The 5-Hole: Blue Jackets News and Notes – 12/14/2010
December 14, 2010Akron Aeros Introduce the Three Dog Night (With Updated Calorie Count)
December 15, 2010While We’re Waiting serves as the early morning gathering of WFNY-esque information for your viewing pleasure. Have something you think we should see? Send it to our tips email at tips@waitingfornextyear.com.
Well, well. Hold off on those ’09 draft grades- “The Browns juggled their roster Tuesday when they waived defensive back Eric King and promoted cornerback Coye Francies from the practice squad.” [News Herald]
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Jim Tressel on Sugar Bowl prep. [Eleven Warriors]
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Analyzing Ohio State’s D-Line- “In the loss at Wisconsin, it was clear that the defense didn’t have enough gas in the tank to slow down the devastating Badger ground game at the most crucial points in the second half. To put it bluntly, they got steamrolled, and that can be traced directly back to depth and fresh legs along the defensive line.” [Buckeye Battle Cry]
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Predictable- Toni Grossi second guessing Eric Mangini. More predictable- Pete ripping Grossi for it. [Cleveland Frowns]
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Hey LaPorta, there’s a hole. No, in your swing. [Let’s Go Tribe] With impressive charts. Real data!
(Photo by Matt Sullivan/Getty Images)
33 Comments
Yes, Frowns defense of Mangini at all costs is predictable. However, his observations on Grossi are spot on. The growth of well written, insightful blogs has only served to illuminate what a joke Grossi and the PD are. Grossi analysis is weak and comes off as spiteful to Mangini. Ok, so his analysis weak but he has access so that should bring us, the readers, something right? Not in this case. If he has inside info, I’ve never seen it. Frowns is 100% right in pointing out what a disaster Grossi is. It’s hard not to read in between the lines to see Grossi’s joy when the Browns lose and his contempt when they win. This is the best the PD has to offer?
I have a feeling the Coye Francies era will not go well but it will be very entertaining.
Grossi simply makes arbitrary, inflammatory statements about Mangini’s future employment status, and doesn’t feel like offering anything in the way of insight to back up his claims. You could talk about schedule strength, margin of improvement of points for/points against, or any number of things pointing to improvement, but Grossi debunks it and says nothing matters but wins and losses. I might actually believe him if I hadn’t, you know, actually watched every game for myself.
The wins will matter at some point, but they aren’t as important right now, as Holmgren has even come out said himself.
Until Grossi provides something in the way of logical reason, all he offers is hot air and a witch hunt.
I find the herd-mentality animus against Tony Grossi to be hilarious. Frowns is going off the deep end in his mission to discredit a decent sports journalist who has had the audacity to be critical of a largely unsuccessful football coach with below average media-relations skills. Someone send Frowns a copy of Moby Dick (can even be a comic, Major League style) so he can see what happened to Ahab when he got drawn too deeply into his obsessive quest
Hell yes Francies!
@humboldt – Grossi can be critical all he wants. But he has to back it up with something. When I read WFNY, I don’t always agree with each writer’s opinion on everything but I know it will usually be a well reasoned argument. Same with Frowns. I think he is a bit off the deep end in his support for Mangini but he makes an argument and defends it. I defy you to show where Grossi does that. He clearly has some sort of contempt for Mangini which seems to be driving his idea the Mangini needs to win 9 games to keep his job. And that’s all he says! Are the Browns better this year? Have they shown improvement? You would have no idea on any of these things because Grossi doesn’t address them.
I am not a part any, “herd-mentality.” I sit and watch the games and read a variety of sites for their takes on the Browns. It’s pretty obvious the Grossi gives some of the worst analysis out there. Coming from the biggest media outlet with the most access, thats just sad.
I admit, I don’t read much of Grossi’s stuff, but from what I do know about him, I think he might be a little too grizzled for the job. There’s a generation of Cleveland writers (the Scott Raab era, let’s say) that has basically lived their entire lives through the Cleveland title drought, and the city’s decline, and they run the risk of slipping into perpetual bitterness that clouds their ability to clearly evaluate the teams and their performances.
Essentially, I’m saying that there are some writers that are so bitter about the decades of losing that they have absolutely no patience when presented with short-term challenges.
Any reasonable fan can see that with a couple rookie additions, a great trade, the subtraction of two bad QBs and the removal of one diva wide receiver, this team is way better than last year’s team.
Have their been bad games? Yes. Have the browns gotten some bad breaks? Yup. However, our expectations were so low after last year, and I just don’t think people remember how bad it was. Plus, the winning streak at the end of the year was largely against teams that were mailing it in (with the exception of the Steelers).
Some of this year’s wins have come against the best teams in the league. I have to laugh when I hear all the talk about the dominance of the Pats and how they’re the Super Bowl favorites…and the Browns trucked them.
This team is moving in the right direction. Let’s not grab the pitchforks and mob the castle of the only pro team in Cleveland that has a CHANCE of success in the next couple years.
“Coming from the biggest media outlet with the most access”
Biggest local outlet, I’ll agree with. Most access? I’m not so sure.
“and they run the risk of slipping into perpetual bitterness that clouds their ability to clearly evaluate the teams and their performances.”
Which is why I’ll take TD and Jon’s Tribe work over anything the PD put out on any given day. Save for the Albert Belle “voice of reason” stuff, of course.
If there was ever anyone trying to instill herd-mentality animus, it would be Mr. Grossi himself doing so towards Coach Mangini!
Look, a veteran beat reporter at a long-respected newspaper has every right to “have the audacity to be critical of a largely unsuccessful football coach with below average media-relations skills” – but only if they actually use some journalistic integrity and skill in doing so. What Grossi does is make speculative judgements with no apparent basis in fact.
If anyone needs to read about the dangers of obsessive quests, it’s Grossi himself.
Wonder if this Francies move has something to do with Sheldon Brown injuring that shoulder again.
@Scott – you would know better than I. But if the PD doesn’t have the most access, what does that say about them?
I still can’t believe how many people are ready to defend a coach on the verge of his second straight 5-11 season, and call anyone who would dare to think the Browns should try a new direction a hack.
IF Mangini comes back, you know that A) Brian Daboll will still be the Offensive Coordinator, and B) there will be a quarterback competition during training camp. Because that’s who this guy is.
I have no idea why people are so ready to crown the guy after a humiliating loss in Buffalo and right in the middle of another wasted season.
FRANCIES WILL MAKE OR BREAK MANGINI’S 2009 DRAFT CLASS!!!!!11!!!1!1
“But if the PD doesn’t have the most access, what does that say about them?”
I’m saying specifically Grossi. You can’t classify the PD as one entity in this instance, just as you can’t group all of the scribes here or ESPN, etc as having identical access. I also think that his lack of inside access leads to a lot of his hostility with the team.
Coye Francies = Andy Marte?
@Mark and Scott – what you guys refer to as “being grizzled” others might call having “wisdom”.
I’m not going to try to defend Grossi from the angry mob’s insistence that he isn’t sufficiently objective, since that in itself is quite a subjective belief. All I can say is that Mangini has thus far been a below average coach who has achieved marginal progress in a modern NFL in which franchises turn around within a year or two. In my opinion, based on his record, his in-game decisions, his tendency to play to not lose, etc, he does not appear to be a super bowl caliber coach. That seems to be the substance of Grossi’s argument as well (mixed in with some aggravation about Mangini’s Belichick-style media skills).
I root for the Browns and Mangini every week, but have lost faith at this stage. Sorry.
@humboldt – I’m not defending one side or the other. Just stating that the access (both personal and employer-level) may not be what it seems. Local Browns scribes have been forced to work very, very hard to get the smallest of informational items.
I find it interesting that my (and others) criticism of Grossi is being construed as support of Mangini. The discussion isn’t about Mangini. If you like Mangini or hate him, it doesn’t mitigate the fact that Grossi is failing his readers by exhibiting a hostility toward the head coach that appears to be completely personal.
And for the record, not that anyone cares what I think, the jury is still out for me on Mangini. There are still 3 games left and I, unlike Grossi, will wait to see how the Browns perform before deciding if I want Mangini back.
@Scott – good point on the access. I’ve made some assumptions that I probably shouldn’t. I guess that just makes it all the more disappointing.
I heard a White House reporter (sorry, can’t remember who) speak about how, in the 70’s, he got frozen out of access after writing a critical story. He said he was frustrated but, in the long run, it made him a better reporter as he learned how to find other ways/sources/contacts to get to the story. He was no longer dependent on getting spoon fed stories from the White House. It freed him up to become better at his job. Something Grossi could learn from.
I don’t find him so detestable, but maybe a great football town deserves much better. Listening to him in his podcasts sheds some light on what he actually has bothered to find out and when he’s just pontificating. Seems maybe a little lazy and doesn’t exactly jump to get leads or insights. Windy’s podcasts, by comparison, showed he was an aggressive reporter always digging and ahead of his readers.
Remember that Grossi was suspended from the Browns beat in the Modell era for reporting something about Modell at a game when Modell was not present. Something he reported without bothering to verify. I don’t think he’s bitter. More likely he learned to do this job with no competition after the Cleveland Press folded, and now with internet competition he’s analog in a digital age.
I agree with Mark. Frowns has an irrational resistance to any argument against Mangini, but he is correct in that Grossi is hardly more qualified to cover the Browns than any writer or poster on this website.
Regarding Mangini, I don’t think we should bring him back. All I see is inconsistency, and I find it hard to support any claim that we have made progress when we beat the Patriots but lose to the Bills. This reminds me of the season when the Browns destroyed the undefeated Gigantes 35-14 on Monday Night Football back in 2008 and then still lost to the worst teams in the league under Romeo.
Here are the teams that have been eliminated from the playoffs:
Bills, Bengals, Browns, Broncos, Redskins, Vikings, Cowboys, Lions, and Panthers. Three have already fired coaches (Broncos, Vikings, Cowboys), two more will most likely let their coaches walk after the season (Bengals, Panthers), and two recently replaced their coaches (Bills, Redskins). Are we ready to stick with Mangini given his inability to make progress?
@ Humboldt. Don’t know what to make of Mangini yet myself but …
Your statement “Belichick-style media skills” says volumes. Belichick was crucified here for being more focused on building a football team than being a frontman for the mainstream press and I think some of these guys hate Mangini for his past association w/ BB. Art Modell, a PR exec no less, let the press mob run this team for decades and these guys got spoiled.
Today’s headline from the Akron Beacon Journal says “Mangini’s job on the line.” No evidence whatsoever in the accompanying article to back this statement up. Sheesh.
@3: Yeah, I watched the Brownies all this year and all last year. I don’t care if we went 0-18 this year. The Browns are a million times better and more watchable. Anyone with a set of eyeballs and half a brain can see Mangini has done great things with this team.
@4: Ironic that your statements work for either Grossi+Mangini or Frowns+Grossi.
Honestly, I think Grossi is just pandering to his base. If you ever try to read the comments at the PD (which I recommend against) you will see that for every person who thinks critically and considers the improvement year over year there are 10 who say we’re not superbowl contenders this year, burn the organization to the ground (again).
@ Mark…I’ve gone on a rant before about the “access” problem.
I think the desire to gain direct access to newsmakers in every area of the media is one of the biggest problems with journalism today. As a former reporter, I can say that it is much easier to be nice to newsmakers in exchange for access, and I have fallen into that trap in the past. It is just easier to get news “stright from the horse’s mouth” than to find other sources with relevant information.
I think that the “pontificating” we hear from reports of Grossi’s ilk is the white noise they use to cover up the fact that they haven’t gathered enough information to form an informed opinion on their respective subject. Combine that with the fact that it is absolutely true that scorned reporters can be out for blood when shunned by a newsmaker, and you have a recipe for lazy, irresponsible reporting. I say irresponsible because, as much as people drift away from main stream news such as the PD, Grossi’s calls for Mangini to lose his job, can carry weight with the public.
I don’t have an axe to grind with Grosse, necessarily. I just have an axe to grind with reporters that think direct access is the best way to gather news, when in reality, all you get “directly from the source” is exactly what that source wants you to write.
@Fred, yes, we’ve had this discussion ad nauseum on WFNY. Obviously if Mangini wins his press relations is less of an issue.
But honestly, the Belichek mode of management is becoming dated in an era of increasing openness and transparency (ie. players using twitter, bloggers breaking stories, etc), and is increasingly hard to justify. Just seems like a vestige that lives on in people like Mangini, Josh McDaniels, and others from the Belichek tree. Nice to have a new generation of coaches like Rex Ryan (and his brother of course) who have personalities that connect w/ the fan base. This is another reason Grossi has lobbied for Gruden – the passion he would bring w/ his Sandusky roots
Citing the Bills game as a reason why the Browns need to fire Mangini is not a great way to evaluate the coaching staff’s performance. First off, the team has lost a lot of talent to injuires (including their best QB and a defensive leader in Fujita).
Secondly, one game is hardly a great sample size to use when judging the performance of a team. Guess what? Teams that win the Super Bowl lose random games to inferior teams all the time. You know why? Because the ball bounces in funny ways, and not always in your favor, and even good to great teams have off days.
This team has struggled at times, but they are better than last year, and an upward trend is evidence enough to keep anyone in a job from year to year. Let’s wait to see how the season finishes up before we decide to “burn it all down.”
@ SealedHuman…just because other teams are constantly changing coaches, doesn’t mean the Browns should. many of the teams you listed have been in the same coaching spin cycle as the browns, and it’s not working out for them either. Does that tell you something?
Even the Cowboys…by many accounts, a ‘great’ team…haven’t won a playoff game in over a decade, and they have gone through coaches as quickly as the Browns. The Browns are better this year, and they’ll probably finish with a better record, and with no premier talent other than an emerging Peyton Hillis.
I’m just saying that OVERALL, the team has improved, despite some growning pains in downs games.
I agree with your point, C-Bus, that the Browns should not simply fire a coach because other teams are doing it. My point, however, was that teams that aren’t consistently improving typically look to install a new coach (even teams that are better than the Browns). I think we clearly disagree on whether the Browns have improved. I wouldn’t call the Bills game “growing pains,” but I understand that you might see it that way.
I understand the reluctance to start with a new coach in a new system, but I also don’t see any evidence that sticking with a coach who isn’t clearly making strides helps the cause. Marvin Lewis and John Fox are largely considered great coaches, but their teams have been inconsistent at best. The fact that those organizations have stuck by those coaches has not put them in a position to be better than the Browns. My point here is that there is just as much risk sticking with an unproven coach as there is hiring a new coach. I know there are no guarantees that someone like Gruden will turn the Browns into a winner, but at the same time there is no guarantee that we are on the right track now. We have no evidence to believe that we are making progress when the worst team in the league prevents us from crossing midfield. If we have enough talent to dominate the Patriots and Saints, we have enough talent to at least put up a fight against the Bills in the second half.
SealedHuman…I accept your offer to agree to disagree. However, if the outlook for the team is no different with either Mangini or another coach in charge, then what’s the point of switching. That sounds like an argument to switch just for the sake of “shaking things up.”
I guess what I’m saying is that the Browns situation is different from say, the Bengals. The Bengals can look at their coach and pretty clearly say, “this has run it’s course, and it’s time to change.”
With Mangini, I think the possibility that we haven’t seen the best he has to offer still exists, and that should give management pause. It’s interesting that you say Marvin Lewis and John Fox are good coaches. Just by saying that, you are suggesting that they should probably be kept in their jobs.
Good coaches don’t forget how to coach just because they have players that don’t execute or get hurt or fall victim to other unforseen circumstances.
I’d just like to say to DERP that I’m not nearly as much “PRO-Mangini” as I am “ANTI-firing coaches of obviously improving football teams in the second season of a massive and obvious rebuilding job in the wake of a decade of unprecedented organizational turmoil.”
Not sure why I have to keep pointing that out. But, thanks for reading, anyway.
Probably worth a reminder that Humboldt has been flaming for Mangini’s departure since week 3 of last season. Humm, dumm, durr.
Cleveland Frowns, I absolutely agree. Last year, somewhere around when we were 1-11, I was more than ready to clamor for Mangini to be fired. Since then, this team has improved by leaps and bounds since then. Anyone that can’t see that is probably not watching the actual games.
People like to point out that even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally, like the Browns beating the Giants in 2008. Does anybody else remember a single good performance from that season other than that MNF game? I don’t, but I can point to several good performances in this season alone. I’d call that a massive improvement right there.
Humboldt, since when is it a common occurrence for NFL teams to turn it around in a year or two? I can think of two teams that did it, the Dolphins and Falcons. The Dolphins have since reverted to an average team after taking advantage of a weak schedule and Tom Brady’s injury. The Falcons hit the jackpot with a franchise QB and are a legitimately good team. I’m simplifying why these teams turned it around so quickly, but it is certainly not the norm. For every one of them, there are several more that have taken much, much longer. The Lions, Bills, Chiefs, 49ers, Seahawks, Rams, Raiders, Texans, Titans, Bengals, Broncos, Redskins, and even our Browns have recently been mired in multi-year rebuilding projects. Expecting miracles like a 10 win improvement in a year, and then firing coaches every time they don’t walk on water, is ridiculous.
If you Call me Francies…..I’ll kill ya.