit where it’s due–it’s very good to see *something* happening.
@Scott – Love your wife’s comment. So fitting.
@32 Schrute:
“Question: Who is making personnel moves until a new GM is hired?”
The same guy who has been all along.
You didn’t really think Kokinis was the link between the Jets and Browns, didja? =-)
@oribiasi…yea i heard the same rumors. Im guessing Quinn’s challenging of the of the playcalling gave Mangini an excuse sit him until the bye, but there is no doubt in my mind that the underlying reason is the cashola. Follow the money…
Plus, Brady is an intelligent guy. Im sure he realized that after he was initially yanked, they were not going to allow him to reach those incentives. He saw the writing on the wally, and this realization may have lead to him openly question the Mangenius.
wall*
This just clicked in my mind so I’m throwing it out there..
Mangini and Kokinis are being or have been investigated over the past month according to the ESPN article. Could it be possible that maybe part of this investigation deals with the possibility of Kokinis advising Mangini to bench Quinn to save this $11 million?
Obviously I could be way off and I hope I am but just a thought..
@39 BrianRut4:
“Anderson was playing over Quinn because of money. Plain and simple. Now that Quinn’s $11 million escalator is unreachable, he will be behind center after the bye week.”
I can’t buy this argument for several reasons. First of all, why does Mangini care about how much Quinn would be paid? Lerner certainly doesn’t care, and we all know that he doesn’t meddle in day to day operations anyway… payroll isn’t Mangini’s concern.
Second… everyone points to the money being paid out. I can only assume these people don’t have a business background… Brady Quinn is immensely popular. Quinn sells jerseys, merchandise, puts keisters in the seats. You can’t ignore the revenue portion of the equation and only look at the expense. If there is an argument out there that DA has helped the Browns’ bottom line by starting ahead of Quinn, I’d love to hear it…
Amen, BrianRut4. Money always, always talks. Just think, we could still go 9-7!!!!
Well, it could have been worse, we could have stuck with a lousy GM for 8 years instead of 8 games… What’s done is done, fellow Browns fans. Time to look ahead and hope for the best. I want a team that’s competitive and fun to watch… and while a championship would be nice, I don’t see it happening this decade, so I’ll take progress in any form.
I also think it’s time to give BQ the reins, let him finish the season as the starter, earn his bonus…and hopefully show enough potential for another team (e.g. Oakland) to step in and take him off our hands…then we can start all over again…again
@ Phred — you know what’s better than a massive revenue generating man who you have to pay $11 million to?
A massive revenue generating man who you don’t have to pay $11 million to.
This is what I learned working on the stock market, by the by.
Looks like Lerner has got it made. No matter what happens, he comes up roses. Isn’t he the guy who thought that Mangini should have all this power? Why is he firing a guy who didn’t do anything? We’d all love to have Accorsi; he was a classy, successful guy in a classy organization, but the problems supposedly started with Mangini, and he’s still here. It almost seems like Lerner was looking for cause on everyone, and then fired whomever he could. Which means that Mangini’s only the coach because he’s expensive to fire. Why can’t they take the 11 mil they saved on Quinn and pay Mangini?
This is, of course, now that Lerner wants to blow things up. I personally wanted to see him give Mangini another year.
@Phred…
You think Mangini has no role in payroll/personnel decisions? Is that why we have 10 former Jets on the squad? Lets face it, Mangini has always been the de facto GM. Why wouldnt Mangini care about how much money he has to play with in the offseason? The Browns are already paying Phil and Romeo a significant amount of money stay away. Quinn is not Mangini’s guy, he didnt pick him. If Quinn was not in his future plans, why would the Browns want to waste $11 million on the guy?
@48 Phred: The backup quarterback is ALWAYS the most popular player on the team. The minute Quinn starts playing, people will return the jerseys.
@ oribiasi – True, but also a false premise. Revenue in this case is not static, but related to time (and of course, success) on the field.
@ phred — huh? Quinn sells because he is Quinn. LeBron would sell if he were (GOD FORGIVE US FOR EVEN MENTIONING IT) injured. Quinn sells without playing, and they save $11 million. Seems true, to me.
@53 – I’m not arguing that Mangini isn’t the defacto GM–see my other comments on this very page.
I just don’t buy that he made the DA vs Quinn call based on that factor.
If the decision was made that Quinn wasn’t the guy based on his results, that’s one thing, and it’s entirely different than saying they don’t want to find out because doing so may trigger those escalators, which is the argument so many are presupposing here.
I’m not a Quinn fanboy, but it’s preposterous to suggest that we know what kind of player he is at this point, after only 2.5 games this year (and only one game last year without a broken finger.)
Look at Peyton Manning’s numbers, start for start, over the same early games in his career as Quinn. If he were judged the same way that Quinn is, we wouldn’t be talking about him today.
@56 – “Quinn sells without playing, and they save $11 million. Seems true, to me.”
So if Quinn (or the team) is successful, he doesn’t sell more? Gotcha.
@ phred — well of course he sells more good sir, but $11 million more on a 1-everyothergame team? Not worth the business risk, I’m sure. That’s 11 million more they have in the bank. Gotta think like a crimin–er, I mean, financial expert.
“The backup quarterback is ALWAYS the most popular player on the team. The minute Quinn starts playing, people will return the jerseys.”
The backup QB is not ALWAYS a merchandising phenomenon, sorry. Popular in that the fans want him in, yes. But look at all the controversy over Quinn’s commercials, magazine covers, etc, etc. Sorry, that is NOT the case for backup QBs in general. Criticize him all you want, but the fact remains that he’s a marketable asset, in part due to his movie star looks and being a hometown Browns guy, and to say that they sit him to save on his salary willfully ignores the revenue-generating potential the Browns have in him.
Again, maybe it turns out the kid can’t play and he becomes an utter failure in the NFL. But it’s premature to call that with the limited number of snaps the kid’s taken.
earlier in these comments someone mentioned Mangini having a personal assistant…jeez talk about the most un-fun job on earth.
“well of course he sells more good sir, but $11 million more on a 1-everyothergame team? Not worth the business risk, I’m sure. That’s 11 million more they have in the bank. Gotta think like a crimin–er, I mean, financial expert.”
Perhaps you’re not familiar with the kinds of dollars involved in NFL merchandising, TV advertising, ticket sales, etc, etc.
Let’s look at it from another angle, here. What if Mangini wasn’t really interested in playing all these personnel games? What if Kokinis threw his friend, Mangini, under the bus by effectively skating on all his duties that Mangini would have rather he actually did. What if Kokinis didn’t do his job? Well, then, Mangini would be put in the exact situation we perceive: as a one man shop that is handling the personnel decisions as well as the coaching. Maybe this is the reason that we see the wrong man taking the blame. Can you blame a guy for making less than ideal personnel decisions if they weren’t his to be made and/or he never wanted to make them in the first place? Maybe Mangini felt he hasn’t had the time to spend on coaching as he’s had to also continually evaluate the 53, too. Maybe this is the strife that brewed between the two. If a head coach is hampered by essentially a lame GM, then he’d have no recourse but to grab up the only players he has enough knowledge about whether or not they are the best for the organization.
So…. to restate an earlier question: how the heck do we post an image in a comment here?
I’ve seen it done. If anyone can clue me here, it’d be much appreciated…
#58 Do you really think there is a snowball’s chance in hell that Quinn can be successful with this supporting cast? Brady is the type of QB that could possibly be successful as a facilitator. However, he has ZERO weapons.
You are failing to see at the other side of the coin.
So if Quinn (or the team) is UNsuccessful, he doesn’t sell LESS? Gotcha indeed.
@ phred — are you familair with our (1) record (2) disgruntled fan base (3) lack of on-field performance of said backup QB (4) lack of playing time for backup QB (5) general distrust of fans to ownership/coaches/prally other fans, etc. etc? You think the Browns have a good business model right now, given their sorry state of affairs? Good enough to let $11 million go on a backup QB in the hopes that you make it back, and then some, in a few months of games left? Yikes…
Isis is right about one thing in that there is no way Mangini survives this.
“So…. to restate an earlier question: how the heck do we post an image in a comment here?”
HTML
BrianRut4, I’m worried BQ might not be safely under that 70% yet. If he plays the last eight games, that will give him approximately 65% of the snaps (10.5/16). Now due to DA’s awful play, the number of snaps that the Browns took during DA’s games are most likely, far below average. Now I know it is a long shot, but if BQ is able to come in and provide any kind of offensive efficiency, he might start pushing that 70% level. I guess Mangini could just bench him again but I don’t think it would look good in the free agent market if there was obvious proof that the team was benching players to prevent paying performance based incentives. Then again, it doesn’t look good in the free agent market when you are fining players for not paying for a bottle of water, and that still happened.
@54- I think we’ve all seen enough of Anderson. If Quinn starts and we still lose.. It’s better than having a QB go 2-17 for what was it 19 yards? Or have the worst rated QB in the league… That little quote of yours isn’t always true.. You think Brunell is more popular than Brees in Nahlens? Or Sorgi?
“Do you really think there is a snowball’s chance in hell that Quinn can be successful with this supporting cast?”
I DON’T KNOW.
What I do know, is that it is foolish to draft a 1st round QB, then refuse to let him play through a wasted season to see if he can learn or not.
Again, I refer you to Peyton Manning’s first season. Look at his numbers, and then apply the same argument.
@68 Scott – when I tried using the img HTML tags, I got nothing in the comment (see comment #35)
Apparently I’m doing something else wrong?
@BB…Interesting point. My guess is you would see an increased dose of wildcat with Quinn on the sideline for stretches. That being said, i dont anticipate this being an issue.
@#71…You are missing the point. Mangini DIDNT draft Quinn. Polian drafted Manning and had a vested interest in seeing him succeed.
I’m with phred, example
Should be an image above this line
ok, it also cut out my example code using xmp tag
@66 oribiasi –
“are you familair with our (1) record (2) disgruntled fan base (3) lack of on-field performance of said backup QB (4) lack of playing time for backup QB (5) general distrust of fans to ownership/coaches/prally other fans, etc. etc?”
No, I’m not at all familiar with that… I’m just a freaking moron, drooling all over my keyboard right now…
“You think the Browns have a good business model right now,”
You DO realize it’s the NFL’s business model, right? Shared revenue, etc, etc… there isn’t a single team that loses money. Some may not be profitable on occasion, but annual revenues are secondary to franchise appreciation. Whether or not NFL teams make money, or how they do it, isn’t something open to debate. There are countless revenue streams, and to my knowledge, no NFL owner has ever taken a loss upon selling his franchise.
“Good enough to let $11 million go on a backup QB”
Um, how does he get the $11 million if he’s a backup? Isn’t the crux of the benching argument that he’s a backup to AVOID UNLOCKING THE $11 million? Therefore, does he not have to succeed as a starter to get the $11 million? Come on man, rally those brain cells. Use a bit of logic here.
“in the hopes that you make it back, and then some, in a few months of games left? Yikes…”
Last response to this: DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF REVENUES ARE INVOLVED?
And what the hell are you talking about, “make it back… in a few months of games left”? Unless the Browns are being liquidated this season, there are an indefinite number of games left. NFL merchandise isn’t pulled off the market when the season ends. I’m pretty sure I can still buy a Bernie Kosar jersey even today. I’m not so sure you know what you’re talking about in the least at this point. Have a great day!
In Peyton’s first season (16 games) he had a QB rating of 71.2 with a 56.7 completion percentage with 26 TDs and 28 INTs.
This season (which i am counting as Brady’s first playing, because he was hurt last year), in only 4 games Brady has a QB rating of 62.1 with a 59.7 completion percentage with 1 TD and 3 INTs.
Honestly, we don’t have enough data on Quinn to judge. Stick with him for an extended period and see.
“You are missing the point. Mangini DIDNT draft Quinn. Polian drafted Manning and had a vested interest in seeing him succeed.”
A team’s HC has a vested interested in seeing everybody on his roster succeed. His job is to win.
This is the last comment I’m going to make on the BQ contract situation: I have many problems with Mangini, but I’m not stupid enough to believe that he didn’t read Quinn’s contract until halftime of the Baltimore game.
@#77…Whether or not Lerner is “making” money, $11 million is still alot of cash. If you could avoid spending that money, and still see similar results in the win/loss column, it seems like a no brainer.
I believe the “$11 million to a backup” comment was referencing Quinn as a future backup. If Quinn had played 70% of the snaps, sucked, and was destined top become an NFL journeyman, was that a wise investment of $11 million dollars?
Now Quinn will have 8 more games (10.5 total) to prove he is a starting-caliber QB, and it costs the Browns alot less money ($11 million less to be exact) than it would have to give him the last 9 or 10 games this season. Seems like a good business decision in my opinion.
I think I just got a rumor in the eye. There is a pretty significant cloud of them around this post, at least. Also in the picture on the post is looks like Mangini and Kokinis are brothers. NEW CONSPIRACY THEORY IN THE MAKING.
Disclaimer: I’m not arguing that Quinn is the next Peyton–only that most of you would have benched Peyton his first year, if you used the same criteria being applied to Quinn.
Peyton’s QB ratings in his first five starts: 58.6, 51.1, 39.3, 63.2, 66.8. 4 TDs against 12 INTs.
BQ’s QB ratings his first six starts: 104.3, 55.9 (broke finger), 21.3 (left game after starting with broken finger), 74.1, 58.7. 3 TDs against 5 INTs.
Point: not enough of a sample size to see whether the kid can get it done or not, and not enough game time to learn, adapt, adjust… Peyton said it was being left in through the fourth quarter in those bad losses where he learned how to play in the NFL.
Now I’m done.
“If Quinn had played 70% of the snaps, sucked, and was destined top become an NFL journeyman, was that a wise investment of $11 million dollars?”
The $11 million everybody talks about isn’t a signing bonus: there are two escalators based on playing time that affect his base salary for the next two years. We all understand that NFL contracts aren’t guaranteed like baseball or NBA contracts, right? Brady could be cut just like any other NFL player.
Some portion of it may be guaranteed, that’s hard to say without seeing the actual contract language. But base salaries are not, and every report about this issue, to my knowledge, has been about base salaries.
If he did develop into an NFL starting QB, $11 million in salary over a few years could be a bargain. Again, I don’t believe anybody can say, based on what amounts to 5 1/2 games (if you include the two with a broken finger on his throwing hand, I admittedly give him a free pass for those), that the kid is destined to be a journeyman or backup. Very few, if any, NFL QBs can be accurately judged based on results in so few games.
Some thoughts:
1) HTML code for images, starting with a < . From there, use the standard im src= tag, close your quotes, and finish with a >. Just please make sure the image size is limited in width, so as not to flub up the page (the column in the middle with our content is a static width).
2) Re: Quinn and money. phred, you said it yourself: “Again, maybe it turns out the kid can’t play and he becomes an utter failure in the NFL.” Mangini knows this. Anyone worth their salt in business would argue: if you’re already not sure about the outcome, why pay an extra $11 million to find out?
3) The notion of a potential affair is somewhat intriguing. It doesn’t pass the smell test given the timing of Lerner showing up at the game and giving the look o’ death to everyone, but clearly Mangini had strong professional feelings for O’Brien, since he basically shoe-horned her into a new FO position just to make sure she came with him. Perhaps (and I’m totally speculating…) SHE is the one playing both of them. Again, this wouldn’t pass the Occum’s Razor test for why Kokinis was fired, but it would certainly be interesting. And not outside the realm of possibility for this crap-tastic organization.
4) At the end of the day, I think there are two things in play for Lerner. His family name is important to him, and he doesn’t want to squander whatever goodwill there is from the city/fanbase toward his father. He has to have seen himself being villified in the press and by the fans. He’s serving someone up to show the fans he still cares, and he still hears them. Beyond that, to me, this move is purely to put Mangini in a box. Lerner is basically subscribing to Dan Snyder’s theory of completely emasculating his head coach, and I believe it’s being done in an effort to get Mangini to resign this year so Lerner can avoid paying him. I don’t think Mangini survives into next season, but why not pursue all avenues to try to get him to leave of his own accord so you can save some scratch?
5) As for Accorsi, I would give it a rating of “meh”. The one nice thing would be to have a GM in place now would hopefully keep the player scouting and personnel operations moving from NOW forward, so that we aren’t reliant upon someone getting hired in January or February (if they came from a playoff team) trying to get up to speed before the draft. I agree that Bernie should have a bigger role with the team, though I don’t know that he’s ready for prime time as a GM without someone with much more football organizational experience overseeing the entire thing. If that’s Accorsi, again I’d say “meh”, but I’d also say we could do worse.
The $11 million everybody talks about isn’t a signing bonus: there are two escalators based on playing time that affect his base salary for the next two years. We all understand that NFL contracts aren’t guaranteed like baseball or NBA contracts, right? Brady could be cut just like any other NFL player.
True, but if you cut him you take the cap hit. Why make it higher if you don’t have to?
Quinn is also more valuable as trade bait if his contract is more team-friendly to the team trading for him. Why cut him if you could POTENTIALLY (and that was more sarcasm font than emphasis) get something for him?
“True, but if you cut him you take the cap hit. Why make it higher if you don’t have to?”
The 2010 league year has no salary cap. This is the final, uncapped, unfloored year of the current CBA.
In other words, a big reset button for every NFL team to jettison bad contracts.
1) HTML code for images, starting with a . Just please make sure the image size is limited in width, so as not to flub up the page (the column in the middle with our content is a static width).
Thanks, DP… trying again. Should be an image immediately following:
Still a no-go on the image… not sure what I’m doing wrong.
2) Re: Quinn and money. phred, you said it yourself: “Again, maybe it turns out the kid can’t play and he becomes an utter failure in the NFL.” Mangini knows this. Anyone worth their salt in business would argue: if you’re already not sure about the outcome, why pay an extra $11 million to find out?
Well, that’s where the difference of opinion lies. I’m not ready to write someone off after just 3 1/2 healthy games. Same criteria applied by the Colts in 1998, and Peyton Manning never would have made it… see the stats in comment 82.
Comment 82… which is probably not showing up, as I just noticed it says “awaiting moderation.” Not sure what would flag the comment… problem with two NFL.com links or something?
Trying the pic again, right above this line.
Can we just hire Rich Kotite already?
Even if 70% of the snaps are still up for grabs I hope that at least 5% of those go to Josh Cribbs. Then you get to play Quinn and avoid the escalators.
Phred, you keep speaking as if Quinn will never play another snap in a Cleveland uniform. He will get 8 more games to show improvement and it cost the Browns $11 million dollars less than if would have if they gave him 9 more games.
Its not as black and white as you are making it seem. They have not written him off after 3.5 games. They will give him 11.5 games before they do so.
BTW, Peyton Manning had two 300 yard games within his first 4 games as a ROOKIE. Quinn has eclipsed 200 yards only twice in his 6.5 games as a starter.
“True, but if you cut him you take the cap hit. Why make it higher if you don’t have to?”
And I missed the most important point of all in my earlier response to this: only guaranteed bonuses accelerate against the cap.
I don’t recall what those numbers are in BQ’s case, but if our understanding is correct that this $11mil is composed of escalators that increase his future base salary, that would have no effect on the cap–only the remaining unamortized amount of his guaranteed bonuses (mostly comprised of the initial signing bonus, which is amortized on an annual basis over the life of the contract) accelerates into a cap hit.
Base salaries have no effect cap wise, they hit in the year they are paid out, and being that they aren’t guaranteed in most cases, there is no cap acceleration.
Of course, like I noted earlier… there is no salary cap or floor in 2010. There is no way to know what kind of agreement will arise, or if there will be a lockout in 2011, or perhaps even a player strike in 2010 (the union doesn’t appear to have much leverage this time around), but I think it’s a safe bet that the owners are going to make sure they get this “get out of jail free card”, whether they play through a full uncapped year or negotiate some other mechanism to get out from under all the bad contracts currently on the books.
The players are going to have a real eye-opening experience when they realize that the disappearance of the cap this coming year, far from being a free agency windfall, is going to be a huge boon to the owners…
“BTW, Peyton Manning had two 300 yard games within his first 4 games as a ROOKIE. Quinn has eclipsed 200 yards only twice in his 6.5 games as a starter.”
Fair enough. Thank you for bringing that up. I think it further’s Quinn’s case.
Peyton had Marshall Faulk in his 5th year in the league.
Peyton had Marvin Harrison in his 3rd year in the league.
Among others.
Quinn had Butterfingers Edwards and a washed-up Lewis.
The Browns don’t have one single weapon for Quinn to use–the Colts had a foundational offense with future hall-of-famers in place.
“They will give him 11.5 games before they do so. ”
I was unaware that he was named the starter for the rest of the season–apologies if I missed it.
I hope that you’re right and they let the kid play out the string. Let him sink or swim so we know what we’ve got.
But if the rumors are true about Mangini benching Quinn for questioning him in an offensive meeting–which I think we’d all agree, sounds perfectly reasonable based on what we know of Mangini’s personality and methods–and seeing his stubbornness in keeping DA in all season (Quinn’s numbers are undoubtedly better than DA’s), I’m not sure how anyone can assume that BQ will play going forward.
Unless I missed something.
“Peyton had Marshall Faulk in his 5th year in the league.
Peyton had Marvin Harrison in his 3rd year in the league.”
Sorry–very poorly worded on my part. To clarify, Peyton, as a rookie, had an established 5th yr, three-time pro-bowl RB and 3rd yr WR… and still threw three times as many INTs as TDs.
Did I violate a site rule? Asking sincerely here, as I don’t understand why links to NFL.com stat pages would be stripped from a comment? (#82)
does anyone know if quinn’s escalators are based on snaps or actual time (eg, 16 games x 4 quarters = 64 quarters per season x 70% = 45 quarters needed)?
i’m just thinking that with all the 3-and-outs over the start of the season… quinn could still hit his number if it’s all based on snaps. observe.
@phred: “Did I violate a site rule? Asking sincerely here, as I don’t understand why links to NFL.com stat pages would be stripped from a comment?”
Links get caught in moderation – was just cleaner without them as longer ones tend to bump the side columns. I trust that the numbers are correct.
Also, regarding your HTML, I’m not sure what you’re doing. If an image is pertinent to the topic, I’m more than willing to add it in for you.
Thanks for the reply, Scott. I was asking about the image thing more for future reference… earlier I was trying to post the “OBSERVE” pic for another commenter. Thanks for the offer to link it for me, but I really just wanted to know how to do it.
I was using (adding spaces here so the code is visible)
As for the NFL.com links… next time I’ll use a TinyURL or something. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t doing something verboten here. Really wanted to post the complete stats so people could see them. It’s remarkable how poor those early games were for Peyton, and it just drives me nuts when people talk about how horrible Quinn is when I see the comparison laid out, to think they’d have benched the best QB currently in the game…
@#97…im not sure where you are getting your stats, but Manning threw 26 TDs and 28 INTS his rookie year. Hardly “three times as many INTS as TDs”
And if Peyton’s supporting cast was so strong, why did they go 3-13 his rookie year? I feel i need to reiterate, Peyton Manning threw for over 300 yards in his FIRST GAME as an NFL player, and twice accomplished that feat in his first 4 games. I think those kind of performances earned him more rope. Brady and has thrown for a measly 200 yards only twice, in 6+ games.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Wow… even the altered code disappears when posting.
OK, it was just the standard left bracket, img src equals “image address in quotes” followed by closed right bracket. As DP instructed. I think. Standard HTML image tag.
“im not sure where you are getting your stats, but Manning threw 26 TDs and 28 INTS his rookie year. Hardly “three times as many INTS as TDs””
Basic reading comprehension, amigo.
Quinn hasn’t played a full year. I was comparing apples to apples… games started.
Quinn’s first six games: 5 picks, 3 TDs.
Peyton’s first six games: 12 picks, 4 TDs.
(Already posted in comment #82)
Do I need to walk you through the math?
Thanks for making another point though. In spite of that atrocious first six games, Peyton recovered to have a pretty good season. Good thing we took Quinn out before he had that same opportunity, right?
“And if Peyton’s supporting cast was so strong, why did they go 3-13 his rookie year? I feel i need to reiterate, Peyton Manning threw for over 300 yards in his FIRST GAME as an NFL player, and twice accomplished that feat in his first 4 games.”
Marvin Harrison.
Marshall Faulk.
I don’t mean this to be at all offensive, but are you a moron?
That doesn’t qualify as a strong supporting cast? That doesn’t help you get 300yd games? Two hall-of-famers?
As for why they went 3-13… sure there are plenty of reasons. A rookie QB throwing all those picks sure didn’t help any.
Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk don’t account for anything, though? Really, man? What the hell did Quinn have? And yet he put up better stats than Peyton?
I’d love to compare full-season stats, but you’ve already decided Quinn didn’t deserve that chance, so there’s no further games to compare beyond the first six.
I don’t see how there’s anything left to discuss here… hall-of-fame WRs and RBs aren’t a strong supporting cast? Lunacy.
Like deees?
@phreddy…are you just going to completely ignore that fact that manning had two 300 yard performances in his first 4 games? brady quinn may never have a 300 yard game in his entire career. you know why? because he has not attempted a pass more than 15 yards down the field!
Of course Quinn has less interceptions. Put me out there in Orange and Brown and i will have less interceptions than peyton manning, if i take the snap, stand there for a few seconds and get sacked every other play. Personally i find it amazing that Quinn has had 5 picks without throwing the ball downfield a single time. How do you throw 5 picks on hitches and swing passes?
Peyton Manning has a cannon. Brady Quinn has a slingshot.
Peyton’s 1998 game logs, for reference
http://tinyurl.com/yk3wxo4
Quinn’s 2008 (can select ‘09 from there)
http://tinyurl.com/yfbb3bx
Marshall Faulk, 7-time pro-bowler:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FaulMa00.htm
Marvin Harrison, 8-time pro-bowler:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm
I’m sure Quinn has a much better offense to work with here in Cleveland the past two years. Beyond preposterous.
@107 – Peyton caught those passes himself? Please.
@DP – what kind of magic are you working there? I’m clearly missing something with the image code…
Peyton’s 1998 game logs, for reference
http://tinyurl.com/yk3wxo4
Quinn’s 2008 (can select ‘09 from there)
http://tinyurl.com/yfbb3bx
Marshall Faulk, 7-time pro-bowler:
http://tinyurl.com/yz9p5l5
Marvin Harrison, 8-time pro-bowler:
http://tinyurl.com/ykennob
I’m sure Quinn has a much better offense to work with here in Cleveland the past two years. If you don’t think a 5th yr RB (who made the pro bowl in Peyton’s rookie year) and a future HoF WR help put up more yards than Braylon Edwards (trying to work his way out of town) or a Josh Cribbs, I’m sorry, you don’t know football.
@106
Simply awesome LOL. Can you resize it a bit smaller so it is WFNY-post friendly or is that fine?
Harrison had 776 yards receiving in Peytons rookie year, not exactly Pro Bowl numbers (not disputing harrison as a HOFer, just saying he wasnt exactly in his prime yet).
Look dude, you are comparing Brady freaking Quinn to possibly the best QB of all time. Are you honestly trying to tell me that if Manning had been benched in his rookie year, and then given another chance later in his career, he would have been shattered and unable to recover?
Quinn will get his second act. Lets see what he does with it.
I’m with phred I must be missing something too; tried using the “img src” tag but just a blank post.
/End User
“Harrison had 776 yards receiving in Peytons rookie year, not exactly Pro Bowl numbers (not disputing harrison as a HOFer, just saying he wasnt exactly in his prime yet).”
How many games did he play in that year? Go ahead, I’ll wait while you check. Then extrapolate that to a full 16-game season.
I’ll also point out that when a QB has a 300-yd game, he doesn’t *really* throw the ball 300yds. WRs/RBs (side note: Faulk was one of the best all-purpose backs, notorious for his receiving abilities, which also count towards Peyton’s stats–not just Harrison’s) catch the ball, break tackles, and then get yardage. Harrison caught anything you put in the same ZIP code–Braylon pulled his hands in if he heard defenders’ footsteps in the same ZIP code.
Point remains: the quality of your WRs and RBs absolutely helps the QB. Not even debateable. Nor is the comparison of the ‘08-’09 Browns vs the ‘98 Colts.
“Look dude, you are comparing Brady freaking Quinn to possibly the best QB of all time.”
There’s that reading comprehension thing again. EXPLICITLY STATED in several posts that I wasn’t drawing an equivalency between the two–simply pointing out that based on the limited sample size you would have benched Peyton. Go ahead, check my earlier comments… I think you’ll find that at least twice, maybe three times in this thread.
I don’t think there’s any discussion to continue here… I’m trying to compare apples to apples (six games to six games), and you’re using full seasons. Try to point out differences in talent, you tell me Harrison and Faulk aren’t a good supporting cast. Point out Harrison’s credentials, you conveniently ignore that he missed games that season.
The point, through all of that, is this: Peyton looked horrible in his first six games. His stats were worse than Quinn’s, in spit of the supporting cast, including a RB having his third pro-bowl year. I can’t believe how you’ve even got me going on about Quinn, because like I pointed out in the beginning, I’m not even a Quinn supporter–I just don’t want to waste another first round pick that should be used on an elite LB or S if we don’t even give the current kid a chance to see if he can even be a serviceable game manager. Peyton finished the year much better than he started, and Quinn needs to be given that chance as well–even if he has already been handicapped by missing out on so many training camp reps (thanks, Mangini) and mismanaged during the season (again, read Peyton’s comments about when the learning experiences were for him–Mangini pulled the rug out from under BQ in game 3.)
With that, I’m withdrawing from this discussion, I hope amicably.
Will check back, though, hopeful for image-posting tutorials for us slow folks.
MattyFos FORMERLY Glorious Basterd
Comparisons aren’t worth their weight in… turd pants. I understand what Phred is saying. He, like all of us, know in order to progress in a season or a career you NEED to get reps. Get the speed of the game. Learn through failure. Phred is saying don’t write off Quinn though these (6+) games. The Colts didn’t write off Peyton through these (6) games. Then he is giving us reasons why he feels the way he does. DUH. Another thing to look at… Aikman started his career 0-15. I’m glad all of these anti-Quinn people aren’t Jimmie Johnson. Let the kid play. I believe we’re all tired of seeing Anderson. If we weren’t we wouldn’t be having these Quinn v.s. Anderson arguments EVERY week… Now looking ahead.
After the Bye week would be the best choice to start Quinn.. Two weeks of preperation. Against an aging Baltimore D that has given up 14pts or more in 5 of their 7 games… Cleveland 3 and Denver 7 were the other two… Then again.. it’s Baltimore and they are a hard hitting, blitz friendly team with ball hogs that could make it a very long day for Quinn. If he gets the start.
Baltimore is averaging almost 20 points per game. 19.7 ish
@99 jimkanicki – does anyone know if quinn’s escalators are based on snaps or actual time (eg, 16 games x 4 quarters = 64 quarters per season x 70% = 45 quarters needed)?”
There are two escalators involved. The one everyone is focusing on is 70% of offensive snaps.
Like somebody else pointed out, they could use Cribbs in wildcat formation to limit that if it were a concern.
Trying the image thing again. Also, this is a smaller version, so if any of you want to use it for your Isis responses, feel free. OBSERVE:
Image should be just above this line.
Here’s the link in case you want the pic and I still don’t have it right:
http://i38.tinypic.com/2qd9atu.jpg
@ phred – FWIW, I’ve had a lot of issues trying to embed pictures from twitpic, yfrog, tinypic, etc – seems these sites don’t always work well with embedding. That may be the issue.
Trying again:
http://i38.tinypic.com/2qd9atu.jpg
@Denny: I thought that might be the case, but DP’s got the TinyPIC host showing up in #106.
Determined to figure this out… p—ing me off at this point.
Trying a direct link elsewhere, just to verify that I’m coding it wrong.:
phred:
Chris made a post in the “brown out” thread and put this link in; exact same picture but done in Browns colors LOL.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2522/4071855823_01c259fa4b_m.jpg
Something has to be missing from the instructions…
No matter how I use the *img src=”link”* (asterisks subbing for , so this shows up, obviously) tag, nothing shows up, and the code disappears.
I’ve gone further and tried couching it within *html* tags, no go. Tried the [img] version used on some forums, too. Can’t get a darned thing to show up.
@122 Joseph -
“Chris made a post in the “brown out” thread and put this link in; exact same picture but done in Browns colors LOL.”
That’s sweet. Thanks for the heads up.
#118, that’s very true about limiting snaps with the wildcat formation, but how would you feel about that if you were Brady Quinn? I’d feel like I was getting screwed over… the whole reason to put escalators in a contract is to also give the player a fair chance to reach them. Would you try very hard for a team that was possibly sabotaging its season and your contract in order to save money?
@125 P@:
Absolutely agree. Was just noting somebody else’s earlier comment, that if that’s what the team really wanted, it was within their ability to control even if Quinn were the starter.
All in all, I don’t buy the argument that the contract escalators were the issue at all. For all his leadership, coaching, and communication problems, Mangini is absolutely a smart guy. Unless he didn’t read Quinn’s contract until halftime in Baltimore during gm3, he knew what the escalators were. If they were an issue, DA would have been declared the starter from the beginning. It doesn’t make sense otherwise… it would have been easy to let DA burn off at least 30% of the season’s estimated snaps and then put Quinn in. The whole argument about Quinn’s escalators keeping him benched is a red herring… the money has never stopped Lerner from paying fired HCs and GMs for years, for cutting players with some of the worst contracts in NFL history (genius Phil Savage, the only GM to ever guarantee roster bonuses in contract language!)… and they can alway cut Quinn to save money if he doesn’t work out (unless those base salaries are fully guaranteed, which would be an extreme rarity in the NFL.)
That said, I place most of the blame for the situation on Quinn himself. Had he gotten himself into his first training camp on time, he’d have had a very good shot at winning the starting gig as a rookie (Charlie Frye?!) and maybe we’re never even having these discussions. But regardless of those circumstances, when they decided to go with him this year, then then needed to develop him. What the Browns have done is not how you develop a successful QB. If anyone can show me one solid NFL QB that was developed using the Mangini method we’ve seen on display this year, I’ll eat my hat.
Another thing about the pictures… just grasping at straws here, but do commenters typically post them? Is it possible only admins’ code works when posted?
OK, this pic was already posted in another thread by an admin. Maybe this will show for me:
Well, it looks to me like perhaps only admins can post pics within comments. I downloaded the page and copied the line of code directly, linking to the same pic that shows in the other discussion, and it still disappears.
@125/126 — i was just saying that if it’s based on actual snaps, this offense hasn’t really set the bar too high (because they haven’t been able to run more than three plays in a drive for the most part)… quinn could still get his $$$ if he can keep the offense on the field for the rest of the season.
it’s complete sidebar convo.
back to the subject at hand:
i’m predicting we hire a GM over this week and he installs a new coach or puts rob ryan in charge to finish the season. i mean seriously… mangini can no longer coach here.
@125/126/129,
I think the wildcat has been our most successful formation this year. I’d hardly call that sabotage.
I call the TV movie rights.
DP any chance we can get Observe and Book It??
I keep waiting for someone named Larry to post just so I can reply with “Do you see, Larry? Do you see what happens? Do you see what happens when [and the rest is not appropriate for this site].”