Tribe and Tickets – Dropping
December 15, 201012 Days of a Cleveland Christmas- Day 7
December 15, 2010I have been saying for a while that any talk of Mangini and the proverbial “hot seat” is silly. I still feel that way, but it is complex.
Sabrina Parr from WKNR reported this morning that regardless of what Mangini does in his last three games, he is out as head coach. Co-host Chris Fedor then added that the Browns are having difficulty finding a new offensive coordinator because there is a lack of willingness in candidates to work with Mangini.
Now, we have no idea whether this is true or not; I have no idea what confidence level to place on this rumor. But let’s just pretend that it is true for the sake of discussion. It is important to finally get this out there because I haven’t talked a lot about the raging “Mangini debate.” The reason is that the debate has been mostly flawed up to this point. Nobody can seem to figure out what they are really talking about and stay focused. Here are the various camps in the debate.
First there are the people who want to look at what Mangini is doing with the Browns this season to figure out whether he will keep his job or not. They will talk of win totals, statistics and other intangibles about how hard the team is playing. Most of the people in this camp will tell you that the team is markedly improved while still maintaining a considerable talent deficit compared to the teams on their schedule. This is the camp that I am most often in. Notice that I haven’t told you that the Browns should definitely bring Mangini back next year? I am waiting until after the season. Some in this group like Pete from Cleveland Frowns have already conclusively told you that Mangini needs to stay.
Secondly there are the people who want to look at what Mangini is doing on the field, but don’t think it is good enough. These people talk about “magical” win totals that Eric Mangini needs to coax the Browns to in order to keep his job next year. Some of the Browns’ beat reporters even fall into this camp, as if the Browns need to win two out of the last three, or all three, or whatever in order to awash Holmgren in enough pixie dust that he keeps Mangini as his coach. This kind of thinking seems particularly silly to me. Win totals are nice for betting in Vegas, but it is certainly not the only measure of a coach’s capability, and certainly not the way Mike Holmgren judged Mangini a year ago when he let him stick around.
Finally, there are the meta-critics. These are the people who don’t care about what Mangini is doing on the field right now because clearly, in their minds, there are much better options. The confusing thing about these people is that they pretend to be in the second group analyzing game-day goings-on even though they have already made up their mind that no matter what Mangini does on the field, there is someone else out there. Usually that someone else is Jon Gruden. So they get you into the debate about whether Mangini is doing a good job or not, and then in the middle of that debate, they say something like, “Well it doesn’t matter. Jon Gruden is a better option than Mangini anyway.” These people are particularly frustrating because arguments are tough enough without moving targets.
So, what should the Browns do? Well, it is impossible as an outsider for me to say conclusively, but here’s what I am thinking. I think Mangini has done a solid job turning the culture of this team around. I think he has done an exceptional job getting the team to fight even in the face of not making the playoffs. Before today and WKNR’s report, my general stance was that the Browns should keep Mangini around and bring in an experienced, veteran offensive coordinator. Obviously these are fluid situations though.
If Holmgren is trying to do just that, but Mangini’s reputation is keeping him from getting the help on offense that he wants and that the Browns clearly need, then who am I to tell Holmgren to keep Mangini? If Mangini’s reputation truly is hurting Holmgren’s ability to get quality people to work with him, then Mike Holmgren is in a no-win situation too. He will be accused of setting Mangini up to fail if he doesn’t help him get the “best” coaches to be on his staff.
So the real answer is, “I don’t know.” Avoid anyone (like the plague) who claims to know exactly what should happen. There are just too many moving pieces. Ultimately either you trust Mike Holmgren or you don’t. So far, based on the fact that he kept Mangini and company following their season-ending streak a year ago, I have no reason not to trust him to make the right decision at the end of the year.
Know this, though. If Mangini does get fired after this season, don’t bother talking to me about what happened on the field this year. If Mangini gets fired, it is pretty clear to me that it has more to do with either Mike Holmgren’s perceived talent assessment of the incoming coach, or some kind of political situation involving Mangini’s reputation, assuming WKNR’s report is true. If Holmgren truly wants to work with one of his guys as some often claim, then that shouldn’t be a reflection on Eric Mangini so much. The bottom line is that if Mike Holmgren thinks Eric Mangini is hurting the Browns’ ability to infuse organizational talent, he will have to do what he has to do.
Overall though, even if that happens, I won’t consider Mangini’s run as coach with the Browns a failure by any stretch. The one thing the Mangini haters refuse to acknowledge is that there are no guarantees in this world. Jon Gruden is no guarantee. Even if you think he is the better option, you should realize there is always a chance that a Cleveland Browns era with Jon Gruden at the helm could make you miss Eric Mangini.
You never know. Avoid anyone who says they know everything.
94 Comments
Mangini attributed the Buffalo loss to lack of full player effort and his staff’s questionable strategy at times. Losing that way in his double-secret probation year is not the way for any NFL coach to keep their job.
The Bengals are in a free fall and are mailing it in. If the Browns again don’t put forth a full, 4-quarter effort it will speak volumes about whether Mangini is being successful in instilling the qualities he preaches. Even if they do, Holmgren is right to ask: how could any 5-7 team play like it’s superior to anybody?
Re stability, it’s great … if you have the right guy. We would not have been better keeping Romeo or Butch for another 7 years, or Dwight Clark as the personel guy. If Mangini is the wrong guy, the sooner gone the better.
Gotta say I am a litte suprised by all the negative comments. If the article only focused on the rumor from WWKNR would be one thing, but it is briefly mentioned before he gets into the real discussion on the Mangini debate. This wasnt a debate on the comments of WKNR. I wonder if some of the commenters even read the article or just saw WKNR in the headline. As several others have mentioned, I also dont live in Cleveland and dont mind if WFNY reports on what Cleveland stations are saying. And I like that craig quickly steered us into a nice debate on Mangini.
Agree with the article…Although it’s gonna take a LOT more talent on offense for The Browns to win more than they lose—I don’t care who’s coaching
Thanks for your reply, Ammo. You make some good points, but we simply disagree. I’m thrilled that we have Holmgren to give the Browns legitimacy and stability. I’ll support whatever he decides. Go Browns!
I’m going to change the title of all of my Blue Jackets pieces to lead with “WKNR Says…” just to get some people to comment on them.
@tribefan30 Fine, then change the title of the article to something else. Also note that WKNR’s track record of crediblity isn’t very good.
If this report is true.
I would rather fire Mangini and Daboll, since we can’t replace D”Ahole” with a quality OC.
If we can replace D”Ahole”, keep Mangini.
It’s pretty simple.
@55 – Heh. And mentioning Lebron couldn’t hurt.
Sigh.
“Jackets Update: Lebron says WKNR is reporting a rumor about…”
Done and Done.
I’m not known as a Mangini supporter, or for being level-headed. But I think my comment at number 57 is the belief we all should have. Bring in a Holmgren guy as OC, he has to have an apple from his tree out there somewhere looking for a gig. Then if next season we stink and continue to lose leads playing Mangini ball, then you remove Mangini. Either move the Holmgren OC into the head coach position, give the job to Rob Ryan (or risk losing him) or hire Marty Morhinweg.
/I gave rationality a shot…. I hate it. Lol
There are quite a few perspectives on this topic that I find assinine, but this guy Carl has to be near the top. I can’t read one of his posts without getting angry.
Not only do I think you are wrong about almost all of your ideas, but you often use ridiculous logic to try to make your arguments.
You use Bill Belicheck (2000) as an example of how Mangini coaches and declare that this could never win in the NFL. Then IN THE SAME POST, you use Bill Belicheck (current) as an example of how a winning coach does things.
Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?
Is it possible that Belicheck coached “to keep the game close” back when he was trying to establish an organization in his image and knew that he had inferior personnel to some of the top teams in the league? And then once Brady established himself as a top 1-2 QB in the league, and Belicheck had had time to assemble the defensive personnel that he wanted, he then changed strategies to play to his strengths? Sounds like great coaching all around to me. And guess what, the Browns are not the Patriots right now, not even close, and I would be thrilled if they were even up to par with some of Belichecks early Patriots teams. If Mangini is anything like Belicheck, I hope we hang onto him for a long time.
I want to stop short of any personal attacks, because we are all fans here I believe, but man, you seem to be one heckuva know-it-all, yet your comments reveal you to be just another hack who in reality has zero idea of “what it takes to win in the NFL”.
Tommy, ignore him, he posts the same stuff everytime Mangini is mentioned. Just let it go and he’ll go away.
Unless the Browns are total no-shows in the last three games of the season, Holmgren icing Mangini will all but prove that he only kept Magini for a year to take the blame for what he thought would be another miserable season.
Then, in a twist of fate, the season hasn’t been all that miserable. Quite to the contrary, we’ve mostly seen improvement week to week, some big wins, and Mangini seems to have improved on his shortcomings from last year while increasing his strengths. I was a big Mangini hater last year, but I said all along I wanted to see him in JUST the coach’s role to see how he’d do. He has been in just that role post KokinisGate and I’ve gotta say, I’ve mostly been pleased with the results.
Honestly, if Holmgren fires Mangini, I am going to lose a lot of faith in him even though he and Heckert seem to have done pretty well with the draft and roster moves this year [give him a pass on Delhomme – let’s assume Delhomme’s mentoring has played a large part in Colt’s play – which it easily could have]. To me, it would just show that he likely kept Mangini around for selfish personal reasons [i.e., not to look bad in his first year at the helm of a team that obviously needed and still needs a lot of help].
I am another one of those people not in town, so I use this blog to keep my fingers on the pulse of the attitude of the fans up in Cleveland since I have exactly one other person here in Cincy with whom I can wax Brownies. So I like hearing what WKNR is crapping out and then reading the debates that ensue. Good article!
And by the way, going back to the “attitudes of the fans…” some of those attitudes are awfully pessimistic, considering WE ARE BROWNS FANS! Show some optimism and support for the coach who has the most difficult schedule in the NFL, played with a lot of players that should be on practice squads, and turned it into a possible 7-9 season. Add to that the development of a run game that is starting to look like real football, and a passing game in a young rookie, who could easily be the next Drew Brees, and you have a bright future stating you in the face. The draft will come sooner than you realize, and then a 10-6 season will be in you lap and all of this will be moot.
Colt McCoy could easily be the next Drew Brees?
/God, help me, do you see what I have to put up with on a day to day basis.
Like many, I don’t live in Cleveland and love this blog. Some points on what’s been talked about:
Sean reeks of some kind of vendetta. This blog is all about class and getting the information right, and I have NEVER seen glory-hounding from any of the writers. You’re not going to see a “we called it” article on WFNY… it might be time to back off.
I’m totally on board with what Ammo said about Mangini. How can anyone not watch this Browns team every week and not realize that this team is light years better than the teams of the last several years (Carl)? Turnovers on offense are down and turnovers on defense are up. The Browns are +5 this season in turnover ratio (only other year they were on the positive side was in 2008 going back to 2002). The defense is relevant and improved (#10 in total points allowed, #22 in yardage) and there are some good players on offense to build around. I want another year of Mangini and less statements with no facts to back them up.
THE MSU SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM IS ASHAMED!!!!
I’m in the first camp. But if it ends up being true that offensive coordinators are hesitant to work w/ the guy, I find that worrisome and telling.
1. Why can’t Gil Haskell be O-Coordinator?
2. If we fire Mangini, get ready for Marty Mornhinweg or John Fox who is going to be coming off a 1-15 season. YAY FOR MIKE HOLMGRENNNNN!!!!
I’m kind of surprised how many posters don’t live in the Cleveland area.
@NJ:
This is definitely a lifeline to a home and teams that we love.
@ DouginCincy:
The two of you are not alone. I will be at the Ravens game with a buddy from HS who currently lives in the ‘Nati.
On another note, we went to “Paul Brown Stadium”* a few years ago to catch a game. Couldn’t believe the treatment that we received. It was awesome.
[* Actual Paul Brown Stadium located in Massillon.]
Okay, everyone back to uninformed debates on Mangini’s future and deflecting spill-over trolls from cleveland.com.
@70- I suspect a lot of out-of-towners (like me) come here because we can’t get decent Cleveland sports coverage anywhere else.
I live in Detroit and cane get KNR on most days. I am a Cleveland sports fan, but man the radio coverage is incredibly horrible in that city. I have no faith in any “reports” from Sabrina Parr.
@ NJ – yea, and it would be, like, MAD CRAZY if there were an editor the site that lived 400 miles away from Cleveland.
The worst part (from what I hear) is the fact that all articles have to be written and mailed AT LEAST three days before they’re received in (and then transcribed and published on the servers that are located in) Cleveland.
Not that I know anything about that.
I hope Mangini is not replaced with Gruden. I fail to see the evidence of him being such a better choice than Mangini. The only way right now I could see replacing Mangini is if, Clev could get Cowher. I think Cowher is a great coach and fits perfect with the tough aspect of this team. If Cowher is available it is a no brainer to bring him in. If not, Mangini stays, and I think this team is in the playoffs next year, or at least has a winning season.
“There are quite a few perspectives on this topic that I find assinine, but this guy Carl has to be near the top. I can’t read one of his posts without getting angry.
Not only do I think you are wrong about almost all of your ideas, but you often use ridiculous logic to try to make your arguments.”
Tommy,
Let me make this simple for you…..
Bill Belichick is successful long-term because he changes with the times, usually in sync with the rule changes (which have been changed thje last 5-6 years to favor passing and wide-open offenses).
Romeo and Mangini have tried to run the offense Belichick ran in 2000. The fact is that belichick saw the rule changes, acquired Randy Moss, and had his offensive assistant – Josh Mcdaniel – come up with a different offense. Like Romeo and Mangini di, Mcdaniel went to his head coaching job trying to run what he did with Belichick – in this case 2005 not 2000 – and it didn’t work because the NFL has adjusted to that. But Belichick has rebuilt his team the last 2 years, and the offense they now run has changed from the one McDaniel came up with.
This too is why Paul Brown was so good for so long – he adjusted what the Browns were doing when teams and rule changes deemed his past offenses and defenses to be outmoded. In fact, it was paul Brown in Cincinnati that asked his offensive coordinator – Bill Walsh – to come up with a passing controlled offense for his QB Carter to use. The was the beginning of what is now called the “West Coast Offense” – and what goes around comes around – Mike Holmgren, show has used the West Coast Offense his entire 25 year NFL career is now running the Cleveland Browns.
I hope it’s false and I hope Mangini stays. Terry Pluto said before the season that the Browns will be improved but that it may not show in wins and losses; I think that is exactly what we’re seeing. The Browns, who really do lack overall talent, have been more pretty competitive with one of the hardest schedules in the NFL.
The Browns are a much better team than they were when Mangini got there, but this is still a team that is learning how to win (how many blown 4th quarter leads? And for the first time in a long while, teams around the NFL actually have respect for the Browns. The have a ways to go, but Manigni has made undeniable progress with this franchise.
I was the author of post #34. A quick follow up to Craig’s response to my critique:
If you want to report the rumor, I think a more appropriate title is: “Mangini likely to be fired at end of season, according to WKNR sources.” This is still a dramatic title given the strength of the “sources,” but at least its accurate. The current title is literally untrue, as it implies that Mangini was fired today – the phrase “Mangini Done” is written in the PAST tense, and, thus, implies he was already fired. To me, that language is sensational and designed simply for page views.
One other comment: To be clear, I like the analysis in this post. I just feel that the headline is completely misleading. It is not supported by any of the discussion that follows.
I live in TN and can find more info on the Browns and Indians here than in the on-line Plain Dealer. I also enjoy some of the comments from responders.
Following the games on-line, this year is way more interesting that the last two years. Outside of Cribbs (who is hurt),there are no game breakers, but they are in almost every game. Give Mangini another year. At least we are on the edge of our seats at the end of games instead of the wife talking us into going to the mall at halftime.
Today in response to Glazer reporting on Foxsports that Mangini is gone after the season, Michael Reghi on WKNR said this was no big deal, everyone in the NFL knew that Holmgren would not be able to get along with Mangini’s offense.
Reghi then went on to call Mangini’s offense antiquated, out of date, and a ball-and-chain to the QB.
I thought he was being nice.
When are you kids going to get it? The reason the receivers can’t “get open” is because the offense is so simplistic that NFL DB’s can cover them one-on-one and shut them down. The QB’s have to run for their lives and for two years you’ve seen all Browns QB’s get hurt literally every week.
And I especially feel for Jake Delhomme. When this guy came here he was being told that he would be running an offense with a lot of the elements of the West Coast offense (which he had run for years at Carolina). And on the first possession against the Packers in the first exhibition game he did just that – marching the Browns straight down the field for a TD. But little-by-little Mangini/Daboll went back to this neanderthal offense that inhibits receivers and QB’s. Now Jake is in a no-win position with the fans blaming him.
So you think Colt McCoy is going gangbusters? Look at the stats and look at exactly how many points he’s actually put up. It’s not terribly impressive compared to other NFL QB’s. And after his last start even McCoy let it slip in the post-game press conference that he wished the coaches had sent in better plays.
This silly notion that all the Browns need is a WR to stretch the field is bunk. Like Mangini would allow his QB to throw long.
Look, Mangini drafted 2 WR’s in the high 2nd round. He acquired a slot receiver on waivers (Moore…who the Browns don’t throw to), and another possession receiver in Stuckey. he worked with Cribbs who never goes runs more than 12-15 yards downfield for a pass.
If Mangini wanted a receiver to stretch the field he’d have asked Holmgren/Heckert for one this past off-season.
Mangini/Daboll run and offense on training wheels. And Cleveland fans have picked up the mentality – “oh, the QB threw an interception, get him off the roster”!
Along with Romeo – before Savage forced an OC on him in 2007 – this is the worst excuse I’ve seen for an NFL offense in over 50 years of watching NFL football. It’s as sophisticated as a tinker toy, not state-of-the-art. Defenses around the NFL don’t even take the Browns seriously. The reason every year teams like the Saints, Pats, WC Giants in 2009 against Romeo, and other good teams can get beat, is because the players don’t even get up for the games against the Brown when they see the films.
It is amazing that some here actually think the Browns are right on the tail of the Ravens and Steelers.
Thank heavens that the Browns finally hired an experienced NFL guy – Mike Holmgren. This is just awful football to have to watch.
Tommy, I couldn’t agree more with everything you said. Great work! I was trying to organize how I meant to reply to some arguments, when you put every idea I had out there in a much better way than I could’ve.
I’m a little surprised nobody called out Carl on his interpretation of the Mike Adams interception. Maybe it’s minor, but he was playing man, his man stayed in to block, and Adans was then free to do whatever he could to help. It might not be a major point, but I think it’s indicative of how Carl argues. /feeding of the trolls
I’m also in support of how Craig wrote this article. Honest, solid work. One of the reasons I come here on a daily basis. I’m currently in Columbus, and I also use this site to stay current on Cleveland sports. Thanks!!
“How can anyone not watch this Browns team every week and not realize that this team is light years better than the teams of the last several years (Carl)?”
_______
Vengeful Pat,
I’ve watched browns football since 1956.
I read and talked to people that saw the game before then.
You are telling me that the browns are “improved” from the last year or Romeo and first year of Mangini, and so everything is going swimmingly?
Those were the 2 worst teams in the 64 year history of the Cleveland Browns!
And you’re happy?
How low a standard you kids have.
The Browns have won 4 playoff games since 1974. That’s right – 4 playoff games in the last 36 years. Apparently 4 more in the next 36 years will satisfy you.
“I’m a little surprised nobody called out Carl on his interpretation of the Mike Adams interception. Maybe it’s minor, but he was playing man, his man stayed in to block, and Adans was then free to do whatever he could to help.”
_____
Jason M,
You and Tommy still can’t see the forest from the trees.
The Browns should have beat that crappy Miami team by at least 14 points.
Instead they played it close to the vest waiting for a miracle in the 4th quarter. They got one when a QB as bad as Brady Quinn threw a pass off his own lineman that deflected to a Browns player.
You think this was planned?
You think this is the way playoff and championship teams win games?
Trust me when I say that Mike Holmgren, Gil Haskell and other professional, successful, winning people that have been brought into this organization the past year are appalled that a team is being run like this. And they know darn well that you don’t begin to win with any consistency in the NFL with a defeatist attitude like this.
You win BY TAKING IT TO THE OTHER TEAM AND BEATING THEM! Not by hoping for a miracle in the last 2 minutes.
You can beat te4h Miami’s like that. You don’t beat the good teams like the Steelers, Ravens, etc. in the stretch run and the playoffs. Good teams don’t beat themselves. And you have to beat good teams to be successful.
But apparently you guys are thrilled with your team being 5-8, so I guess you guys told me!
If any of you guys read Dawgs By Nature, this guy reminds me of mooncamping… Also, I don’t listen to Cleveland radio anymore, but I though Reghi was pretty much seen as a hack. Hence, he’s on WKNR.
Since I can never resist feeding the trolls, Carl do you actually watch football? We’ve thrown deep to Massaquoi quite a few times, and Cribbs as well when he was healthy. Remember their long TD catches?
As far as offensive talent, in our last draft we clearly focused on defense with our high picks. Not every team is going to improve by 10 wins in a year like the Dolphins did. That’s an unrealistic expectation. Look at what Singletary and Schwartz have done in their first couple of years. Mangini has improved our team more than those teams have improved under their new coaches. Give the guy a fair chance to build his team, then decide. 2 seasons isn’t a fair shot for anybody.
Hahahahahahaha…. Last time I checked the Browns are nowhere near the caliber of a championship team. Carl, you yourself pointed out that playing conservativley is exactly how Belichick used to play. He was given a chance to build his roster, and now he fields winning teams.
Also, we beat that crappy Miami team that also just beat the Jets, who are a playoff caliber team…
I don’t believe any sources from the Rizzo show. I take it for what is, a comedy show. At times it is a very bad one, but comedy show regardless.
I want Mangini to stay because I like him. However, Daboll needs to go, and if no decent OC wants to work with Mangini well… that’s a problem.
I’m not the first to say this, but I really want to hear someone name some names as to who said they won’t work with Mangini. It sounds to me like another rumor. If it’s true, I want solid, concrete proof or I don’t believe it.
Carl, you’re killin’ me, man.
Last year, the Browns were very lucky to win 5 games. They were an absolute doormat for the first 12 games of the year. They got blown out routinely. It got to the point I wouldn’t even watch or check the score because I was tired of seeing 17-0 at halftime and worse after that.
This year, they have been really competitive with not much more talent. Spare me the Belicheck 2000 nonsense. They evolved from a team that was extremely good on defense with a decent offense to a team that was less good on defense and much better on offense. They also developed a HoF caliber QB, and had a TON of talent on D during the start of that run. We don’t have a Willie McGinest, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour type player in the front seven. That’s really all there is to it–teams change over time.
Football is not so easy that anyone can CHOOSE to win by 3 or CHOOSE to win by 14. It’s not a video game. The same Dolphins team you claim the Browns should have beat by 14 (on the road no less) just manhandled a 9-3 Jets team last week.
I was sick of the Browns getting blown out last year. They haven’t been blown out at all this year. This is not 2008 where they blew out the Giants and then took a nap the rest of the year. This team (with the exception of second half of last week) is not nearly playing down to that level. They have been in a ton of competitive games, mostly against top level teams. You could argue the Browns probably have only had the talent edge in 3 games so far this year (CIN, BUF, CAR), and they’ve won 5 overall and been very close to 3 or 4 more. I’m still OK with that. When the talent is there to win 9 games, and they win 5–then you fire the coach. This team is overachieving imo.
FWIW, last year Rizzo and WKNR reported that Holmgren was firing Mangini the week leading up to Mike’s decision… where he obviously announced he was keeping Mangini.
@Carl, you addressed nothing that I wrote and only pointed out the fact that you’ve been watching Browns games for a long time. I’m sure there are parrots in homes around the Cleveland area who could say the same thing. With the talent we have on our team, you’re not going to see the team jump from 5 wins to 14 wins. It’s just not going to happen. Improvement is good, and this team is certainly improving under Mangini versus not just last year as you said, but over the past several years. It’s definitely not time to freak out and fire the coach and bring in a new coach with a new system… that’s only going to set the team back further as the Browns adjust to add players who fit the new system. I may have only been watching the Browns since 1985 (when I moved to the Cleveland area at 5 years old), but that’s PLENTY of time to make a rational argument. I suggest you do the same… using statistics rather than a gut feeling.
Wow. Glad Carl found a new place for his “free expression.” Good luck with this one, guys.
Browns gave away too many games this season. Lots of adversity and a tough schedule. It took Holmgren 4 years at GB and 4 years at Seattle to right the ship. Now he won’t give another coach the same benefit. Mangini had his faults but they were simple fixes such as clock management, etc.. Browns have a history of no continuity with coaches and Holmgren just perpetuated it. No coach can stop a train or turn a ship around on a dime unless the pieces are already in place. The sooner the browns get rid of the cry baby mindset like Rodgers the better.