Tribe Looking to Deal With Royals?
October 27, 2008A Fair Question…
October 27, 2008As Donte Stallworth flipped the freshly-caught touchdown pass over his shoulder, my friend Lars and I both had similar responses. We were obviously happy that the Browns had scored, but the deeper feelings were a little different. I finally pulled out my phone, and summed it up with a text message to Scott: “Groundhog just saw his shadow – six more weeks of DA.”
Let me see if I can explain: I’ve long been an advocate for putting Quinn in, if for no other reason than the season seems (seemed?) to be slipping away, and it is/was thus time to find out if Quinn has a longer-term future with this team as a QB. I termed the Giants game a “stay of execution” for DA. He promptly went out against the Redskins and just KILLED [rim shot!] the Browns’ chances in that game. Because of that, one would think that he then had a short, short leash against the Jaguars.
And then something happened. Stop me if you’ve heard this before: Anderson played a pretty good first half. The offense looked semi-competent. They punched in two touchdowns to take a halftime lead, and took some pressure off of their defense. Anderson wasn’t turning the ball over, his throws were in the same zip code as his receivers, and the play-calling was maximizing his effectiveness. The bomb to Edwards. The 4th-and-Heiden (h/t jraster) pitch and catch. The throw to Stallworth in the end zone. The crossing route to Steptoe in the 4th quarter. Where did this guy come from?
More importantly, can we plan on seeing him again? Is he going to continue to do just enough to ensure that Romeo won’t bench him anytime soon? Just when I’m about to write him off completely, he goes out and throws up a 95.6 rating (or, in the case of the Giants game, a 121.3 rating) and helps the Browns to a much-needed win. Cue the shots of Brady Quinn on the sidelines with the earphone in and the clipboard.
Of course, there’s another wrinkle to all of this: Anderson’s two good games coincided with one other criterium: the absence of Kellen Winslow in the lineup. As Kevin Boss scored the winning touchdown for the Giants, I had to wonder… is Kellen Winslow (rightly or wrongly painted so) the 2008 version of Jeremy Shockey? Look how much better Eli Manning has played since Shockey broke his leg and subsequently never played another down for the Giants. They’ve lost only twice since then (one an essentially meaningless game in week 17 against the undefeated Pats, and ironically the other to DA and the Browns two Mondays ago).
We all know how “emotional” and “competitive” and “fiery” Winslow is. We all know how talented he is. We all know that he works harder than just about any other player on the Browns team, and pound-for-pound might be the most talented player on the team. That said, in the five games DA has played WITH Winslow this season, his numbers are:
72-154, 679 yards, 4 TD, 6 INT – 51.84 rating
Without Winslow, his numbers are:
32-56, 556 yards, 3 TD, 0 INT – 108.93 rating
The numbers never lie. But, what does all of this mean?? Is it really Winslow? Or, is it just a coincidence, and is it really that when DA’s back is against the wall (job-security-wise, anyway) he plays just well enough to buy himself some more time, a la Peter Gibbons’ “that’ll make someone work just hard enough not to get fired”? Can we extrapolate from the numbers above that the return of Winslow will sink DA’s performance? More importantly, much like Groundhog Day, can we as fans safely assume that we know what’s coming the next few games, and prepare ourselves?
Could we start Ned Ryerson at QB??
I’ve been notably silent on the Winslow situation, mainly for two reasons:
1) it’s just draining. It’s the same old story for the Browns. They’re so busy shooting themselves in both feet to ever take a step forward in a year in which their team shows flashes of being good enough of being able to compete in a WIDE OPEN AFC. It’s like watching the presidential campaign when people are talking about who “pals around” with whom, and who spent a bunch of money on clothes, all while I watch my 401(k) evaporate. Seriously.
2) I can’t really decide for myself who’s “right” and who’s “wrong”. I just don’t care. I would hate to see a player like Winslow run out of town by the fans for caring about it when the team isn’t playing well. That said, I don’t want to root for a team whose front office hangs its players out to dry, either.
All of that having been said, the Giants played better on offense after losing Shockey last season, and have continued to do so. Likewise, the numbers have shown that Anderson has played better this season without Winslow. We obviously don’t have a very big sample size here, and we obviously don’t know what’s going on and being said (or, not being said) in the huddles either.
So, WFNY readers: is it Winslow? Is it just Anderson? More importantly, much like Phil Connors, are we doomed now to repeat the same cycle over and over again, wherein DA stinks up the joint in enough games to kill any playoff hopes, only then to rally just enough each time that his rope is at its proverbial end to convince Romeo to stick with him through the rest of the season?
35 Comments
Football aside, those are some serious photoshop skills you got!
That’s why you guys pay me the big dollars! 😉
Love the Ned Ryerson reset
…got the shingles really bad senior year, almost didn’t graduate…
…I dated your sister Mary Pat a couple of times until you told me not to…
I’ll be the first to bite, yes, I’m a fan of fiery SGT Winslow as anyone, but like you said the numbers don’t lie. I think they saw this coming as well, Martin Rucker anyone? Sadly the trade deadline has come and gone, but Winslow is a lot more talented then Shockey and could get us a nice draft package from some team, like say the Dolphins? His personality and skill set should interest Al Davis at the least.
It actually might be refreshing to have more then the normal amount of draft picks next year and not less.
The true sign will be next week against the Ravens. If KW2 plays and DA goes back to playing like a Kentucky QB then it may be time to start looking at other options for next season.
The Ned Ryerson drop still has me lauging out loud… fantastic.
To the extent Winslow’s presence is altering DA’s performance, that’s just another reason why DA is too fragile to be a successful NFL QB.
That said, DA is clearly more comfortable with Heiden on the field. So why take Heiden out when Winslow is there? Don’t we have 2 TE sets we can run on a regular basis to take advantage of Heiden’s strengths (run blocking and short passes) and Winslow’s strengths (catching the ball downfield)?
K2’s absence in 2 of the last 3 weeks has simply proven to me that Heiden is a very good player. He should be on the field nearly every down. Notwithstanding Steptoe’s 53 yard catch and run that put the Browns in position to win, I’d much rather have Heiden out there even on 3rd down passing situations than Steptoe.
Two good games for DA without Winslow is enough to make you wonder, but not enough to be sure. It’s very possible that DA/Winslow is like Eli/Shockey.
Then again, I wonder what kind of numbers Brady Quinn would put up with Winslow.
Sadly I don’t think we’ll find the true answer to your question until next year when DA (hopefully) and Winslow (probably) are both playing for other teams.
Just wondering:
Maybe Winslow needs that extra receiver (Joe J) to be successful? It takes a little bit more focus off him and leads him to more open routes underneath?
I could be totally wrong here, but after Braylon and more recently Stallworth, teams have been able to key in on Sarge as pretty much our 2nd receiver. Maybe it has more to do with his role in the offense, not just his abilities.
Just a quick thought, in both games with Heiden instead of Winslow, it seemed like Lewis had a better time finding holes and the running game was pretty productive. Is there is possibility that Heiden is a far superior blocker than Winslow and that its this extra protection, combined with a better run game that takes the pressure off of DA and in turn makes him more productive?
just remember to aim high, I don’t want anything to happen to the gopher!
You got it Eli!
Maybe we try Winslow in the slot. Heiden is a meaningfully better blocker and you can see it just by watching Lewis’ runs and DA’s time in the pocket yesterday. I say we try Winslow in the slot, have him run some routes over the middle and down the field, let Heiden take care of the blocking and short routes.
BING!
I’d like to bring the spotlight back to DA here…He is terrible against good Defenses! Look at last year’s games against good Ds. BAD. Look at this year’s games against good Ds….WORSE! Jax is NOT a good D….they are average, but nowhere near good.
I would say that The Giants game was a “trap” game for them, they underestimated the Browns, and the O-line blocked their butts off. Anderson and Edwards felt the pressure of the spotlight and stepped up.
I think he’s bound to fall on his face when playing more good Defenses. The problem is, will he string enough of those bad games together to warrant a switch?
Or will he drop in a good game against an average D like Denver or Indy or bad Defenses like Cincy?
by the way – the 4th and 1 call was the best call all year – Chud for president.
Derek Anderson’s numbers last year….WITH KELLEN WINSLOW:
298-527, 3787 yards, 29 TDs, 19 INT.
Winslow:
82 recs, 1106 yards, 5 TDs.
We can play around with numbers all we want. But Jamal Lewis ran for 1304 yards and 9 TDs with Winslow and his supposedly “atrocious” blocking last year. People have such short memories when it comes to sports, and people love to displace blame. Perhaps, as Josh pointed out, we should be focusing our blame on DA. Anderson did not have a great game yesterday, and I would argue he barely had a good game. His completion % was still at 50%, and he had one INT called back and another Pick-6 narrowly missed in the endzone on the 2nd down play. On the 3rd down pass in the 4th quarter, he threw a grounder that bounced 3 feet in front of his target. Perhaps the truth that nobody seems to want to embrace is that Derek Anderson is just an inconsistent QB who, while capable of every now and then having a great game, will more times than not have a mediocre or worse game. Everyone loves to say no one player is bigger than the team, well, then no one player can so drastically effect a QB’s accuracy to other players. This just is not Winslow’s fault that the Browns are playing poorly this year.
I made the “Office Space” joke to someone today…if DA misses a practice for a meeting with the Bobs, then we have problems.
Here’s the way I look at it – does 10-6 make the playoffs in the AFC this year? There’s probably going to be a 10-6 team on the bubble again, and the only upside is that Cleveland now owns a wildcard tiebreaker over the Jags.
(Wait…playoffs? I’m talking playoffs?)
I’m looking at this schedule and I can’t see this team only losing 2 games in the next 5, let alone 2 games in the rest of the season. So someone needs to give DA some proper motivation other than “play just hard enough not to get benched.” As far as I’m concerned, the microsecond this team hits it’s 6th loss (which could come in the next two weeks – Baltimore and Denver within 5 days of each other is tough, even if it is at home), DA is benched and shouldn’t see another snap unless Quinn gets hurt or turns into the second coming of Couch. The conversation should go something like this…
“Derek, you’ve shown some flashes of better than averageness, and some streaks of suckiness. You know we’ve got a golden boy here ready to take your job, at least 50% of the fan base ready to take it, and a coaching staff that’s desperate to at least get some sort of value for you. So here’s the deal – the job is your’s until we hit 6 losses. So you want to play the rest of the season, then win. Otherwise, it’s time to look to the future.”
If that’s not motivation, I don’t know what is. 😉
If you can’t tell, put me in the category that the problem is much more an inconsistent DA than a primadonna Winslow.
Rock is right. Last year Jamal Lewis did have great rushing numbers with Winslow on the field. Although, last year’s offensive line was better than this year’s offensive line too. Tucker at RG with Shaffer playing RT is a monster. The right side of the offensive line has probably reared its ugly head for DA this year and contributed to some of his struggles. There are a lot of factors that go into this whole thing.
And that’s the thing as far as I am concerned. I won’t say anything definitively because I can’t possibly know for sure. All I have ever stated is that it is possible that Winslow is acting as a negative force on this team this year. When things aren’t going well, I don’t expect K2 to be a stabilizing force. Sorry, I just don’t. That can’t diminish what he did last season when the entire team was a feel-good story. But not everything is equal from season to season and all we have to go on is what we know since the beginning of this year.
Also, that pick that DA threw was clearly a free play. Far be it from me to give DA the benefit of the doubt on ANYTHING, but I think everyone on the field knew that that was a free play and hopefully DA was forcing a play that he normally shouldn’t force as a result.
To be clear, I honestly don’t think it’s Winlsow. I’ve always thought it’s DA. But, those numbers are interesting, even if it’s totally a coincidence.
I think ClemJax hit the nail on the head…
The leash gets shorter every loss. However, they should NOT wait until eliminated from playoff contention – they might hang around all year on the fringes.
What happens if we stumble thru the season without ever getting Quinn in the game?! miss the playoffs…or lose in the first round…
do we do the same dance next year with BQ vs. DA?
I’m not trying to say that Winslow is a bad player, I certainly picked him as a fantasy TE last year (starter) and this year (backup behind Gonzalez). I’m just calling it like I’ve seen it this year. We’re nearly halfway through the season and 66% of our wins come while K2 is out. We also beat 1 very good and 1 decent team with him out. Heiden has put up good numbers in the two games he has played more of a role.
Maybe these games are anomalies, and the key factor is DA going into panic mode and playing like crazy to keep his job. Maybe its the whole team stepping up in the next game after bad losses.
2 games is certainly not enough to make a firm decision about changing the team. That’s how franchises ruin themselves. But its certainly time to start identifying trends that should be looked for in the games to come.
If there is a problem with Kellen disrupting the huddle or somehow throwing off the offense shouldn’t we blame Romeo? Isn’t the coach the one who is supposed to handle these situations and manage the team.
I agree with Rock. I don’t love K2, but to say the team is better off without him is just stupid. The team is better off without a QB that can’t find any kind of consistency in his game. It’s better off without DA period. The opposing defense always has to worry about K2, it’s not K2’s fault if his offensive coordinator and QB can’t figure out a way to advantage of the mismatches he creates.
Heiden is playing well right now which should be a bonus for the offense. Put K2 in the slot and throw him some slants. Show the same look and release Heiden down field with the Lewis picking up his man. We have the personnel at every position now to make this offense purr. That is with the exception of a good QB that won’t lose his nerve and the game.
DA plays well only when the O-line blocks well.
Heiden is a better blocker than Winslow.
I agree with CDBucks – put Winslow in the slot with Heiden blocking.
What’s funny, too, is this: let’s suppose there IS some truth that DA can’t handle K2’s ultra-competitiveness and his intense desire to win. And let’s suppose it IS true that the Browns coaches don’t know how to properly take advantage of K2’s mismatches and ability to get open across the middle on 3rd down. Let’s assume those are true. Well, then why oh why do we want to get rid of K2 and not DA and RAC? Lets not take it out on the player who has competitive fire and wants to win….lets get rid of the guys who can’t handle that. Just more of my 2 cents, which has probably added up to about $1,300 by now! 🙂
I’ll loan you a couple of $$ Rock, if you have more wisdom to unload.
With all that money Rock you could probably buy yourself a date with K2 and finally consummate your relationship with him!
it seems to me that the k2 issue is a lot bigger than k2 himself….
some good points have been made, but i dont believe ive seen anyone discuss chuds playcalling… in my opinion chud has been much more creative and dynamic calling plays in winslows absence… perhaps he relies on him a bit too much when he is available? these 2 were the only two games where i enjoyed watching the offense… i give d.a. a pass on fifty percent of his poor play this season, based solely on poor, predictable playcalling…
winslow is not really built to be a full time slot reciever… he creates mismatches against LB’s… not so much against nickels and safeties… not saying he can’t be effective there, just think moving him there permanently minimizes, rather than maximizes, his value… for a te, he is fast and agile, for a wr, he’s a bit bulky and slow…
agree that they should experiment more w/ two TE sets… they should just experiment more, in general.
Let’s not sugar coat it… after the first touchdown I believe my (ok i’m sugarcoating it somewhat to keep it family friendly) comment was, “oh [crap] now we’re going to be stuck with him again” followed by, “I wonder if the Jaguars are just letting him have a good half so we won’t switch QBs and end up getting shut down in the 2nd half.” Well, what happened in the 2nd half? One good pass to Steptoe who turned it into far more?
It is purely coincidence. When Winslow was in for the Washington game, Anderson couldn’t the broad side of a barn.
He is like Jekyll and Hyde. We are just lucky he figuratively shows up when our best player literally cant.
@Rock: On the called back interception. Do you really think Anderson would have thrown such a risky pass if he didn’t have a free play?
The one thing I learned from this experience is: never rely on a rhythm Quarterback
Wait and see how Kellen plays w/ Brady before we make a decision on him. BQ is going to be the QB next season, so see how he plays with K2 before determining he hurts our offense. Brady doesn’t throw deep as much, so a good catching TE would benefit him more than DA.
@whipjacka: honestly, I do. I’ve seen DA make so many stupid decisions and try to force so many throws, that I do think he would try to make that throw regardless. But that’s really such a minute point. Even taking away that one throw I think DA was mediocre at best.
I don’t think Winslow has anything to do with DA’s performances…nor does Heiden, or formations, or anthying else we can think of. There’s only one word that sums up DA’s problem….I-N-C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-C-Y. Hey, all professional athletes suffer from it, but most not to the degree he does.
Trying to figure out the “whys” is futile. The fact of the matter is that he misses wide open receivers or throws into coverage way too often, only to have a terrific outing the next series or next game. Bottom line, we can look forward to him having up and down games as surely as we will see the Dow behave similarly.
Given that,I wanna see what BQ has…I don’t think we have much to lose.
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